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|New Poll - Scanlation Watermarks
|This week's poll is from our member aznluck. If you haven't noticed, some scanlation groups put watermarks over their stuff so that no one can copy it and claim it as their own. What's your opinion on such a practice?
You can discuss this poll on our forums here:
You can submit poll ideas here (and try to keep them manga/anime-related):
Previous Poll Result:
Question: If a series was good all the way to the ending which sucked, would you still read another series by the same author?
Yes - votes: 12528 (89.7%)
No - votes: 1440 (10.3%)
There were 13968 total votes.
The poll ended: February 11th 2012
Not hard to predict that one, but I'm surprised at the high number of "no"
|Posted by lambchopsil on February 11th 6:50am
personally, i dislike watermarks. they somehow decrease end product quality. i also dislike credit pages. they add extra bytes to download and they usually tasteless. but i know well the feeling when your hardwork gotten claimed by someone else. painful indeed.
looking forward how the pool will result,
No problems with credit page or readme.txts but full-paged watermarks on something they have no legal right to distribute seem to be pushing it.
The current watermarks used by japanzai on batoto are pretty good though. They appear for a split second before disappearing. Watermarks were only introduced due to online manga aggregate sites not complying with the wishes of the scanlators.
Credit pages are needed because many people read manga from these manga aggregate sites. If there weren't any credit pages, you wouldn't know who helped to scanlate the manga and also wouldn't know how to contact them (Assuming they don't check MU). It's also used as 'advertising' space to recruit more help. As long as they don't add 2 or more credit pages per chapter, it's fine with me.
Japanzai and Simple-Scans are seriously going overboard with their abuse of watermarking images. I personally don't think it's helping scanlators "win" against MangaFox or any of the other 'perceived' evils anymore. One of the few groups that i think watermarks in a courteous way is Soba-Scans.
Simple-Scans? Seriously? They watermark usually at the corners of panels and it's barely noticeable. And Japanzai's "watermark c/o MangaFox/MangaHere... go to Batoto" or whatever watermark (which they don't even use all the time) doesn't even faze me. Heck, I have yet to download one of their unwatermarked versions; not that I even intend to.
We all know that you hate against us. No need to make it public.
Japanzai's watermarks vanish immediately and Simple's is so fucking small you don't notice its, nor is it in any obvious place.
You claim to be all-so-friendly on the public, but in reality you're power-obsessed control freak that has no respect for his staff.
Good job, bro
It hardly seems appropriate to make a personal attack on someone here.
There is a lot what doesn't seem appropriate.
It's still being done.
My reputation went down the drain long ago.
No use playing the hero now.
You're only validating the negative feelings people hold for you. Seems like a bad path to go down.
No point in redeeming myself at this point.
Not like I want to anyway.
Like I said, Empathy is playing the good-guy on the outside, but he's even more screwed than me.
It's just that no one realizes it.
I don't want to be hailed.
I did many despicable things, I'm not denying it.
The only reason I'm still here is, because I have fun translating.
I don't actually care where reader read my chapter or if they thank me or not.
But if the reader they read on, is making a profit from that, it's a different topic.
I tried many approaches to plead to the readers to stop reading on mangafox.
What did I get in return? They were telling me to fuck off.
I'm don't want to appear stuck up high, but the majority of the readers forgot who they should be thankful to. They take it for granted now that the chapters appear (on mangafox).
People bounded together to go against Tazmo, but no one is going against mangafox?
Yeah, because mangafox is convenient and nobody wants to lose their easy way of accessing manga. Understandable.
But no one ever takes into consideration the side of the scanlators.
And don't come saying now that if we are real scanlators we wouldn't mind such small details, because after all we are doing it for the readers.
Yes, we are doing it for the readers, most of the time un-thanked. And we don't mind that.
We have our fun working on the stuff. But again, we can't tolerate a third-party making money off that.
Huh. You're not referring to your readers as leechers like so many others in this thread and you don't have watermarks on the reader on your site. For that I'm thankful.
- From the masses who hoard Japanese manga after reading unlicensed scanlated stuff.
First you are a monster! second a derp! third there be no masses who says that, only a chosen few!
Still every scanlator knows there's two kinds of people: readers and leechers. Readers read stuff and say thanks once a blue moon. Leechers reads stuff and complain or troll since it's their "right" to get the next chapter watermark free.
PROzess you've been working so hard bringing so many great manga's to the anglophone worlds attention. No matter where I go, I see your involvement.
In many ways you should be a scanlation legend, hailed by everyone.
But you've created lots of unneeded collateral damage in your fight with Mangafox, and have started picking fights with leechers.
Maybe it's time to take a clean break from the whole scanlation biz for several months, and then come back to the issue with a fresh perspective.
Dude, I told prozess to quit all together but no avail D: Help me getting prozess to stop scanlating for miserable leechers who don't deserve the titles translated by prozess
Well go run www.stopprozess.com >.>
I love you too, T1.
Credit pages are necessary indeed. and a small unobtrusive watermark like Soba Scans is classy as heck and nicely designed. Anything that appears as a full page thing even for a split second is an insult to the art work and a distraction.
asking people to read on batoto to get ad money to buy raws or whatever goes against the "For fan, by fans, for free" rule that the great translators of yore have lived by. If you can't afford the hobby, don't do it. Asking for raw donations is alright because it's not money that's being exchanged.
