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News Article
MangaStream Drops VIZ Media Licensed Series
Super Gotenks writes: February 11th, 2012

Dear MangaStream supporter,

It's with a heavy heart that I make the following announcement. MangaStream will no longer be
releasing the following series:

- Naruto
- Bleach
- One Piece
- Hunter x Hunter
- Kateikyoushi Hitman Reborn!
- Claymore
- D.Gray-man

VIZ Media has demanded that we end our scanlation work for all of the above. This comes despite
our best efforts to pursuade fans into supporting official distributors by being the only group to
actively prevent an archive from forming on their website through the removal of chapters that are
older than a couple weeks. They've succeeded in little more than invoking inconvenience to the
community as their digital magazine missed the mark; it runs several issues behind and only
features 3 of the above series. So long as their product continues to be slow, awkward and inferior to
something a ragtag group of nobodies can churn out in a few hours - fans will continue to look to
scanlation groups and aggregators for their weekly fix.

The aggressive and escalating nature of their threats have forced our hand into removing the content.
MangaStream will no longer be posting full scanlations for any of the aforementioned series, we will
instead focus our efforts onto the series we do that are not licensed by VIZ Media (you can assume
everything currently on our directory will be continued).

http://mangastream.com/content/jump
Posted by lambchopsil on February 12th 7:22am Comments ( 170 )  [ View ]  [ Add ]
Comments

» RevanRevanchist on February 12th, 2012, 1:31am

I'm quite sorry to hear that, as I've been a long time reader of several of these series on MangaStream. Hopefully the VIZ sales will drop because of this.

thread

» geowrian on February 12th, 2012, 2:07am

I hate to say it, but I agree. They put out pretty poor quality releases, and are slow at doing so. The fact that a small group of users can do it incredibly faster and do it better in the process, for no profit, is crazy. Maybe they think people will flock to their releases now, but I don't foresee anybody doing that. The people that want to buy their releases are already doing so.

thread

» VawX on February 12th, 2012, 2:25am

For every point you said, I can't agree more mmm...
The fact that not just Viz but other licenser actually sell something with worse in quality and speed than a single team can do is really a shame mmm...

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» Lynkz on February 12th, 2012, 2:37am

i fully agree, no hate involved. i've never bought anything by viz. i learned japanese for the sole purpose being that manga and anime import companies are horrible at their job, and i didn't know about scanlators back then. today, i mainly read scanlations to basically double check if i read it right. ^^;

this is a big hit to others though. it's sad to see MS stop those mainstream series due to corporate bullying... sheesh, if you want people to buy your stuff then produce material worth buying...

thread

» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 7:38am

You do know that if they drop too much then they will just drop the title but since it's owned by Owned by three of Japan's largest creators and licensors of manga and animation, Shueisha Inc., Shogakukan Inc., and Shogakukan-Shueisha Productions, Co., Ltd. so if the titles drops too much even in japan they just axe the title, like they usually do.

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» derpMonster on February 12th, 2012, 4:56pm

How about you go brush up on your horrible English before making an antagonistic retort to almost every comment on the threads here ^~^? Or don't have anything better to do than sound like a buttmad 12 year old on the internet?

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» Seijurou on February 12th, 2012, 5:18pm

Haha, he is just mad at online manga readers, because he used to translate manga (with the group Shi-Ki, I believe, which closed down in a fit towards this subject), and now he directs his anger at those who use and support aggregators: in his eyes, everyone that likes scanlations.

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» T1 on February 13th, 2012, 12:26pm

Nah, only those who earns money on it. I support free stuff for everyone, just not those who earns money on scanlating...which should be a hobby and show the love for the mangaka's work.

Still I be mad, rawrrr
/me bites you for finding out

thread

» T1 on February 13th, 2012, 12:25pm

I think you should go out and know what it is people are talking about. What I've found out from people talking here on this topic is:

They don't know what VIZ media is but still talks about it.
They don't know who VIZ is owned by and still talk about it.
They don't know what a license it but still talks about it.
They got a funny idea that MangaStream got nothing out of their releases on their online reader.

I bet you are one of those too. Talking about crap you don't know shit about. So yes, my english may be quite horrible but at least I do know what I am talking as one of the few ones on this topic.^^

thread

» Verito.S on February 12th, 2012, 12:14pm

Jezz, I hope that the company goes to bankruptcy, but that's just mean of me... (but I still hope it)

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 12:58pm

so you actually hope that all 3 companies for VIZ goes down and.....what would that do? Try checking out all the titles they release and you will understand how big they really are....jeeeezzz..

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» ali3rd on February 12th, 2012, 4:55pm

i think he meant for VIZ to go bankrupt, and i would rather buy manga in japanese(even with shipping its still cheaper), thats the main reason i learned japanese.

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» dragon1024 on February 12th, 2012, 2:30am

They probably should have hired some of the scanlators from mangstream to help them make releases faster and cheaper than what they have been doing.

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» derpMonster on February 12th, 2012, 2:31am

now the lesser known titles can get some more love ;_;. Other than that, if viz can somehow match japan's release speed with an ad supported manga reader for people who can't buy (WITH NO COUNTRY BLOCKING, CHRIST, THE INTERNET HAS NO BORDERS) and paid weekly downloads like their sublime titles, it'll be nice... Most people have a credit, debit card or paypal.

thread

» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 7:36am

Internet has borders, Japan showed that with the Rapelay incident. biggrin

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» Saracin on February 12th, 2012, 2:51am

This really doesn't change anything. Some other group will start doing it, or people will just post their work on IRC. If they really wanted to hurt someone they should go after the manga reader sites and see what happens instead of the real fans who just want to enjoy the Jump series'.

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 7:35am

Ya, but the problem is that until China doesn't join ACTA/SOPA/PIPA/EAR they can't really do anything about mangareaders placed in China like mangafox^^

thread

» yuno19 on February 12th, 2012, 9:05am

your logic isn't faulty at all. but at practice, your statement is naive.

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 9:27am

Indeed it is naive. Just until! We need more international pressure xD

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» Saracin on February 13th, 2012, 1:46pm

Ah, but if we America can find an excuse to take down MegaUpload, then we'll find a way to take down Mangafox. If we think they are taking money from us, then we'll spend shitloads more to shut them down. I'm sure there's some logic in that plan.

thread

» shinshuu on February 14th, 2012, 5:29pm

megaupload cost u.s billions of collar per year, whereas manga is a small niche. on a scale of priority, manga site is no where near those entertainment and pirated sit.

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» RiK.dfs on February 15th, 2012, 7:52am

Before you go into this "relationship" look into the FULL FACTS over the Megaupload incident....it wasn't about a whole load of obvious illegal activity (not just with file storage) by their company and they barely tried to hide it.

And VIZ is the company involved here.....not a country. (And VIZ is japanese owned so don't start an anti-american BS off this......been too much of that already). It's the publisher's (companies) who would go after these sites. If they brought it to the courts enough then the government might get involved.....but ONLY if it gets large enough to warrant it.

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» auriga on February 12th, 2012, 3:06am

Viz is afraid of competition, I see. Good companies use competition to improve their services instead of hiding behind laws and forcing status quo. Good companies see competition as an opportunity rather than as an obstacle.

Yes, MangaStream's activities are illegal, but forcing them to shut down isn't the only way to reclaim your market (if you can even do so in the process). A better alternative would have been for Viz to improve their operations; that has much better chances of raking the money in.

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» DMu7434680 on February 12th, 2012, 3:14am

another way is also have viz team up some what with the scanalators and find a way for them to get the money they want while the people who dub the series get the manga they want faster and for free. Have viz do something with advertizement so we can still have free and then legal manga with free subbers.

thread

» auriga on February 12th, 2012, 4:30am

That can be considered as "improving their operations." wink

Bottomline is Viz has to realize that they're doing something wrong/they're not doing enough.

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» deadphoenix on February 12th, 2012, 5:23am

If they would releases it the same way as in South Korea (Naver, Daum.... Internet full force), then problems would be solved. But yeah, as most publishers in Japan and USA ignore, this is the 21th century, not the 20th century anymore, people won't buy everything what is thrown to their head anymore. But everyone wants a warranty that it's worth buying it. And this is the free of charge manwha on daum and naver, or the anime that is free of charge on crunchyroll/ television.

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 7:34am

You know it would be damn funny to see you telling that to VIZ face to face.

illegal means illegal, it doesn't mean that it's fine to do it sometimes and sometimes not. They shutdown cuz they got enough. Kinda like how scanlators are warning you to stop supporting mangafox and you don't give a crap, and then they stop scanlating the shit or start putting watermarks on it.^^

I bet ya, MS is the first to get that heavy a threat but won't be the last one. >.>

thread

» auriga on February 12th, 2012, 8:25am

Tell them that they are afraid to compete? I would, actually. Not like they can do anything to me, lol.

Yes, it is illegal; I already said that. There are no exceptions, no double standards. Am I sad because of this news? Yes. HOWEVER since I choose to read scanlations I understand that this is part and parcel of the illegal scanlation community. Viz has every right to tell MangaStream to stop and MangaStream did good by following suit.

But it doesn't change the fact that Viz needs to do better.

Think about it: would Viz be this aggressive if they were making a lot of money? Or we can look at it this way: if Viz is making a lot of money, that means their services satisfy their customers; If customers are satisfied by Viz's services; would illegal scanlation groups like MangaStream be this active? I doubt.

I can't help but feel that Viz is sourgraping that some no-name amateurs who don't get paid are beating them at their game. But instead of modifying their business model to be able to compete better they choose to eliminate their competition. Well their competition is using illegal means so it's justified, but in the end this is just a temporary measure for Viz; If they really want to increase their profits and attract more customers in the long run they should suck it up and admit that they need to work harder.

And for the record... I don't even go to MangaFox unless my duties as a release mod require me to do so. Heck, I don't even read online. You can even read my opinion on watermarks and legal manga in the watermark news thread. bigrazz

thread

» PROzess on February 12th, 2012, 9:11am

Oh god, you people all start to whine about how scanlators don't have the right to watermark their release since they don't own it, but when the company comes who actually OWNS the license, you go bitching at them too?
Jesus....
You just can't satisfy the greedy readers.

thread

» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 9:49am

First like I pointed out before many times. You don't own anything regarding to the titles VIZ owns the right to release in America. The interesting part about this is that the VIZ media company is owned by japanese companies which release those titles in japan aka they own the series.

So when you complain...you are allowed to complain but you got no right to do anything about it. Why? They own the titles. They can do whatever they want with them. Makes you wonder, eh? Yes, just like even if you find ipads to be annoying you can't sell their software without asking them or share it for free...it's illegal. So even if they fuck you up...you can't do anything, well with the exception of not buying their product if you don't like it.

"I don't even go to MangaFox unless my duties as a release mod require me to do so." <---- ahhh another one of those. Your duties as a release mod. tsk tsk tsk I really hope they come after you. You do know that your ip address has been recorded on this server, now if VIZ comes to MU and tell them they will sue them if they don't give the address of the owner of this statement and then they can see that you are in one of the countries they can get you at...well, hello jail. biggrin

So even if VIZ is sourgraping....they have to protect their business. We do the same here in my country. You know it takes many years to make something but only a few weeks to copy it? That's a problem thus they made the stuff called copyright, patent and so on...

Oh and I agree with you...if VIZ were making lots of money they wouldn't take these action but they are not. That is a problem for VIZ, if it was free commercial then they wouldn't have minded it. It is not. Thus they are angry...which isn't that weird.
Still I can't watch it the way you do: If their service was satisfying then there wouldn't be any problems for them. lol sorry...that's so damn funny. You know the usual excuse for people not buying manga is:
I'm too poor
They aren't doing it nice enough
You can't get it in my country

So Viz should buy rights and release to everyone in the world, do it "nice" enough and make it so cheap so everyone can buy it? Pleeeeaaaaaaseeeeee, if you can't buy it then dont buy it. It's not like you can't live without comics...or are you really that lame? If you get caught you got no good enough reason to say that you just had to do it, since you would be dead otherwise, lol.

