Try out our new iPhone application!
Manga is the Japanese equivalent of comics
with a unique style and following. Join the revolution! Read some manga today!
Coded in ConTEXT
Join #baka-updates @irc.irchighway.net
|The Lolicon Shotacon Debate
|I'm sure everyone has heard about the debate raging in the wild about Lolicon and Shotacon titles recently. If not, there is some good information here and here to bring yourselves up to speed. We still don't know why we were targeted, or why we were banned from Adsense, but we're now operating under the assumption that it is related to the Lolicon/Shotacon controversy. There's nothing we can do about this, and we ask everyone not to blame Google. They are a business, and they have to look out for their interests first and foremost.
How exactly do I feel about this situation? The best word to sum it up would be 'conflicted'. I'm no fan of Lolicon or Shotacon. I don't think they serve any ultimate benefit to anyone whatsoever. However, I also do not believe that anyone has any business outlawing a simple drawing on a piece of paper. I cannot comprehend what possible crime anyone is committing simply by the act of perception--by looking at a fictional representation. It seems no less poignant to me than the debate about South Park's "201". Regardless, this discussion transcends myself. What remains is how we deal with reality.
Let me reiterate to everyone that MangaUpdates does not host manga. We have never and will never host manga on our servers. Our primary goal as a website is to provide information. In fact, we encourage you to buy series that you enjoy, and help out the industry. However, as part of our legacy services, we do provide links to third party websites (when provided by our users) which host unlicensed manga scanlations. This is what I would like to discuss with you today.
With pressure on Japan to tighten its laws on Lolicon and Shotacon, and many other countries including the US blocking the content as illegal, we are faced with increasing pressure and limited options. One, we can do nothing, and risk possible intervention down the line; two, we can remove all links to third parties related to Shotacon or Lolicon; or three, we can remove all content, including series and releases related to these genres. I have created a poll, and I do hope that everyone will participate in making their feelings known.
It seems quite often that after reaching a certain population size, websites will typically find their paths becoming more and more intertwined with that of the prevalent social norms of the time. I know that many of you may not have second thoughts about something as controversial as our topic today, but I ask that you not forget it.
Visit our Genres page for definitions of these genres.
|Posted by Manick on April 25th 2:48am
With the second option, are we talking about the group sites or links to mediafire where it is?
At this point, we hope to remove download links only, but it could apply to both in the future... It depends on our circumstances.
Well lets say you are forced to remove the links to Yaoi/Loli/Shota scanlation groups, however, this doesn't mean their names will be removed right? because with the Name of the group and some skills, you can easily find their sites without the need of a direct link...
If that is the case, then lets do that...
I mean, I have no problem as long as the group name and a new chapter has been released appear in the Releases page.
i'm fine with this. though i'd propose an option, should it be possible: rather than a link to their site, a URL to simply copy and paste. otherwise, group's name and some googling will do.
not a fan of loli/shota, but i'm more in fear of series that gets caught in the crossfire all because of a page or two that aren't even heavily explicit.
MU is hosted in the US, correct? Legally, there would be no reason to remove anything, although direct download links are... awkward - grey area. And bully for the freedom of "speech" which currently allows for anyone to say/film/print anything which does not injure or untruthfully defame anyone. Yes, yes, unless you've based your loli-/shotacon images on actual people who may be materially damaged by such images you are not actually doing any harm. If some form of expression is not to one's taste, one need only ignore it - change the channel, read a different book, crawl to a different thread on the web. The freedom to express is countered by the freedom to ignore. If you don't want children to be exposed to certain things, make sure they are well supervised. [As for the cover images, though tedious, you could simply get permission to host them, and leave blank anything without explicit permission in order to avoid any other potential legal issues (copyright, etc.).]
The real problem is funding, yes? Obviously a site as large as MU is expensive to maintain, and currently you are funded via advertising. If there is no advertiser willing to work with you under current conditions, you have three options: 1) compromise - find someone who is willing to work with you at all, and remove the material they find objectionable; 2) get user funding - encourage the site-goers who wish to maintain the information unexpurgated to keep the site going; 3) close down, as no change whatsoever is not going to answer the financial dilemma.
Personally, I think option 3 is no good, so come pay day, I'm making my own meager contribution to option 2. For the rest, user-funding is generally unpredictable while bills and taxes are fairly constant, so option 2 is risky, but not without rewards. It can work. Some high-traffic communities operate on (or mostly on) donations, generally with a little counter somewhere on the page to let users know how close the site is to its monthly financial goal. On the other hand, ads are likely much easier to employ, and certainly much more predictable funding.
If you feel this is a political assault on MU, determine exactly what your political convictions are, and stick to them. If you think this is just a financial issue, then you're going to have to find the funds somewhere. Probably, it will be both, and you'll have to do what everyone does - the best they can to get by. I hope you'll be able to maintain at least the current level of information, making it much easier to determine which titles are likely to suit our various personal tastes without having to trawl through every title, gold or garbage, in order to find what we want (frankly, I'd like to avoid any sports comic based around cricket or foosball).
Problem with loli-shota is that there was a law passed a couple of years ago that actually does make it illegal for "virtual" child pornography in the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_Act_of_2003
So saying that it's just a matter of the models' consent isn't true, because maybe even putting cover images that give a teaser of the "action" in the manga might get MU smacked down in even more serious manners than losing revenue from advertising. I think I remember one guy from Texas or Arizona who got arrested because of that law for ordering manga from Japan with some pretty explicit stuff, mainly because some of the characters looked like minors. The man was judged guilty the first time and I think he was trying to appeal it, but I don't remember what the outcome was.
While I do believe that there is a lot of really, really messed up loli-shota out there, and to some extent I can't quite understand the appeal... I feel like attempting to cut it down is bad because you're essentially repressing a form of art. Not to mention that it's so liable to abuse, i.e. mangafox getting rid of Kaichou wa Maid-sama due to pressure from advertisers. If you say loli and shota is not allowed because it contains minors having sex, what is to stop you from banning, say, shoujo where the couples have sex and are obviously in high school? Not to mention that while a situation like lolicon or shotacon actually shouldn't happen in real life, and rarely (thankfully?) does, a good percentage of kids in high school not only have sex but are interested in having it. Forcing artists to not depict that aspect of reality is repressing freedom of expression...
So yeah, the law is really messed up. Hopefully, hopefully, the bits about virtual representation might get repealed, but until then MU should try to stick to the safe side of the fence and be careful about download links and cover images... Hopefully the situation won't get worse! ;_;
Protect Act does NOT ban Shota/Loli. From the article:Prohibits drawings, sculptures, and pictures of such drawings and sculptures depicting minors in actions or situations that meet the Miller test of being obscene, OR are engaged in sex acts that are deemed to meet the same obscene condition. The law does not explicitly state that images of fictional beings who appear to be under 18 engaged in sexual acts that are not deemed to be obscene are rendered illegal in and of their own condition (illustration of sex of fictional minors).
More details here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_po rnography_depicting_minors#United_States
Loli and Shota is legal in the US. There's a concentrated effort by a few fundies to go after Manga and Anime loli and shota (corresponding with a UK feminist crusade against H-games in general) but they all remain legal -- for now.
hi! er so for the lolishoter, you've decided to not have a page for them ? - for the past few days, those series - only the name of the manga/dj and scanlating group turns up - not link to a page.
is google ok with that
i hope they still support MU and help you guys keep up the great work. this is a fantastic resource!
Now I see it as Lolicon/Shotacon itself it not the issue here, it the combo with another genre that cause the issue. I consider MU nothing more the than a very extreme wiki page. Allowing for people to track information and help update it.
Inevitably, the argument will be brought down to what is and isn't considered loli/shota-con.
I myself, don't read any of it myself, but removing the genres and series information, may be unnecessary, and will probably remove several miscategorized and well liked series.
You should be able to remove the third party links alone and still argue to be a database website.
Anyway, good luck to us all.
Technically loli and shota can be anything where the characters are under 18. And that's why I say don't do anything at all. Give them an inch and they'll try to take a mile. If you start bending over, the next thing you know you'll be head over heels and on your back.
Exactly. So your favorite teenage hero sees a tit, and all of a sudden your manga gets yanked.
Seriously, if they completely take this, we'll soon be left with nothing but a few shojo and mecha titles.
This site would eventually cease to exist.
And then once they get it off the internet, forget about buying them in stores, at least not without extra heavy censorship (more so than now). That's where we'll be hit next. It's what they've wanted to do forever and now their finally getting their chance.
Most definitely, we should hold our ground. Within reason of course. While heavily explicit stuff of this nature isn't good and I agree we should remove third party links to such material, we shouldn't be forced to remove all mention of it from existence. It's not only against our rights, but those of the respective authors/artists.
I agree entirely, if it comes to pass the third party links or even genres and sieries information have to removed and there is nothing to be done about it, well... there would be nothing anyone could do about it, but until then, and it may not happen, I don't think we should give in on our own. I don't read any loli/shota mangas so I wounldn't really feel the loss, but first of all I don't think that is very fair towards those of you that do and secondly because I don't want it to be to easy and this just keeps going untill it really hurts.
Well i find that most ecchi series have a smaller girl and i dont think those should be gone however any hentai lolicon manga should be removed because its the closest thing to child porn and i think that that could be the reason for removal of adds. if it is a choice between loosing ad revenue and loosing the child porn hentai, i would get rid of the lolicon any day of the week
This issue does put Baka-updates in a tight position. On one hand, if you all choose to keep the info... it'd be seen in the light of "being fair" and so forth. On the other hand, there's the problem of funding for the servers, part or much of which was previously covered by the funds derived from the ads. =/
And then again... now that I recall from various forums I was looking at, Google Adsense has never been very nice to sites which're non "family-friendly" anyways. This includes "sexually explicit" images, "sexually implied" images as well as discussions concerning topics of violence, sex, etc., etc. It doesn't matter whether that "sensitive information" is provided to minors with some warning or blocked from the search bots. As long as any of it exists on that site, well... good luck with Google Adsense.
And also, there's also the possible problem of too many false clicks originating from 1 IP or something like that.
To further clarify on the topic of non "family-friendly" sites, this is why most activist sites and so on... don't host any ads from Google Adsense. And I think this issue may still apply to sites not based in the USA and its' territories.
And to even further cement my comments, please read this post. The Google Adsense TOS should have already mentioned the following rules:http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showpost.php?s=b5a899e55dd92c0430838ef987922535& p=103423&postcount=7
And content from the term "mature content" refers to text, audio, images, blah blah blah blah... basically, anything that can be used to convey information.
MU was targeted by google because of a guy(?) posting a blog and emailing google's add people and the sponsors themselves to point out the loli/shota. I don't have the link but found it on one of the stickies on mangafox's forums. He listed mangaupdates in the blog and emails as having "content" on the site and being on the top 1000 list or something along with a lot of others. He claims he didn't want google to shut down websites and control the interweb like it is doing, but to point out what he wanted to so he would feel superior or something. Although anyone with 1/10th of a mind would know where it would/did lead.
In my opinion I say do nothing. This is an information website where one goes to get information. Going to out the way to delete the links to all the groups that have a release under one of these two genres would be sad since most of the groups don't do solely those genres but other non-shota/loli releases. At most maybe not let the release pages not have the "DL" link like how licensed releases go.
yeah that'd be it, sensationalist prick trying to get more traffic for his shitty blog.
lol, definitely agree. :<
It would seem he succeeded. I guess being hated for the douche you are is better than being totally alone on teh internets.
Orz...now I feel bad for actually linking it.
Right? Well, so long as he feels our seething hate, I could care less what a meager number of hits he gets.
The guy actually admits to reading Kodomo no Jikan, too, and enjoying the story... Wow.. *facepalm*
As if it wasn't obvious enough that he fails at life epicly.
However, I also do not believe that anyone has any business outlawing a simple drawing on a piece of paper. I cannot comprehend what possible crime anyone is committing simply by the act of perception--by looking at a fictional representation.
I would have to agree. These are not children's lives being exploited; it's just someones drawings on paper. Loli/shota manga isn't going to turn people into pedophiles and/or sex offenders, and it certainly shouldn't be a crime to host these manga genres.
I, personally, don't read these genres; however, some people enjoy them, and I don't see any harm in that. Now, if they had a case that directly linked some loli otaku to a underage rape crime, then maybe they would have reason for concern.
Even then there really wouldn't be that much of a reason. Seriously one crime out of the hundreds of thousands who read it isn't enough to make relevant statistics. It's like saying playing violent video games makes you a violent person, and then you have one person who plays the games kill someone and use that for your statistics to get rid of violent games. It's pure idiocy.
I am not interesting in Lolicon or Shotacon but I think you should keep the info and just remove the links (Just to be on the safe side). Even if the content is illegal, I don't why it's so bad to just keep the info of the content.
But I don't really like censorships. It restricts the arts and people's ideas.
We wouldn't have gotten so far if everything gets censored because of some idiots who don't like it. -__-
I'd prefer that the content be kept from principle.
However, I'd like to make another suggestion. How about disabling cover pages to only loli/shota series? So, we'd still keep the majority of the information on the database but remove some of the objectionable content. Yes, the covers are supposed to be censored, but there are a lot that barely have any.
If something MUST be done, do this and see what happens. Use it as a way to test the waters.
I second this.
We can keep going as we are.
People can complain all they want, the release filter was made for a reason. It's not our fault they don't use it :\
If you really wanna remove the links, sure. As long as the scanslators are still credited for. Most of 'em don't provide the link here anyways :\
but yeah... leave it as it is, till there's no other options.
like many I others I dont think you should remove too much information but removing the covers would be maybe a sign of goodwill. I dont have a problem with censorship, my problem is that it is hard to stop it after a curtain point. hentai-shota/loli, rape on children... isnt something that should be easily excepted but a simple kiss in BL or shojo isnt really extraordinary, is it?
To make it shot, it would be simply a shame to loose whole genre, popular series, information because the censorship is too strict.
I don't have any interest in shota/loli, but I don't believe people that do have to suffer, I use the release filter and it works just great!. Banning drawn images is utter stupidity, and like people say reading or watching a violent film/book/manga doesn't make them criminals!.
Like yourself, I have no interest in Lolicon or shotacon productions, but as many people believe, I think there should be room for all tastes and interests in the manga (and anime) world. The introduction of the victimless crime that is coming about with these ever-increasing witch-hunts perpetrated by politicians who are masters of the knee-jerk response is already too far down the line of killing intellectual freedom on the net.
It isn't just hentai-type titles which are being targeted anymore either. When mainstream manga such as Negima begin to fall under the hammer then what is left? The people forcing this issue will never stop. If they get their way with this, then next it could be depictions of violence. I can see the eventual end of most manga productions unless this is stopped.
As far as Google is concerned, they have set themselves up as guardians of freedom recently with their stance on China, so to find them using their power to veto sites through means of pulling advertising is very disturbing indeed. The saying goes: 'with great power comes great responsibility'. Well Google has that power, but I'm seeing very little sense of responsibility...
One of the few outspoken critics of this insidious trend of censorship is the author Neil Gaiman - he's been promoting the Comic Book Legal Defense fund and has been touring and giving talks on the subject. Unfortunately, there aren't very many voices out there for freedom, but many sites like L7world (which is the site I suspect may have started all this), which are drowning them out with their inflammatory blogging methods.
These types of articles, branded 'tabloid reporting' in the printed media world and subject to guidelines and laws, are ironically allowed to be published with impunity on the web it seems- benefiting from the freedom they are so eager to bring to an end.
As far as MangaUpdates is concerned, I'm not in a position to comment on what you should do from a financial point of view: if you can't survive without advertising and can't get advertising except through Google then your options are limited. But if you start censoring your own links, then where do you draw the line? Do you just remove the hentai links? Or do you go further and start censoring titles like Negima too? If you do, then what about 12 months down the line when some Southern states politician looking for an easy vote-winner starts shouting about something else you're linking to?
It seems freedom of speech on the internet is being suffocated. I'm from one of the worst-offending Countries in this matter - the UK. We have recently had a draconian e-bill forced through parliament in a late-night session which scares the hell out of me. What can I do about it? Well, an election is coming up in a few weeks and for the first time in as long as I can remember, I'm going to vote. I'll be voting for whoever is against that bill. It may not be much, but I'm doing what I can.
Could you provide a link or name for this bill? I live in the UK and have heard of this, but dont know the details. If you want a party that opposes this vote PPUK
. They haev no chance of getting into power, but they need the publicity (they already have a swedish seat in the UN).
Im not old enough to vote, and any letter/email I send to an MP probably wont even be read if I state my age (agism is still a big factor in getting your voice heard).
Damn convoluted politcs system.
I think you guys should leave everything as is. Like you said you are an information website so many people trust that the information you provide here that they are accurate, reliable and complete. For these reasons alone I say continue the norm and just live off donations.