The only time a watermark bothers me is when it actually covers the artwork on a large nicely done drawing, full page, or double spread someone went and redrew. I like to save the pages of really good images when I come across one. Having to redraw a redraw or find a raw just because of a watermark or text is annoying in those cases.
Otherwise I can understand why so many groups put them on their releases unlike many many ungrateful leaches.
"asking people to read on batoto to get ad money to buy raws or whatever goes against the "For fan, by fans, for free" rule that the great translators of yore have lived by."
-This often repeated complaint always makes me think "[Money] For MangaFox, by fans, for free&without work(by MF)"
None of the groups are asking you to give them money, unless you want to. What they are asking you to do is stop willingly and eagerly (very eagerly in some cases) making money for the greedy noez.
A-Team's watermarks on the breaker manga have been obnoxious. Theirs is sprawled all over the page and is considerably thick, making it hard to read.
And still you don't get the message they are trying to send...or not doing anything about what they are saying even if you see their problem. The problem of a group who would gladly give you more and more manga/manwha if you supported them the right way....sigh...maybe you deserve it?
Personally speaking, i don't really hate watermarks. But if one group decided to put one, make the watermark at least not ruining the pleasure of reading. try to keep the watermark at minimum level. like put it outside the box or the corner on one of the page, etc.
Firstly is the watermark a pictures or text?
And is it still readable?
As long as it's not disturbing, it's ok.
Agreed. I can tolerate watermarks as long as I can still figure out what's going on. Where's the option for that? The last option is a bit vague on this issue.
And IMO, I'm getting something illegal for free; watermarks are a small price to pay. If I want 100% clean manga then I will buy legal copies.
Unfortunately some groups have started gif watermarking. You get a full page watermark overlapping the page that goes on and off. Happens so frequently that I have to take it into something to turn it off just to be able to read the damn thing. Watermarking is fine. But some groups are taking it TOO far. They're trying to counter those online readers and such (to follow their rules for their releases), but they can't use their heads on it.
Personally I like watermarks on my manga. It makes me notice that the scanlator group is trying to give me a message since I don't visit their site or check their credits page, hiring page, notice page.
I don't think I would have noticed it otherwise.
Of course when I see the watermarks, read the message they got, then I go and troll them. Cuz you know...I read their message what more do they want? I'm too busy to support them or to help them out so I rather go and troll them since it takes more time but it's fun to get all my anger out on them instead of the mangaonline readers that annoy them and which may cause the group to die.
Heh, like they got something to say, they should just give me my chapters because it's my right to get them. Without me they wouldn't have any readers and they wouldn't be able to scanlate anymore. They should thank me for that. Heck they should do it on the watermarks. I approve this!
I couldn't have phrased it better^^
The next news just prove my point
Welcome to the future you made yourself while saying that the scanlators are idiots.
I prefer watermarks to those rather weird demands of posting 20+ posts a week to get a release. (Doko Demo Doa anyone)
I really don't have anything to say most of the time, so I have a lot of problems to compose those posts in a way that they won't be considered a spam. And let's be realistic. Those watermarks you get on a release from Japanzai isn't really so bad, that you need to use some special device to read the chapter.
Grind your teeth and stop complaining. You get it for free, you know.
In reality those high posting demands are a form of extracting payment from leechers.
"If you keep my personal forum active, I will pay you with releases."
It's pure bartering, and it's highly unethical in regards to scanlation.
Well the real extracting payment is the donation button if you ask me
The thing that bothers me about watermarks isn't their obtrusiveness, but the fact that the scanlator is implying ownership of the translated work.
Credit pages are fine because they're simply informing a reader of the group's composition and views, but a watermark is a brand that says "this is ours".
And of course the real owners of the work are the mangaka's and publishers.
No matter how much effort and personal funds the scanlators invest in the scanlation, it is not theirs.
If they truly believe that it is theirs, then it's time to leave scanlation, as their argument is equivalent to that of a forger's or a patent thief's private critique.
Watermarks are going to end up hurting scanlation like online readers. Both are currently waving red flags at the copyright holders.
This. Also if you are going to read manga from crappy online readers, then you probably don't care who did what anyways.
Scanlators don't watermark to say "THIS IS MINE".
They watermark it because Mangafox and Co. do that. And it's not right.
We scanlators provide a free fan service. Mangafox and Co. don't do that. They make money off our hobby. Quite shamelessly and a ton. That's not right.
The actual intent may be to deter online readers, but it still implies ownership.
Saying "We created this scanlation, therefore we can dictate where it can and cannot be hosted" really is insinuating proprietary rights on the behalf of the scanlator.
Now don't get me wrong, I loathe online readers, they're the worst possible way to read manga (aside from web comics).
I also think Mangafox, MangaHere, etcetera are a pack of thieves (the fact that Batoto pays scanlators revenue bothers me too), but watermarks are not the way to fight them. Trolling fans with unreadable releases is not the way to fight them either.