Company not being good enough doesn't equal stealing company's income.

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» r_daneel02 on February 14th, 2012, 12:16pm

haha let them come 2 my country.. lets c them getting ne where with that...f*** viz u cannot stop piracy in india atleast ... wed have 2 pay 50 dollars as fine for piracy .. max... r just bribe the official....cheaper bigrazz

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» YamiRi on February 12th, 2012, 4:21am

I want to cry.... Mangastream already become part of my childhood...
I don't know who VIZ Media is... but hopefully other scanlator can do same wonderful job like Mangastream did

thread

» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 7:31am

...
...
GO FIND OUT WHO VIZ MEDIA IS!!!

I guess this is also one of the reason why they sue people >.>

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» ZenTzen on February 12th, 2012, 2:02pm

You cant really blame the guy not everyone that likes manga or lives in the US know who VIZ is and thats the problem not everyone can read manga in their countrys because of popularity or availability.

So a lot of people turn to scanlation

thread

» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 3:38pm

I can blame him, and I do. I'm that evil, muahaha

I don't live in usa and I like manga...well I like hentai much more. So there are no problem when you can order your stuff from amazon. Oh wait he's underage now, right? I had that feeling reading some of the comments.

Still...I bet he doesn't even know the company that releases his naruto either (or any of the other titles he reads at MS), does that makes it okay to not know them when it's them who make the title? After all it's theirs not the scanlation groups property we are talking about.

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» brigee88 on February 12th, 2012, 8:18am

... oh my gosh. i don't blame viz at all if there are people like you

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» mewarmo990 on February 12th, 2012, 4:26am

A shame to see their most popular work dropped.

But MangaStream is correct in their announcement. It's something mangaka Ken Akamatsu noted in his Twitter and interviews as well - if companies are going to consistently release delayed, expensive, and mediocre publications while fan groups surpass them in every way, this type of infringement will continue.

thread

» deadphoenix on February 12th, 2012, 5:08am

This has a really strange timing, on the moment that everything went wrong with the economy, followed by the aggressive attacks on free file hosts. And now viz blames the lower sales on mangastream, I guess. That this movement is now is rather suspicious, their releases of Bakuman vol.9 and Blue Exorcist vol 6 aren't out either. And in the bestseller list is generally filled with Kodansha licenses (in the past VIZ ruled the top sellers).
Now is the question what effect this will have on the market, are people that are furious still going to buy it (Similar things happened in the past) and people that bought it out of obligation after reading it will also being lost (I'm in this group). VIZ doesn't probably know that they have to thank a lot of the series success of mangastream (and crunchyroll), they even force people to buy it. Most scanlations groups aren't the culprit (the main culprit are those big COMMERCIAL online-readers).
At least I hope they don't go bankrupt like Tokyopop, then I will lose all trust in in the North American Manga Industry.

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» m64 on February 12th, 2012, 3:37pm

all the stuff mainstream did was popular before they picked up...

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» maine12329 on February 12th, 2012, 6:41am

Faith in humanity lost.

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 7:30am

Was there any faith to begin with? O.o

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» ink junkie on February 12th, 2012, 7:21am

This is sad news, I'll admit, but this changes little. Let's see you keep up with the entire online anime and manga community, Viz.

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 7:29am

Actually they can only keep up with the titles they release...cuz viz owned by three of Japan's largest creators and licensors of manga and animation, Shueisha Inc., Shogakukan Inc., and Shogakukan-Shueisha Productions, Co., Ltd.

So yes they can sue your ass for their titles only.
Now if the other companies start doing the same then...ouch my balls >.<

thread

» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 7:26am

So...I guess scanlators screaming, trolling, watermarking couldn't do anything in the end. Oh well, that's what you get when you got online mangareaders posting "free manga at mangafox" as ads everywhere on the net.

Manga isn't free, you know...yes, yes, I know you pay for the electricity, the computer and the net to read your manga on the net but still...that's not how you buy your manga.

Welcome to the future you deserve, fuckers. Go thank websites like mangafox for letting the companies know that scanlation is a threat to them and they should just sue our asses if we don't drop the titles. biggrin

Anyway glad I learned japanese enough to read raws...woooooot~

thread

» PROzess on February 12th, 2012, 9:13am

I seriously hope other company follow suit.
That's the only way we can be saved!

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 9:51am

dude we need china to join...it will be awesome if china join. We need japan to talk with them about their production being hurt by them and it would be great to get china to help them. xD

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» Stoner on February 12th, 2012, 4:18pm

And then China will go the "and not a single fuck was given" way.

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» Stoner on February 12th, 2012, 4:19pm

In reply to japan should talk to china >.>

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» T1 on February 13th, 2012, 12:27pm

Indeed that is our socialistic comrade in arms biggrin

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» Lord Jure on February 12th, 2012, 7:57am

Alright, just what is wrong with you all?

Hoping that sales of VIZ's manga will drop because of this? VIZ is a business company that release manga (among other things) in english language. Unless you understand Japanese, you should be glad companies like VIZ exist and be glad that they release a good quality products. Yes, their releases are in much better quality than any scanlations you have seen, they also started releasing few weekly titles only 3 weeks after they are released in Japan. Even though it's only available online in USA, it's still a considerable improvement. Despite what anyone else say, they ARE trying. As for their printed releases, yeah you have to wait few months for new volume. But guess what, so does everyone in Japan. VIZ release most of their ongoing manga at same pace as in Japan, but 1-3 volumes behind. People who think VIZ should hire scanlators because they are fast are fucking retards. If VIZ could and would want to release manga faster, than they would do it.

Despite whatever you think, Mangastream has NO RIGHT to release scanlations of any VIZ titles. VIZ paid money to have rights to produce and release manga on english language. Mangastream did not. That means, if VIZ tells mangastream to stop it, they didn't do it because they are cheap bastards who are just after money, because they want to bully scanlators or because they don't want competition (seriously, this last one is just ridiculous). They are enforcing their god damn rights.

There are also people who say that VIZ should go after manga reader sites and not after TRUE jump fans. First of all, I think that "true" Jump fans actually buy and spend money on merchandise related to series runing in Jump. So, unless you have bought a manga volume or anime DVD or even a console game, you are full of shit. Secondly, VIZ did go after manga reader sites. But it's sites like those that are actual greedy bastards that you should hate. VIZ is not the bad guy, manga reading sites are the bad guys, because they earn money from scanlatins. Most of manga reader sites decided to simply ignore VIZ's demands. Mangastream did the right thing.

People who are actually mad because of this are people who wouldn't pay a single dollar even if somehow all scanlations magically dissapear and only way to read newest chapter of manga they like is to pay money and read it either online or on paper. I am pretty certain that even if VIZ manage to release whole WSJ magazine only an hour after it's released in Japan, fully translated, in perfect quality and only 2$, most people wouldn't bother paying those 2$ a week just to read that. So yeah, don't be full of shit and demand improvement, when you don't plan to actually support manga industry.

Scans of all those titles are still easy to find online for free, even without mangastream releasing them. Not to mention that there will probably bew few new groups, trying to gain some popularity by releasing those.

Sure, VIZ is no perfect, but all this hate is complete bullshit from immature and cheap pirates. It would be great if their online reader have more titles and is available worldwide. Not to mention if their printed releases get a dollar or two cheaper. Also, I hope they reprint some of their volumes that are impossible to find anymore. I am no saint eather. I read bunch of manga, but only buy a selected few. The rest of them, I download for free. But at least I am not bitching like a little girl every time I am denied my free fun, because that fun was not supposed to be free in the first place.

I said what I wanted to say, I am now out of here.

thread

» GGpX on February 12th, 2012, 8:19am

A+ post.

Too bad the forum you chose to post it in is filled with mostly silly posters who can't see further than their own noses.

thread

» Jeoxx on February 12th, 2012, 8:30am

Untill the, quite frankly, stupid region restrictions on Manga, Anime, TV-shows, movies etc. is gone, there actually is a need for these "illegal" means to enjoy these products. The truth is that the laws that apply to this are horribly outdated, and new ones that are pushed for right now only make things worse for the online distribution. Instead of easing the access to these products in a legal way what is happening is that it gets harder and harder to buy/subscribe. The best would be for the publishers to simply have a subscription service which is available ANYWHERE and reasonably priced. I would happily pay up to maybe $30 a month for a service like that. The problem is laws that restrict growth (even if they claim to protect intellectual property, they do as much harm as they do good) and outdated business models and no real willingness to update them. As someone said earlier, this is the 21st century, time to figure out what actually benefits everyone! The best RIGHT NOW would be a good discussion between creators, publishers, customers... everyone connected to this really.

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» keaglez on February 12th, 2012, 11:40am

Couldn't agree more.

Viz as far as I can see did a good job already, releasing it 3 weeks after Japan. That was good enough pace, and unlike scanlation, I believe they need to have their translation and edit approved first which make sense of the delay. Now if only Viz can release it globally, but again, they only hold license for US market and a global release would probably hurt publishers on another country.

That said, while we are all hoping to see a same day release as Japan or a legal manga reader accessible globally, it just doesn't seems to be possible yet. I still hope there is a solution as there is plenty of demands.

thread

» philip72 on February 13th, 2012, 11:34pm

"Viz as far as I can see did a good job already, releasing it 3 weeks after Japan."

That's nowhere near good enough. This isn't the 80's where they had to snail mail transcripts.

There's no reason why Viz can't release simultaneously with Japan right now, aside from a predilection for censorship (ie: Sanji's smoking).

If Viz is serious about what they're doing, they should beat the scanlators at both speed and quality. There's no reason that they should earn a premium over what they pay Jump, if a ragtag bunch of kiddies do a better job for free.

Now if Jump had half a brain they'd drop the foreign publishers, and set up an English Online Reader site on Japanese servers, charge an annual subscription fee with an extra premium to download.
If somebody wants a hardcopy volume, they can buy it and have it shipped, in english, directly from Jump's Japanese publisher.
Screw Viz, screw North American booksellers.

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» Crenshinibon on February 14th, 2012, 12:05pm

There's an old saying. You can get a good translation quick, cheaply, and with good quality. Pick two. Scanlations choose speed and price over quality. That's just the nature of the beast.

Also, you should, you know, do some research. Viz is Jump's Japanese publisher. They're a direct subsidiary.

thread

» shinshuu on February 14th, 2012, 5:36pm

As well, it is not easy to release at the same time as japan to. Do you understand how complicated the publishing industry is. Once japanese editor receive the manuscript (usually dead near deadline date) and have to rush it to the printer asap. that small time period isn't sufficient to deliver to the american counterpart.

thread

» gwkimmy on February 15th, 2012, 10:35am

yes, and all the marketing, legal stuff, printing, and shipping can totally be done within a few days. '-'

i agree that they should get their own online reader, but that takes time and development. im pretty sure something is in the works, if that ipad thing is any indication.

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» RiK.dfs on February 15th, 2012, 10:56am

I can't remember specifically....but I think I heard that VIZ is one of the publishers looking into digital subscriptions.

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 1:07pm

Word!