Personally, i would say remove it all if they have a Hentai tag as well. Leave the non-hentai alone.
Alarmists aren't here to make sites like MU get rid of its loli, shota and hentai content. They are here to get rid of sites like MU. Getting rid of the genres will do nothing to stop them from finding excuses to get sponsors to abandon the site. One hint that MU is possibly hosting illegal content and it will lose sponsors even if it got rid of all DDL links.
woops. forgot to add, But for an information only site, i would say leave them. For now.
Sad it has come to this
Seeing how big and heated this has become, doing nothing doesn't seem like the best move atm. At the same time, completely erasing all the series info relating to shotacon and lolicon is overkill. Removing the download links (i.e. the second poll option) seems to be the sensible thing to do for the foreseeable future, if only for this site to avoid legal trouble and whatnot.
Based on how people are voting, it's understandable why the majority is voting for the "do nothing" option, but it irks me as to how many people don't care about a fairly significant subject...
Yeah, 20% doesn't care, ugh. >:/
I voted 'I don't care', but that's because while I don't believe in censorship and think the pricks that started this are being tyrannical, no matter how I don't really care about the content, I think the people who own this site should do what they have to do, and what they think is best.
I'm not big into loli or anything, but I'm worried about where the line will get pushed to later if you purge information about them from the site. I read mangafox had to remove Omamori Himari and Dance in the vampire bund, both series which I'm reading. What if they push to ban those next?
I'd suggest a fifth option for your pole: Have loli and shota automatically filtered on the site, and only have them viewable if the filter is manually turned off in the user CP. That way only people who are looking to find it can, and there shouldn't be any reason to complain.
This. It's about the only solution that would have prevented the Adsense shitstorm in the first place...
BTW, how are the chances that Google will reverse the decision even if you remove the DL links? I'd wager quite slim...
They won't. We're not doing this because of google. That door is closed.
I'd be Okay with this but it would alienate the annon crowd. A part of the appeal of MU is that you do not have to log on to get to all the info. A modification of the current disclaimer where one can shut them off under User CP would be a preferable option. But hey, the filter would be incentive for more people to log on so it is a good option to have on the table, especially if it replaces the constant disclaimers that are currently in place.
You dont need to be able to log in to do this, you could probably just have a button/tick bocx next to it which says "include..."
Users could log in and safe prefs permanently, so they can bypass this.
Im no website designer so I dont know how hard this would be, but I assume the majority of this could be done by adding the advance search filters onto the standard search. The button would disable these filters.
I don't read these genres but I am against censorship in any form. If mangaupdates removes these type of series' from the website there's no guarantee that someone won't come along and ask that the same thing be done to Hentai and Yaoi, and so on.
Mark things clearly, but don't take anything off.
Personally, I think you should just remove all links to websites hosting these genres, but keep series information. And if that doesn't work, then delete all series and information related to them as well. The reason why is that losing this great site is not worth it. I don't read lolicon or shotacon, but I understand why people are upset about it being banned and even agree with them to a certain extent. However, if you decide to do nothing at all, then there's a huge chance that this site will be no more and all of the links and info for those manga and plenty more will be gone, one way or another.
tl;dr Don't let the good suffer for the bad.
Removing links to sites hosting the genre is too draconian. Most sites that do loli/shota also do other genres as well, including non hentai works. Besides, removing such links doesn't solve anything. Alarmists aren't interested in making sites like MU safe for children. They want the sites taken down period and will accuse the site of anything from pornography to piracy in order to do so.
In my opinion, removing information and metadata like MangaUpdates would have to do, is nothing less than censorship. Therefore I vote the site continues as it is. If we let this happen it'll just be the first step, until in the end all that's left are happy happy series with a moral message. We live in a free society and manga doesn't harm anyone. People should realise the difference between fiction and real life already!
Thank you for letting us give our opinion on this.
I don't much care between leaving things as-is or removing links to loli/shotacon sites, but I think removing them from the database entirely is a bad idea. For one thing, there's a lot of stuff that winds up with a lolicon tag, but which doesn't really have anything offensive/overtly sexual in it.
they got to step 2 pretty fast
first was fictional rape then fictional children
I wonder what next yaoi/yuri or gore?
It's going to be gore. They've already been on gore for a while in video games.
First, I am not a fan of this genre. However, from what I have read this seems to be a 'knee-jerk' reaction to a bigger issue. I would agree to removing pornagraphic material concerning children, however, not all manga is pornagraphic. 'Dance in the Vampire Bund' for example.
In my opinion, I think this site clearly identifies titles that may have content that one would not wish to read and also allows the users to block those genre. I do not see the need to do more.
The only other thing you could consider is making users identify their age and thus limiting access to certain genre. Of course, this does not prevent a user from lying about their age to gain access.
There will always be people out there complaining about something.
Thanks for the news update. Too many sites don't bother involving or even informing its user base of issues about its site.
For myself, the addition of the disclaimer was far enough. An option to be able to turn off disclaimers after the first viewing would be a welcome addition for registered users. Right now it feels like a nagging grandmother is hovering over my shoulder every time I see it pop up. If I wanted a filter, I would have used the user CP. Removing the acknowledgment that the content is legal within the country would also be appreciated. In many cases, it is illegal to read loli, shota, hentai or even yaoi but it should be fine to state the facts about who wrote it, published it, scanlated it, etc.
Removing download links would be a minor inconvenience but it may benefit the scanlation groups as it will likely raise traffic to their sites. Many groups complain that visits to their sites, blogs and channels have steadily declined after all. DDLs tend to change and die so people should spend the three seconds to visit the scanlator sites anyway. If removing the DDLs does not negatively impact traffic to MU too much, I say go for it.
Removing links to the scanlation groups' sites and releases or removing the genres/entries altogether is overboard. MU is an information site. Cutting such info out will leave holes all over related genres, primarily hentai and ecchi series, damaging MU's usability and credibility as a comprehensive manga catalogue. If the site gets turned into Swiss cheese, it wouldn't matter that alarmists have stopped pestering MU because the site would already be dead.
I am not a fan of the default filtering option proposed by crystalsouls. The issue I have with this approach is that it will alienate the anonymous population which for the longest I and many others were a part of. For me, being able to access all the info in the site without logging on is one of the biggest conveniences offered by MU. Keeping the disclaimers and giving people the option to shut them off should be enough. If it is implemented though, I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. At least it will negate the need for those annoying disclaimers.
I think removing the download links are sufficient.
I know that some Shotacon and Lolicon are pretty obvious, and I'm not here to defend any of those. However, I want to point out that I've seen plenty of series where the age of the characters weren't very clear. (The characters looked young, but were supposedly over 18, or in some cases over 20.) My concern is in who will be choosing what is okay and what is not. I think that this is especially important since, in my experience, a manga character's youthful cuteness can be misleading to those who are not used to the unique drawing style that seems to define most Japanese manga artwork such as large eyes, outrageous hairstyles and the use of chibis. To these inexperienced observers most manga and anime characters probably look young, and this is where a majority of the problem lies. Like all artwork, manga drawings are essential left open to interpretation, and as such will always be vulnerable to the harsh critique of those lacking understanding. In the end, no one can prove the people depicted are of legal age or not (since they never existed in the first place), so any series that has any romantic/sexual undertones could find their way into these categories. In my opinion, not only is opening the door for censorship a bad idea, but opening the door for censorship from people who don't even read what they are trying to get rid of (Yeah, I'm talking to you advertisers!) is potentially disastrous.
BTW I think that removing the links is a good compromise. MangaUpdates should remain a source of information, but it is not necessary for them to facilitate interaction between these sites and their users
Removing DDL links, I am fine with. Removing scanlator site links; now that is a step too far. MU's primary strengths are its abilities to provide easy access to manga info and scanlators. Removing links to even the scanlators sites or IRC channels, many of whom do much more than just the more controversial series, cuts at the source of MU's values. MU is not nor should it ever seek to be the police of scanlators.
In one way, I'm not surprised that it has come to this in relation to shotacon and lolicon. But in another way, I am surprised by some of the more active protesters. What surprises me is the fact that people are so unbelievably upset by just one tiny facet of the many controversial, and often graphically depicted, genres and themes in manga.
Though I am not a fan of or advocate for the exploitation of children, I have read some decent stories by decent mangaka who treat their topic with maturity and decency. The same thing goes for controversial story lines such as rape, incest, sexual fetishes and domestic violence. That being said, there's always two sides to an argument. I've also regrettably seen many stories which treat these themes as nothing more than cheap and graphic smut.
Truly, it baffles me that people and corporate sponsors take such offense to minors in sexual situations, but ignore in large the overwhelming amount of other topics that can shock, sicken and horrify the public. This mainly concerns websites such as E-hentai.org which host a variety of sexually explicit manga with graphic representations of things such as rape and S&M to more outlandish and stomach-churning fetishes like scatology.
Well, for me, I have to say that I want people to see it as an all or nothing situation. My opinion? Keep the site the same as it is now, by all means. I've never once been forced into looking at anything I didn't want to see through this site. My only suggestion is that perhaps you could introduce a warning for uninformed readers on the page about the level of graphic content. Let people decide for themselves.
I doubt the warning label will be worth much. The genre specifications should already be clear enough. Besides, it leads to the whole messy discussion of who decides what is too graphic and what isn't.
Having poll option for users asking if a series has adult content, is graphically violent and is morally offensive on each info page would be interesting though. It would definitely add value to the site if it could be fit in.
A warning label is worth a lot. $2.9 million in McDonald's case. And you want to know what for? Coffee. A freakin cup of coffee. Mcdonald refused to add a warning label to their cups of hot coffee because it seemed like common sense, Hot coffee is HOT. But no the jury ruled in favor of the idiot who was driving recklessly with a cup of hot coffee in between her legs.http://www.vanosteen.com/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit.htm
So no matter how obvious you think a genre specification is, some people... *facepalm*
My point exactly. Safer to cover yourself than rely on the public's 'common' sense. For the most part, people don't need a warning. They'd know it all already. But it's just a safer way of doing things that might keep one's head above water if things do come down to the crunch. If a warning label is there, the responsibility is on the reader, not the site.
I looked at my 'profile' and saw that my 3rd ranked like is Lolicon.
I think that speaks for itself. I think you should just leave it alone.
And if you do decide to purge all of the material, you are going to have to really look at every series. Not every manga tagged as lolicon/shotacon happen to be adult material.
I'm not fan of those genres at the first place, so if they disappear I couldn't care less, however in my opinion, it's good to have the general information here. In my case, for example, I like to read random manga now and then which gives me the opportunity to find something new, but on the other hand also can get 'wrong'. So, I got used to check the genre in advance and the information hare gave me a warning not to read something quite a few times... you really can't tell what a story to be like just according to a cover and name sometimes.
Shotacon and lolicon are not relevant to my interest in spite of that I deeply respect the people's freedom of will/speech who like these genres, so I think the staff of the site should leave everything the same way as they were in the past.
I say remove the download links. I mean, I don't want this site to be hit in the future. It may seem ok to leave everything as it is now, but who knows the implications it can bring further down the line. I myself wouldn't take such a risk.
If you're just removing the download links, it shouldn't be such a problem to how we use the site. We'd just have to go to the scanlators site, which if anything, is good for them. Also, by taking some sort of action, it shows that we're trying to cooperate, and not just shrugging it off and throwing it back in their faces. Whether the action you take is good enough for them or not..well, it's a gamble either way.
Removing the genres and information is a bit OTT. I don't think such measures need to be taken. Not yet anyway :/
Stand your ground. Right now there's no compelling reason to remove it that I can see. If law enforcement agencies come after you - fair enough - but censoring because of what Google thinks is silly.
"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."
If people cave in to this kind of thing, it'll just get worse.
There is NO reason to ban adults from viewing images of fictional characters, no matter what the hell they happen to be doing.
This, this A MILLION TIMES THIS.
I voted to remove the links, as it could potentially remove the problem, but I had another thought that wasn't listed.
Couldn't you just... remove the shotacon and lolicon genres from the database without removing the series themselves? Most "loli" or "shota" series have other redeeming qualities or genres that apply to them, so if you don't advertise them as being lolicon or shotacon, might that get rid of the problem? The reason I bring it up is simply because, where do you draw the line and decide what's a loli/shota series? L7world listed Omamori Himari as an example, but if you're familiar with the series, it's clearly not a loli-focused series. Would REC count as lolicon because Aka looks young? But she's 20, and it's not unrealistic for people to look like that at 20, so that'd just be sexist. Of course, Australia recently banned certain smaller breast sizes from pornography so maybe Aka would be considered a loli by some...
But anyway, that's my thought.
That really wouldn't help the situation. Even if the alarmists are dumb enough not to notice that the loli and shota content was simply moved underground, they would simply move on to attacking MU for other issues like porn or piracy. The goal isn't to clean up websites they don't like; it is to destroy them.
I believe you should do Nothing and leave the site as it is. you made the site as a means for people to locate the manga they wanted, so just sit it out, everything will blow over in about a month or so. you don't have to compromise the site we all love for such a trivial matter.
Just don't display Adsense ads on pages marked loli/shota. Problem solved.
I don't really see how anyone can justify that stuff. Get rid of it all.
this view has a funny slippery slope see - people want scapegoats.
next they'll look at yaoi and yuri and say - I don't really see how anyone can justify that stuff. Get rid of it all.
then they'll look at shounen ai and shojo ai and say - I don't really see how anyone can justify that stuff. Get rid of it all.
then they'll look at seinen and josei and say - I don't really see how anyone can justify that stuff. Get rid of it all.
then they'll look at ecchi and harem and say - I don't really see how anyone can justify that stuff. Get rid of it all.
then they'll look at shounen and shoujo and say - I don't really see how anyone can justify that stuff. Get rid of it all.
slippery slopes are dangerous.
i humbly vote - keep the info - disable adsense on those sites - remove the legal warning thing - and remove the dl links.
Manga is not meant to be kid friendly, especially the kind of kid friendly you find in America. If you don't like loli or shota, stay away from it the same way I stay away from guro, tentacle and rape centered series. MU was built to give info about manga releases. I like knowing what an author has worked on and what series contains what content. I don't want MU to arbitrarily censor out releases out of some dumb alarmist's concerns. If you don't like what is coming out of Japan, go back to Disney.
i agree with this, and also with what the webmaster is saying, people don't have the right in a free society to force their preferences on others, or control what other people get to read or not - there's plenty of real violence and real crimes being committed but supporting censorship is just a half-assed justification for not actually going out into unfortunate places in the world and doing something about it (if this trend continues on the internet the outcome won't be pretty) we need to not support sites the promote censorship, and there are plenty of useful successful search engines out there besides google/yahoo/etc
so i would only remove DL links to sities like megaupload, mediafire, rapidshare... any1 who is interested in loli or shota can use google or any other search engine to find some group thats translating that genre... so i dont see a point in removing links to groups that they can find easly with just couple more clicks....
yep - no point jeopardizing the entire site :< - i might suggest moving to a more adult friendly ad-provider as well?
If MU feels more comfortable taking out DDL links, I wouldn't mind but really, this ad sponsor problem is nothing more than alarmist crap and they will never be happy until they run sites like MU to the ground.
To me, and to most people I don't think shotacon/lolicon actually matters that much. I'm more about enjoying a good manga. I therefore vote to remove both the genres. Someone posted earlier a link to a blogg which brings up MU, and it was 2 links that linked to the genre page of loli and shota. If the genres were removed no one could say that MU is specifically categorizing them.
Now is not the time to "stand your ground" and show big daddy how tough and stubborn you are. The future of MU may hang in the balance. You don't need genre to tell you about loli/shota, you can just read the manga itself.
It isn't the time to cut and run either. MU may be in some trouble but it would be in even worse if it decides that it needs to wuss out and start cutting genres and scanlators out of the site.
Don't fool yourself by saying censorship will stop attacks on MU. As I've repeated many times now, the alarmists do not care whether MU removes the loli or shota from the site. The values in Japan are different from the values in the rest of the world and scanlations are at best legally dubious. They will simply find another thing that offends them and continue to persecute MU until it is driven to the ground.
Well personally I like having the loli/shota genres there so I can filter them out of my searches. I like what others have been suggesting about removing the DDL links though.
How about moving *all* the porn reporting including shota/lolicon to a separate site? But keep the database shared? It feels as if the hentai stuff is actually flooding the release page to the point where it bloats it and finding the actual manga nuggets get harder. Sifting through new releases only to find a bunch of yaoi is really annoying. It's been bothering me for a couple of months already.
That way this site would remain advertisement friendly.
i think a column for genre in the releases page is a good idea if it's possible - we won't have to click lolishot accidentally - also, i read yaoi but some people may may not like it
Not a bad idea. Putting entire genres would clutter things up too much though. A system using green checks and red X marks may work for quick warnings. It is kinda moot though considering registration gives people the ability to color and filter genres through the User CP.