Watermarks are the scanlator version of SOPA and PIPA. They're pissing off fans, implying proprietary rights, and are ultimately ineffective.
Is there an American law student that can chime in on this? I'm afraid my knowledge is limited to Canadian law.
Watermarks are in no way similar to SOPA/PIPA. They are more like an identifier, or branding mark. Mainly to let others know that they were the ones that scanlated that chapter (there are series scanlated by many different groups).
It does help deter some cases similar to Tazmo. Most of them aren't implying rights to the work....but to simply note that they were the ones to provide that scanlated release.
Though the groups trying to release ONLY to an online reader where they get paid for it ARE in fact bordering on rights infringement.
The main problem is that groups are experimenting to find a way similar to watermarking in order to control their releases. I recently came across one where you had to unzip the file then open in a web browser or the pages would be out of order. (Kinda stupid since all the material was ALREADY downloaded). Also watermarks that blink on/off are REALLY annoying.....especially the ones that cover 1/4 of the page making it nearly unreadable).
Just to clarify, when I said watermarks were similar to SOPA/PIPA, I was referring to the response that they elicited in the online community, and their ineffectiveness in regards to the problem their addressing;
not that two stalled federal bills on piracy are the same thing as a watermark on a comics page.
If it seems that scanlators are "dictating" with watermarks then only because there is no other way for us to appeal.
We have been appealing to the public for a long time now. It all started with just warnings on the release post. Followed by short instruction on the credit page. Does any of that worked? No.
I started to include a "warning page" to every release with my translation. Does that work? No. Reader just skip that or the reader in question just removes that page. So much for that.
The only way left for us is to use the actual manga pages.
We're doing this for free. for fans.
But we can't tolerate it when some third-party is claiming our work as theirs or even profiting of it.
We all know how convenient mangafox is with all the manga in one place, but that's no excuse...
I beg your pardon, but is it really so? Maybe you really do it with this intention, but I don't think this can be said about all or even most scanlation community.
The aforementioned Soba-scans watermark all of their releases (all pages) whilst not all of it make a way to mangafox ('cause hentai). Hidoi Translations watermarked theirs with some pokestamps from the very beginning, well before this drama with "MaFo" really started. And there was (and is) more groups who done it. Are they all was/is fighting online readers? Even back in early 2000th like MangaArt or Condensation (although their stamps was much less intrusive)? Nonsense.
So please, PROzess, say for yourself. Some (majority, I think, especially in the past and many will in the future, regardless of agregators existance) scanlators watermark exactly to say "THIS IS MINE".
Yes the real owners of the work are the mangakas and the publishers; this fact is undisputable. But that also means that non-paying readers do not have the right to said work. No leecher has the right to complain about not enjoying (free and illegal) manga at 100% the way he/she wants it unless he/she stops being a leecher and legally obtains manga by buying the it from the publishers.
The problem is most people see scanlation as an end. It's not. It's nothing more than a stopgap until
1. The series gets licensed
2. The reader learns nihonggo and imports from Japan
Leechers can make a long list of excuses as to why they can't legally obtain their manga but at the end of the day they're still excuses. The fact remains that the ball is in the reader's hands; they either choose to buy their manga or suck it up and make do with what the scanlators provide.
And if the series NEVER gets licensed and the reader NEVER learns nihonggo, sucks to be them right?
Unless you're fluent in nihonggo and you live in Japan and/or possess a comfortable economic position; the ball is ultimately NOT in the reader's hands.
Again, those are just excuses. If you really wanted it you would work for it. If you can't/don't, then you have no right to complain about what the scanlators give you FOR FREE.
Not my point. My point is the power is ultimately in the hands of the supplier.
If Japanese publishing companies say "screw you America!", non-nihonggo reading Americans are shit outta luck. Thats it. End of discussion.
Scanlators are an just another type form of supplier. If the (sole) scanlation group for a manga decides to ragequit(/the staff quits/whatever), non-nihonggo readers are shit outta luck. Thats it. End of discussion.
Got the money but don't know nihonggo? You're shit outta luck (unless you're rich enough to fund a translation/scanlation group).
You still don't get it. English distributors/scanlators call it quits? LEARN NIHONGGO.
That's actually my plan: I'm currently teaching myself how to read and write hiragana and katakana (free resources are available online), then I plan to import raw shounen manga tanks to help me study kanji. Eventually I'll move on to seinen manga.
Five (to my count) birds with one stone:
1. I get to read manga.
2. I get to read manga in the manner the mangaka intends me to (nothing lost due to translation)
3. I get to read manga that have no hope of seeing the light of day outside Japan; no second/third party to limit my choices.
4. I get to read manga legally. I directly support the mangakas and publishers by buying tanks.
5. I obtain my (currently) third language; thanks to my hobby my resumé is more attractive.
There are simply no excuses.
Um ok? Then you basically want us to go back to the early-internet days when no one shared mangas because it was obviously unethical to share Japanese manga with Japanese-fluent readers and there wasn't the excuse of "we're translating it into English to broaden the audience!".
If you know Japanese, why are you downloading them/reading them online in the first place? BUY THE MANGA YOU PIRATE!