The less the companies take the less their workers get. Not to mention how will they compete with scanlators who takes nada (in most cases)?

thread

» sleepless_sin on February 12th, 2012, 2:49pm

so basically you yourself are a thief but you're trying to sound self righteous. that's all i got from your long ass rant.

thread

» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 3:39pm

Now the one million dollar question is:

Who's the bigger fool, the fool or the one who follows the fool?

thread

» Lord Jure on February 13th, 2012, 1:47am

You either didn't read my post properly, or you are just avoiding the point. This was not supposed to be "priracy vs buying" argument. I never said you should stop pirating and start buying. All I am saying is that it's stupid to hate Viz for forcing mangastream to close. Even I, who often read manga for free, know at least that much. Some of the posts in this topic were pretty ridiculous.

thread

» T1 on February 13th, 2012, 12:31pm

Stop expecting brain activity from 75% of the people talking here. I had to lower my IQ to be able to communicate with them.

I agree with you and I've been trying to say the same thing but with people not knowing what VIZ is and comparing free stuff with costly stuff....for stuff that actually cost money. You know it makes you wonder if they do know that manga is a merchandise that actually cost money since people live on making it and selling it.

thread

» sleepless_sin on February 13th, 2012, 2:11pm

Oh you are so smart T1. You think that your opinion is better than everyone else here so therefore you are smarter? Tch yeah right. I didn't say anything about viz. I only said that Lord Jure is saying all this shit but in the end s/he is a contributor in perpetuating piracy and the whole scanlation thing. I myself have no problem with viz. I BUY all my manga so don't go assuming whatever.

thread

» Paikiej on February 13th, 2012, 1:31am

I am inclined to agree. How can anyone want Viz to stop translating? I mean, I have quite a few manga. I Viz would stop, how would I finish those? Because, frankly, I do not feel like learning Japanese. And I can hardly be the only one.

I am glad that there are companies like Viz who translate manga. I think most people are. That does not mean I am not sad about the fact that Mangastrema has to stop scanlating. I read Narute, Bleach, One Piece, D.Gray-man and Claymore online.
And I own at least nineteen volumes of each of those series. So yes, I am sorry that Mangastream has to stop. But that sure won't stop me from buying the manga Viz Media publishes.

And seriously... Remember Tokyopop? Everyone was so full of complains about them. The pages were thin, not enough releases etc. etc. But when they went bankrupt, did you hear people cheering? Well, I sure didn't. When they went bankrupt, people suddenly realised that they couldn't read there manga in english anymore. So then they got mad at not being able to read at all. Now imagine Viz going bankrupt. Imagine the manga, anime, merchandise... Imagine it all gone. Would you be happy with that?
I sure wouldn't.

So be carefull what you wish for.

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» Lord Jure on February 13th, 2012, 1:53am

Actually, quite a lot of people were glad to see Tokyopop close, and I am sure many would be glad to see same thing happen to Viz... than to YenPress, Kodansha USA, Seven Seas... in the end, there will be no way to read manga except scanlations. And that is NOT a good thing.

Well, luckily for me, that will not happen, at least not soon. Viz is still going strong, sort of.

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» Paikiej on February 13th, 2012, 3:03am

There is always a group of people who does not want the same thing as the majority. I, for one, am happy that Viz, Kodansha etc. exist. I like buying manga. It looks ever so pretty on my bookselves.

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» PandaRanda on February 14th, 2012, 12:43am

I would be incredibly sad because then I wouldn't be able to read amazing but painfully obscure (and terribly hard to read in Japanese) series that VIZ releases like Kaze Hikaru and Ooku. T__________T

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» gwkimmy on February 13th, 2012, 8:54am

THANK YOU. first voice of reason i've heard all day.

viz isn't perfect, not at all, but they ARE making the effort. doesn't anyone remember when their stuff used to be like $2 more expensive than it is now? anyone?

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» RiK.dfs on February 13th, 2012, 10:51am

Damn straight. And if people actually pay for those titles.....then VIZ would have more of a reason to do better quality.

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» naikan on February 13th, 2012, 5:05pm

This, so much. What happened to the days when the moment a series got licensed, it was common sense for the scanlation teams to drop it? There used to be a sort of symbiosis between scanlation groups and English manga companies--the scanlation groups would pick up a range of series and the manga companies would come along to license the most popular ones, the scan groups would drop the series and everyone who wanted to read more could go buy them in English.

I mean, did we all forget the roots of scanlations, which is to make available a series you like to those who cannot obtain it because they can't read English? Scanlators and readers used to cheer when a series got licensed, and now in this age of Entitled, children who don't even know that manga doesn't originally come free bad mouth English manga companies, bad mouth scanlators who don't support aggregators, all the while NOT having a clue where this "free" manga comes from and just expecting more of it to keep coming.

I completely agree with the comments that Viz and other companies' business model needs revamping, but even if scanlation is a grey area of copyright issues, there is absolutely no good reason for someone to scanlate a manga that is already coming out in English. In this age of the internet, you can shop for manga online and have it shipped to anywhere in the world, so there is no excuse for demanding English scanlations instead of the licensed manga. (Buying raws is another story though, because that's still supporting the product.)

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» PandaRanda on February 14th, 2012, 12:41am

THIS so soo soo much!! I can't believe I had to scroll down so far to find someone who has any sense in this whole issue. Thank goodness there are people out there who aren't deluded, ignorant, or who don't choose to be so because they'd rather not accept the truth in the matter.

It's a shame that people think they have a right to get everything for free and instantaneously, and it's unbelievable that people want VIZ to lose money and for the manga industry to go to dust. I for one would never have gotten into manga if companies like VIZ hadn't existed when i went to that bookstore years ago and saw the manga section. They may not be perfect and they may not be fast (though honestly I think their speed is perfectly fine since they release at the same rate as the Japanese tanks do, albeit a couple of volumes behind), but I will always prefer to have a hard copy in my hands, whether the Japanese tanks or an English version from companies like VIZ.

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» Daisuki-chan on February 15th, 2012, 11:13am

"be glad that they release a good quality products"

Uh...I have VIZ' Excel Saga volumes 1-22 right here in my room with me and here are some problems (in ascending order of awfulness):

5. It took me a while to get volumes 7-8, and since I had already read through 4 before I wasn't about to read a mere 2 new (to me) volumes and then have to stop indefinitely, losing track of what I read in 1-6 altogether. If you're going to sell 1-6 and 9+ maybe you should sell enough of volumes 7-8 too, no? It's not that hard given that there's this thing called the internet that has very popular places that let people have things quickly shipped to them. I guess a monopoly (which is what "intellectual property" is ALL about) just doesn't have to care, though. Don't tell me other manga than Excel Saga exist, too, so VIZ isn't a monopoly. Would you accept it if I told you that you could just eat dirt if you didn't like the low cheese quality and/or high cheese price a theoretical cheese monopoly produced? You really need more than about six suppliers/producers/etc. for each step in the chain to avoid a cartel forming and induce serious competition on both price and quality. This exists as little as possible for Excel Saga, as VIZ is in a monopoly position over it where I am. Monopolies just don't care as much about anything good for the consumer by default.

4. Note errors. In volume three I found two notes that were numbered wrongly. One said it was on panel six of a four-panel page (it was on panel four, and the adjacent pages had six panels), and the other was simply off by five pages. For that one I had to wait until I reached the page five past the one they really meant (which was 182), notice the note talked about something not on that page but on another one in the past, and go back to that page to see the context. I've also seen links (as in URLs) to third party sites in the notes which are dead by now. If VIZ releases are of quality then why don't they either put the images intended to be seen on an extra page or pages in the volume (best way) or at least host the images themselves (tedious due to having to manually copy a full link from the page to a browser, but at least the link wouldn't be dead if VIZ started and then continued to care!)? VIZ could've wasted less of my time by either making the note better by just saying "search online for pictures ___" or simply removing what's useless due to low reliability, and which will obviously not exist forever, and doesn't anymore for me, from the notes. There are various levels of removing ranging from never adding it to checking it with each print run and editing it if it's dead (or better trying to replace it with something equivalent), but the main factor among all of them is that VIZ would have to give a damn, and it doesn't.

3. The note system. The notes in the back of the volumes are nice to have instead of nothing, especially when you have various localizations (or not in Sumiyoshi's case) done in the translation, but the note system is awful. Instead of just having a symbol (wouldn't really work here as the notes are together in the back instead of on the pages they are for, which isn't fundamentally bad at all, actually) or number indicate there's a note for some text they make you look in the notes section in the back first and have to anticipate when a note will occur as the notes there are listed as page-panel-text [bubble or block; only used if there are multiple in the panel]. So instead of reading normally and seeing that there's a note for something and looking it up you have to know what page you're on at all times or bookmark the next page (and the notes section, and make sure you have a third bookmark just for the page you're on too, if you have to stop for any reason! (I guess I'll have to start doing this...)) there'll be a note for, because there's no indicator whatsoever in the actual manga pages. To top it all off most pages aren't numbered, so sometimes you have to go several pages back or forward in search of a number to keep track of where you are, if you're actually reading the story instead of constantly repeating the page number to yourself. I just checked volume 22 and it is STILL this way. There's a reason notes for articles like on Wikipedia, the bible, or other cared-about texts don't go page-paragraph-sentence but instead make it clear when you read normally exactly when there's a note, but VIZ is obviously not run by someone that actually tries to read, much less enjoy, their volumes, quite unlike a scanlator, actually.

2. I can't always fully understand what Sumiyoshi is saying because they gave him some accent that doesn't exist in America. Sure, there are words I look up on OneLook throughout the manga, but at least those are actually recognized English words. Intentionally misspelled words and/or words where letters are replaced with apostrophes can't even be understood without context, which can be hard when they're the majority of what he says (which, even assuming I could look them up, is a bit much to expect of someone when there was no need for this "delocalization" in the first place, isn't it?), due to VIZification.

1. Pages are cropped. I can confirm this visually against "other sources", but I don't even need to because it's clear from how some words are partly cut off that they actually put the words on the uncropped page and later cropped the page, partly cutting off the words. I AM NOT KIDDING. Great work, VIZ.

I'm not mentioning more subjective things like the degree of localization, and yes, it's better to have one option than zero, assuming that one option is at all viable, but please don't say what you did with a straight face. It's simply ridiculous and it discredits your entire post and you in general by virtue of being a claim within it (dislike this all you like, but you can't blame anyone who thinks this way for doing so). These issues are VERY meaningful and simply don't exist in many scanlations at all, so why can't for-profit VIZ do better than this?

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» Callga on February 16th, 2012, 8:39pm

I wish it had a manga service style itune. I dont mind to pay but... i'm the minority i guess.

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» jojo_da_crow on February 12th, 2012, 8:58am

I have been in scanlation for roughly 11.5 years. This take down notice is nothing new. We received cease and desist letters like these back when there were only a handful of us doing this. Did we stop? Nope.

1. We either picked different series and moved on.
2. We simply changed our name, stuck up a new website, and continued on with what we were doing.
3. We made the releases harder to find and put them on IRC.

I imagine that many of the people who were working on this series will probably offer up their services to someone who is currently working on the series and we will see our beloved series start coming out just as fast with the same quality we saw with mangastream. It is the nature of scanlation.

That being said, I find it interesting the amount of people in this thread who claim to have never bought VIZ manga yet are saying their work is inferior. They are SLOWER but I can't say their work is inferior. I currently own the first boxset of Bleach (21 Volumes) and I've enjoyed it very much. I'm not ashamed to say I'm waiting for the next boxset so I can buy it too.

Would I like for it to be a bit more raw and there be more curse words? Sometimes but the same meaning comes across and mothers across America for some reason feel better buying little Billy his manga with out the curse words in it. Viz makes some sales and we get physical copies of the manga we enjoy.

You get annoyed with them for changing something small... well yeah it sucks but a lot of that is up to the translator who is trying their best to make it relateable to people who have no knowledge of culture in Japan. "But they are treating us like we are stupid and don't know about Japanese culture!" No... they aren't. YOU are not the person they are trying to relate to. They know you will catch on to what is going on and understand it. If you are looking for manga through scanlations... chances are you know something about Japanese culture. But little Suzie who is sitting in a Books-A-Million right now picking up her first manga from the shelf doesn't know anything about Japan. She doesn't even know it is from Japan... but she is falling in love with this little book in her hands and she knows that there is something special about it. Years from now she will be one of us but she will never forget reading that first story. THAT is who these people do these translations for and I'm immensily proud that they are trying their best to bring more people into our folds.