User CP huh?... *fiddles with options*
I learned something today!
i've been lurking for two years and made an account yesterday onle
but that's another issue - a lot of people don't register or log in all the time and can't actually stop from accidentally clicking a lolishot manga. so at least a single letter or 2 letters for different genres would be helpful - like /y/ for yaoi or /u/ for yuri - like 4chan does.
A user can already filter these genres from the release list by going to their "User CP" and then selecting "Genre Filtering". You can also do like I have and select a particular highlight color for these releases so that you will know right away what is listed as Lolicon and Shotacon. This way there is a greatly reduced chance you will ever "accidentally" click on these types of stories
While I do not agree with the publication of Shotacon and Lolicon manga, it is undeniable that these genres do exist, and as a website that gives information on manga there is no fault in providing information regarding titles of this genre. I believe that confirming the existence of the subject material neither condones nor condemns the material itself. It may further be argued that providing links to groups scanning such material also does not condone nor condemn the material. Google in particular should be no stranger to this line of thinking, considering this is the fundamental property for which their search engine relies.
Given the sensitivity and controversy of the subject, I think information on groups scanning and translating the material should remain, however direct links to their sites should be removed. If a person wishes to access such material, the onus is on them to then manually find the group involved. In this way, MangaUpdates is not directly providing such sites with traffic and cannot be accused of doing so.
"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."
-Pastor Martin Niemöller
Perhaps a solution could be reached, simply by separating the site into a hentai/normal database. However, by giving in to these unreasonable demands would be too much. How about I remove your right to worship some fictional character under the subset of religion? How would you feel huh?
I am also no fan of shotacon/lolicon, but I've got one thing to say: There are series that are categorized under these genres, but aren't like that at all. "Blood Alone" is one of them. By the way, it is also my only lolicon-series that I've ever read. So I don't want to say: People who read that stuff are all pedos or perverts. I just don't want to claim that.
Anyways, MangaUpdates shouldn't erase a part of its information. It may be better if there really were a second website for all hentai-stuff or lolicon/shotacon stuff. But whenever I find a name somewhere and want to search for it because I'm absolutely clueless & curious, I want to know which genres it has. So it would be absolutely great if there was a saying a là "If you want to know more about this series which includes the following genres:"", please visit this website, where you will find more information."
Would that be an option?
I don't see a spin off site as being good for MU. As much as I'd like my old mascot design be used for one, I can only see such a thing detracting from the convenience of MU while creating unnecessary burdens which maintaining two sites would entail. Besides, there are enough sites dedicated to amassing massive quantities of hentai info out there anyway. This is the best site for scanlation info.
(I don't have time to read all the comment so if the same was said, sorry for another read <_<)
As one who back in the day studied to become kindergarten teacher, having this profession now and having professional experiences with children I am entirely against children porn.
However i think that trying to erase lolicon/shotacon manga/anime/doujinshi is totally senseless. Priority of people who are making decisions should be in preventing the actual crime (ie adults taking out their sexual frustration on children) instead of trying to ban something that is drawn. Drawn images are exactly that, drawn. (For sake of future generations i hope that in most cases are) Pictures based on imagination and not reality. And that is exactly the was reader will see them. As much as pedophiles as such make me sick i'd rather see them fapping over lolikon manga than do some hunting at neighboring school.
Leave it as it is, at best i could go with what the first comment said (erasing the DDL that can be found here). Going along with this "lets censor the internet and RL" will hurt humanity on the long run. I'm not actually expecting that censors will not happen, the only thing we can do is delay the process.
I guess nobody can really learn anything from out history. Censoring literature happen in the past already, until people snapped and stuff happen. I guess this world really is doomed <_<
Like I've stated before, it's all fiction.
If they start removing lolicon/shotacon, what's next?
Personally, I won't cry if there's none of it, but other people enjoy it and it's their right.
I'm against censorship.
Where does it end?
My opinion is that no action should be taken.
To be on the safe side though, I agree with the link removal - and I vote for that.
At least until things clear out (if they do).
Other than that... MU is an information site.
Won't change anything to remove them unless you removed all adult contents to begin with because it's well known they aren't trying to just ban lolicon only, but any h-mangas that seem to involve underage characters.
Isn't it possible to put those loli-/shotacon manga under "members only" (i.e. with an accound here)? While adding filters so you can edit in your own profile that you want to filter out things (e.g. loli mangas) you don't like to see/find when you search for something here at the site after you have logged in in mangaupdates, something that anidb already does with their contents/infos about 18+ adult anime series. So without an account and not being logged in nobody can see the improper contents that they don't like to see.
I think you should leave things as they are, this is an information site afterall. It is ridiculous to try to censor, as where do you draw the line as to what is or not loli/shota. Im not one for reading loli or shota but if theyve removed 'Kaichou wa maid-sama' because its loli then it appears that i will have read some possibly more than i even realised. Will they then move on to more innocent manga series like 'Lucky star', 'Yotsubato', 'K-ON', 'Mahou Sensei Negima' 'Minami-ki' all having young characters/young looking characters portrayed in them. I can see why they pick up on series like 'Kodomo no Jikan'. but it really does depend on what they will class as having loli or shota in them...
Would just a single character or scene lead to the censors crying out "loli/Shota" to a perfectly decent series?!
Really, the only objectionable things in Negima are those few scenes with kissing, and only one of those was anything more than a light peck.
I was thinking more of Eva in her child form and it is very ecchi. once you let things slide then there hard to stop, once censors view hentai material then there be looking for other things after that. The fact that Negi is like a 10-12 year old and the girls are all older than him as well is also a factor in it.
I dont see what people have against any type of drawn sex, its not real and no people (or animals in some cases lol) are being hurt. Further more most of the time the characters dont even closely resemble humans. Personally i think normal written stories with these kind of content are worse.
Its not real so why censor it? We dont live in China or something like that, why do we have to censor something that doesnt hurt anyone and isnt real.
Actually, if you wait a little bit the situation may clear itself up. The recent supreme court case in the US probably signals that loli/shota can't be banned within the confines of the US unless it explicitly shows real humans in it (read the case on animal abuse in media). So yeah, google/adsense may be fined if they don't stop doing this soon.
But until then, I totally support a removal of such stuff. Not a big fan anyways, and its really not that big of a loss (how big is it, as a percentage of releases anyways? like less than 5%?)
I dont know about the US laws, but in the UK retailers are allowed to withohold sales for whatever reason they like, provided it isnt racist/sexist etc... I assume this also extends to internet service porviders, like google. If this is the case then google can do what they like.
To be honest we cant blame google. They have more important things to do than effectively pay someone to check out this whole debate. They saw what they saw and made a decision based on it.
For example, if you were a 3rd world farmer, you are allowed to decide to sell to fair trade over Wall-mart. Both on for economic and moral reasons
I am a huge believer of freedom of expression and I am quite happy to just move away from a manga that contains material I am not happy with and let those who appreciate it be, but should we really accept the existence of material with sexually explicit content on kids? When people are exposed to any sort of media for a prolonged period of time, it becomes accepted and part of the norm, so is it really worth risking having people walking around with sexual thoughts about children? Don't we all have a duty as part of the community to protect and preserve the innocence and purity of children? Why should anyone enjoy seeing children used in such a manner?
Not to mention that there are sexual predators who prey on young children and who are very likely using these mangas to fuel their obsession and may well even trigger it.
Starting with the assumption that you are right. Next we should apply the same criteria to any manga which might contain violence. As you said
"When people are exposed to any sort of media for a prolonged period of time, it becomes accepted and part of the norm,"
we would defiantly not want anyone walking around with violent thoughts, would we? More importantly why would anyone enjoy violence in a manga?
We could go on censoring all kinds of genres because of those kinds of reasons. However if one is able to discern the different between a fictional world and reality then it should be ok.
I think it is fair to think that you're never going to stop people from doing things that aren't appropriate and censorship combined with repression doesn't help.
That said the previous comments with reference to an 18+ system similar to Anidb's could work well. Ok we all know that it is not going to stop people under the age of 18 who really wish to view the content as people lying about their age on the Internet is the norm.
However I strongly believe that as a site that provides information only censorship is a down fall of the sites raison d'être.
Here is the thing, having violent thoughts about adults who are capable of making their own decisions, are one thing, having violent thoughts about poor defenseless children is another.
Let me give you an example. I like yaoi if I walk past someone who remotely resemble my yaoi characters I will fantasize about them having sex (I am female btw) but so what? They are responsible adults who probably think of sex too, even if (hypothetically speaking) I give them sexual looks they are capable of moving away from an uncomfortable situation if they chose it, know the difference between right and wrong and can make up their own mind about what to do.
If we use that same scenario remove gay guy and put a poor defenseless child that hasn't got the maturity nor the experience to protect themselves from an uncomfortable situation and you have got yourself a really dangerous situation.
The question is where do you draw the line?
So are you proposing to ban entire genres on the chance that someone is going to LOOK AT a child in the wrong way?
let me just clarify one thing: the hypothetical scenario I gave you was PG but can range from looking to flirting to touching and even sex.
Don't under estimate the power of the mind, in a way having genres like these are a form of brain washing.
ohoho are you trolling?
... or are you really being serious? i'd be very worried if you were - fiction and reality are two different things. to imply that these genres cause real life damage is not correct imo.
That makes you naive
please re-read my arguments and everyone else's and see who's being naïve.
unfortunately in the world we live in, it is easy to confuse reality with fiction, heck how do you think half the things we have now were invented. Flying for example how many people have "dreamt" of it and even attempted it (some have even died) a few centuries back and now it has become reality.
Think about it long enough and it becomes real for some. wouldn't that be disturbing to know that this could be the situation with shota/loli for some people?
If things were really this black and white then wouldn't mangas featuring characters with neko ears and tails inevitably lead people to bestiality? Come on, really... I mean REALLY? What you're proposing is the same simpleminded philosophy that had so many people up in arms when Dungeon and Dragons first came out. They were certain that if kids played it they would begin hacking at each other with swords and worshiping archaic demons.
I'm sorry, but there were pedophiles in society long before the first manga was ever drawn and there will unfortunately be some long after our time on this earth is done. I don't think attacking a few questionable drawings is going to change this. What it will do is open the door for people to feel they have the right to tell us what we can or can't create and observe. To me, mangas are a form of art, and thus need to be protected as such.
Look we could go on and on about this till we are blue in the face and still get no where. At the end of the day you are entitled to your opinion. I personally don't feel that this issue should be taken lightly and there is a reason why most countries would not accept shota/loli.
I would be all for a ban of this genre at least from mainstream websites.
Using your previous example where you stated:
"Here is the thing, having violent thoughts about adults who are capable of making their own decisions, are one thing, having violent thoughts about poor defenseless children is another."
Now according to you, how defenceless is an adult of say average build (European) against someone who weighs 100 kg and has competed at international level in Judo. Who all of a sudden has flipped and become violent, as you previously said what you read you bring in to reality.
I would say the defenceless child risks being traumatised for life, yet that adult risks not having much of a life left.
So if I thought your logic was right I would be more up for baning violence in manga, after all it would seem to be more dangerous!
I do do however agree with you when you say,
"Look we could go on and on about this till we are blue in the face and still get no where. At the end of the day you are entitled to your opinion."
I just don't agree with your solution that is to impose your ideals on to that minority with a ban.
And where exactly lies the difference between media which displays murder and media which displays sexual content on kids? This "purity of children" thing is a complete farce, in which western organizations demonize lolicon, in which non-real children as displayed in a sexual manner, while completely turning a blind eye on e.g. Ego-Shooters in which non-real people as mass murdered.
child porn or anything the remotely resembles it, is a very dangerous thing. It is the same thing as you telling me to illegalize alcohol because it is just as bad as taking drugs.
You can't stop people from doing what they want but at the end of the day you have to ask yourself if accepting certain things are worth it.
It is very important to understand that children are at a very critical age of development, it is a very well known fact that the experiences they have during that stage will ultimately shape who they are.
Why should we de-synthesize ourselves to material that could potentially harm them.
because they are not real children? heh.
protect the children is valid - but shouldn't it be valid only when the children are real? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_children_%28politics %29
then again, you don't need lolishot for children to get abused in the real world - when it's not sex, it's other physical abuse like beatings or psychological abuse like constant scolding or berating the children. Adults have responsibilities. When you censor something, you take away that responsibility so they can blame external things.
and if you want to talk about desensitizing from things that could harm children - take a look around - it's a crazy sexed up world where children emulate scantily clad popstars, where teens have eating disorders to stay thin, where teens are pressured to have sex in order to protect their relationships, where real predators roam after women and children and where 3 year olds wear spagetti straps and bikinis on beaches because parents let them.
If you ban one thing, you have to ban everything eventually - but it's unfortunate that cartoon pr0n is being banned when the real life thing is so prevalent.
You make very valid points and the scenarious you point out are already frowned upon by any parent in their right minds or any self respecting individual, but at the end of the day each parent is responisble for the welfare of their own kids. But should we really be encouraging those sorts of behaviors by saying it's ok for shota and loli to exist?
People love reading manga, it is fun and enjoyable, do you really want to associate kidy porn with something as mainstream as that? Why should we add to the stress of parents by allowing more people with that kind of mindset to exist? It takes a nation to raise a child, do you really want a nation that is ok with children having sex??
Regardless of whether they are real children or not doesn't change the fact that the concept is there: children having sex.
i'm not saying kiddie pr0n is ok - but where will they stop? first it's lolishot - then it's onto anything with sex - then anything remotely ecchi or mild. like i've said - it's a slippery slope and not a good one. All the world over, people who don't read manga already associate it with loli and tentacles. the more scrutiny it gets, everything will eventually go under the chopping block so to speak. I'd love to point out a neil gaiman article that everyone should read on this - http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedo m-of-icky-speech.html
In this case you obviously have read lolicon, and I haven't. I don't know whether you're writing from personal experience here, and whether you have personally been incited to rape children or give inappropriate hugs by reading it. (I assume you haven't. I assume that Chris Handley, with his huge manga collection, wasn't either. I've read books that claimed that exposure to porn causes rape, but have seen no statistical evidence that porn causes rape -- and indeed have seen claims that the declining number of US rapes may be due to the wider availability of porn. Honestly, I think it's a red herring in First Amendment matters, and I'll leave it for other people to argue about.) Still, you seem to want lolicon banned, and people prosecuted for owning it, and I don't. You ask, What makes it worth defending? and the only answer I can give is this: Freedom to write, freedom to read, freedom to own material that you believe is worth defending means you're going to have to stand up for stuff you don't believe is worth defending, even stuff you find actively distasteful, because laws are big blunt instruments that do not differentiate between what you like and what you don't, because prosecutors are humans and bear grudges and fight for re-election, because one person's obscenity is another person's art.Because if you don't stand up for the stuff you don't like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you've already lost.
The CBLDF will defend your First Amendment right as an adult to make lines on paper, to draw, to write, to sell, to publish, and now, to own comics. And that's what makes the kind of work you don't like, or don't read, or work that you do not feel has artistic worth or redeeming features worth defending. It's because the same laws cover the stuff you like and the stuff you find icky, wherever your icky line happens to be: the law is a big blunt instrument that makes no fine distinctions, and because you only realise how wonderful absolute freedom of speech is the day you lose it.
(And let it be understood that I think that child pornography, and the exploitation of actual children for porn or for sex is utterly wrong and bad, because actual children are being directly harmed. And also that I think that prosecuting as "child pornographers" a 16 and 17 year old who were legally able to have sex, because they took a sexual photograph of themselves and emailed it to themselves is utterly, insanely wrong, and a nice example of the law as blunt instrument.)
I never read shota/loli nor do I ever intend to, I find the idea of it distasteful and disturbing, I am not sure where you came to the conclusion that I have. Actually now that you mention it, when I first heard of this genre I was horrified but now...well let's just say that I am having a level headed discussion about it with people who are defending it- and this is what I mean by being de-synthesised by it.
If you believe in the freedom of expression than that is fine, but why would you enjoy this genre unless you enjoy reading about children having sex? And if you do should you be allowed to be around kids? It opens a whole can of worms, that you have to wonder is it really worth it?
Also if you want this genre to continue then it belongs buried deep within nasty porn sites/shops not here!!
Plus there is rape and then there is children having sex. The idea of children having sex SHOULD NOT EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE. Freedom of expression or not this should not even be thought about AT ALL!!
I am sorry but as far as I am concerned this genre doesnít belong anywhere
>I never read shota/loli nor do I ever intend to, I find the idea of it distasteful and disturbing, I am not sure where you came to the conclusion that I have. Actually now that you mention it, when I first heard of this genre I was horrified but now...well let's just say that I am having a level headed discussion about it with people who are defending it- and this is what I mean by being de-synthesised by it.