Um... Comprehension skills FAIL. You're putting words into my mouth; goes to show how much you actually understand what I'm trying to say.
No, you fail to realize what telling everyone "just learn nihonggo" would actually mean for the scanlation community.
If everyone knew nihonggo, there would be absolutely no justification for scanlated manga.
Go ahead, justify to me why ANYONE would scanlate manga if everyone knew Japanese.
*sigh* I thought I already mentioned that scanlation is just supposed to be a stopgap? Someone really needs to learn how to read.
A stopgap for what? For people to learn nihonggo? Have you even thought this through? Anyone who gets into the scene early learns nihonggo and obtains their manga legitimately, scanlators stop scanlating because demand dries up and anyone else who comes afterwards is shit outta luck.
Congrats, you've solved nothing. Hardcore fans like you tell the newbie, non-nihonggo newcomers to "LEARN NIHONGGO!" while the more sympathetic fan resume scanlation efforts restarting the whole argument again.
Unless you want to believe that manga companies will one day localize all manga, in a timely manner, you're not solving anything.
So you're ultimately trying to justify an illegal endeavor. Congratulations.
Its not illegal if its not licensed in your country. Nice try.
This isn't a post full of rage, but why the heck are you guys spelling 日本語 as "nihonggo" instead of "nihongo"?
lmao! Best reply in this conversation!
But if what they promised to give you for free was defaced beyond recognition with curses aimed at some unrelated third party, should you be grateful? See A-team for an example.
Scanner - "Here, have some delicious free cake, but don't share it with that weasel Johnny"
Leech - "Ooooo, thanks"
Leech - "Hey! did you poop on this?!"
Scanner - "Yup, somebodies been sharing with Johnny, so I've been pooping on each piece in case Johnny gets his hands on it.
Leech - "You dick, you promised me free cake, but you pooped on it"
Scanner - "Sigh, there's just no gratitude. I worked hard to bake that cake, the original ingredients were delicious, leeches like you get something for nothing and then all you do is complain."
Leech - "But you smothered it in feces, why should I thank you?"
Scanner - "You shared with Johnny, until he's gone I'm pooping on all the cake"
Leech - "But I never shared..."
Scanner - "You're all the same, ungrateful wretches. Stop Johnny and I won't poop on cake anymore"
Leech - "You can keep your bloody cake, you @$+#!"
Leech - "That scan guy's a jerk, he's promising free cake, but befouling it before he serves it to you"
Sycophant - "you have no right to complain about what the scanlators give you FOR FREE."
oh I agree...but Johnny was still earning money on the cake by selling it to Africans instead of giving it out free. Now he can't get rich
Plus if you don't like free cakes with poops no one is telling you to come back and whine about it or for that sake keep coming back and complaining about it because no one else is making the same cake. It doesn't mean that the poop goes away, it only means that there will be smellier poops on the cake the more you complain instead of doing something about Johnny.
Can we stop this analogy?
It's rather sickening...
LOL, actually, his analogy is quite funny and accurate. Only an idiot would thank someone for a 'free,' poop-filled cake.
Johnny does not care; he is still putting his own shit on the cake and selling it. He is not the one eating it, after all.
Some people need to think before doing low-quality work. They are giving less incentive to those better in what they do.
Beggars can't be chosers.
And you really should stop acting as if scanlators were forcing you to read their work.
Again, everyone should be reading LEGALLY. You can either do that by buying official English translations or learning nihonggo then importing raw manga from Japan. If you can't do either option (for whatever excuse you have) then you resort to illegal methods: scanlation. That or you don't read manga at all.
At the end of the day no one is forcing you to do anything. Don't want watermarks? Then don't read scanlations and purchase your manga legally. You don't want watermarks but don't have money to buy legal manga? It's your loss.
Don't really mind watermarks, as long as they're in a blank part of the page or something (not covering anything up). Preferably black and white so they don't detract from an image. Even more preferable if they're just text wedged between two panels or something. I agree that scanlators should protect what they have done, but not so much that I can barely stand reading them. Credit pages are nice too, as long as there aren't 1398098 of them.
I agree, although I don't like watermarks, I understand why some scanlators put them (nobody likes seeing someone else claiming their work), but putting watermark on a characters face (I mean, MAIN characters face), or even across whole page (Doko Demo Doa, I'm looking at you!), and even over text boxes (why translate if you gonna hide text?) is... confusing...
As I said, I understand why use watermarks, but just pasting them on page without looking what will end "under them" is like what online readers do...
Watermarks are fine no matter how big or small.
I consider watermarks immoral and don't think it does anything to stop jerks like Mangafox. Have Mangafox slowed down at all since groups started using these watermarks? Nope, they've just opened another site which completely ignores the requests of scanlators. Watermarks punish readers who download or read it from the scanlator and the art is not the scanlator's work to claim to begin with. There are other better ways to fight against Mangafox and NOEZ and their ilk.
The closest thing to a watermark I can see as acceptable is a note in the margins pointing readers to Batoto or the scanlator website, but honestly I think even that is pushing it. A scanlator's job should be to deliver an immersive experience, not constantly pull the readers out of the zone by forcing scanlation politics in their face.
Why do you read scanlations then?