That being said, I do agree with mangastream on this issue. I think they made a very intelligent and reasonable statement. Until these companies see that there is a demand for these series to be released every week and quickly it will be this way. Take Funimation for example. They are pretty much on par with some fansubbers now. Given the chance I'll wait a few days and go watch it on hulu when they release it. I actually like the translations better on their subs.

One possible solution? These companies need to open their own manga readers. Make it free. Make us watch a short commercial before reading a chapter. Put some ads on the pages. Set up a monthly subscription service so you can read all the series with little or no ads. Make some of your older series premimium so you have to pay a subscription... but every so often make them free to draw some more people in. Make all your new series series free, or at least the last few volumes free. Basically make a hulu like mangareader.

On top of that... make great products. Use your reader site to poll the very people who are reading your series to find out what they want. I love big beautiful box sets with color inserts. Does everyone? No but they could find out right there what people think with simple polls. The market research would be so easy.

I love manga. It is my passion. Hell, I wanna go scan some stuff right now I'm so pumped about it. I want to see it do well in America and all over the world. Viz call me. Let's do this and make you some money and make some fans crazy happy.

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 9:57am

Indeed....but it always depends D:

Like titles dying out and never coming back again >.> I could give you examples but your 11.5 years should have shown you that.
There was no ACTA, PIPA, SOPA and EAR before...it's gone to far and online readers with ads popping up all over the place isn't making this all better.
When a rat is backed to the corner it bites the cat...you should know how those companies has started to complain more and more these years. They are just doing what they have to do to kill opponents and actually getting something for the money they used to license the titles.

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» imp4ever on February 12th, 2012, 10:38pm

Thanks for posting that. It contains all of my feelings and more. Come on guys, do you really want a company to go out of business just because they're not doing things as efficiently as they could? I wonder how many of use would never have discovered manga if it weren't for the hard copies. Not to mention, think of all the jobs that would be lost. Isn't the job market crappy enough already?

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» tallrice on February 14th, 2012, 4:07pm

Well said.

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» Daisuki-chan on February 15th, 2012, 11:18am

I posted above how their work is inferior. It doesn't really matter if Bleach is good (for you; obviously you can't trustably vouch for everyone, at least without any evidence or examples), my Excel Saga could use a LOT of improvement. But then maybe VIZ cares about yours and not mine because yours is more profitable. It still leaves me with a poor impression of VIZ when measured against scanlators, though...

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» darkdoll25 on February 12th, 2012, 9:42am

Mangastream was the only group that I trusted, to bring me high-quality scans and trusted translations. But there are plenty of great groups doing the manga listed above, probably not in a timely-matter like Mangastream, but it's better than nothing smile

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 10:01am

Oh so the manga you are talking about is..............mangazone and....well that's it?

Like dragon&fly scans is related to mangahere which is related to mangafox meaning all are owned by the illegal NOEZ company in China, mangazone is related to mangareader which is no better than mangafox.

Gonna be interesting to see what the next step for Viz is gonna be biggrin

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» philip72 on February 12th, 2012, 10:59am

Well VIZ certainly has a right to do this, and I never went to MangaStream once they went online reader only, but this may limit some new fan exposure to the series.

I never would have purchased One Piece or Claymore if I hadn't had free access to them first. Initially I thought their art sucked, one was too kiddy, and the other too grimdark.
Of course once I really started reading them I started to love them.
I now own 59 manga volumes, 5 DVD collections and 8 movies of One Piece, plus 19 volumes and the complete anime series in DVD and BluRay of Claymore. Just on those two titles I've spent approximately $2k.

Now I can do this because I've graduated uni, have a good paying job, and a Den in my basement where I can hide my powerlevel.

Just because you get older, doesn't mean you start disliking the things you loved as a teen. There's adult gamers, adult sports fans, adult sci-fi geeks and adult manga fans, and they all have the money to blow on their love. The latter however is nascent and is primarily the result of exposure due to fansubbing and scanlations, as there's really no other natural western mechanism for creating the fanbase.

By stopping the primary means of exposure now without offering a decent alternative, they may be eliminating future adult fans who have the money to support them.

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» archknight on February 12th, 2012, 11:43am

you do know that another group just gonna go about on releasing those series anway. It not like it will be the end of free release, it also just means that there will be another new group that come out and make money out of releasing those series.

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 1:06pm

well if that continues and people keep making money then one day the companies will act in such a harsh manner than the next one who does it will go to jail. Kinda like how they did in Singapore and anime biggrin

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» Seijurou on February 12th, 2012, 4:58pm

Actually, making an example out of scanlators by putting some in prison is a viable option for companies. Yes, other groups will go underground and continue releasing still, but getting manga out to the public will at least become a little harder. Of course, Viz didn't let MS go free out of kindness; legal actions are costly and time-consuming

Right now, someone else will just pick up MangaStream's projects, which is particularly a given when talking about the Big Three. I just hope that they do a better job and do not watermark their releases.

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» T1 on February 13th, 2012, 12:34pm

Yes, but they are only costly until they find out that they are losing too much money, not suing someone and making an example of them to the rest.

Btw let's say that the prison option became viable for companies and they use it, then I bet you 100% agree with me that only the hardcore will continue underground. About 75% of the scanlators or more will stop this since the chance of going to jail for so little is not worth for them.

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 6:18am

Yup, I think harsher measures are going to be taken soon. I just don't understand why they only target the scanlators though. I mean, sure mangastream had all of the "big 3" but the online reading sites are what's making most of the titles available to anyone and those are the ones that profit the most out of their work.

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» T1 on February 13th, 2012, 12:39pm

It's because they are stupid. They see it like this: Kill the source, no one will be able to distribute them
Instead of: Kill the distribution and people will find it harder to find their free illegal stuff and will give up and buy it instead cuz they are wasting too much time on it.

I want them to go after the online readers too...but it's probably not going to happen which is one of the reasons scanlators try to tell others to stop supporting them. Less user base, less money they makes, less threat to the companies they are. ^^

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 3:28pm

Yeah, but eventually they will get to the online readers. I just hope we can go back to the good ol' days with the irc releases but I'm starting to think even that won't be possible anymore. Things have gone completely out of proportion and I think they will make one of the online readers the example (like what happened to pirate bay a year or so ago).

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» Verito.S on February 12th, 2012, 12:26pm

No matter of how right Viz Media is for doing this , that doesn't mean we can't be less sad, I'm pretty sure most of us know that the whole scanlation system is pretty illegal, and we also know that it had given access to manga to people who couldn't even dream to get in their country/region (what, do you think some random girl in a south american country like mine can go and get the newest release when she wants? no, I'd be lucky to get it in two years). It's like with megaupload. I'm pretty sad about this (and I feel like crying) because mangastream is the best and the fastest, but at least is not closing down.

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 1:05pm

I'm quite happy megauplaod went down....and about that girl well she can't still get that damn shoujo she wants because no one is translating it. The End.

Another thing, the thing about everyone knows that scanlation is illegal...nah many people and ever groups thinks that it's okay to do it as long as it's not licensed in english....which is WRONG! It's illegal to do it as soon as it's released in the country where it's first released aka Japan. I just explained last week to a guy in my Japanese class, much better than me in japanese btw, that it was illegal and he wouldn't acknowledge it until I showed him how it really worked.

This is how sad the world is.

We the scan..well the scanlators just try to follow the gray middle line that says we do it cuz we love it and want to share the love with others so they can love it too. The companies shut their mouth cuz it was kinda "okay" and they got commerce here and there for free. Then we got online mangareaders and it became a problem...well not at the beginning but when the companies sales began to fall they got angry and tried to stop this process without anything happening. Now they just did it their way...hard to get it, right? Try putting yourself in their shoes and try understanding how you would feel if someone did that to your income, not to mention the staff you had to fire cuz people weren't buying your crap anymore. Yes, the world sux but that's how it is.

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» Li7hium on February 12th, 2012, 1:46pm

When the sales dropped they should have stopped and think what made them drop. And the most significant reason was the quality of th series in itself. I'm completely stunned on how many series receive the green light to be published since all they have is echi and not a single hint plotwise...

And those that keep saying piracy is the thing to blame for the dropping in sales no nothing. If it wasn't for scanlator, for example, how would many of the people that now buy viz's translations know about those shows? And another thing, if it weren't for the scanlator groups Viz wouldn't even be here today because manga wouldn't be known outside of japan/korea region.

And one more thing, that I keep telling, and most people don't care to stop and think about it. Many say piracy makes people stop buying the books but the truth is, most of those who download/watch manga over the internet, and don't buy the books, wouldn't buy them anyway if there were no scanlated version and this is what makes me laugh when I see all those big companies complain about piracy. If only they stopped to think that maybe, MAYBE many people don't buy the books because:
a) several books have completely missed translated lines
b) many can't afford the money they ask
c) people have an easier access to the goods trough the internet

They could solve all these problems if they made a site, like a big online reader, where all the authors could gather their work but this would bring a big problem to the companies that distribute the manga titles... They would have no reason to be around anymore so that's off the table... And that site idea could also allow for the manga to be free/cheap since, from what one could tell when looking at mangafox, that site would make up a good revenue.

So yeah, piracy has an impact on the sale numbers but it's way smaller than the big companies try to make it.

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» PROzess on February 12th, 2012, 2:23pm

"c) people have an easier access to the goods trough the internet"

That's all to what it accounts.
Once you got something for free, why would you suddenly changed to the version you need to pay for?

And, seriously...
Stop complaining about VIZ...
WE ARE IN THE WRONG HERE. Even if it's a grey-line.
They BOUGHT the damn license. They are in the right.
I haven't seen any scanlator going buy a license yet...

Basically all you care about is:
A) Free Releases
B) Fast Releases
C) Easy to Access Releases

You're just a hypocrite if you start making excuse, saying it's otherwise.

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» Li7hium on February 12th, 2012, 2:58pm

wow, hold your horses there.. no need to be offensive just because your argument has run short.
I exposed my point of view but if you can't respect it then please refrain from posting an insult as a reply. And how am I being a hypocrite by stating the obvious? Don't know about you but when I started reading manga online I was underage and didn't have a way to buy it, because there was no store in my country that sold it, and the only way to buy it would be using a credit card, which I didnt have at the time. Btw, I could also call you a hypocrite because I am completely sure you read most of your manga online so why don't you stop "supporting" the scanlating community and simply buy all the series you are interested? Right, I'm the hypocrite here...

And I stand by what I said. If you believe piracy is the only explanation to the drop in sales then ok... I'll just tell you that ACTA will put that into test very soon. And when everyone realizes that piracy wasn't the reason, at all, for the drop in sales it's going to be too late because, by then, the internet will never be the same.

For your information, the publishers will eventually vanish, being only a matter of time until that happens. I just hope that happens before the manga industry goes beyond the salvage point. And by that I mean that the hype outside japan is going to fade sooner or later because most of the series that are being published recently have a huge echi content but are pretty much lacking in every single aspect left. That may be appealing for the japanese market but if they want to make manga profitable worldwide that's also something to take into account. If they only care about the japanese market they shouldn't expect the sales to go rampant because that simply won't happen.

To conclude this wall of text, and like I said before, the huge manga reader would pretty much mean the end for all the online readers, which I agree with since they are making huge profits with other peoples work (both the author and the scanlation groups), and it would solve the "where to get" problem. Ideally, both the author and the scanlating community could work together to make this happen because, like I said before, the revenue of said site would be huge and could even allow for the manga to be free/very cheap and by working together with some of the best scanlation groups they could also learn more about their "environment".