- uh, i don't see you being very level headed that's why im confuz.
>If you believe in the freedom of expression than that is fine, but why would you enjoy this genre unless you enjoy reading about children having sex? And if you do should you be allowed to be around kids? It opens a whole can of worms, that you have to wonder is it really worth it?
- i don't like lolishot and i don't read it. and i'm sure that most of the people that do, don't support sex with children either.
>Also if you want this genre to continue then it belongs buried deep within nasty porn sites/shops not here!!
it's a free country where things like the kkk and the nra exist - i don't like racism and guns but i can't do anything to stop it can i? that is censorship and an insult to the amendments that exist.
>Plus there is rape and then there is children having sex. The idea of children having sex SHOULD NOT EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE. Freedom of expression or not this should not even be thought about AT ALL!!
I am sorry but as far as I am concerned this genre doesnít belong anywhere
and yet again - the freedom of expression. so you are saying people have no right to express their ideas on paper and with ink? you might as well ban all manga because a lot of them have young children or young looking characters and somewhere some pervert might be fantasizing about having sex with them.
Do you want a nation run by Disney?
Manga and mainstream are two words that make me wretch when I hear them in the same sentence. Manga was made according to Japanese sensibilities, A.K.A. Not American Mainstream. Stop trying to make manga safe for American children. All that does is butcher good series, piss off real fans and force people to turn to fansubs and scanlations.
The Yaoi genre you are so fond of is a perfect example. A 22 year old teacher and 16 year old student having sex is still raping a minor in most states whether consensual or not. You like reading it but that will never be considered socially acceptable the same way GTA won't make carjacking someone and running over a line of Hare Krishnas while screaming "Gouranga!" socially acceptable.
If you do not want your kid raping and pimping his sister, stop blaming society, get off your ass and keep an eye on your brat for once. This type of drivel about protecting children is the same kind spouted by parents who lets their TV parent their kids and then protests against it because they didn't know the kids were watching South Park.
er - misfire - were you taking to me or za3? i don't want a nation run by disney. i love my yaoi. i don't like censorship and i'm saying if people start censoring something, it will be a slippery slope that will censor everything else.
>Manga and mainstream are two words that make me wretch when I hear them in the same sentence. Manga was made according to Japanese sensibilities, A.K.A. Not American Mainstream. Stop trying to make manga safe for American children. All that does is butcher good series, piss off real fans and force people to turn to fansubs and scanlations.
agreed - i buy licensed manga to support the artist more than going for translations.
>If you do not want your kid raping and pimping his sister, stop blaming society, get off your ass and keep an eye on your brat for once. This type of drivel about protecting children is the same kind spouted by parents who lets their TV parent their kids and then protests against it because they didn't know the kids were watching South Park.
that is my view as well.
Ok guys seriously, way too many long paragraphs and responses here, and while I have no porblem in debating them I really don't feel like it. I am just going to reiterate what I said to another member:
"Look we could go on and on about this till we are blue in the face and still get no where. At the end of the day you are entitled to your opinion. I personally don't feel that this issue should be taken lightly and there is a reason why most countries would not accept shota/loli.
I would be all for a ban of this genre at least from mainstream websites."
Then I have to ask you in return - why just children having sex? What's the difference between fictional depictions of children having sex and fictional depictions of a woman getting gang-raped? Quite frankly, there are tons of storylines explored in manga that make my stomach churn. If you can turn a blind eye towards and allow the existence of graphically depicted controversies like rape or gore, what's stopping you from accepting the fact that there seem to be some people in this world who like shota/lolicon?
Oh, no! Two under-aged children are having sex! But wait...there's a mother getting gang-raped by her sons! Where's the line, people? Where is the line?
Quite honestly, the second scenario is far more sickening to me than the first, but you don't see me screaming down doors to get (what is widely accepted as simply hentai) banned from this site.
to be honest I find women getting gang raped a very sickening idea too. But you might not realize this but this falls under BDSM that some women actually like and even some couples would use to boost their sex life (I am obviously talking about role playing in a safe environment). What I am saying is that it's got it's audience who get something out of it.
Kids having sex on the other hand, um who exactly should be role playing that?? And whose sex life should this be boosting?? Or why should anyone be sexually stimulated by that
Women are sexually mature kids are not.
I think a problem with a lot of people is they like to compare two different issues to make a point. I really don't think that that is the best way to understand what the problem really is. Why can't we just analyze everything on a case by case bases?
Essentially, you're ignoring the fact that everyone has their own tastes.
I have never, and would never, be sexually stimulated by the idea of rape, torture, scatology, golden showers, etc. Who's to say that people don't find it sexually stimulating to role play teacher and student in the bedroom? Technically that's shota or lolicon, right? Pretending to be a child having a sexual relationship with an adult. What about those people who are just into the whole moe thing? They'd never actually touch a child, or even think of touching one, but they might just appreciate the cutesy moe characters.
The fact that women are sexually mature is irrelevant. None of these characters actually exist. And to say the least - what difference does the age of the character make if they're being sodomized with a wooden stake? Honestly. It's okay for a man to get hard over a woman's insides being torn out by a tentacle monster, but it's not okay for two kids to have sex?
Keep information free on MU. Let people read what they choose to read.
Wow you are really getting quite graphic, I am finding it difficult to even read your post.
Student teacher role play are fine as long as it is someone who has sexually peaked. shota/loli specifically refer to "pre-pubescent or pubescent" stage (from wikepedia).
There will always be colorful stories about women and sex, but it all revolves around the central theme that guys like having sex with women and some men like to spice up the sex scenes so they won't get bored. You don't like it then maybe your qualm is with men not the mangas.
Now what is the central theme behind shota/loli?
Men fantasizing about women is natural (regardless of the scenario) but adults fantasizing about "pre-pubescent or pubescent" kids is just wrong in any context.
there is kinky and weird and then there is dangerously inappropriate.
Keep information om MU free of dangerously inappropriate material. Let people read what they choose to read but within reason.
"Student teacher role play are fine as long as it is someone who has sexually peaked. shota/loli specifically refer to "pre-pubescent or pubescent" stage (from wikepedia)."
How would one know if the character has reached puberty? Does the artist need to draw in leg hair and zits?
Hehe, well I would say that a nice bosom is always a safe bet
"Keep information om MU free of dangerously inappropriate material. Let people read what they choose to read but within reason."
THAT statement sums up what Stalin, McCarthy, the NAZI war propaganda campaign, the Tiannamen Square news censorship and Iraq WMDs with Bush was all about.
This site is about information distribution. NOT about limiting that information is it not? If you find this shota and loli unacceptable, when will the next line be drawn? Kids with guns (Battle Royale), Adults hitting children (Pretty much all of shounen), etc...
I don't care about the shota/loli genre staying or going, but as a previous message stated, it is there to allow us to filter away from it WHEN we need to. This is a site that INFORMS about genre so that people like you can avoid it. This is not a forum of your own personal expression so please do not indicate that.
THIS site is about allowing us to choose what WE, the viewer want to get information from. Not about what one person thinks we should. IF you cannot see that, then further confrontation with your view is pointless.
EG. I personally do not like Yaoi because the stories do NOT interest me. However, I am glad that genre choice is available because it allows me to select NEW titles to investigate that do.
So for that, I have always been glad of Baka Updates for the last decade.
It is possible for a person to read adult manga for more that cheap thrills. I personally love yaoi, as I see you do as well
) There are plenty of rape scenes in this genre. (It is even a running gag amongst most in the yaoi community.) However, I have never personally been worried that some man/boy may read one of these stories and feel that it is alright for him to force himself on another man/boy. "No really means yes, right??" As a yaoi lover I would also be concerned about the censoring/banning of some of my favorite mangakas, who make stories with definite shotacon undertones. Minami Haruka, Yamoto Nase, Naono Bohra, Yoshinaga Fumi, CJ Michalski, and Lily Hoshino just to name a few
I am sorry but I will always be biased towards yaoi. It is the air that I breath!!
Without it I would probably be a more violent, a sexually frustrated person, it soothes me and keeps me focused.
On a more serious note the reason I like yaoi is the same reason I like gay romance, it is a way for me to enjoy reading about sex in a safe and distant manner where I don't ever have to put myself in that scenario (since I am female). Without yaoi I would probably be much more sexually demanding.
I really don't have a problem with yaoi that have shota undertones to be banned. I like my men physically fit and aggressive (which is why I have joined the anti-girly uke club in my animelist).
Sorry I think I have sidetracked a bit but it's your fault!!
No Problem. If there was ever a good time to get sidetracked, taking a moment to moon over yaoi would be it
And I completely agree with your reasons for loving it.
girl let's just ditch this thread and start a new one purely about yaoi.
Now that have no problem talking about all day long!!!
Anyway let's get back to the theme of the thread...ahem....shota/loli is wrong!!
If this controversy was happening 15 years ago we would be talking about banning yaoi mangas because they turn children gay... Just to keep things in prospective.
By the way, I find yaoi mangas distasteful, so I guess it's okay to ban them, right?
So what you are implying is that 15 years (or sometime in the future) from now it will be ok for adults to have sex with children/fantasize about children??
Isn't that what I am trying to avoid by banning shota/loli?
It's fine if you don't like yaoi it's not for everyone, but it is targeted towards a female audience who benefit a great deal from it.
You do realise that this would affect your precious Yaoi as well as there must be many characters who are minors dipicted in those stories. Sure they may not look as child like as some images in series, but they are still children due to there age so by your logic those must also be banned.
I would actually be very happy if minors are removed from my yaoi. If you read my previous post you would know that I actually like my boys big and agro.
let me try and break it down to everyone here:
yuri/hentai/ecchi is targeted towards men who like having sex with women
Yaoi is targeted towards women who like to have sex with men
Bara is targeted towards men who like having sex with men
These groups are all natural, some people like their mangas hardcore while others enjoy it soft. And this is the beauty of doujinshi, sky is the limit with how graphic you want it or how unrealistic it is.
I am addicted to yaoi but I can guarantee you that I am not going to kill anyone the next day. I might flirt with a gay guy, heck I might even score one day and we night end up going back to my place. SO WHAT?
Now let's talk about shota/loli were little kiddies have sex. Who are the target audience? Adults that like having sex with children?-According to the western world that is the essential meaning of a pedophile. Can I flirt with little girls or boys? Can I take them home and have sex with them? If I do then I am committing a crime.
Most countries of the world ban it and I am not talking about the USA I am talking about "free" countries like Australia and NZ who have legalized prostitution, in Australia they have a gay parade every year, in NZ the prime minister gets egged pretty much every year by unhappy protesters.
I mean guys help me out here, why do people read shota/loli and shouldn't we be concerned?
Let's just put this freedom of expression issue to one side for a minute, where does the love for shota/loli come from? I don't get it??
Probably for the same reason that you read Yaoi, because they enjoy reading it.
Take the series REC for example, the character Onda Aka could be considered a loli type (she has a childlike body/appearance) but she is 20 years old. She would be considered an adult but many readers have called her a loli. Do you have a problem with this type of character?
Well I like yaoi 'cause I like men, that's is why I enjoy reading it. I think what bothers me apart from looking like a child is the age, children are not sexually mature.
Your post is kinda ignorant. :/
Okay, let me just make something very clear once and for all. Not all people who read shotacon have pedophilia tendencies. (Just like not all people who read yaoi have homosexual tendencies or even like real life gay porn.) I am going to go out on a limb here, but I'm willing to admit that I have read some stories categorized as shotacon, and I have loved them. (Note: I said some, NOT all.) As I listed before some of these were written by notable yaoi managakas such as Minami Haruka, Yamoto Nase, Naono Bohra, Yoshinaga Fumi, CJ Michalski, and Lily Hoshino. I am a 38 year old female, married for 18 years, have three sons that are ages 16 and 14, and am a regular volunteer with the local rape/abuse organization. I am not some sick pervert getting my jollies from looking at drawings of young males having relations with other young, or sometime older, males. I am a manga reader who is enjoying a story about two people feeling a connection. At times these stories involve young looking characters, but for me that is not an issue since the theme is..."A person loves whom a person loves, regardless of what is on the outside because it is the other person's soul that they are attracted to." (Sound familiar yaoi lovers?
So I get it, you only like buff, manly characters. Fine, that is your preference, but don't say that just because some of us like our ukes cute, slender and hairless we will develop or have inclinations to want to have sex with children. Reading about something and wanting to do that thing yourself are two very different things. Please do not insult me further with your over-simplistic, incredibly naive view on what kind of people would possibly be interested in stories categorized in this genre. I find your inability to see beyond your own preferences, and personal connections to what you read, pathetic and immature. These are drawings, not real life. Please remember that
I'd really like to thank you for that post, rainexoxo. You've pretty well summed it up. Though I don't particularly enjoy shotacon because of the girly ukes, I still like and respect the mangaka who create works of these kinds.
I think a lot of people are forgetting that there's a huge fanbase in Japan, and around the world, that love moe characters - cute, innocent, small and child-like. I am a short, pretty girl who doesn't look her age (23). Getting into bars is like proving my own identity and I'd easily get away with slipping back into 8th grade. Lots of guys hit on me because they like that kind of look. In no way does this reflect any kind of lifestyle choice they might make for themselves and this was the point I was trying to make by relating censorship to the more outlandish hentai themes.
There are some really sick people out there that would look at lolicon and shotacon as something I don't even want to think about. There are also some people out there who'd read hentai, or even the many violent shounen and seinen manga out there and think of that in ways that I don't even want to imagine. But the vast majority of people simply enjoy something different. I'm not blasting them into the sun for preferences that I don't share.
I admit I have a problem with graphically depicted sexual situations in which a minor is taken advantage of by an adult or guardian. I definitely can't read it. But I really can't understand how some people have so permissively accepted sexual themes and violence on a level that would make the majority of people sick.
So, where do we draw the line? As long as graphic violence and sexual torture exist on this site, so too should shotacon and lolicon. The information is there for people to make informed decisions and they have been warned.
There are a lot of genres out there that make me cringe but each to their own. My concern is children depicted in a sexual context.
People who look like children and are cute is not shota/loli as they are sexually mature.
Doesn't this genre that specifically focus on young children glorify "children" having sex when child abuse is a prevalent problem around the world.
You are a mother so you probably understand this more than others, you probably are a strong person with a very good abiltity to distinguish between what is real and what is not. As mother you also have pretty good understanding of what is wrong and right as you need to teach your kids. But not everyone is like that.
You said yourself that you don't like all kinds of shota/loli because a lot of them are probably not appropriate at all. It is the same thing with me I sift through yaoi to find ones that are appropriate (and don't contain elements of shota). But not everyone is like that.
And don't get me wrong I do love yaoi but I am not using it as an excuse here just as an example.
"People who look like children and are cute is not shota/loli as they are sexually mature." Do you even know what you are arguing anymore? Characters in adult situations who look like children and are cute are exactly what leads a manga to be classified as shota/loli. And sexual maturity is a vague concept at best since these are two-dimensional drawing we are talking about.
"Doesn't this genre that specifically focus on young children glorify "children" having sex when child abuse is a prevalent problem around the world." My response to that would be "No." Although I do strongly agree that child abuse/molestation is completely immoral (evil even), drawing or reading pictorial works of fiction with young looking characters in adult situations is not the same thing. Also, having information about these kinds of material does not lead to or promote deviant behavior. Please, understand this, if nothing else...People, in general, can read works of fiction (whether they are animalistic, incestuous, homosexual, violent or worse) and still not have the inclination to perpetrate or even support these acts in real life.
"You said yourself that you don't like all kinds of shota/loli because a lot of them are probably not appropriate at all." The Shota/Loli categories do have their extreme works, as do all genres (that quite frankly sicken me); however, I know that these works do not represent the group as a whole. Thus, I am willing to put aside my personal preferences and accept the bad with the good. As I stated above, these are two-dimensional drawings we are talking about. Any judgments made as to who looks too young and who doesn't would be solely based on personal perspective not actual evidence. I, for one, am not ready for other people, especially those who have no interest or understanding of what they are criticizing, to tell me what I can or can't read.
"As mother you also have pretty good understanding of what is wrong and right as you need to teach your kids." Yes, I do have a very strong moral compass, and I do teach my kids about right and wrong. One of the main lessons I try to impart to them is the danger of censorship, and how wrong it is for a person to use the excuse of moral justification as a means to control what information another person has access to. Knowledge is not evil.
i stopped arguing with her as guess what - she reflects the majority of the populations views with regards to this whole lolshote debate. anyone who looks young - BAAAAAD. Old Oyaji types - GOOOOOD.
that person might as well read bara - OH WAIT - that could be a really muscular 16 year old you are beating off too you pervert!!
seriously. first it starts with these genres. then it will be yaoi/yuri. then anything ecchi.
if only governments put in the same zeal into protecting real children but as we all know, pixel children have more rights than real ones.