Scanlations can be somewhat ethical, as long as they:
a) Only scanlate titles not currently available in english, and cease scanlation the moment a title becomes available in english.
b) Accept no monies whatsoever, from any source, for the scanlation itself (ie; Depositfiles payoffs, Batoto revenue, commissions).
c) Do not assert ownership over any part of the finished scanlation.
Or they can just stop everything and pack their bag. As long as they are releasing the scanlation, might as well be immoral or just plain ilegal. Anything that doesn't help the publisher and mangaka are all immoral. Some even wrote who they don't ant to see scanlation of their work online.
Not money whatsoever, then tell all readers site to just die then everything can follow the by fan for fan concept with no money invovle.
I may be misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but if you're saying scanlators should quit scanlating if what they're doing hurts the mangaka, then I certainly agree with you.
It's not like we want to assert ownership on our chapters.
The problem is that mangafox did it in the past. Currently they have changed their watermark and leave the credit pages in, But that was different before. They removed creditpage and their watermark at the bottom said "If you're reading this elsewhere than mangafox you're wrong" or similiar.
Because of such actions, the majority of readers thinks that mangafox is doing the actual work of the manga. They go to mangafox and request faster release.
But us, the scanlators. are not getting any help. How do you think we are going to continue if more people retire than new people come!?
We don't want to slap it into the reader's face that these are OUR chapters. We just want to convey to them that WE spend hours of our free time for them and would appreciate a bit of thanks or help.
And then to top things of, Mangafox makes a profit from it. Come on, you see the point here...
Much what philip72 said... Realistically most manga will never receive an official translation so I don't see scanlation as inherently immoral unless you start laying claim to scans or trying to make money off of it. Even if scanlations didn't exist, I doubt the markets overseas would be big enough for a lot of the more obscure and potentially controversial stuff out there. You think an American publisher would release Yomeiro-Choice or Iinari! Aiburation? Probably not.
If you don't want watermark, then go in buy the actual copy.
I'm find with water mark, it just encourage those who want to own high quality version to buy the book, thus helping the mangaka out. For reading it for free, reader shouldn't complain too much, and if they really like the story, and want high quality version, buying it should be the way to go. scanlation is only to promote unknown/known story to promote awareness. Look at chinese scanlation and you'll see how much they water mark it, english scanlation is nothing compare to their.
By the way, I don't think that readers/leecher should dictate how they perceive scanlation, that is for the scanlation community to decide. Those who do the actual work are the one with more powerful voice. Not everything in the world if free, only receiving and not giving.
Note: the reason why Mangafox haven't slow down their release is because they are using bot to download release from other manga reader site into their, that include batoto. this is even more immoral.
I do buy manga and I don't even really read scanlations. However I do some scanlations myself (look up XLG; I was involved with pretty much everything we've released) so I inevitably hear about this kind of stuff. I disagree with what you see as the purpose of scanlation since the majority of manga will never be released outside of Japan and I don't care if what the Chinese do is worse. We don't have to be like that, and we weren't until a year or two ago.
since you've already read it, the scanlation, might as well just buy the japanese copy to help the author out. Saying that you can't buy the actual manga in any way are all excuse for not buying and just wanting to read free high quality scans.
scanlation aren't to compete with publisher by releasing high quality scan too, this will only deter the reader from buying the actual book(both soft and hard copy). therefore, I fully support any form of degration on the scan itself to make it a lower quality one. this will incite leecher to contribute. Human naturally tend to want the best of the best, aka greed.
With regard the watermark, frankly anything goes as long as the scanlator doesn't said it "explicably" that they own it. Everything else is all in the grey zone, though some reader interpret it negatively.
As well, if you don't want watermarking, you should file you complaint on online reader site, it funny how they are still alive with nothing happening to them. They are the source of watermarking. Thank to them, many reader would stop going to the actual site to get the release and this can also by perceive negatively by the scanlator.
e.g., Scanlator: Why should I/we continue to scanlate when hardly anyone coming to the site. Maybe this just show not many people like this manga so we should stop. Maybe watermarking will tell the reader who did the actual work and they'll come here instead of thanking those ungrateful uploader who unload it to the reader site. Or we can just stop scanlating the manga.
As will the concept of "" is too linear/outdated to work in this scenario when it doesn't take other who make money from the fanwork into consideration.
Leecher should just be happy that nowadays it easier to grab the release than before when scanlator request contributing to forum, invites only etc... Although, to counter the aggregate site, more and more public scanlator are going semi to private just to prevent their release from entering the aggregator site. this will be a worser scenario that leecher hate when compare to this small watermarking. As well, they will request that their release not to be listed on mangaupdate (another counter measure), thus it be harder to find their existence.