As a reminder, if all you can do is bash other people as a way to express your opinion please refrain from doing so because that makes most people stop taking you serious.

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 4:00pm

If you believe piracy is the only explanation to the drop in sales then ok... I'll just tell you that ACTA will put that into test very soon. <--- Amen! You do know that most people who buy manga in japan are the japenese, right? >.>

the publishers will eventually vanish, being only a matter of time until that happens. I just hope that happens before the manga industry goes beyond the salvage point. <---- that's why they are going to use ACTA, so they can save what can be saved. These problems have been since OneManga...guess you don't know that...but it doesn't surprise me. Oh and I don't think the big 3 publishers who owns VIZ will disappear that quick...history time: Did you know that VIZ was one of the first companies in USA that released manga since the 80's? You may not know but they started with releasing chapters of dragonball....chapters not volumes. So my conclusion is...you got a higher chance to disappear than VIZ. bigrazz

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» Li7hium on February 12th, 2012, 5:15pm

I already knew VIZ dated from the 80's... but let me ask you this then... have you heard about kodak? do you know what they used to sell? I say used to because they declared bankruptcy not that long ago... 5 years ago they were valued over 5 billions dollars and now they are gone. What does this teaches us? What is true today may not be true tomorrow and the same can be said about manga companies.

Their biggest threat is the internet and not because of the scanlation groups. Let me give you an example... What if one of the "big 3" authors decided to quit his publishing company and started releasing his new material directly over the internet in an itunes app kind of thing? What if other authors followed his move? What would happen when all the authors followed this bold move? This would mean the end of the distribution companies and yet the manga titles would still be released.

Do you understand what I mean now? I admit I have some issues in making myself clear sometimes but I hope all has been cleared out now.

"You do know that most people who buy manga in japan are the japenese, right? >.>"
As for this part I couldn't quite get what you meant. Are you implying that japanese read scanlated series instead of buying them? If that's the case I repeat what I said, if people really like something they will end up buying it. If they suddenly couldn't read the show online anymore I don't think that would make them buy anyway (again, that's what would happen in my case. I already buy what I like).

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» shinshuu on February 12th, 2012, 10:30pm

the example with kodak seem wrong. The reason why Kodak went bankrupt have nothing to do with piracy, they just lost to legitimate competition since NIkon, Canon, Panasonic can offer better quality. That is their fault for not being innovative enough. Is for this scenario, Vix isn't losing sale with other lega company like Yen Press, but to pirate, thus they can prevent it through legel mean. Manga of their title are easily accessible online for free, whereas Kodak doesn't (people buy other brand, not their = this have nothing to do with piracy, it's hard to prevent anything through legal measure). If Viz loss sale due to other competitor, then you can sad it's their fault for their lack of quality. However frankly it hard to see Viz bankrupt this they one of the pioneer to bring manga to the state. If they go bankrupt, there will most likely be an implosion as manga will most likely become a fad that is disappearing. <there aren't that mush manga company in the state. As well, remember, Vix own rights to many popular manga title like Naruto and bleach. The popular title are the main source of income for viz, not the minor one. Tokyopop fail because they weren't generating enough sake which can be equal to not having much bread-winning manga in their list.

Enough note, japanese publisher quitting their company aren't likely as it mostly isn't own by one person. Most likely a corporate style. All they can do is change how to deliver to title to the viewer. Though their company can to bankrupt if they don't generate enough sale <unlikely in the near future since these company are huge. They run dozens of magazine (maybe even hundreds) and have popular title that viewer love under their belt.

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 5:49am

Actually the kodak example was used to state my point of view of what can happen to today's manga distributing companies. I mean, before the photograph went digital kodak seemed to be simply unshakable in terms of market value and importance but all that changed in almost a blink of an eye. Why? Because you could start printing your pictures at home with the same quality and you stopped needing their "tapes" (dunno how to call them) in order to take pictures.

Same can be said about the manga industry. Right now VIZ is responsible for delivering many of the hit titles we read but who says it will stay this way forever? All it takes is a well known mangaka taking an bold initiative and it may trigger the end of said company. This is what I meant by the kodak example.

And a huge online reader, with the support of good mangakas (if one of the "big 3" supported this idea, for example), could actually be the turning point in this dominant control of VIZ. And to be clear, the online reader I'm talking about would be a legit one, where the mangakas would release their work straight to the internet, and colect whatever monetary income they could get out of it.

Of course it all comes down to the titles they could gather but I'll give you "the breaker" as an example. Who could have thought that title would reach the success it has now? And the internet has an advantage many don't seem to see. People are different so if a series is not a big hit in japan, for example, that doesn't mean it couldn't be a big hit anywhere else. A good example of what I just said is "Double Arts" that got axed in japan but I remember it being a good hit, at least from what I could read here and from the number of people reading it. This aspect would make things interesting, IMO, as we would start seeing artists having their own niches and manga itself could improve and get out of this never ending loop of ecchi material that seems to be the only thing being released right now.

Off-topic: How can a manga such as All-rounder Meguru not have been licensed already. That's probably one of the few good mangas that have been released in the last couple of years but still haven't managed to get itself picked by a good company. I would be very happy to see del rey pick this up soon because I prefer them over VIZ anyway :\

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» PROzess on February 13th, 2012, 4:56am

The difference between me and you is, that I never read on mangafox and am trying to stop it.
And at least I'm helpful to the scanlation by translating. What do you to besides reading?

And to your argument of underage and no way to buy!??
You crazy?
That would mean it's alright to rob a bank when you're underage, because yeah, you don't have a choice do you? You would just go into any supermarket and steal the stuff you need. Cuz yeah, you're underage and have no means to buy it legally?
Great reasoning! I'm so proud of you dude!!

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 5:31am

pfft. when did I ever say I read anything on mangafox? I only referred them as an example on how the online readers are making a huge profit with someone else's work. You, on the other hand, not only use an online reader to get your manga but also support online reading.

Also, you should re-read what I typed. I never said it was ok to do so, I did say that was one of the reasons. Is stating an obvious reason the same as saying it is the right thing to do? Apparently for you it is the same...

Oh well, I'm glad the majority of the people in this world doesn't think the same.

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» DragonAndLance on February 12th, 2012, 3:02pm

I play pirated games until I have enough to buy it. I pirate a album until I have the money to buy it, then I replace it. I like supporting my favourite artists. The same thing for manga, and etc. If something is good enough, I buy it. Simple as that. I have nothing to say on this issue besides that.

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» Li7hium on February 12th, 2012, 3:55pm

That is also my opinion. If the product is good people will still buy it as opposed to the case where it's bad and then it will be reflected on the sales numbers.

And that's why I said that most manga, nowadays, relies too much on echiness and pretty much has nothing more than that. For some that may be enough but the majority expects a lot more than panty shots when it comes to spending money on a manga.

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» shinshuu on February 12th, 2012, 10:13pm

Then just don't read the manga that are ecchi. I'm pretty sure there are tons other which doesn't involve ecchi.

As for buying, honestly, what the ratio of the manga read and bought. Perhaps one every 20 title...? If the manga are bad, then just don't read it. It shouldn't be, since the manga bad, I'm only going to read online for free (from beginning till the end), they don't deserve my penny. The quality of the manga in general can be tell in only a few chapters, thus you should stop reading after knowing that it's not your cup of tea.

If plain greed and selfishness that leecher/reader only want to read manga without paying a dime and still expect quality. How are the author to increase their manga quality when their livelihood is at risk? Too much worrying about real life issue = degration in manga since they can't plain the story properly.

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» PROzess on February 13th, 2012, 4:58am

So ecchi is good enough to be read for free on mangafox, but not enough to buy it?
That's some pretty screwed logic.
IT'S FREE. that's all what counts. And the official stuff costs money. A fact. Who would people go pay for stuff that they easily can access for free on mangafox? That's reality. It has nothing to do with genre.

It's stupid to argue with genre. Strangely, the ecchi titles are somewhat the most popular titles anyway.

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 6:00am

So, batoto is good enough to read from but mangafox isn't?
See what I did there?

And no, never said it was okay to read ecchi stuff online as opposed to read the other things. At his point I'm starting to think you are either provoking me on purpose or don't read what I write properly.

And to be clear on this, what I said is that ecchi material may be a huge hit over japan but from what I can tell (with friends, people I meet online, etc.) that isn't what most people want anymore. Sure, ecchi can still be fun to read but most titles that are being released only rely on this aspect (ecchi) and lack in pretty much everything else. You can't expect someone to buy a product that pretty much lacks in interest. Sure, people are different and like different things but if you actually stop to think most of the ecchi based titles end up being axed.. Yeah, must be because of the online readers..

Btw Prozess, I ask you again. What makes batoto okay and mangafox not? isn't batoto also profiting from illegally distributing copyright material?

And to clear things out I'm against both of them as long as they profit by making manga available online without the approval of the authors of said mangas.

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» PROzess on February 13th, 2012, 6:23am

Batoto isn't putting the money in it's own pockets.
It's distributing it among the scanlators. Not the perfect solution, as imo, scanlation can be done perfectly without any money. My group ran on full free hosting and I only took a small amount of donation to cover the volume purchases, that's it.
But the money mangafox makes is by far bigger than batotos.
And where does the money go? Into the pocket's of NOEZ. The scanlator buy new volumes or host their stuff with the money from batoto. But the money from mangafox just enriches the NOEZ staff.
No benefit to the community at all.

And about the ecchi stuff... Any group I'm affiliated with and my own releases too, get the most downloads on titles where there is ecchi -.-'

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 6:58am

But do those titles rely on ecchi alone? I know there are titles that have moderate ecchi content but also have a storyline. In those cases ecchi is kinda secundary because you actually see other characteristics that help define the title.

For example, when I started reading manga (like 8 or 9 years ago, can't really remember now) I actually like reading ecchi mangas because they were different from what I had been reading up until then. After 2 years ecchi stopped being something new and I started losing interest in titles that were completely based upon ecchi material. Nowadays I give a manga series about 5 chapters to "show me what they got" and if I can't see anything besides those overly used ecchi clichés scenes then I simply drop the show.

Of course thats not the only thing that makes me drop a series. As an example I have dropped One Piece although I have something like 20 volumes bought because the story is going nowhere and the author seems to be trying to milk the fans as much as possible with a very slow pace. But that is my opinion, I'm sure many disagree with me and still read One Piece. The only thing that makes me keep reading Naruto is the thought of it ending in about 1 and a half years from now and Bleach's ending has been announced so I'll end up buying the last volumes just to complete my collection.

I honestly hope there's an artist emerging that can revolutionize manga world because right now there's not many new ideas popping up, most things feel overdone and that's never a good thing.

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» PROzess on February 13th, 2012, 7:48am

I remember Kanokon being very popular when I worked on it...
And that seriously didn't had a serious plot...

What I wanted to say is, that a lot of people just read manga for the tit/panty shots. Even if there is no actual plot to it.
I totally prefer stuff with an actual plot. That's why I can't understand when I or someone else releases a chapter with pure fanservice, it immediately gets twice as much downloads.

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 10:33am

I actually think this should be studied really, and I'm not even joking. I think most people that read the heavy ecchi content mangas are people who recently discovered this kind of art but I may be wrong. This could also be something that those large companies could benefit from because most studies were made for Japan and I don't think that, when they expanded the manga market to other countries, they developed a similar study.

I know the purpose of manga was/is to be made available mainly in Japan and, if possible, export some of the biggest hits but that mentality makes no sense for me nowadays. Internet revolutionized that idea and nowadays we are literally living in a big wide world.