Okay I am going to just add 1 more comment and leave it as is because it is getting a little out of hand.
People who are posting here are way too use to shota/loli and therefore can't really see the potential implications behind it.
I get it that people who like reading shot/loli like it because they enjoy the love connection between two kids, it's sweet, pure and genuine. But does it have to be sexual? Don't you think you guys are mixing too many emotions in a dangerous way? I like puppies and I like sex but it doesn't mean that I want to see puppies having sex, in fact seeing that would probably mess me up.
I think when it comes to material about and for little children we really do need to tread carefully.
I have never read shota/loli nor will I ever allow myself to, because I don't think kids should ever be perceived in a sexual way.
This is my non-expert opinion and I am quite happy to just leave it to the experts to make the decision for us.
you must stop reading any yaoi with people under 18 then - no more high school romance stories like junjou romantica - derp derp/
perhaps switch to bara where men look like men instead of girly guys.
This is my non-expert opinion and I am quite happy to just leave it to the experts to make the decision for us.
It really is this kind of mentality that allows censorship to work. What really constitutes as an expert really? The porverbial 5 men in a dark room? The guy that originally wrote the article on the internet that sparked this mess? In many of the cases of the manga that are being removed like Dance in the Vampire Bund, the theme of the manga is not sex with children, but rather there is some nudity and/or ecchi moments in the manga. In the case of Vampire Bund,
Spoiler (highlight to view)
my understanding is that the loli vampire is that way in order to AVOID having sex with one of the three greesy old men that killed her mother.
Really, I'd much rather excersise my own judgement then rely on the opinions of porported "experts" that very likely know nothing of the series in question but rather hone in on and exagerate certain elements to make their point. If you were really concerned with the physical and mental well-being of children I believe that teaching them to make well thought out and informed judgement and to excerise their mind would be more beneficial then focusing on pixal children.
dont you think the way she looks contradict the fact that she changes to a child to not have sex with old men? I mean, why dress her in clothing that is arousing? Doesnt that contradict the "message" it tries to pass? And from what im reading, your "understanding" could be completely wrong too.
From the point of view of someone who once read rape mangas, i have NO problem with rape/shota/loli being removed from here (goodbye my shotas
AND last thing, why do you not want to change a situation based on the fact they "would" go further? That's up to you to draw the line on what you want. likeze3 or something said, case by case. Yes case by case. Just like when we should use a rule instead of case by case, case by case. In which cases can you make a clear rule and when cant you. But either way, im being utopic/ian. In a perfect world, there would be no rape and no child porn
. But just because it wont happen doesnt mean i cant be angry about it.
Being convoluted and messy is what i do best by the way.
The only people who are unable to tell the difference between fiction and reality are ones with mental disorders. The majority of people are not mentally ill and can make conscious decisions about the actions they take.
Your own private thoughts should never, ever, under no circumstance be a crime, regardless of how wrong your thoughts may be be perceived to be by society. Societies should and do have laws which try to regulate criminal behavior as best as they can, and anyone who breaks those laws will suffer the punishment.
But you cannot punish people who have not done a crime, just because they thought up a scenario... Messing with people's heads and regulating their thoughts is going way too far. Read George Orwell's 1984 or some of the many other dystopian novels out there.
People have argued before that being homosexual is unnatural because it goes against nature (homosexuals can't have kids after all). But being born with a hormonal imbalance or certain genes is not the individual's fault - it happens "naturally". What's to say that lolicons aren't victims of their own biology? And while it is obvious that they should never have sexual relations with minors (who aren't mature enough to be allowed to give consent) thinking about isn't the same as committing a crime.
What matters is that no real human is hurt in manga. Actually 2D manga shouldn't be compared to real pictures because the art style doesn't even resemble 3D... The art style itself isn't even realism! It would be very difficult to properly censor sexual content in most manga works. Should the 25 year old who looks like a shota/loli be censored? Or should the 16 year old minor who looks mature be censored?
I don't really care much for shotas/lolis (ones that to me look like 13 and under with clearly underdeveloped bodies) in explicit works, but I tend to enjoy a lot of works that have sexuality in a high school setting (and I don't even mean just hentai, there are so many ecchi mangas that have this...). But once they start to ban the extremes, very soon the moderate will follow and there go all the harem, ecchi, love-comedy manga! Most of them are shonen and deal with high schoolers and the few seinen I can think of have characters that look young even if they are technically in uni...
Hell I had my first sexual experience in high school when I was 16 (close to 17, but still technically 16) with a partner my age. Does that make me a deviant sex offender? That would make a significant % of teens criminals... Maybe I really am a deviant with deviant friends but I started masturbating at 12 and many of my friends used to claim they masturbated before I ever did... I guess I'll see some of you guys in hell...
"But once they start to ban the extremes, very soon the moderate will follow..." I think this is a very good point. Once the extremes are gone, won't it stand to reason that the moderates would move up to fill that void and thus become the new extremes. When would it stop?
"Once the extremes are gone, won't it stand to reason that the moderates would move up to fill that void and thus become the new extremes. When would it stop?"
Who knows? It would likely progress like this:
Stage 1. It will be really hard to regulate with some manga ending up banned while others getting a temporary "pass" at least until the chapter with some accidental touching/kissing or the dreaded panty shot!
Stage 2. They will just ban every sexual scenario with under 18 characters and as well as characters who only "look" to be under 18.
Stage 3. Why not ban novel with explicit content too? I bet there are plenty of novels that have "illegal" sexual relations between fictional characters. I can only think of one example but I am sure there are plenty. Example: George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire epic. Jon Snow has sexual relations while he is 14, Daenerys Targaryen does when she is 13. It is a fictional medieval setting.
The Japanese politicians themselves don't seem to know what they want to do... Just read this (might be NSFW) article: http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/04/27/tokyo-loli-b an-will-include-evangelion/
derp beat me to the link.Heh.
Hello... that is what parents are all about, If parents took the time to check WTF their child's are doing, then those alarmist bastards wouldn't complain...
So a kid rapes a class mate... who is to blame? the Video Game, the TV or the fucking parents?
Want to help kids? start to use your fucking parental controls... my little sister can use this PC and search for anything in the web, But I can see where she goes and when... so if she starts to go into porn sites, I will notice it (and I did).
Want to protect children? then give parents the tools, and the reason to protect them.
I say if a kid murdered another one, not only the child should be punished, but also the stupid parents that saw the signals and didn't do anything about it.
There is parental control for TV, there is parental control for PC... so why are we being stupid about this?
I think you should eliminate download links in general. You provide enough information already for a person to be able to download releases as is. Not to mention, a lot of scanlation groups prefer people downloading it from their site anyway. Which is understand since they put the time and effort into releasing it. I figure if you really want to read it, you'll be willing to put the effort into finding it. But, eh, that's just me.
The only thing about this train of thought is that it lowers the convenience of MU which would likely impact the number of visitors to MU as a one stop shop for info. It probably isn't a deal breaker since most people come here because it is the best updated info site more than to find instantly accessible links but then again, I wouldn't know how such a decision would affect traffic at MU. For all I know it could lead to a mass exodus to DDL and hosting sites which likely already has put a drain on the potential population here.
Just by eliminating the download links I don't think it would. MU isn't about downloading manga in the first place anyway. It's to provide information related to the releases of scanlation groups. People would still continue to use the site as always because it provides accurate information on releases (and series) along with a quick and easy way to get to the site that has provided the release.
I'm not a lolicon/shotacon fan, but I think we better to leave it as it is. This is an information site, not for dl or anything. If the dl links (whether to the site or to the filehost/torrent) for shotacon/lolicon are taken off, but keep the others, then it's not fair for the others, also there's a chance that other genre will be "a controversial topic" in the future. If you want to take those links off, take them all completely, and remove the option to add the link in the add release info.
Sides, this is a work of fiction. People should see it as it is, there's no guarantee or proofs that by reading a shotacon/lolicon manga, people will get affected and turned to a bunch of pedophiles. Also, there are lots of title that have loli/shota faced adult character.
For those of you who don't care, please think if it's your favorite genre, whether it's shoujo/josei/seinen/yaoi/yuri/etc else.
I'm not a loli/shotacon fan myself, but I do like the fact that I can filter it out from searches and releases. If the genres & titles were removed from the database, what's to say they wouldn't be added back except under different genres? Then I wouldn't be able to filter them out anymore =\
Also, I'm sure there are some titles mislabeled as shota/lolicon that aren't.
Though if this is what is causing the funding issue, then I'm not sure what's best to do.
I think censoring is more apropriate. Loli-Hentai manga is a problem and the less popular it gets, the better, Regular manga sould stay, but be limitted to 18+ or smthn.
This is an information site. And cutting out a chunk of information isn't right. imho
I just wanted to point out that since this debate began, it seems to me that the scanlators have been aware of the controversy and are reducing the number or completely stopping scanning shota/lolicon titles. I certainly hope that we are not pressed into losing an entire genre of storytelling, even if I do not often care for its depictions, but perhaps because of the attention right now a lot of the problem will solve itself. I know that in the US we have enough trouble not having our oversea's purchases examined and if the media is making this a concern, I think that the buying of the genres will decrease dramatically. The point I am making is that the scanners themselves are reducing or excluding these titles so as not to either become prosecuted or to draw unwanted attention to their sites. Perhaps this will remove the pressure of deciding to no longer support shota/lolicon. If the scanners themselves do not feel able to continue in translating the works all of the drawings might eventually be removed from their websites anyway. I do feel that the information should be kept on the website, maybe without the jpgs if it makes everyone so uncomfortable. Still, this is art and storytelling even if it makes people uncomfortable and there is no reason to deny the information being there if it lacks the offending photos. But that is just my opinion. Please keep up the good work and hang in there.
Just a suggestion, Why not make the links members only? or Lolicon/Shotacon members only? or both? Or a check box in your profile to toggle Lolicon/Shotacon on and off. Lots of sites have a mature content option.
i must admit that as i am getting older, i have been drawing back from reading manga. especially yaoi. and i never liked shota/loli. it grosses me the hell out and i was never able to wrap my head around those that called it cute or whatever. its why i pretty much left aarin. that said, i honestly cannot bring myself to tell other people they are wrong for liking fictional things like that, when i like to read stories about people getting killed and beating the crap out of each other.
now, my thought on this is that all links be removed but the information be left up there and we still have the option to filter those titles out on the release page. i cant say how much shota/loli is here as i use the filter option, so i don't know how much work that would be :/
but most importantly i still would like to be able to search for a title and be able to see if it is shota/loli so i can avoid it.
at this point only new comers would be unaware of where to find things and if they (the shota/loli crowd) really feel left out they can make their own database to find releases with links. not to mention the blogs, lj coms, and forums that are already dedicated to it i'm assuming, since there are such things for other genres.
keeping the information, yet removing the links seems like the best compromise to me. people can still be informed, they just have to not be so lazy and copy,paste,search for the actual website.
my question is, for sites that release various genres would they also be in line to have their website links removed?
"but most importantly i still would like to be able to search for a title and be able to see if it is shota/loli so i can avoid it."
I completely agree with this stance, which is why I voted to remove links and retain the information. I would, however, make people search for the sites themselves.
It is that last question that I'd like answered most myself. I am for keeping links to sites since one of the purposes of MU is to provide a meeting place for the scanlation community as a whole. Restricting site links would hinder the sites functionality while placing an unnecessary and pointless burden on scanlators and leechers. People would still accuse MU of facilitating illegal searches by listing scanlator groups. Removing site links will add no value. Moving scanlator info would be even worse.
On the other hand, deleting just the DDLs actually has a possible benefit to scanlators since it would encourage people to visit their site, which hopefully balances out any lost traffic due to inconvenience.
Some of these sites are being removed from the Google search index, so I say expunging links to the sites would likely kill off all ways to find them.
I don't read either, to be honest, I think they are skeevy. But what pisses me off about this is that people who don't read manga, only say they are "japanese cartoons," are going to think that all manga is kiddie porn.
You people were asking on what to do regarding the Lolicon Shotacon issue, but is there really a need to do anything? Assuming you change something, is it likely to get adsense back to funding this site? If yes, then I definitely suggest you people make some changes, if not then I don't think there's a reason to change anything.
when most manga have characters under the age of adulthood, i wonder which isnt loli or shouta....
I don't believe I'm reading any shotacon/lolicon titles, but completely removing all information of titles in those genres is something I wouldn't want. I could live with just removing the download links though, I suppose.
I think that Remove isn`t an option, You are not HOSTING!!!, you only inform about the new releases, Synopsis and descriptions about mangas,besides shotacon and Lolicon aren't genres only related to mangas HENTAIS, You can read and watch these genres in many mangas and Animes mixed with Comedy, Ecchi, Harem, Romance,Drama, etc. So what? all these good stories are gonna be censored? This is not Fair.
Speaking about the real problem Hentai manga with Lolicon and Shota Contents, I read Hentai, but I`m not very into Shota/Loli, so well I know sometimes these mangas have disturbing contents for some people, but all is about "My Own Free Will", So If there are people who read these genres, because they like them, They are Gonna read them In one way or Another, So Now What ? the people in gonna shut the eyes, and they gonna make like these genres don`t exist? Wrong Decision, The theory about: "We are gonna remove all the bad contents to prevent that these genres spread!!!" Yes It`s very beauty, but in the reality this Neither is it practical nor reasonable, because when the people is in abstinence, They tend to search more for it, although They at the beginning weren`t interested in these Genres.
In this way i think that Mangaupdates do an Important Job, because you host information about these mangas and You made clear warnings about the contents in these, I say, I've left to read many mangas because of You, at the beginnig I was ready to start the reading, until I check the information of the manga in your Website.
I think that you should place a Question to gain access in the information of These mangas, warning about the contents in them?
and Add more CLEAR WARNINGS in THE GENRES!!! IF the people read it, It`s up to them!!!
So What`s better begin to read a manga without know very well Its genres and Contents or to Have a Website where You can check all the information about the manga, and to get warnings from the people about the contents!!!
Well, Whatever I`m Faithful to MU, I vote for Free Information
Well, given that this site is primarily an information site, I don't think the information should be removed--after all, I use this site sometimes to make sure manga isn't loli/shota or hentai/yaoi/yuri/etc. So what I'm saying is, it's important to have information about series from those "garbage" genres, things that really shouldn't exist and that no one should really read, even if only for the sake of identifying them as such, that way they can be avoided. Now, given that lolicon and shotacon are indeed garbage, I see no problem whatsoever removing links to websites that host/scanlate them (and the same for hentai, yaoi, yuri, shounen ai, and shoujo ai, since those are the same kind of garbage). That way, Baka Updates is not expediting the veiwing/downloading of these series (we're really not a download site, anyways), it's only providing information about them. And, this way, if a person so desires to read these things, he/she is able to do so, he/she will just have to do a little more work of his/her own for it. In this way, the blame lies not so much on Baka Updates as on the person him/herself, which I think is fair.
Also, I just wanted to say that I think the policy about explicit images that we have right now is fine the way it is.
I agree on some points made. Having the info on the genres so that people will know what to avoid is a cornerstone of a good information site.
I disagree with the elimination of links to scanlator sites, especially the wide swath that you've listed. I'm surprised you didn't include ecchi, genderbender or harem. Most sites do more than just one genre of manga and banning them for hosting controversial stuff is just insane.
Say for instance a lolicon site is hosting the latest scanlations of your favorite manga. Would you have the scanlators banned from posting new scanlation info or shown on the site without mention of it also being primarily a lolicon site? Of course you won't do either. MU should to keep people informed.
If u do ban loli and shota it will only be the beggining. Soon they'll start calling for other stuff to ban.
Well, on one side I would say that you should change nothing because I feel that would be like giving in to censorship. But at the same time, I understand that if nothing is done you guys might have a hell of a time taking care of the site.
So... I would remove links to the downloads...
Removing the series itself would be ridiculous (in my opinion) because having facts about the series cannot hurt anyone. It would be like saying "having facts on Communism makes a site Communist and helps to train new Communist agents" or something along those lines.
Leave it as it is. Or remove download links only.
You know, this is a joke. I don't really get the whole pedophilia witch hunting. FRANKLY, it's about the same as homosexuality. Granted, in this case it isn't right to ACT on your feelings as your partner wouldn't be quite consenting.
"No significant curative treatment for pedophilia has yet been found. There are, however, certain therapies that can reduce the incidence of pedophilic behaviors that result in child sexual abuse."
Now, before someone will flame me to death. I'm all in for severely punishing people who have ever abused a minor in any way, but these people don't really have a choice to be a pedophile or not. So why is everyone treating them like the worst scum from the get go? Who knows how many out there have a normal family and have lived their whole lives without acting on these urges?