ru trying to troll? or ru just that thick-headed
The worst offenders for WM are A-team and Japanzai, I read mangas/manhwas from A-team and Japanzai do i feel like being punished ummm no? both of them release a UN-WM later, i can wait a week or 2 unlike other people (whiny leechers) but also i can drink the delicious tears of butt-hurt leechers
so its all gd for me. You say there are better ways to fight them but yet you dont give any ideas hypocrite much. the only other way i can see to fight them is the whole scanlation community dont release anything for months since they would get no traffic therefore no money but will that ever happen i dont think so. then the other route is more gray, you try to overload their server therefore breaking or try ways to bring down their site sooooooooooooo yeah WMing sounds a lot better to me atm <.<
immersive experience <== what ur just saying your too lazy or u want to have it now. If you want an truely "immersive experience" u can just wait a couple of days but most leechers are whiny/impatient brats and can't wait a couple of days to get UN-WM version. Siiiiiiiiiiiiigh people these days want everything instant :/
I couldn't really read most of your post, but I don't actually read scanlations for the most part, so no, it's not because I "want it now." By "immersive" I mean that throwing in notes about the real world takes readers out of the world they're creating for themselves when they're reading, yanking them back to reality.
you only read my last part sigh. i guess ill just do some small bullet points for you
I havent had that much of a problem with WM at all so idk why its a problem in general and from what you say everyone dislikes WM since it pulls them out their zone which is not true since im also a reader.
Your making assumptions which annoys me, at least put some/most readers, I dont like being grouped with certain people when im not part of the group.
If I want an "immersive experience" ill just read it normally by buying which I do if I really like the series.
Most of the people are just complaining about WM from A-team and Japanzai IMO cause all of other groups do it very small or very un-noticeable. But both groups release UN-WM later so I dont see the major problem with those two.
What annoyed me the most is you say there are other ways to fight NOEZ but you dont give a single suggestion, at least give an idea even if its over the top but you dont which just makes you sound like hypocrite just saying.
All in all im probably flaming you since you talk like you know what's right when there isnt really a right or wrong thing in WMing, Did i say WMing is a good/bad thing, no. It's just as long as i get to read the manga that isn't sold in my area or isnt translated I'm happy why can't other people be just happy from that? Why do they need more than that, just why can't they be happy with what they got? ( I blame capitalism/consumerism =P (jking sort of))
Other less obnoxious ways to fight NOEZ include just putting a note in the credits page, supporting a site like Batoto, or having your own reader with series you do on your own site. These may not seem like much, but hey, it's not like watermarks have accomplished anything other than making a bunch of people mad.
but they take out the credits page? well from what other people say they take out the notes since i dont read from MF or any NOEZ places so dont know. wait sec ill go check hmmm they dont for some of the sites from NOEZ but idk a person i talked to knew about batoto but didnt go there since s/he was lazy. Also isnt one of the reason some groups started WMing is cause they took out their credit page?
Another person i met just didnt know about mangaupdates nor was s/he interested in going to read from a different site. *shrugs* and a good amount of people dont even read credit pages ):
thats why i actually like what Japanzai did when they put that fading watermark if you read from batoto but idk some people actually complained about that too even though it had no WM in batoto. If groups WM like japanzai i wouldnt mind since i read from batoto or from their site. But yeah Prozess is doing what you say but idk it doesnt seem to have much affect but ill never know unless someone knows the traffic
No wrong. The other site was what really started the watermarks since the request to delay a few days or to not put up titles were totally ignored. The acted like they did it on mangafox while they put it up on mangahere instead.
Please get your facts right before you argument...ignorance is shown very quick when talking to knowledgeable people.
And why do they have the delay request? To make money? I don't think that's right either.
It's their own decision to make though. If they want the delay done then let it be. Different groups could have different reasons for it.
There's not always a clear cut reason. If they want a 24 hour wait then just wait it out.
After all......you piss a group off enough.....they WILL just stop (it happens).
Just accept it as is.
I just don't think it's right for a scanlator to lay exclusive claim to something they've technically already pirated to begin with. I dislike reader sites and would like to see them gone, but watermarks do nothing to stop them. I can see from comments here that they're just used by people desperate for attention.
They aren't laying claim to that chapter. They are laying claim to their scanlation of that chapter.
And watermarks DO at least help to prevent others from taking credit for the release (which happens....Tazmo anybody?). If you went through the trouble making something.....would you be able to sit back when someone just grabbed it and said "look what I made".
It doesn't really have anything to do with people wanting attention (in most cases). Groups just don't like being used in ways (it can be really disrespectful and ignorant).
We want the readers to come our page for support, not for money,
How are we going to get any new recruits, when people just think the chapters appear magically on mangafox?
So much retarded in this article.
I've always wondered why articles on scanlator ethnics are even posted.
I'm not surprised at how high the no's are... I'm surprised at how l ow they are.
I don't care about watermarks as long as they don't obscure the art or speech bubbles. It's annoying when they do, but I usually just shrug my shoulders and deal with it. It's pretty hard to complain about free manga unless the quality makes it unreadable.
100% agree, as long as it's readable, reader shouldn't complain too much about it.
When watermarks become a problem between scanlators and readers, unless rightfully justified, it usually means the former's demise.
Take your pick on the reasons why this happens.
Online mangareaders...that why....oh and other people trying to earn money on free stuff.
It's more than that. You forgot that it forces the scanlators into being accomplices in the reader sites' scheme of piracy for profit. The scanlators do not want any part of a profit scheme. When lawsuits are filed, the chinese run reader sites will remain immune, but because the scanlators were forced to be involved, they get attacked by law enforcement.