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» gwkimmy on February 13th, 2012, 2:27pm

it's because the economy currently sucks hard and there's no money in risking trying out new ideas and new plots. it's better and more financially sound to stick with the stuff that guaranteed sells: porn. simple as that. look at all the new anime being made in japan right now, it's either ecchi fanservice, moeblobs, or "deep" anime that turns out to be filled with fanservice anyways.

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 3:33pm

True, but the anime industry has been like that for the last 3 or 4 years with the occasional good series popping out. From all the winter season anime titles I couldn't find even one that caught my attention. As for the spring season I saw 2 or 3 that I may pick up but I don't expect much from those either. Going to give them 2 or 3 eps to show me they are worth me time otherwise I'll have to wait for the summer season :\

And you actually made a very good point. Now that I think about it ever since this big economical crisis started there hasn't been many shows (or even any show) that actually had a new idea or tried something that no one ever dared to do.

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» jrdragon2003 on February 13th, 2012, 4:42pm

To be honest Japan's has been in the decline for a lot of their major popular exports. They've gotten stuck in the old ways that used to sell for them and they never improved. Like for example their games have dropped considerably, (I know we're talking about manga here bare with me on this) and a lot of famous developers have left their respective companies for lack of progress and innovation. The idea of sticking to what sold well in the past isn't going to cut it for a lot of reasons. it becomes repetitive and dry. Look at Capcom, they constantly rehashed Megaman along with other titles under them that have gotten sequelitis. If we put ecchi in every manga released now a days then it's just going to go the point of it all just being about panties and possibly boobs... And I'd for it to grow stale for the latter one since I do like boobs, lol. But having something too much is just going to make it boring and lame.

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» Seijurou on February 13th, 2012, 5:05pm

Sex Sells.

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» RiK.dfs on February 15th, 2012, 7:59am

Basically it's Tazmo all over again (just a little modified).

Wonder if maybe someone should write a history lesson over that big and long incident(s).

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 4:01pm

I pirated games, I bought games....now I don't do games anymore except eroge biggrin

Oh and I'll never buy eroges...I am sane enough to know not to stash pron under my bed

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» Baniita on February 12th, 2012, 4:37pm

Foo', you need more creativity. >:T Hide it underneath your mattress!

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» uzumakiwalid on February 12th, 2012, 6:07pm

That's common....

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» deadphoenix on February 14th, 2012, 2:42am

Just put them between your schoolbooks, no one checks between them.

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» RiK.dfs on February 15th, 2012, 8:04am

Actually best places to hide things are behind drawers inside a desk or such. There's typically a small space there large enough to hide things. Also try BEHIND a book shelf between it and the wall (you can put a thin enough object between them). And also behind a mirror.

I used these different locations for hiding things I didn't want others to find (though it actually wasn't porn).

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» Kaiten.Sama on February 12th, 2012, 5:46pm

You make a very good point: nowadays manga fans want all of their series in one place, easy to find, and no searching involved. Not only does VIZ understand that, they are modeling their business around it. If manga fans want to go to a single site for One Piece, Naruto, and Bleach that is great! As long as that site is Shounen Jump Alpha. Mangastream's problem was not that they were scanlators, it was the fact that they were a one stop site for seven Shounen Jump titles, three of which are part of Alpha's inaugural line up. That is a matter far more series than piracy: Alpha and Mangastream would have been direct competition for the same title. As the copyright holder VIZ has no desire to compete with pirates. Had they only scanlated two Shounen Jump series, fine, no harm. VIZ would not have cared if MS scanlated Naruto and D. Gray Man along with Fairy Tail, Deadman Wonderland, Ippo, and Rock Lee. It was having seven series in one place that was the end of Mangastream.

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» T1 on February 12th, 2012, 3:55pm

I said the same thing to the dude from HP about their touchpad, do you know what his response was?

"That's the reason why stopped the production line. We are losing money instead of making them."

The companies are doing the same shit.

Many says that piracy is bad...well it is. I'll be true with ya...

I buy many manga titles I do much more than the people on this page...cuz I'm great.
I just read a lot more and I refuse to buy crappy end titles or titles I've finished and found them to be so-so. Now what would have done with I didn't know the crappy end or found them so-so cuz I didn't read them to the end?
I would have spent more money of them.

Before we start a huge convo about if we should stop piracy or not....no I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that you should always do something in moderation.
The reason the companies accepted us 5 years ago was that it was commerce for them when people got to know the titles and the companies released faster so you'd just buy the book since you couldn't wait that long for the scanlation group to release more. This is a good way to get your titles promoted and have people buying if they find the titles to be good, right?

The world we live in today, you don't need to find the titles, there are archieves all over the net to find them. You don't need to buy the title since the latest chapter is being released. You can still keep blaming you being poor, not have access or some other lame excuse which won't work in court if they get really angry and start making examples of people.

Now...what you don't seem to get which I keep repeating over and over but it's hard for you to read the posts:
THE REASON THE COMPANIES ARE TAKING THESE STEPS IS BECAUSE IT AFFECTS THEIR SALES!
It didn't do it before but these days with ads all over the place to tell you where to read your manga for free on the net affects their sales a lot. Now that you talk about mangakas and manwhakas....please know what you are talking about. The authors of the titles are also damn angry at the scanlators since they can find their titles on the net meaning online readers. A-team has more than often told online readers to stop on their site, through their watermarks because the dude who makes The Breaker has complained about this on his blog. He doesn't want to be famous by the likes of you and me so why do we keep doing it? Blood lagoon, Negima, berserk, black jack and many other authors are of the same opinion, they don't want to see their stuff on the net for free. They are losing money on it. They've been twittering curses on the net for the uploaders.

Yes, your excuse is that you don't know about it since you don't look into these kinds of news but they still exist. What gives you or me the right to cut in their income and let others earn on their stuff?

We shouldn't make this a world where we become too selfish and start giving a damn about people who actually make things for us to enjoy. That would be a sad world indeed. If you still don't get it, then you probably are one of those who don't get it no matter what since it's your way or the highway....exactly what the companies are trying to do since they got enough.

a) several books have completely missed translated lines <---- seriously? First time I've hearing and I buy lots of crap >.> I know sometimes, rarely, I find a page with a missing bubble but those are small and aren't even translated in the raw. Still it's much better than those shounen chapters where the bubble text has been copied to 2 bubbles since the translator forgot the bubble and the group just wanted to be the first one to release the chapter.

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» Li7hium on February 12th, 2012, 5:00pm

"a) several books have completely missed translated lines" believe me man, I was pretty pissed off by that. It was the first time I bought a manga and when I got home I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I honestly can't remember the title of the manga since it was a long time ago (probably 5 or 6 years ago) but it did happen. And I do understand what you say, scanlation does affect the income of a publisher but what I don't agree is the percentage the companies say they are affected.

For example, I have bought every single volume of Black Lagoon (why did it have to go into hiatus mode... WHYconfused? and thankfully they didn't have typos or mistakes, that I remember seeing) but I refuse to buy manga such as High-School DxD (just to give you an example) because this last title only relies on echi situations and has a weak plot. Let's say tomorrow all the scanlation was over, would I buy any other volume besides the mangas I already know and which I already support the author? I would honestly NOT buy anything else. It would actually work against new artists really because I learner from personal experience that one should always "try" what they buy before hand (bought the war of the worlds dvd with tom cruise and after watching 30 minutes I was already bored... at the end I was questioning myself why did I even buy that... "thing").

All this to say that the authors have all the right in the world to demand their work not to be made available for free online but do they expect someone to simply go buy his/her work without knowing what they can expect? Because we all know how covers can be deceiving, right?

I think the manga industry needs a severe change in mentality because what's been making them lose ground is their fear of taking the next step towards the internet distribution. Someone already said something like an itunes app to distribute manga, I also said something like a huge manga reader site but one thing is for sure, the ones that have much more to lose with this move are todays manga distribution companies because they aren't needed anymore. I mean, think about it.. they are basically the middle man nowadays and they are the ones that get the biggest chunk of the profits yet, with the internet, they are kinda expandable since it allows for a bigger reach with lower costs. All it takes is the manga author and a team of IT experts to maintain the site (I know I'm being very simplistic but the truth is the author would have a bigger importance with this new distribution system) and it would leave litle to no space to nowadays middleman.

As for A-team scanlation group, and risking being called a fanboy, I agree with their attitude on this issue. Sure, they are also committing an illegal action, by scanlating the manga series, but they aren't the ones making a huge profit out of it. Hell, if it weren't for the big online reader sites I'm pretty sure many of these artist wouldn't find their titles so easily around the internet and yet we see someone like Prozess (or what's his name) calling me a hypocrite while he supports an online reading site (batoto)... how ironic is that? He is supporting what's basically killing the profit of the authors... oh, the irony...

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» shinshuu on February 12th, 2012, 9:59pm

Scanlation are meant to promote unknown manga or manga that aren't likely to reach america (or at least how they(scanlator) generally proclaim themselves as. Not a bunch trying to scan only the popular one. Therefore with regard to viz, requesting C&D on the above manga is agreeable. Those manga have already have an establish a huge fan base in America.

What's the point of complaining when the mission to promote these manga had already been accomplished years ago for this manga. And frankly, this is the same as with the entertainment industry, mangaka and publisher aren't making enough. Many mangaka are dirt poor or doing it part time only.

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» PROzess on February 13th, 2012, 5:00am

If you are not satisfied with their quality, then write them a mail.
Ignoring them and going the pirate way isn't the right way.
If everyone would do that in real life with any topic, society would crumble.

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 6:14am

Then why don't you, the translator of a group, follow their claims and stop what you are doing? See, it works both ways doesn't it? And you are one of the ones that promote the piracy in the first place aren't you?

And to answer directly to what you said, if I'm not satisfied with their quality I stop reading that series. If I end up liking it though that means I'll be buying the manga volumes that get released anyway.

And your sense of society amuses me to be honest. "Piracy is bad. Stop piracy." you say. But then, some posts above you mention you are a translator for a scanlating group.. Now that I think about it, who started calling a certain someone hypocrite?

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» gwkimmy on February 13th, 2012, 9:05am

you do know that the majority of scanlation groups drop a series once it's licensed? right? and that they encourage their fans to buy the official release once it's published? right?

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» PROzess on February 13th, 2012, 9:28am

I didn't say to stop pirating.
I meant, scanlation is a mean that brings manga to the attention of a broader audience. Yes, it's still piracy. But now the official license holder comes and ask you to stop. I would stop immediately if any publisher contacted me about one of my projects. But so far that's not the case. I try to avoid licensed titles after all.
I'm just saying, when there is a official mean available, you shouldn't resort to piracy because its convenient (aka free)

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 10:50am

Of course, I agree with you there, partially. I mean partially because although i buy the translated volumes from the official distributing company I still prefer the scanlated version. It's like I said above, some of the volumes I bought make me want to slap the guy that worked on that series.

And I do agree that the biggest contribute for a widespread sale of a manga is actually piracy.. I know, it sounds crazy but that's what I think. How many of the series that are being distributed by, let's say VIZ, would have such a success if the guys that buy them didn't start reading them through scanlation groups? I'll speak from my own experience, I dunno if I would have bought as many manga volumes, as I did so far, if I didn't read them first over the internet.

I mean, I'm quite skeptical when it comes to spending money and I only do so if I do like something. Otherwise, not only will I not buy that thing, but I won't read/play/listen it anyway. It doesn't matter to me if it's free or not because if I do like it I buy it.

Btw, does anyone know if someone made a study on who reads heavily ecchi content material? I mean:
a) is it an age thing - younger adolescents (16-20) like it more than say adults (21-and above)?
b) is it something that is more appealing to newcomers (<2 years reading manga) than to guys that read manga for a longer time (>2 years)?
c) is it a cultural thing (as in, people from different cultures/countries)?

