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News Article
New Poll - Bust
This week's poll about bust size is by gosutoika. It's a pretty random one... And you can imagine whatever manga you want to create. With all other things being equal, which option would you choose?

You can submit poll ideas here (and try to keep them manga/anime-related)
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903

Previous Poll Results:
Question: If you somehow knew a huge anime/manga spoiler and no one else in the world knew yet, you would...
Choices:
Curse yourself because you hate spoilers, and now it's too late - votes: 2460 (24.2%)
Don't proactively do anything with the info. Doesn't matter if word gets out or stays a secret - votes: 1728 (17%)
Never tell anyone until it became public knowledge - votes: 731 (7.2%)
Tell people that you know something but withhold the details - votes: 818 (8%)
Only tell a couple of trusted friends - votes: 342 (3.4%)
Tell everyone you know! - votes: 116 (1.1%)
Post it all over the Internet - votes: 311 (3.1%)
Discretely tell a known loudmouth so that they spoil the world and can take the blame - votes: 225 (2.2%)
Only tell people who want to know and don't mind being spoiled - votes: 2409 (23.7%)
Sell the secret for a bunch of money - votes: 545 (5.4%)
Blackmail the creators of the anime/manga that you know their secrets - votes: 489 (4.8%)
There were 10174 total votes.
The poll ended: November 2nd 2013

Hmm, seems like many of you don't like spoilers and wouldn't want to subject someone else to spoilers unless they wanted. You're too nice~
Posted by lambchopsil on November 2nd 9:26am Comments ( 96 )  [ View ]  [ Add ]
Comments

» RoxFlowz on November 2nd, 2013, 3:13am

Finally my signature is relevant.... Flat Is Justice!

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» chomio on November 2nd, 2013, 3:35am

That last one is just perfect for a comedy...
However all others have average. smile
People choosing impossibly large have never seen the real deal. cool

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» Damnedman on November 5th, 2013, 2:54pm

I chose above average since there's nothing wrong in a bit of fantasy. It does get a bit ridiculous when they're the size of watermelons though. Imagine all the back pains no

Quote from chomio
That last one is just perfect for a comedy...

It'd be nice if that's true in real life. Gynecomastia is the name of the condition and is a source of bullying unfortunately. Case in point (NSFW sort of)

thread

» SlyzertVoltrond on November 2nd, 2013, 3:48am

Big oppai FTW!

Japan is very well-known for its seemingly endless variety of big-breasted women(at least on the internet), we should cherish that. xD

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» TKS on November 2nd, 2013, 7:33am

Ha ha ha

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» har12430 on November 2nd, 2013, 4:26am

I think below average would be just right for a character in a moe/comedy story

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» SilverStorm on November 2nd, 2013, 4:28am

So, is the next poll about the penis size of our characters?

thread

» cowsrawesome on November 2nd, 2013, 11:35pm

Quote from SilverStorm
So, is the next poll about the penis size of our characters?


I really think it should be. I actually really am kind of disgusted by this poll, and some of the responses especially. As a woman with D-cup breasts, gotta say I really hate the way men stare and harass me because of it. Plus the assholes who often try to grope them and shit. It's probably one of the main reasons I can't read ecchi. too much of that shit endorses really shitty ass behaviour by men that comes way too close to a lot of the harassment and vile shit that i've had to put up with. I have to wear heavy sweatshirts even in the summer just to ride the city bus without feeling uncomfortable and even then I still have to put up with catcalling. It's enough that I have to put up with objectifying assholes in real life who reduce me to the size of my boobs, I really don't wanna be forced to read about them in manga or see a poll do the exact same thing.

Anyway, it's just so great to see a poll centered around both making fun of fat people and objectifying women smile so exciting to see how far society has progressed.

thread

» KaoriNite on November 2nd, 2013, 11:52pm

kind of agree.

If I were making a manga with a female character, her bust size wouldn't be something that I would focus a lot of attention on because it wouldn't be that important to the plot. Unless it was a hentai or smut manga. Either way, it would be a realistic size.