Personally as a reader, watermarks don't matter to me as long as they don't block up huge portions of the page. If I can read it, then whatever. I don't care.
But as a scanlator, I don't put watermarks on because really, I don't see a reason to do so. I just don't care about what people really do about my releases. People will throw them up onto online readers. There's no stopping that at all.
YEs, I love watermarks. I love them all over the page, covering drawings. And even the text. The more the better.
You aren't called sarcasm, you are called silent killer. Did you forget your name?
Exactly, everyone that picked an option other than the first on the poll is a troll, which is a good 70% of voters. Ridiculous poll, if you ask me.
Opaque watermarks are annoying. Doko Demo Doa had those ridiculously huge watermarks as big as the page, covering faces and the text. Something like that makes no sense to a scanlation, it's like providing blank pages with few letters and strokes.
I'm fine with watermarks outside of the boxes.
Marks on the water?
I don't mind them at all. Readers have zero right to complain. If you don't like the watermark translate it yourself. Readers today are to greedy and lazy
lmao, watermark over stuff so we can claim it as our own? So much retarded in this thread that i was laughing all the way. Alright, we at japanzai watermark the chapters we releases and then we release a unwatermark version within 24 hours. So do we claim it as our own? Are you people even know how retarded that accusation is? I can't even related why the hell is such a stupid poll and stupid topic in here in the first place lmao. Dang, i wasted 5 mins of my life, i guess i'm an idiot too lol
The leechers make that false accusation because they otherwise have little else to say that has any heft to it. So they just lash out with false accusations of this or that. Some of these leechers are the cliche "Fans From Hell" types. No question about it.
whoever shouldn't watermark on manga because it's don't belong to us. When you put on watermark on manga, it does make like you own that series, which you are not, dont tell me its because of mangafox/mangareader, there is only solved, STOP SCANLATIONS.
Sorry, i believe we shouldn't watermark on any manga :/
aww Kajii, are you still butthurt over our little quarrel on IRC? aw, don't take it here man, *eh i'm sorry?* if i said that would you stop being butthurt and stuff? joke asides, we never said the manga belong to us nor will we ever (unless we manage to get a license of course), and it's only people like you who love to assume so (without any proof) and that's why threads like this keep popping up.
Personal message for Kajii: it's because of people like you scanlation is dying and dying, how many titles have you lost over the year? how many members you have lost over the year? I could clearly remember the day you were releasing 3-4 chapters of manga a day and you were laughing, bragging and saying in my face "your group better merge into Imangascans" thingy. I'm glad i was mad and kicked you out of IRC that day because had we merged into your group, i don't know how many releases of manga would have been lost because of your * excellent* leadership and attitude. I refuse to be a dying scanlator like you, dude, and stop trying to demotivate me, you can't.
The horse is high when you're sitting on it, no matter which side of the fence you're on. Watermarks are a control mechanism for a lot of groups, regardless if things get uploaded to awful online readers. It's amusing hubris to think that, once something leaves your hands, you can control distribution. Seriously, if you could control things once distributed, record companies, manga companies, hell even book publishers wouldn't have been rampaging for YEARS to try and stop it. Even MegaUpload, Fileserve and all its buddies, and upload.to going down in flames hasn't stopped distro of anything. Bittorrent and IRC still keep pirating alive and well.
SO, why do scalators try so hard to control things?
*sigh* I mean, isn't it exhausting to do that for every release, all the time? And to blow gaskets and threaten to decamp because someone (random leecher) broke ranks and posted it on mangafox or where ever? (I find this extremely childish.)
I don't get this endless effort to stamp everything. It feels like third graders putting their names on everything so their little sister doesn't get it or something. It feels like stress and effort that I could put into real issues in my real life, rather than flipping out because the Internet crowd fails to obey me. Hell, if it's about obeisance, just being a scanlator is the first step into that crack of hypocritical hell. Who are we obeying by taking other's works and reworking it, then getting indignant at others for doing the same? We don't obey the law, who are we to get angry at others for not listening? Because it's OUR law, and not some faceless company's?
Well, I really don't care either way. I don't read works by groups I find really watermarks really annoying on. There are hundreds and hundreds of titles out in the world WITHOUT the watermark, and I can live quite well without those titles. If I REALLY need to read something, screw it. I'll buy the book.
Seriously, to quote Serenity, "You can't stop the signal." If you really don't want it floating on the Internet waves, don't ever let it leave your hands. That's the best control mechanism ever.
Watermarks become used quite often because of all the commotion before caused by the actions of people in the community in the past (Tazmo and others for example).
And I fully endorse following the groups rules. If someone if they just don't want it posted by others....or want that timeframe then fine. If someone really has a problem following those rules by the group......then don't read their release.....read from another group.
It's not hypocritical. And following their rules is a simple sign of respect for the group who has taken the time and effort to scanlate it.
"And following their rules is a simple sign of respect for the group who has taken the time and effort to scanlate it." Yeah, you are right is the same sign of respect that scanlators do to the mangaka, you know they take their hard work drawing and writing a story, then some random kid in the other side of the world, scan, clean and translate said work and then to show how much respect he have for the mangaka and his work, the kid put a nice watermark with his name all over the mangaka work because is not enough that he stole their work. That's the bigger sign of respect the kid can show, what a nice kid ¬.¬.