I actually think this is something fascinating and intriguing really.

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» jrdragon2003 on February 13th, 2012, 5:08am

You're talking about Amuro, yeah he made a big call on where online readers would take us. And it does make sense... I was never one to enjoy speed releases, or the leechers who kept crying for them to the point of group wars. I've even felt the same with how people were handling this watermark issue, like the ones going towards A-Team. (There is a point to what I'm saying stick with me now) But it goes to show how right Amuro and the gang were, scanslations was a total underground thing till online readers popped up, at least in my opinion. And then came along a lot of grandstanding groups that were made completely to spite another group for thier policies or release schedule. All of them made scans more visible, granted companies would find them eventually, but scans and groups back in the day were a lot harder to find. To this day I still remember and love the group null, the knew what they were doing wasn't legal but still wanted to share what they loved with others. Definitely wasn't legal, but bless them for it and their not so easy way of obtaining their releases. With online readers everybody is reading manga, which in know sounds confusing as why that's a problem, it means that it's no longer underground but open piracy with a strange sense of dignity.
Online readers are not really a problem, well the idea at least, if it comes from the companies that own rights to the manga. I've seen the concept work for the American comic industry (yes I said American comics with characters like Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, and such on a manga site), especially since print is still struggling. They've been working on converting themselves on having online releases for pretty much the same price a comic would be sold by, which can range from $2 to $5 (very rarely $5, mostly up to $3). I've yet to see any problems from DC or Marvel cause of it, or that I know of. It just shows companies need to grow with the times, but when you have easily accessable content owned by those said companies, it hinders the process. That's why it was better when scans were more underground and harder to get to.
Well hopefully my rant was understandable...

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 10:58am

Spot on. I guess scanlation will probably go back to irc if things do get worse. Not a bad thing really, when I started reading manga that's how I would get stuff anyway and I still do it nowadays, in some cases.

And online readers biggest issue is the amount of money they generate from the adds they have. Until like 3 years ago I never would have imagined the money they are making out of this, and as soon I realized that I knew trouble would come sooner or later. The biggest issue here is not only the money they get out of other people's work but also the visibility they provide to something that should be treated "underground".

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» jrdragon2003 on February 13th, 2012, 2:41pm

If it does happen it would definitely be for the best. Convenience is nice but it can come at a heavy price, especially for something you don't want anyone to know about. Plus it'll lead to less political drama in the scanslation world too, at least in my opinion it will. To be honest after null my second favorite group to pop in my life had to be A-Team and they got a lot of crap for something they knew was going to turn bad, and people kept bashing them for going to extremes when no one heeded their warnings. If this turns into a lesson to teach all the readers and leechers out there about how important it is to stay underground with and to show patience for releases, I'm all for this loss.

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» r_daneel02 on February 14th, 2012, 12:35pm

oi oi ...this is a sad world....look around u... no ghandi can exist in this world...its how much u can profit out of anothers misery....u can make that much money....none...

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» [][][] on February 12th, 2012, 1:40pm

Salute to all ur works, Mangastream. I will wait for ur new series.
And wow to all these philosophy talk.
I guess adult have their reasoning. But i guess n i hope i wont turn into 1.
*well, onto my next manga to read*

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» RiK.dfs on February 15th, 2012, 8:11am

Read over a bunch of the stuff here and rethink your statement.

It's not "Adult Reasoning". It's not just adults. (Half the posts are probably from kids around 14-16).

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» Baniita on February 12th, 2012, 4:34pm

to the point of exasperation.

I own too much from VIZ. I can never trust their translations to be accurate, their SFXs are hideous (I've always preferred Del Rey's way of labeling them), and they fcuking /blacked out/ the lesbian/gay henge in Naruto. Seriously, they taint the original so much, and their prices are ridiculously higher.

Mangastream's D.Gray-Man scanlations were the only trustworthy and good quality ones. I own every volume from VIZ, despite the quality.

They're a bunch of cowards, honestly. And eff it. They only take snail mail. What the blast furnace is up with that.

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» uzumakiwalid on February 12th, 2012, 6:14pm

* and they fcuking /blacked out/ the lesbian/gay henge in Naruto. Seriously, they taint the original so much, and their prices are ridiculously higher.
Blame that to censoring

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» RiK.dfs on February 15th, 2012, 10:21am

They have to censor for the age group (rating).

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» dosetsu on February 12th, 2012, 4:45pm

Wow. There's even more retarded in this article than the one below it.

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» mako1138 on February 13th, 2012, 1:53am

;________________;

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» thevampirate on February 12th, 2012, 5:56pm

What ever happened to the age old system of starting a new group with new names and a new site when someone slaps a C&D on you. the system works in our favor sometimes. play the system, each group is a entirely different entity and every group needs a C&D before any serious legal actions can be taken. Piracy isn't killing manga, its the manga companies who are ruining their own properties that kill the manga. Even the big Manga giants in japan are mismanaging their properties and it hurts everyone. If anything companies should be mimicking scanlators and aggregators. At the very least they should be going after the aggregators not the small groups who dont profit off their licenses.

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 6:21am

I think that won't work anymore. ACTA, once fully implemented, will prevent that from being a viable solution.

"At the very least they should be going after the aggregators not the small groups who dont profit off their licenses." <- I can't also understand this. The big profits are being made from online reading sites but those seem to be untouchable (mangafox has been around for how long?).

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» saisais on February 12th, 2012, 6:44pm

my idea on how to solve this would be to make a supersite that involves all publishers past and present banding together with scanlators past present to establish a supersite like megaupload in which all the ever manga scanlated can be viewed and in which a scanlation group may be formed. to make this plan a reality all publishers must set aside their differences and as one seek out the leaders of any scanlation group ever created and approach them with a deal in which they are free to translate any series on the condition that the translation only ever be released on this "supersite". the publishers involved in this supersite would then provide full support of translators and provide them with high quality raws if the translators fill out the proper forms. the publishers would need to charge anyone who visits the site and is on it for more than 30minutes a week. the publishers could then charge 100$ a year for membership to the site. and while some of you might find this price high it is in reality very cheap as a member would have full access to any series ever translated. the publishers could then charge an additional 50$ for download links to be available to a member. in other words it would run similar to megaupload but it would be restricted to manga and manhwa. the publishers could then based on how many views a series got in a region then release the manga/manhwa in book form in the specific region. Another way would be to install a type of printing machine into any big name bookstore with which a consumer could input the series he/she wants printed and who they want the translator to be. This is my idea i know it's rough but I think something Like this is possible if the publishers, Authors and the Translators want it enough.

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» catandmouse on February 12th, 2012, 7:40pm

It's not even about the release schedule, it's about the translations, at least for me. I'm willing to wait a bit for releases, heck, I'd buy Bleach in a heartbeat, IF the translations weren't what they are. Maybe I've been spoiled by scanlators and other companies, but I like the honorifics, especially when they are as important to showing familiarity and closeness. So it bothers me to read Orihime call Ichigo "Ichigo" instead of "Kurosaki-kun" of Ishida also call him Ichigo, intead of "Kurosaki."

I've bought some titles from VIZ, some they did an ok job on, like with Beauty Pop and Nightmare Inspector, they left the honorifics, but then with Natsume's Book of Friends, they dropped the honorifics, and that annoys me. I hope they leave the honorifics in Loveless or I'll be really pissed.

On the other hand, there have been countless groups working on Bleach over the years and I'm sure one will rise to the occasion.

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 6:25am

"t's not even about the release schedule, it's about the translations, at least for me. I'm willing to wait a bit for releases, heck, I'd buy Bleach in a heartbeat, IF the translations weren't what they are. Maybe I've been spoiled by scanlators and other companies, but I like the honorifics, especially when they are as important to showing familiarity and closeness. So it bothers me to read Orihime call Ichigo "Ichigo" instead of "Kurosaki-kun" of Ishida also call him Ichigo, intead of "Kurosaki.""

I think this is what bother most people that DO buy manga and it certainly bothers me as well. They should leave the honorifics because that's one of the things most people like about manga.

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» gaara877 on February 13th, 2012, 1:04am

I'm very happy that Viz took it back from Mangastream. I hope we can support Mangaka by buying the manga not read it free. My opinion is better than you all. (P.S : don't kid yourself)

I hope Mangastream can still scan a new manga and make that manga famous.

Like this manga [URL="http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=73271" ]Ino Atama Gargoyle [/URL]

For One piece, Naruto, Bleach, I think we can still read at mangahere, mangafox, mangareader. Don't worry. If you still can't read it, just buy it, simple. I wonder how many year we read it free. huhuhu

P.S : I still wait manga like One Piece, Bleach and Naruto or manga like Dragon Ball, but there are still no manga like it. I think, I have to wait 10 more years.

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» philip72 on February 13th, 2012, 11:08pm

The intent of your comment is as obvious as your grammar is impeccable.
Perhaps rephrase your remarks in English.

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» gaara877 on February 14th, 2012, 2:14am

thank you.^^

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» slove on February 13th, 2012, 7:45am

I'm a 12 year Jump subscriber. I subscribed to NewType when it was published in the US and Otaku and other magazine. I have bought 'official' DVDs, books, etc. I also have a decade's worth of Naruto, Bleach, etc.

Jump USA is being discontinued. The last print publication is on the newsstands now. It's being replaced with Alpha a website.

VIZ has an iPhone/Pad app to read their manga and watch videos. It's flop I hear with problems.

Jump subscribers such as myself have been offered Alpha (the new digital subscription) to compensate us as well as digital copies of 3 manga volumes only for Apple products (I don't own any apple devices only android ones).

VIZ is doing this to protect themselves as the business models they have picked are not producing the revenues they anticipated. Hulu + (which I also have) as well as Netflix/Amazon Video simply don't pay them that much per show. Crunchyroll? they get a better cut there, but again, you don't really have to have a paid subscription (like Hulu) if you're willing to wait a few weeks.

With the continuing demise of bookstores in the US, only online sales are left. Scanlators eat into this business.

Naruto and Bleach are moving into what are the FINAL arcs of their respective stories. Bleach has actually stated this in the storyline. Naruto and Sasuke are finally going to meet in a couple weeks as Naruto has finally come to terms with his potential power but still using pretty much the same jutsu as he has for the last 10 years. Simply put, this is VIZ's and it's Japanese counterparts last chance to capitalize on the two biggest moneymakers they have had, week after week, month after month, year after year. Cutting off the scanlators at the knees is the only way to protect this potential stream of money a this critical juncture, particularly for the Alpha website.

What are they going to publish after this? Yeah, I read the other stuff that's being published. It's good, it's bad, it's dumb, few have the potential for longevity as Bleach and Naruto. How long has Ichigo been in High School? It's time to move on. At least Naruto has gotten to grow up more from his original self.

I appreciate all the scanlators and the work they do. I wish I was talented with Photoshop to help them. Are they better translations? I'm not sure, since Japanese is a hard language to translate, and manga and anime are setup to make who/what they are talking about/to much more clear than regular Japanese which is much more indirect. Scanlators don't look at surveys of who is reading/buying their work, so they don't feel (like Viz does) that they have to cater to 8-12 year olds or 8-12 year old's mothers in terms of language constraints. The Japanese are less constrained, but that is continuing to change as Western influences contaminate more cultures worldwide daily.

I mark this as the beginning of the passing of scanations just as I morn the passing of good quality fansubs thanks to Crunchyroll. Even this site (Baka-updates) isn't what it was 5 years ago. That's copyright law for you.

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» ZL11 on February 13th, 2012, 9:18am

Yeah... I've been reading manga since before TokyoPop bought out Mixx and scanlating in one form or another for as long. I have a box of Mixx Magazines to prove it.

They ditched "MangaBlast" and my other favorite magazines, leaving me with a crappy subscription to NewType, which at the time was god awful and super weak.