In their case I'd say that lolicon / shotacon manga ( I'd say that both explicit and not ) may actually be some kind of substitute that helps them control their urges? I think that's a hell of a lot better than real life abuse of minors or real child pornography.
I say, to hell with censorship. Sooner or later they'll want to ban all manga and other visual means of entertainment and then we'll have a real books burning again with half of literature being banned. From then it'll be a short road to totalitarian governments from sci-fi movies. They already have surveillance cameras everywhere.
I am also strongly against Lolicon, I don't have strong feelings for or against Shota. I believe the the salvation of hentai will have to come with the severing of any connection or taint of CP, real or perceived.
I try not to judge fellow perverts lest I be judged, but I will not miss Lolicon and I would like to see the bulk of hentai material left for those of us that love and support it.
Im sorry but you cant judge one and not the other, either judge loli and shota the same or dont judge them at all. you cant say "loli is bad but i dont mind shota". There are also alot of series out there that have loli or shota tags but are not hentai at all and that characters are not seen in a perverted way.
(I'm writing as if this site is based in the US.)
Since you are based in the US, and lolicon and shotacon are declared illegal, it's better that you go along with it if you want to get funding. Remove all image covers for genres, download links, and links to groups that scanlate it (only if necessary). Another good measure would be to automatically censor shotocan, lolicon, and (possibly) hentai from the site for non-users, and say somewhere that those genres are automatically censored if you're not logged-in.
I'm a bit too lazy to read through all the comments, but sorry if someone's said that already.
Forgot to add:
Looking at how the poll is going... a lot of people want to keep it the way it is. But I don't think that that's going to help you. Most of us are less adverse to shotacon and lolicon than most people out there, including advertisers. Site needs to be funded somehow.
But this isn't an US-site only, Xeronia. O_O
Well, it's hosted in the US I think. Which would make the difference in my opinion, though I'm not certain how internet law really works.
Like the legality of scanlations, the legality of shota and loli is pretty hazy. Even if the links were removed the site would still get attacked by people accusing it of aiding in piracy. Really, in the end, MU is going to have to find less restrictive/paranoid sources of ad revenue or rely more on donations.
Besides that, an auto filter isn't a bad idea. I just worry it would scare away the lurkers who are used to not having to log on to browse through everything. Convenience is one of the biggest strengths of MU after all and I prefer not to log on unless I feel like posting something since I tend to go overboard when I do.
I prefer to keep myself logged on at all times, just to have the release filtering/highlighting enabled.
Now, if only it was possible to specify a priority in which genre highlights should be applied...
Lolicon is still legal in the US. Only a few states have made it illegal, but in the country as a whole it is still legal.I´m a staff member on a english lolicon forum and our servers is in the Us. And we haven´t got warning that lolicon is illegal and the forum will be taken down
They have tried to make it illegal several times, but it have always been shot down .
Thank you. I was thinking that to my knowledge it wasn't illegal and wondering what everyone else was talking about...
I agree with everyone who says that the direct download links should be removed but not the scanlators. That way it can't be said that MU is directly providing loli/shota. Removal of series information on the other hand is going too far because information in itself merely informs a person of the existence of something. There are plenty of titles mentioned on MU that have never been scanlated and are included for the sake of completeness (or so I assume), so it's not like anything illegal is going on because having information doesn't automatically mean there are scanlations or piracy is taking place.
if you truly are going to delete loli-shota...... than this site is going to be just a disappointment. truly :/ i already felt disappointed by the fact that you deleted the groups that release english scans.....(ex: senfgurke2, furiouspuppet and so on)
I'm not a fan of either loli or shota. but if you guys are actually going to censor the releases...
than we scanlators will just have to move to a new site that provides a better management of releases that doesn't censor manga by genre. o_o
btw...... how could you think of deleting loli/shota........... when some yaoi/hentai are alot sick-er than loli/shota.
I was still a new lurker at that time so correct me if I'm wrong but I thought MU only got rid of sites that hosted scans pirated directly from volumes published in the U.S. There are still plenty of series with releases sans DDLs on site, most prominently Naruto, Bleach and Claymore.
Otherwise, I do agree with your stance against censorship. All it would do is alienate users.
This is pretty sad though. Later we probably can't enjoy manga without people telling us what we [b]can[/] read! This is probably just the start of it. In the future they'll censor the whole internet because of stupid reasons in order to keep us in their control.
I'm not a fan of lolicon/shotacon but occasionally I do read some of them.
It'd be really frustrating to not find info about a series just because it has such elements. On the other hand I think some "very specific" infamous hentai/guro series should be completely banned from this site. Not necessarily all guro though.
Banning all the bad stuff will not create social awareness, it will merely limit access to such things. People will always find other ways. Though people sometimes need someone/something to stop them lol why am I talking about myself now...
This site only informs releases, starting to not inform about releases because of certain content is simply censorship.
Hey, I just wanna throw a thought out there for consideration. I can understand why they want to censor and ban shotacon and lolicon, but I think we all can understand that. The interesting point is though, that child porn was always bad or immoral, because of the potential harm to the child who had their photos taken. The damage, and exposure of young innocence. To me that was why it wasn't good. A loli manga doesn't have that risk or emotional value. And as long as the audience understands what pure fiction is, compared to their real life world. I see no problem with reading whatever seems interesting, loli or otherwise.
Removing anything from the site that provides no more than neutral information, not even about the content itself, but about manga publications themselves and their unofficial scanlations, feels wrong.
It's like we go to Wikipedia and say "hey, remove any article containing word 'sex' ó it helps spreading porn".
Do it now and next you'll have to remove catgirls manga for claim from greenpeace for animal abuse.
And it's not like you can't lift the ban in adsence. Personally, i've done it once, though it cost me lots of nerves and money for international calls.
In all honesty, I have no interest in these two genres; however, this violates freedom of speech. You should do nothing and see what happens; the problem is what MIGHT happen in the future we can't predict.
It is no longer just Loli/shota problem. When I saw that large sites as mangafox are removing all series with mature content I was shocked first, but then I thought that it is not so bad until I can find them using information I get here. If this site lose even inch of informations or dies, it will be painfull blow for all of us manga fans. So I am even willing to give donations, if it helps the site go on.
Why are some people adding the yaoi and yuri categories into this debate?! Even though I also believe in freedom of expression, I also do believe that shota/lolicon is a grey area when it comes to legality and these new child protection schemes that are being brought about right now. I wouldn't mind if shota/lolicon is banned, but banning (or considering banning) yaoi and yuri is going too far. That's just homphobia. Yaoi and yuri involves sex between consenting adults- liking or hating it is your opinion, but talking about banning it when MU is talking only about banning shota/lolicon? That's going a bit too far. Then you might as well ban every category in manga!
Well I don't know why other people are mentioning it, but it could be that there was at least one case in which a person was charged with possessing child pornography because he had a lot of yaoi manga. The argument was basically that even though the characters were stated to be above the age of consent, because of the art style, they looked underage (probably just because they were bishounen or something). I don't know what the result was, but still, the fact that it even was brought up is ridiculous.
People mention those topics and hentai because they are seen as vulnerable points that could also be used as justification to attack MU. Banning just loli/shota or even all adult content will do nothing to stop the attacks. All it would do is encourage other nutjobs to go after MU for other things that offends them. I'm personally disgusted by Yaoi but I'd defend MU's right to post info on it come hell or highwater. However, that won't stop some other moron from looking for an excuse to kill it. One story about a pair of sixteen year old boys reenacting Brokeback Mountain and you can easily have alarmists crying pedophilia and yaoi in the same sentence.
Any site hosting adult information with a large following of young people will invariably come under fire; especially if arguments could be made that the site serves pirates as many license companies sees scanlators as. MU's only real defense is to remain the best center of scanlation information; something it cannot do if it starts banning genres when some moron wants to raise a stink.
I don't and will never understand what's wrong with loli-shota manga even if they r explicit.It's just drawing nothing of that is real even if some are crazy enough to think those manga r exciting what's wrong with that ? It don't hurt anyone.Google don't protect anyone by stopping site from posting lilicon content they just show how powerful they are i think that's the only goal in all that.
Well, Google appears to be doing it because they don't want to have their name associated with child porn. Whether or not loli/shota is actually child porn is irrelevant (though I don't believe it is) because all that matters is what the public would think.
I forgot to answer the question but i say leave it as it is or at best just take out link i don't agree at all with website that let google control them only because google bring them money for their site.If my boss where i'm working was trying to control me and make me go against my will i would probably quit that job and find another, isn't the same here in a way website is kind of a job and google is the boss who bring money.
I absolutely agree with you. The site PROVIDES INFORMATION and you should continue to do so. Society was not too interested in this site when you all first begun, but now that you have a ton of followers itís all of a sudden a big deal. Most people who criticise really do not even really know about Manga or call them comics. So why adhere to some societal norms that has little or no interest in this little bit of the world. Manga is popular all over the world and since Japan seems to be a "civilized" country with written roots that go far beyond what western culture can even dream. As you opined, it's a drawing! And I completely agree! I am sure they have way less problems with child molesters than western civilization, especially the good old United States. I believe you all should continue PROVIDING INFORMATION as you all at MU have always done. To hell with all the newcomers who feel they even have the importance of speaking disrespectfully about the culture of Manga!
And thank you for sharing the information that you all gather. I have been a fan of the site since late 2006, but just recently became a member.
Lolicon and shotacon series range from extremely mild with no sexual content down to hentai. I think we should narrow any action to series which actually contain bannable/illegal content and series without such content should be left alone.
Keep it like it is of course. Once you give in to one thing, they'll just keep asking you to remove things. Now it's loli / shota, the next thing it'll be every manga containing violence or sex and then we're only left with some slice of life and romance mangas.
I hate to say it, but someone's ALWAYS got a beef with something. With all of the anti-gay junk out there, it would not surprise me in the least if the "conservatives" go after yaoi/yuri next. Gay pr0n? Perish the thought!
As for the shota/loli debate, I like shota. I LOATHE child pornography, but shota isn't kiddie porn. It's drawings. Period. They wanna arrest me for my shota collection, then I'd like them to show me the actual children that were exploited. Instead of wasting time, energy, and money chasing shota/loli MANGA, they should be out there helping REAL children being exploited/abused. This is nothing more than bureaucrats trying to look like they're doing something.
I think keeping the info up but removing links to said content is the best option. I don't see anything wrong with providing information. Whether someone is actively seeking out the loli/shota manga or want to check the info to make sure they avoid it, the info should be there. If providing links to pages with this content is going to be a legal problem, then don't link to it. I don't see them banning sites that give instructions on how to make at home bombs, commit suicide, pick locks, etc... Ultimately, everyone was a right to in the info whether they plan on viewing it or not.
Looking at the 3 choices, the first doesn't sound too good for the future of MU, if the problem indeed arose from lolicon/shotacon reasons. Since the problem occurred, it can happen again, and maybe with even more severe consequences. The third choice would be breaking the tradition MU has stuck to for so long and for so well, of delivering information on comprehensive list of manga. Also, if this lead to banning of other mangas with violence and/or sexual content, the list will be even more smaller. The second choice seems like the best way to go, assuming this is the reason why Adsense banned MU in the first place.
"The second choice seems like the best way to go"
So you understand, if you remove a link to the site because ONE series that group did was labeled lolicon/shotacon its WILL affect ALL series that the group did.
That is not "the best way to go" as you are basically saying to groups "dont work on these type of series or we no longer provide links to you", I would not exactly call it blackmail but its certainly a type of pressure and as the rule that this site had to links have been download links to licensed material.
No just no just no.
It is an information site and there is no reason to change anything.
If you want my full view go to both those threads and you will no why.
Because Child porn is anything under 18 and I refuse to have 80% of my manga list eventually removed.
If it isn't one thing it's another.
I would understand removal of H-related ones I guess, but some don't even fall in that category at all. , If it is becomes against the law....then until theres change, its morally ethic to abide by it.
Everyone else has pretty much said it all.
I don't care for loli/shota con, but it doesn't bother me that the website I use has it. I'm not forced to read it, so I don't mind keeping the information provided; that is the purpose of MU. The stories are freedom of expression and it's not causing harm.
If you're worried because of rules like those of AdSense, then really, it seems the only condition they'd approve would be to completely remove all connected information. This seems too drastic for simply keeping one company's service unless there is no other alternative. Google has a right to be selective of what businesses their company associates with - even if their choices aren't agreeable with everyone in the world. If Google's search engine suddenly started blocking sites like MU from their results, that would be a bigger concern of censorship.
If this is a legal issue (I'm not an American and I'm not so up-to-date on whatever legislation has passed or being considered there), then modify/remove content (hopefully as little as possible) to pass whatever legal issues may arise for the benefit of all the other data this website provides. You'll have to keep track of the events occurring in the U.S.
Several years ago in Canada, there was a case where a man was arrested for being in possession / creation of written work that contained inappropriate content with minors. However, in court it was ruled that his stories were worth artistic merit/freedom(?) and so he could not be charged for possession of child porn. My memory is fuzzy, but I thought I'd note this because written work and illustrated work are similar. Anyone remember this?
And there are a lot of shoujo series featuring airheaded girls below age of consent who snag adults in positions of trust/authority (eg. teachers). I supppose the audience is mostly girls instead, but the relationships are similar.
I'm inclined to go with "don't provide download links" (like, to Mediafire or whatever, not talking about scan groups), if that's a way to get some revenue to keep the site going. But in that case, it should be "don't provide download links for anything". Then again, I don't think I've ever even noticed those links, so I might not have any idea what kind of impact that would have on other users.
Removing all info about lolicon/shotacon altogether is right out, though. I've read a few shotacon shoujo manga where the label is applied just because the girl is in high school and the guy is in middle school, but nothing more than handholding happens. It's really stupid that such benign books would be censored.
But mostly this whole to-do is really irritating me because I like yuri quite a bit, and it doesn't take much to see it or yaoi falling under the knife next, simply because people don't like yuri or yaoi porn. Or then there's the josei manga like those by Yuki Yoshihara that aren't completely explicit, but do have a lot of sex scenes that don't leave very much to the imagination - labeled "mature", maybe they'll be gone, too? So, yeah, no. Not on board with removing the data about shotacon/lolicon altogether. (It's also nice to be able to run a title through the search and know to avoid it, if it comes up with those labels, if it's not you're thing and wherever you found it doesn't have all the information.)
If you do anything about the loli/shota it won't make much of a difference to googles add department. This site through its wiki like system showcasing Manga breaks plenty of googles "NOT PROHIBITED" content rules i.e., (Violent content, racial intolerance, or advocacy against any individual, group, or organization. Illicit drugs and drug paraphernalia. Excessive profanity. Gambling or casino-related content. etc. etc.). Most manga out there contains these things, mostly the shounen type content.
When did you guys turn off the poll?
Baka-updates already provides a very nice filter/blocking option to people who find Lolicon/Shotacon objectionable, I find that sufficient because it makes the censorship a personal, individual option which is in keeping with by beliefs of freedom of media. I think imposing censorship (limiting freedom of information) on all at a site claiming to provide information is just hypocritical. I personally dislike many things posted on the releases, but I'm an adult, I simple don't have to look at what I don't like. A simple pop up warning "The content/link that you are about to view may contain material only suitable for adults" or an adult members only option on it should be enough to protect "The Children" (everyone always cries about the children in these cases, even fictional drawings of them) Although if censorship starts, next will go will be the hentai, then anything ecchi, then any nudity, the partial nudity, then any graphic violence.... notice violence, always comes last <_<; point is censorship is a slippery slope on your personal freedoms and an insult to your intelligence to make the right decision on your own.
i think if u'r going to mark "loli/shota" as a spoiling content .. then what would we say about "yaoi/yuri/hentai" ??
if u think these are ok .. then leave the "loli/shota" as it is as well
best of luck !
although i'm not a big fan of these genre, but we can't avoid or prohibit readers to read them right? it's just like porno videos, you can't avoid or porhibit people in reading them.
so i agree to some, that it's better just to remove the links to those sites that has access in reading or dl of those affected series. Just the links. since MU is not a downloading site, it is just a database site, like a wikipedia site.
oh, now that i mention it, would they also ban or tell wikipedia to remove their info about series that has these genre? hahahaha.. that makes Adsense et al stupid... if that will happen, why not tell other big sites: e.g., brittanica ency, etc, to remove those info that has these genre.
Well its fine because you can filter it, but maybee you should auto filter for those who doesn't have accounts(same with any other manga that might be offensive like hentai and yaoi) then there is no problem because only those who dont care or want that manga will see it
It would probably be a good idea to remove the links posted by anonymous scanlators. And probably the actual links to the groups that scanlate it. But, I don't see a problem with leaving the group's name there.
I personally, don't read it and have it filtered out on this site. What everyone else does isn't my business.