You fail to see the point of what a watermark in scanlation IS.
It's NOT a sign of property ownership. It's more like the employee ID number on a sales receipt.
THAT is what watermarks in scanlation mean.
People here seem to be very confused about something. Scanlators do not watermark manga to claim that it is their property. They are watermarking manga to show that it is a free scanlation because aggregators are taking that manga and claiming it is their property. Mangafox watermarks all manga like it owns them, but I don't see anyone hating on mangafox's watermarks. Leechers are just hating on scanlators who decide to put a mark that "hey, no, aggregators like Mangafox" did not translate this manga and do not own this manga. Sadly, this concept seems to escape many, and they demonize the scanlators that are actually bringing them the product and worshiping aggregators that don't really do anything else take other people's work and claim it as their own.
Yeah, guys, you're all giving us manga/anime fans such a stellar reputation. Keep up the good work.
Besides, many watermarks are quite nicely designed and you can tell thought went into it. I'd be happy to see large watermarks on all the free manga on the internet.
You must be a friggin genius (no sarcasm here). This is exactly what many people are trying to express (but being ignored by stubborn people who if you read their posts you can't understand WHY they are at this forum and reading manga online to begin with....).
I personally don't mind watermarks, unless they start obstructing the translated text itself.
But I really don't get it people. Why the hell are you arguing over whether or not the manga should be watermarked?
Mangafox is in no position to watermark anything, that's for sure. But the scanlators? If they want to watermark something to show that the scanlation is free/that it is translated by them, go ahead.
To those few sitting on their pedestrals commenting about how scanlations should not be obstructed by watermarks, regardless or how big or small they are, seeing as it is meant to be read. NEWSFLASH PEOPLE, the scanlators are under no obligation to translate for you. Most of them do it as a hobby. They have their own lives out of the internet as well, you know?
They can just as easily wipe their hands off the whole thing and say, "Mangafox is making money out of something that I spent so much time on? Screw this." Then pack their bag, walk off, close their website and break up the team. And we would be up a shit creek without a paddle.
Please keep this in mind when you think you have the rights to criticise/dictate how some teams does their scanlations.
The dependence argument implies the existence of at least two factions, the ones being depended upon and the ones who depend of.
Don't keep marking the line between scanlators and readers, it really doesn't exist.
A reminder to all of you, we are all equal, we have opinions of our own and the same rights, as everybody, to impose them on everyone's work.
We're supposed to share a common interest, to protect the non-profit integrity of the work we all enjoy, aggregators ignore such integrity, so they must be dealt with.
Not everybody's going to agree with our ideal, yet they have the right to say that, like we do.
I like the "shit creek without a paddle" analogy you brought up, since it can also describe how we'll have to get our hands dirty and in coordination to row to the end of the creek.
Watermarks? You have to be reasonable in how you advertise. They don't seem to do their intended job: raising *positive* awareness towards "scanlators". How about trying something different? Like a "support the scanlator" thread in an aggregator's forum, (WITHOUT discrediting the aggregator itself, you have to know how to play ball intelligently). Any other ideas?
Exactly. People don't seem to understand that they are blowing things WAY out of proportion.
It's doesn't even matter if someone thinks it's right or wrong......it's a decision to be made by the scanlator and nobody else. It's just that simple. People are just for some reason trying to drag it out into other points.
Well, it really depends on the watermark. Generally I don't really care where it is. But there are certain groups (I won't mention names) that have utterly ridiculous watermarks that cover a good part of the page.
People complaining about the watermarks and credits pages should perhaps try to think a little about the entire scanlation process. It's true, we as scanlators don't have any real proprietary rights to a series and we never claimed to do so. What we do claim rights to however is the hours of hard work that goes into each release, it is downright infuriating to put hard work into a release only to not get credited for said work or to even have someone else claim credit for your work.
Also I read that some people here don't agree with the fact that batoto provides scanlators with some revenue. First of all let's set things straight, batoto doesn't pay us anything. They allow us to add our own google adsense to our releases. Well why would scanlators need revenue, I see you wonder. Do you think raws are free? Do you think servers are free? No they're not, in fact costs can be quite high if you add everything up and while you're happily reading your free manga, we're just trying to make ends meet. When other aggregator websites then simply take what we work on, in some cases remove any reference back to the scanlators, simply to make a ton of money off of it while denying us a way to pay for the magazines and keep the servers running, then yeah one does consider adding watermarks.
We could just simply say "meh, fuck it". I'd love to see how many of the readers would then actually pay every week to import the magazines, getting it days after we normally release it, untranslated. My guess is, not many.
i have to agree on Haiiro. buying raws are NOT FREE. servers are NOT FREE. scanlators needs to pay their server every month and even we say that Manga/Magazine is cheap, the shipping cost is too Expensive. so i think we should appreciate what scanlators release (even it has watermarks) since we can read translated manga for free and they do it for free. if others dont like watermarks, then its not scanlators problem anymore. thats their problem anymore