To quote, "Shit happens." Viz didn't go down when it was just doing Ranma 1/2 and Banana Fish (and it's few titles at the time, all of which were BADLY translated and 'unflopped.') and I doubt they'll go down any time soon. They're just changing to adjust to the new media types.

Scanlation has been ongoing for like... ages. I doubt that a flurry of C&Ds are going to stop it. It will just force it to find new and different avenues of delivery. Seriously, you can't stop it.

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» Li7hium on February 13th, 2012, 10:38am

Dunno about that. I honestly think ACTA will prove to be a huge problem to scanlating groups. I'm still uncertain to what extent ACTA will influence the fight against piracy or if it's simply an attack to the freedom of speech/debate ideas over the internet. One thing is certain, the Internet as we know it today won't be the same when ACTA is seriously implemented and that is what frightens me, really.

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» slove on February 14th, 2012, 3:35pm

look at what happened when Google pulled it's ad engines a couple years ago when some a-hole claimed that Dance in the Vampire Bund was child porno and not a hundreds of years old vampire child figure without morals (just like one in Anne Rice's Conversation with a Vampire)? It completely changed everything without ACTA. Sites and groups fell right and left without click-though ad money. Even in Japan over the last 10 years there has been a real cooling off of the whole loli/shouta category with the rewrite of many pornography classifications that they've never had before to make western states (UK/US etc) happy.

Additionally the Japanese publishers demands for full compensation (equal to what they charge in Japan) as a base payment on top of the expense/profit needed to make anime and manga in the US has brought us to an impasse. A hundred pages of manga costs what? A video dvd costs what? They're expensive no matter how you look at it. You'd think you were buying hard cover best sellers or blue ray disks with lots of extras (when it's only dvds without extras). It's a pricing model that doesn't work and promotes leeching. Even the damned Alpha subscriptions are expensive compared to the print editions, but there isn't any print ad revenue even if there is almost twice the manga.

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» 911119 on February 13th, 2012, 9:28am

Its just about time, they were too big to escape. The only trouble is we will be seeing a dozen of Naruto and Bleach releases for a couple of weeks until things settle down

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» Milleniummaster18 on February 13th, 2012, 10:21pm

At last, the dying snake shows its fangs filled with poisonous greed, knowing that it may be the last time it shows them.

The business model is the thing that doesn't work; not with the internet, not with the increasing number of smart-shopping people, yet they don't seem to get it, do they?

Then they shall perish, since advertising doesn't change the people drastically anymore (oversaturation, what else?), nor does the government, SOPA was proof of that.

It's time for the "new" generation to take the reins of the business world.

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» D_P on February 14th, 2012, 8:43am

Lol. Fansubbing world doesn't have this bullshit. Fansubbers are smart enough not to give a fuck about American localization companies and leechers are smart enough not to give a fuck about legality.

Also
> shounenshit

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» r_daneel02 on February 14th, 2012, 12:38pm

yea...f*** legality...f*** usa...

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» RS456 on February 14th, 2012, 5:26pm

Its more of a problem on Viz's end their manga sales are not doing so well. Prices for each volume is quite high even most magazines printed on high quality paper with alot of material are not priced that high.

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» jessiemcf on February 14th, 2012, 6:24pm

So one of fifty of the groups doing these series stops... color me surprised.

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» lbum on February 14th, 2012, 7:36pm

Well viz is offering a weekly shonen jump on line called Alpha the only problem is that its 2 weeks behind and it only cost 25 dollars per year, thats a pretty damn good deal considering it breaks down to 2 dollars a month or like 50 per week it is has the latest chapters of bleach naruto one piece and a couple others. I signed up for it and sent an email saying I would prefer it was up to date release. Hell if others did that it might actually cause them to release them as they come out.

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» animefreak2711 on February 15th, 2012, 3:13am

Lets face it, without scans and fansubs I wouldn't have known about Japanese Manga and Anime. It is thanks to them that I have found something that has helped me through life and will continue to do so. It has opened up many doors that wouldn't have been there other wise. Needless to say, I am really sad about Mangastream, as I read them every week. Scans should not go away. That is how you introduce manga to the world. And as far as new ones, I think they should still do them. What Mangastream did with only have the lastest releases with about 5 chapters in archive, was smart and should have been see as helpful and not hinder anything. After all there are times in One Piece that I rather just like to skip through it sometimes because I get sick of it. If it wasn't for being able to see the new chapters and see where the story is going, than I might have really dropped the series. Leaving it only to buying them as they come out to print would make me waste money if they really ended up being something I had to drop. Yes Viz is doing their Alpha thing, but honestly I don't see myself paying for something like that. I mean I have to really go through and decide which mangas I can get. Having to pay for something like that and then having to pay for the print of it would kill me money wise. I understand there need to do this and all but they really need to think about it. After all, ask yourselves which would you rather pay for; a copy of weekly chapters or getting a whole volume? I have to go with the volume myself. And I do buy manga, lots of it infact but I don't have a lot of money to spend on it. I mean it is like this, I can choose to buy manga or anime (which is always hard to decide) or I can buy myself those new clothes I need or new shoes. I know it is really bad of me but I always say to hell with buying those things and get anime/manga instead. Then I feel bad about it when I see that I am wearing several year-old clothes. But at the same time I am extremely happy I bought the anime/manga to help contribute to both the people who make it plus to my own collection. And what about all of those other series of manga that are and will never be brought over to America? I would never get to read them or know the joy they give me. So yes, there is problems but lets think of better solutions.

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» r_daneel02 on February 15th, 2012, 6:14am

@t1 well u said mangazone and mangareader mangafox are all one whole damn company profiteering...
well they are considering there is no updated forum no interaction between members and forum admins ts cleaners et all...but they provided the goods for the bug 3 this week hope they do all d time....don care abt ads and them maing money... i alwayz use adblock neway.... which idiot doesnt....confused

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» gwkimmy on February 15th, 2012, 10:49am

thanks for contributing to the problem and not bothering with alternatives. carry on.

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» Rashidisw on February 15th, 2012, 10:09am

The best way to support mangaka, is to buy the Japan Volumes (physical copy) and not from localized distributor such as VIZ Media.

How so?
1. Fate of the series pretty much depend of japanese publiser whim, which largely depend of their sales report.

2. For some reason even if the Manga Titles popular among us gaijin, but unpopular (in sales term) in japan, very likely that manga will be axed sooner than later.
We don't want something like that happened again right? *cough*Mx0*cough*

3. Japan publisher got more revenues per volumes from sales in japan, than revenues per volume from licensing to localized publisher such as Viz. This heavily weighted publisher decision to axe the manga or not.

Above reasons is why you should buy/import the manga from japan if you decided to support the author / mangaka.
Therefore buying from Viz actually misguided acts that doesn't really support the mangaka than what you actually intended, even if you can't read Japanese.

Importing manga can also support scanlantion groups. For non-Ignorant people, yhis should be obvious.

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» Kittycat101 on February 16th, 2012, 2:04am

VIZ can see how profitable going online would be and yet they refuse. all they have to do is what most groups already are doing. set up a system like this, release chapters every week up to date with the Japanese ones for free. Open an online store, and add some ads on the sidebar. BAM. profit. instead they insist on selling a hard copy volumes for $10 a pop. They'll die out just like blockbuster did when netflix came out. They already obviously are. If i could, i would love to support the authors. but i cant afford to buy an entire series when each volume is so much. Its a lack of quality service, that drives people to the hassle of pirating things. Please realize this soon, Viz.

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» DragoZERO on February 16th, 2012, 9:34am

And MangaFox still remains. What the hell!?

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» julyrain on February 16th, 2012, 9:37am

Although I do appreciate VIZ's efforts to put out manga in English, and I support the mangaka, I still love scanlations. Of course I love free things, but they are more than just free manga. Fans get together to share their passion and they work, sometimes just as hard as the professional companies. I know how hard it is to translate + edit manga, ironically, but working as a scanlator.

VIZ is slow. No other way around it, just slow. Yes some scanlations are rushed. Yes the translations aren't perfect. But they have some good quality scanlations, and these "amateurs" can put it out in a matter of hours. If VIZ has professional translators, they could be faster. And for some, I even like the fan-translations better. For example, Bleach and One Piece had really great translations from VIZ, but as for Katekyo Hitman Reborn, well, I honesty detest "To the limit" translation of the "official" manga. Same goes for the fansubs.

While I do read Shonen Jump Monthly, I still dislike the fact that I have to wait a month for it. I wish There could be an English version of Weekly Shonen Jump, but sadly, the market for manga is not as large in the US as it is in Japan.

And why can't VIZ have their own online reader as well? I agree that it takes time and work, but Korea did it with Naver, and that's pretty successful. Their manga is good enough that I'd buy a volume if I was in Korea myself. Honesty, Korea does a better job of utilizing the Internet to their advantage. VIZ has a right to stop the scanlations and enforce it by law, but if they did their work better, then they wouldn't need to. The scanlations would die out by themselves then.

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» Kittycat101 on February 16th, 2012, 5:37pm

exactly what i was trying to say! ^^

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» akuma_river on February 21st, 2012, 3:19am

Reborn isn't even being distributed in the US anymore. VIZ killed it pretty bad by making it a gag manga and kept it up and even then fans were buying it and laughing at the mistakes and posting it up on the internet about how horrible the translations were...but they were still buying it.

Then VIZ decided to kill it.

It's just like with network television the corporations just care about the money and don't care about the actual product. When it makes less than what their exaggerated estimates were then they kill it and write it off as a business loss to use for tax deductions. How else do you think GE paid 10 dollars in taxes one year?

I wonder how much VIZ pays in taxes. How many deductions do they get for these 'failed' series.

I'm just tired of investing myself and my money and the series being canceled or delayed. I'm not a millionaire and I already have over a thousand manga volumes. Over half of which are failed series.

So I'm pretty pissed at all this 'copyright infringement' bullshit. The MPAA/RIAA MAFIAA created a law, paid the lawmakers off, and got it passed so they can shut down their competition. Illegal? Theft?

Also over 1/3 of ALL DMCA notices are fraudulently made and are used to snuff out the competition. That is extortion.

Technically speaking translating a work and editing it and cleaning it can fit under Fair Use by art and literary means as it is a TRANSFORMATIVE work. People just argue on how much you need to change a source material for it to no longer be qualified under stringent 'copyright' and fits under Fair Use. The fact that no one is charging for the work can also be said to follow under education means...since the internet is technically an international library.

I think there was a lawsuit once over this book that was translated and the original publisher wanted to kill it but the one that did the translation actually fought it and won in a court of law. But it was also a MAJOR corporation backed publisher.

Then again with ACTA Fair Use and a whole lot of other protections against being called a 'thief' are being torn away. Unless you got the money to buy a new law. After all, our congress is a bought congress.

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» wolfinthesheep on April 18th, 2012, 3:58pm

Quote from akuma_river
Technically speaking translating a work and editing it and cleaning it can fit under Fair Use by art and literary means as it is a TRANSFORMATIVE work. People just argue on how much you need to change a source material for it to no longer be qualified under stringent 'copyright' and fits under Fair Use. The fact that no one is charging for the work can also be said to follow under education means...since the internet is technically an international library.


Any and all chance of a Fair Use claim is thrown out the window as soon as the scanlating groups release the full manga art.

If it was purely the transcription, then the court may find in your favour. There is no grey area when it comes to redistributing the entirety of the original work.

I wish people would stop pretending about the legality of Scanlation.

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» FormX on April 18th, 2012, 3:46pm

One Piece, Bleach and Naruto came out today.

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» smarts on April 19th, 2012, 12:21am

Quote from FormX
One Piece, Bleach and Naruto came out today.

lol so much for Mangastream dropping them xD im glad

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