I find it quite laughable that google makes such a fuss about things like this. Nearly every illegal site out there has adsense ads on it, and many of the ads themselves are for illegal sites. Look around at some adsense ads on various sites (especially anime/manga related ones) and you will see countless ads for illegal download sites (many of which probably include loli/shota content). How they can sit around & complain about illegal and/or offensive content, while actively supporting similar content is beyond me.
That's the thing. They're not actually hypocrites. They've realized that it's a problem and is trying to stop it. There was a big purge I think, and that probably included lots of illegal sites.
Just as said before...Just go for a default filtering even for non-members. I really don't see why removing a manga genre would solve anything coming from a manga info site. This site should be complete and considering removing the genre is an insult to the many artist that brings us works that we enjoy.
One thing you never mentioned: if the links or even if the series information is removed do you think/intend to try and get back into adsense or how much do you think it'll help with getting any other advertising support?
Also I think it's kinda disgusting that you can be removed from schemes like adsense without any particular explanation. Is a personalised email explaining exactly why too much to ask?
control freaks. Let's ban loli/shota - it's "immoral". Let's ban yaoi/yuri - it's "immoral". Let's ban gore - it's "dangerous"...Let's just ban the whole fking world -.-' (everything in this comment is sarcasm except "world-ban" and "control freak" part).
side note: The talk about baning "dangerous games", but what about movies? Some movies are far more brutal and...."realistic" then some of the video games..
Why not try what Danbooru did, only allow that kind of stuff to members. They say it's so advertisers don't stop support, but I think it could have a lot of other benefits.
I'm not sure it really matters if the given material is hard to access.
As long as it's possible to access it the sponsors probably won't come back.
Still I am all for that option. We already have user control panel where we can filter out releases, so why not just make shota/loli, and maybe even yaoi/yuri and hentai releases hidden by default? Explicit content will at least be hidden from moralfags who don't intentionally pry deep. Anyone else can just tweak their user cp to their liking.
Well Danbooru still has ads on their website, so I think they may be doing something right.
Defaulting mature content to off does sounds like a good idea, though.
... Well first of all, I think most kids who actually read manga online -- Are MATURE enough to understand the difference between fiction and reality. As I've been reading through these arguments, I've come to the realization that there is much bias.
After all, everyone is entitled to what they themselves enjoy to read. Only those with mental illnesses would possibly imagine to 'role play' lolicon or shota.
But anyway, if they ban lolicon and shota, it won't be long before they decide to move on to other things. For example: Yaoi. I understand that many people like this particular genre. I also know that people don't generally come out in public to let people know they actually do.
I think some people are generalizing kids as 'immature' or can't make right decisions. I started reading manga when I was about 12 - 13 yrs old. When I learned what all the genre terms meant, I instantly knew what I wanted to AVOID. Yes, I was actually capable of thinking, mind. Anyhow, I generally avoided anything I found disturbing such as Yaoi, Shounen-ai, Lolicon, etc.
Unbelievable, isn't it?! I was able to make my own decisions.
Leave it as it is. I'm sick of people trying to censor manga, anime, and doujinshi. Lolicon's okay depending on the situation, and I don't particularly like shota at all, however I like pairings that are. Sebastian/Ciel from Kuroshitsuji for instance. The people who read/watch lolicon and shotacon do it for the pairings, not the loli and shota. A lot of people don't realize that, or even bother to think about it. Don't forget about us.
I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to remove the DL's links, to avoid possible problems, but keeping the links in the groups pages so that people can download form the scanlators directly.
The hell!! This is an INFORMATION site! Leave the politics out of it!
please don't take down anything, i get all my info here including loli and shota and there's no where else to go if you decide to take them down, there has to be a way around this so until then, please please please leave your site just as awesome as it is, with EVERYTHING.
When contemplating my answer to such a perplexing question, I ask myself these first:
- How much of my precious freedom am I willing to give up just to appease a simple minority of people who happen to be offended by the very existence of such content?
- Can they even be appeased at all, or will giving into their demands only embolden them to make ever more restrictive ones?
- Why should I even give in to them to begin with?
- By what right do they have to force their views on others in such an oppressive manner?
- Does such a right even exist in this universe to begin with?
I think not. Do nothing, and go about your daily lives like usual.
you created this site, held it togather long enough to get a billion page views... so i think that i will trust in your judgement... after all its your effort that goes in to maintaing the site so you must love it all as much or more then the rest of us... good luck you will have my support no matter what you judge is the best course of action...
Leave it as it is. This is a manga database site after all. It would be pointless if you guys start to censore stuff.
Isn't it possible to change from Google Adsense to another?
MU is popular so maybe even with another company you can still mange?
Hope everything works out for you
Fight da Powa! We don't need Google!
...(based on current poll results), would it at least be possible to add an option to filter them from the Releases list, or to filter out all doujinshi? It would make the list a whole lot easier to read if not looking for doujinshi.
Oops, my apologies, I see that it's already possible while logged in. The filter options won't save for me in Firefox (worked in IE), but that's a separate issue.
CP is completely normal and depicting it to satisfy sexual urges of wanna be pedophiles is completely ok.. lol
fucking americans and their need for freedom above everything. Just let pedophiles go somewhere else to search for their kid porn fiction
If the manga just has lolis or shota but that's not the main point of it and they aren't depicted mainly in a sexual tone, who cares?
Look, the main problem people have with this ban is that every under 18 depiction would be banned eventually, which practically bans one 1/2 of all manga. Age of consent tends to be 18 years of age, which makes 16-17 depictions out to be as bad as the very young depictions. That's just not right, since most older teens (if not all) explore their sexuality (not necessarily sex, but almost everyone masturbates) because it is only natural to do it at that age.
1. Ban is way too broad.
2. Older teens have sex in the real world.
3. Manga doesn't even feature real depictions in the first place, because the art style isn't realism.
4. How can you expect manga fans to be okay with banning ecchi manga featuring fictional high-school characters when such a ban doesn't even work for real life high-schools. (Even if you didn't date in high-school I am sure you have at least seen people who have...)
how can you say that? It is targeted at the depiction of children having sex. Stop mixing things.
second, i disagree with ecchi. If im looking for scantily clad women, im going to read hentai. Oh, and i don't read manga to watch scantily clad women. I read manga for the story. And about rape, if it is within the context of the story and brings more dept to the plot, i dont mind. The problem is, its often NOT the case.
I thought people like you would use the "ban is way too broad" crap. I'm not saying to ban under-aged characters. It's obvious I'm saying to ban just the loli romance or sex.
17 years old that are fully developed are not loli. You know that.
I can bet my ass that if people just stopped posting hentai or manga that depicts kids in a sexual way - and by kids I mean those that are made to look like they are 10 years old - that no one would give a damn if the manga has someone that is 15 or 16 or 17.
What google, advertising systems and normal people don't really like is just the loli sex thing. They don't really give a damn if a developed 17 years old woman is fucking a dog.
As xtr3m3dude said, the ban is too broad. "Loli" to people may mean different things, for example to me, loli is pre teen but as I can see here it seems that anything under 18 can be considered "loli". One of the issues I have with this is the fact that some series like vampire bund is made to be some kind of child pornography when it isn't. They just focus on the aspect of a manga that allows them to make their point and ignore the rest. Honestly, if only people were so zealous in censoring the Catholic Church when their priests molests children and are let off the hook and the incidents buried.
Honestly, like demongod said it might be bit different if they actually have clear guidelines as to what loli is, because their definition now isn't just pre-teen. And as he already said there is much more important issues going on, like maybe the Catholic Church and their pedopriests? Or how about SaudiArabia and their 10 year old brides?
Why do moral crusaders always have this "holier than thou" attitude when trying to condemn thoughts and ideas? They should try to do something about the real life issues before playing internet moral police...
That's just it, there are many real world situations of child abuse that gets swept under the rug and how many moral crusaders do you see out and running about? teen suicides due to bullying, domestic abuse, child molestation cases, teen prostitution etc. etc. etc. and these "bleeding heart moral crusaders" choose to champion the portayal of pixal girls.
Oh, so I can't have my own opinion? I need to agree with everything that you say and like? I'm "holier than thou" just because I don't agree with your ideals?
I am not Catholic. I am not from Saudi Arabia. They don't have ANYTHING to do with manga updates. So we are not allowed to discuss what was proposed in this post just cause there is more important matters in the world? Don't be ridiculous.
The big majority here is OBVIOUSLY defining loli in the same way that you do.
What I clearly said is to ban Loli and Shota IF the main point of it is just to depict a kid having sex. By kid I meant those that look like they are 10, not the ones that look like 16.
Why would anyone want them here? Seriously, why watch a 10 years old kid having sex if you are not a pedophile?
For you people feigning ignorance, I will simplify my post:
Remove links or information or download info that meet ALL of the following:
Have characters that are specifically made to look like they don't even have 12 years old yet
Are focused specifically on eroticism/sex.
Simply as that. Fairly understandable. I'm guessing that not even 1% of the mangas here meet those criteria. Just those loli/shota hentai that you can easily find anywhere else. Go back to adsense and be happy forever
big problem with that buddy,
adsense TOS also prohibits being associated with with adult content which apparently enforces fairly broadly since other manga sites are being cut off from adsense for hosting adult content which apparently covers ecchi and yaoi stuff from what I've seen taken down. looking over its TOS it also prohibits violent materiel so that is gonna take another big chunk.
So in the long run I think its in this site's best interest to find something else other than adsense,
unless you are perfectly happy with this site being strictly pg-13
The thing is, I can bet that if there wasn't this loli/shota recent issue we probably would not hear anything from advertisers. -IF- that is what caused the problem, them it's fairly easy to deal with it.
I really dont think so
even if it is what caused it they are in the spotlight now, I really can't see them saying that once loli/shota is removed they'll be turning a blind eye to other mature content
even then if they did
These types of moral crusades aren't exactly torrents that stop firing,
sooner or later that torrent is gonna be pointed at us.
maybey you doubt that this torrent can be pointed at anyone else
so here I'll give you an example of how it can.
adsense TOS prohibits violent material
so lets take something like that
someone reads this or hears about this and become offended or thinks material such Akumetsu is dangerous,
they can successfully argue that those hosting or linking to this violates adsense TOS
I mean the manga glorifies killing politicians and vigilantism, some can even argue that it encourages it.
that's just one example
now I don't know you, so for all I know maybe you would support having Akumetsu removed ,I'm going by the assumption that you are more reasonable than that, if I am wrong in that assumption then I do apologize.
in either case
were do we draw the line?
I just can't see that happening. There are thousands of violent movies. There is violence in every HQ. It's something common in America. They are NOT going to ban it, if it isn't real or really extreme. But that is not the case with CP. People just have way less tolerance.
nubman pretty much covered it. My comments were not directed at you but rather at the situation on a whole. You and I may define loli as pre-teen characters but that is obviously not the case with the powers that be whose definition of loli seem to include everyone below the age of 18. Hell, Kaichou wa Maid-sama was taken down initially as well and as far as I recall I do not remember really any ecchi moments or anything explicit from that manga. If eroticism and sex were the only things targetted then there may be a way around it but clearly that is not really the case. And that raises the question what they would consider eroticism? innuendo? pantyshot? if so under their umbrella blocking of "loli" the number of series affected may well be significantly over a meager 1%.
We don't value freedom above everything else but we do value it a lot,
our mindset is this, if something is to be banned there needs to be a valid reason
"I just don't like it" or finding something reprehensible or offensive is not a valid reason,
things need to present an actual danger to be banned.
actual child pornography should banned because it presents a danger by hurting kids.
lolicon art shouldn't cause well it doesn't really harm kids or present a public danger,
you may argue that it does by saying that lolicon causes men to turn into savage uncontrollable sexual predators, personally I don't think that the case but back on topic...
if you simply oppose sexually explicit lolicon on this site because you think its offensive, disgusting and reprehensible and don't want to be associated with it, thats fine.
but do note that there are many people out there that are offended by diffrent things
if the site goes on and appeases you, why shouldn't they also appease those other people?
Please don't try to twist what I said. My opinion is really understandable in the last few posts.
No, I don't like Loli, but I don't really care if it's in here. BUT YES, I do think that adsense is right in not wanting to have Loli on contracted sites, it's their business and they can do whatever they want with it. No, I'm not trying to impose my moral standards on you sick people who like to see children having sex. YES, I have the RIGHT to think that people like that have something missing in their heads, just like you have the right to like CP or Rape or anything and EVEN have the right to think that I'm the sick bastard one for not liking it.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY:Yes, if it is going to hurt this site, just take it all off. It's better to have some part of manga updates than risking not having it at all.
It's probably more work, but maybe you could make any 'questionable content' hidden so that people can't access it unless they are logged and have selected the option to be able to access it. Kind of like Pixiv has the option to not be able to view R18+ content unless you want to.
Of course that wouldn't actually solve the problem of the content being on the site... but maybe I'm just lazy and want a shortcut for excluding those genres from my Genre searches all the time.
The guy who started all this by complaining to AdSense about everyone brags about... reading Kodomo no Jikan (which he used in his complaint) in a 4/27/10 comment here: http://l7world.com/2008/02/kodomo-no-jikan-anime-mang a-review.html
In other words, he's trolling. He's having a big laugh causing trouble for you and the rest of the community, and you shouldn't give him one dime of consideration.
If what you say is true, than he is probably the biggest troll ever recorded.
We need to not let ourselves get pushed by the greed of green. Today it's the lolicon, tomorrow it's the hentai, next year it's the manga itself. Remember that guy who got jailed for normal ero mail ordered from Japan to USA? The claims were for lolicon, which is, well, understandable as an offense, but the fact that none of the content contained lolicon is what makes me suspicious of the entire ordeal. Financial reasoning is what holds our worlds technological evolution back, and as thus, I cannot agree with this. There's plenty of manga out there that contains "lolicon" just to point their fan-service towards all customers, losing GOOD AND GENUINELY INNOCENT titles due to people with no knowledge or understanding for this type of market needs to be placed on leash. Examples of titles that will be lost: My Balls, Yuria 100 Shiki, Love Hina, Nana to Kaoru, Toshiue no Hito, Momoiro Sango, Kodomo no Jikan, IO, Hayate no Goku, etc etc, and any other love series that has a child side-character that either baths with the other women or somehow ends up with a rare panty-shot fan-service scene.
Hell, 90% of all series would be lost, all that we would have left is series like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, and all the other junk shounen series with no "real" focus on love (albeit One Piece is admittedly a decent story - oh wait, isn't Nami under 18 in first hundreds of chapters? I guess we aint allowed to read One Piece either, eh?).
I'm just saying... it's a bad move.
beautifully phrased...in my opinion, i think manga updates should just remove all the direct links to websites that host the file, but still keep the series' information in the database...the purpose of manga updates from the beginning was to be a database for manga series...although lolicon and shotacon are largely controversial genres in many countries, they're still manga, nonetheless, and should hold a place within the biggest manga database on the web...
If we ignore the useless unhelpful 'i don't care' option currently 67.12% of people that voted do not want anything done. I personally agree with them. There are lots of other advertisement companies out there. I value the information stored on this site very highly indeed and thus would hate it compromised.
I voted 'I don't care', but not because I don't care about the issue or the site, rather I would've voted 'Do what you have to' if that was an option, but it isn't and "i don't care" was closest in meaning to that and I'm sure others who voted it interpreted this way as well. So I wouldn't call it the option unhelpful.
I'd rather the site owners do what they have to keep the site up and running, than lose it doing nothing.
Now if they can get consistent server funding without removing anything, thats great. But the reality is that may not be possible.
As was said before, they get one inch and take a mile. What you're doing here is great.
The thing I don't get is that you only provide information on what's new, not actually hosting the explicit content yourself. Yet you're getting this problem . . . Who cares what they think! The service you're providing helps tons of people know where to find what they want no matter the content.
Why restrict links? Content I can understand (though I rather they don't), but links aren't hurting anybody. If they want to see the content they go to another site, you are only providing them information on where to go, not the content itself. If they don't want the content displayed, then don't provide service to the site that has the content.
I use this site quite often. I view some of the manga that are considered to have this like "dance in the vampire bund"(one of the top manga(#25) on www.onemanga.com). Anybody that reads that knows that it's not focused on such as is being discussed. In fact, the only reason it is considered is probably since they show a girl getting bathed, or some such. What adult hasn't bathed a child(or childlike body anyways)? A lot of which that will get banned has content that occurs in life somewhere along the way.
Of course there is content that is extremely focused on such explicit content, but don't deprive us of part of such a great service.
As has been said before, just as we have the right to view content we have the right to ignore it.
Don't restrict links. Don't remove them. So many will lose out on part of the great service you are providing.
I'm sorry if this is a little halfwitted as I'm in a hurry.
I understand that you are having cash flow problems now, and hopefully people are willing to donate. (Unfortunately for myself I can't as I'm currently unemployed) And maybe you could find another advertiser that is willing to work with you.
*Shakes head* Unfortunately I see the logic behind the attack. They're thinking if you're going to kill a plant, cut the trunk instead of the pulling off individual leaves. By attacking MU they're attempting to cut off a branch that leads to those leaves.
The "Logic" they are using is kill the plant by making the ground toxic for the seed. Kill off the bad thing, but as a side effect kill off a lot more than intended including some good things.
I do think the movement and all the controversy over such material is really stupid. The problem is ultimately that people want to enforce the censorship of something that bothers their sensibilities without acknowledging that as being their intention. To get around that, and in the US the fact you can't just block any expression because some might take offense to it, they champion it as a battle for protecting the children, or women in the case of the rape games issue. Except here's where I find it fundamentally absurd- when doing this, you're asserting that basic human rights should be extended to fictional beings, people that don't exist, the fabrications of someone's imagination. It only can balloon from there because if you extend some human rights to fictional people, there's no reason to deny them in other contexts- fundamentally one cannot be human enough to have rights in only some situations but be human in others. It's even been satired in some eroge recently- characters actually bringing this up and musing over the serious existential and social complications that would arise from granting actual legal rights to fictional characters that have no capacity to think, act, and feel, and wouldn't even exist, without the command of their creators, noting that in all consistency, they should also be allowed to vote and note how absurd that is and people need to stop butting into things that don't matter.
That issue is not really relevant to the problem MU faces. This is ultimately about funding. The real problem is that google's ToS are/were being selectively enforced and MU is caught up in that crackdown. They're completely allowed to decide what they want to support in their contracts, THAT isn't a censorship problem per se. It boils down to two results: surrender the ad revenue and maintain the principles that information shouldn't be censored because some take offense to it (what this rule of the ToS encompasses, essentially); or gut the offending data and keep the revenue? Personally, I would prefer the former option: keep the data and find an alternate source of funding. I know that's probably asking a lot of MU, I'm sure finding a new advertising revenue source isn't easy, let alone one that won't take issue with the content involved. I'm not saying it's a primary fix, but the blow of reduced revenues can be mitigated with a donation system that I'm sure most of us are willing to contribute to.
Maybe we could boycott the ad companies? I don't know if there are enough people, but maybe if nobody clicks on an ad from any website, then maybe it'll have a large enough effect?
Though, this will probably do more damage to websites themselves than the ad service provider.
It's not right when companies have so much power that it can control the media itself and even the government . . .
We have lost between 10-20%(at least 150 at the moment) of the manga hosted on onemanga (Until they sort through it), and probably a lot more on mangafox.
Most likely we will lost around 5-10% of the manga overall if they are strict
This site, however, will lose much more since it acts as a database for what is out there.
That is supposed to be what this site is for: not what the content itself, but a collection of what there is, who released it, and information on what it is.
Companies already have control over a lot of media out there. We need to fight for our right to view what we want (at least for fictional beings). Fictions doesn't hurt anybody, and what happens outside of the web will happen whether or not this content is on the web.
I think all links to lolicon and shotacon should be deleted. Honestly, the pressure on Japan is totally justified and marking it as illegal as well. To show kids as sexual objects is just plainly disguisting.
I have nothing against smut/echi/hentai, but loli/shota is just ewk.
The main problem I have with your statement is that it is completely untrue. To me it is not about the legality of lolicon and shotacon but rather that a country feels justified in pressuring another country to change their policies just because something offends their sensibilities. You can make lolicon and shotacon illegal in your own country you have no right dictating the policies of another country. It is like saying me saying I do not like red hair so therefore noone else can have red hair because it offends me.
And why is it untrue? It's his opinion. You have yours and yours is not the absolute truth.
In those countries point of view, depicting kids having sex is not acceptable, so they will pressure japan. IF china was killing homossexuals or something like that, they would suffer the same pressure, even if it was a cultural thing.
Again, there are two issues. First of all, we are talking drawings, ie. not real kids but ink on paper (or pixels on computers) if they were filming real children in pornography then I would be more inclined to concur. If as much effort was focused on censoring the Catholic Church when one of their priests molests children or cases of teenage prostitution, then maybe that effort would translate into something tangible in terms of protecting minors. As it is, it just translates to the Japanese being forced into censoring anime like Evangelion and Doraemon. Secondly, again we are doing with one country who does not like the laws of another country and deciding to put pressure so the other country conforms with their own boundries of comfort. We are not dealing with mass murder or even with real children being abused. Japan already has laws concerning depiction of real minors in pornography but again said restrictions, like in other countries, just did not apply to drawings.
sorry for double post but there does not seem to be an edit function:
"Secondly, again we are dealing with one country who does not like the laws of another country and deciding to put pressure so the other country conforms with their own boundries of comfort."
And that just how the world goes. People have different views on right and wrong. Some people think freedom and respect of cultural ways is the right thing, some don't. No use crying if you are the minority. Just complying with it is just way much better than having this site down
You know, the powers that be that are in charge does not equate them to be the opinions of the majority. If they were, there would not be such huge opposition to the Olympic tax in British Columbia. Now if we are talking about just the situation on the website, that is not the majority opinion either, but rather the companies getting information from one guy on the internet looking for attention and wanting to save their company image.
Yeah, just imagine if some major Muslim country such as Saudi Arabia pressured the West to ban all porn since it's against their law... And if they wanted their arguments could be backed by actual economic measures, not just moral suasion.
'Tis a slippery slope indeed...
That's the problem with some super company with shady rules, which can choose to remove you from ad sense and prevent a big source of income to sites with no explanation. I mean MU doesn't host anything illegal, and even if it did a warning before just removing would be a much better option. The problem is google can do what ever the hell they want, pretty much piss on whatever site, and there's nothing you can do about it, it's hard to understand what's the address to even post a complaint.
Lolicon and Shotacon... lemme think... ew.
But that guy who posted the article in the first place... asshole. And hypocrite. I think removal of all links to the websites and getting rid of some of the pictures that are too explicit should do the trick >>
And I think the same way about yuri and yaoi manga, ewwwwww - two people of the same sex having sex is gross and I dont like it, dont watch it, dont read it etc....but just because it is not my cup of tea doesnt mean we remove access to it because I am offended. I am an adult and no one is forcing me to read or watch yuri/yaoi related materials nor do I force others into my opinion on the subject - case closed.
Where is the link for the poll? I'd like to place my vote but I can't find the poll.
The poll is over... That's why you can't find it.
I see, that sucks. thanks
what was the end result?
Question: What should MangaUpdates do about Shotacon/Lolicon? (see news post for more information)
Nothing, leave it as is - votes: 8235 (55.2%)
Remove all links to websites hosting these genres, but keep series information - votes: 2642 (17.7%)
Remove these genres and all series and information related to them - votes: 1195 (8%)
I don't care - votes: 2836 (19%)
There were 14908 total votes.
The poll ended: May 1st 2010
I love masturbating to lolicon and especially shotacon(seriously, you should go check that last Kinoshita doujinshi).So NO, leave everything as it is
what the hell happend to "dont like it, then dont look at it"
my sentiments exactly, i dont like the stuff not my cup of tea but i wouldnt ban it, thats just supressing someone else for my own tastes, thats straight bull man, i support you manga updates!!!! haha
Just let mangakas draw what they want, let publishers publish what they want, and let the readers read and own what they want. Leave it as it is, keep the information open, give it a place, and let those who want it, know it.
If you are going to ban shotacon/lolicon then why not ban violence too? If you think that shotacon/lolicon will give a person the urge to do what he is reading, then isn't the violence genre where killings abound need the most attention? people watch violent movies, they play them and yet only a very small percentage of those imitate what they have seen right? The same goes for loli/shotacon, but the audience is much smaller and the probability of someone imitating it is even smaller, if not none, as a true pedophile would not want 2D art but rather real children to satisfy his disgusting fetish.
Last week I sat down and clicked my way into some porn. Iíll start off by saying it: Yeah, I watch porn. Most people do, although not most people will admit it. But I do. And guess what? Iím nothing like that clichéd image of the guy watching porn, sorry to disappoint. Iím not some huge, sweaty, morbidly obese shut-in sitting in some dark basement in his boxers that you can barely see because of the folds of fat covering it, with pizza stains on his chest, multiple chins and a neck beard. Nope. Iím just a regular guy and I even have a girlfriend. And guess what? She knows I watch porn - and sheís OK with it, too. While weíre there, Iíll also add that porn hasnít ruined the way I view sex, either. Iím not expecting my girlfriend to do anything weird and Iím not wishing our sex life was more like what I see in the videos. Porn hasnít made me disrespect my girlfriend and and it hasnít made me want her any less.
Yeah, I watch porn. And I start by saying that because I donít want the rant to be about porn. I honestly donít care if you approve or disapprove of it. If youíre old enough to watch it then youíre also old enough to understand that different people feel differently about certain things. I do feel itís about time we just got rid of the stupid taboo surrounding pornography and sex in general and realize that humanity has got much more important things to worry about than to fuss and complain about something weíre actually programed to do and enjoy. But still, thatís another subject entirely.
So anyway, I went to access a porn site and it took my directly to my ISPís homepage. So I tried again, same thing. Then I tried some other sites with the same result. It would seem that my ISP simply decided to block access to some of the biggest and most popular porn sites on the net. Their argument? Child pornography. Now, perhaps we canít agree on the validity of porn, but Iím sure we can all agree on certain things, right? We all agree that douchebags wear Ed Hardy clothing. We all agree that Darth Maul died too soon. And we all agree that child pornography is bad. Right?
This of course got me wondering if perhaps I was the only one unable to access these sites, so I do a little bit of searching. As it turns out, a while back the Colombian (thatís South America, for those of you a little behind on your geography) government determined that all Internet websites with child pornography in them should be banned, blocked and made unavailable to Internet users in Colombia - and that I applaud. I mean, sure! Weíre all against child pornography and child abuse, arenít we? So I naturally have nothing against my government blocking any access to sites with kiddy porn in them - I mean - itís not like I was planning to visit those anyway.
But when I discovered last week that one of the largest porn sites on the net was being classified as ďdangerousĒ because it had child pornography in it I got to thinking: how exactly would they know that? I might be going out on a limb here, but Iím pretty sure this didnít really involve any research or investigation of any sort. Iíve been checking that site out for well over a year and Iíve never seen a kid in there. And accusing anybody of child abuse is a serious thing, not a finger you should just run around pointing at whoever you feel like. Just because itís a porn site doesnít mean you can wildly accuse them of stuff like that, and just because a woman looks young it doesnít mean she is young.
It just means sheís lucky that way. Good for her to look younger than she really is.
By now, thereís probably a few of you moaning and groaning, saying ďthis guy is just horny, send him a pic of a boob alreadyĒ. And thatís not it. Any self-respecting geeky net surfer knows how to go around blockades of that sort, and as far as me watching porn goes all of this is nothing more than a nuisance to me. All it means to me in that regard is that I have to do a few extra clicks and thatís it, I can watch the porn I wanted to watch with no problem. So trust me, this isnít about the porn. Itís about other people making my decisions for me. Itís about my rights. Itís about how I should be able to access porn if thatís what I want. Iím an adult and thatís enough to make my own choices regarding what websites Iíll be visiting.
It just so happens that my country has a campaign called ďInternet SanoĒ (thatís ďHealthy InternetĒ, roughly translated), and the idea is to protect children from abuse and such. And again, Iím all for that. But one of the other aspects of the campaign is that according to a law from 2001, anybody can report a site that they suspect is displaying child pornography. Then the police has to look into it and if they decide that itís true, then an act is passed forcing all ISPs to block that site. And again: Iím pretty damn sure such an investigation never went beyond looking at the site and saying ďyup, she looks younger than 18″.
But ďInternet SanoĒ is also about protecting ďourĒ children from exposure to material intended for adults - and thatís where I stop agreeing. Why? Well, for starters, there is no such thing as ďourĒ children. Theyíre your children, because I donít have any. Iím aware thereís a lot of responsibility and inconveniences involved with raising a child and thatís why I decided not to do it. I wonít go into a discussion about the general attitude society has towards having kids and all that, but I guess that it can be summarized in saying that if you decided to raise kids I shouldnít be forced to raise them with you. What this means is that you should be the one worrying about how youíll block sites with adult content in your home and I shouldnít have to worry about how Iím going to manage to access them.
Claiming that the blockade of a few porn sites will help stop child abuse is the equivalent of claiming that youíll stop women from getting raped in the woods by burning down the forest. Itís like claiming youíll stop people from polluting the river by drying it, that youíre going to fight shoplifters by shutting down all the supermarkets. Thatís just not how it works and youíre not really fixing the problem, at best youíre just covering it up. Child abuse is wrong because youíre abusing a child. If you film it thatís also wrong, of course. But just because you took the pedophileís camera away it doesnít mean heíll stop raping kids. It just means he wonít get to film it. Never mind that the legal age of consent in Colombia is actually 14 years of age. You can go ahead and have sex with the pre-teen if you want to - just donít film it (sarcasm, OK?).
But again, this rant is not about children just as it isnít about porn. Itís about how my government decided to block the porn with what is clearly a rather wild accusation (Iíd be willing to bet that most if not all of those huge porn sites are ready and quite capable of defending their contents). Itís about how the net in Colombia is no longer neutral.
Basically, shielded with a law we all agree is good, decisions were arbitrarily made. In the heated climate of todayís world, child abuse is a big issue, and ďthe peopleĒ demand action. Internet porn is an easy scapegoat because most people wonít be able to go out in public and demand to have it back. What comes after they block a few porn sites? Well, they block a few more. If they can do that, what keeps them from blocking porn in general? After all, some of the tits in there arenít wrinkly enough, they must be under aged then! But you know what? The ISP that blocked my porn also handles cable TV, and for a few extra bucks do you want to guess what kind of channels you can get? Yup, porn.
The randomness of these decisions really makes you wonder what comes after porn. Will it be sites about paganism? How about sites with violence? Perhaps sites that speak against our government? Or against religion? When the net starts overloading with data and decisions need to made about what comes and goes, how will those decisions be made? Iím not expecting porn to be a priority then, but can I really trust for the decision to be made objectively? Or will it be made based on the moral judgement and superstitious beliefs of one individual? I really donít need to tell you about the ďslippery slopeĒ that comes after blocking a few porn sites, but perhaps I can make you wonder about how close your own country is to mine. Weíve all seen this happen in China and felt itís so far away that thereís no way itís gonna happen here. But believe me when I tell you that these things are contagious. As soon as one country does it the next country feels like they can do it too.
In closing, itís not about the porn. Really, as soon as I discovered what was going on I took all the necessary detours and saw it anyway. Itís about how the battle of net neutrality is also taking place here where I live; and it starts with the blocking of a few (big) porn sites. Spread the word.
THEY WILL NOT STOP UNTIL THEY SHUT DOWN THE INTERNEThttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkmcupFx3FQ
OMG! That advertisements is scarily realistic. I could see some company promoting that kind of service and some politicians agreeing.
a lot of politicians around the world in a lot of countries do agree.
and protect the children will be used as the first defense against any CP - real or virtual, to control the freedom of speech.
look up - DEBill, ACTA, Dangerous Cartoons Act UK, Canadian Cross Border Anime restrictions.
because the governments finally want to control the internet.
I'm glad to know that the MU staff agrees with free speech and would only do such things out of reactionary precaution rather than bein' a hater.
for the past few days, those series - only the name of the manga/dj and scanlating group turns up - not link to a page. so for the lolishoter, you've decided to not have a page for them ?
is google ok with that
i hope they still support MU and help you guys keep up the great work. this is a fantastic resource!
(a repeat comment - so people can see it)
ah gosh - the pages are now present. i assumed the wrong thing
sorry for disturbing. thank you!
Well, I do think it's ridiculous to have a law about Fictive characters but it probably can't be helped. People who do the law don't read manga I guess.
IMO, the best would be the 2) solution and remove the links.
Deleted, upon reviewing this post over a year later, I find it excessive. My apologies to offended parties.
Quote from TheGentleman
God, I spent so much time wiping my computer after that download, I will stick to streaming hentai forever. Never again will I download ANY hentai, a cartoon isn't worth so much potential riskfor something I hate so much.
Never again for any hentai. Never again. *Utter Disgust*
Get rid of Lolicon. Save hentai, save anime, save manga, save ecchi. But lolicon must GO.
Quote from TheGentleman
God, Save hentai, save anime, save manga, save ecchi. But lolicon must GO.
Quote from TheGentleman
God, Save hentai, save ecchi.
Hmm...for a man who brings up God multiple times in his post, you sure know how to show your piety.
Adam & Eve couldn't resist forbidden fruit, and neither can I.
Yay for loli <3
And some shota...straight shota only though lol....with a few exceptions.