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» -shiratori- on November 3rd, 2013, 7:45pm

Quote from cowsrawesome
Quote from SilverStorm
So, is the next poll about the penis size of our characters?


I really think it should be. I actually really am kind of disgusted by this poll, and some of the responses especially. As a woman with D-cup breasts, gotta say I really hate the way men stare and harass me because of it. Plus the assholes who often try to grope them and shit. It's probably one of the main reasons I can't read ecchi. too much of that shit endorses really shitty ass behaviour by men that comes way too close to a lot of the harassment and vile shit that i've had to put up with. I have to wear heavy sweatshirts even in the summer just to ride the city bus without feeling uncomfortable and even then I still have to put up with catcalling. It's enough that I have to put up with objectifying assholes in real life who reduce me to the size of my boobs, I really don't wanna be forced to read about them in manga or see a poll do the exact same thing.

Anyway, it's just so great to see a poll centered around both making fun of fat people and objectifying women smile so exciting to see how far society has progressed.


lol I'm fat and I don't mind the manboobs thing. You don't have to take everything so seriously. And the poll question is actually legitimate, as you would be faced with this decision when drawing a manga. It's not about reducing the character so the size of their boobs, but you cannot ignore it either as you have to give the character some kind of breasts if its female. Personal preference aside, it should simply fit the character.

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» cowsrawesome on November 3rd, 2013, 9:24pm

That's great that you're not offended, but I'm also fat. And I am. You don't speak for all fat people. And I can take this as personally as I like, I've been dehumanized and objectified all my life, so if I feel like railing against it when I'm smacked in the face with it on a site I like to visit often, I will. Yes, cleavage is an attribute most women have, but I seriously haven't seen a poll comparing penis size yet, and until I do, I'll call this shit out for the sexist pile of bs that it is.

But even if there is a poll asking for penis size, this will still be sexist, as women are objectified far differently than men. Actually, while men can and have been sexualized it is literally impossible to objectify them, as psychological tests have actually proven, that when people see women in a sexualized setting, particularly men, the part in their brain that is used is the exact same used when they are about to use a tool. The reverse doesn't happen. I could go into social theory and how society's repeated degradation of women and objectification of women's bodies has contributed to domestic violence, rape culture and patriarchal oppression, but I don't honestly think it's worth my time.

Good day, and please don't patronize me with your trivial "don't take this so personally" bullshit.

Again, I have to deal with the direct consequences of men thinking classifying women by boob size is ok. from your post, I'm guessing, you don't, so please stfu and gtfo.

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» -shiratori- on November 4th, 2013, 5:43am

Quote from cowsrawesome
That's great that you're not offended, but I'm also fat. And I am. You don't speak for all fat people. And I can take this as personally as I like, I've been dehumanized and objectified all my life, so if I feel like railing against it when I'm smacked in the face with it on a site I like to visit often, I will. Yes, cleavage is an attribute most women have, but I seriously haven't seen a poll comparing penis size yet, and until I do, I'll call this shit out for the sexist pile of bs that it is.

But even if there is a poll asking for penis size, this will still be sexist, as women are objectified far differently than men. Actually, while men can and have been sexualized it is literally impossible to objectify them, as psychological tests have actually proven, that when people see women in a sexualized setting, particularly men, the part in their brain that is used is the exact same used when they are about to use a tool. The reverse doesn't happen. I could go into social theory and how society's repeated degradation of women and objectification of women's bodies has contributed to domestic violence, rape culture and patriarchal oppression, but I don't honestly think it's worth my time.

Good day, and please don't patronize me with your trivial "don't take this so personally" bullshit.

Again, I have to deal with the direct consequences of men thinking classifying women by boob size is ok. from your post, I'm guessing, you don't, so please stfu and gtfo.


Calm down. Really. This poll says nothing about how important or unimportant breast size is, you are just being paranoid. If you want, go to the adult section and make a thread about penis size lol, I don't think anyone will be offended by it.

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» Scyfon on November 4th, 2013, 6:18am

Quote from cowsrawesome
That's great that you're not offended, but I'm also fat. And I am. You don't speak for all fat people. And I can take this as personally as I like, I've been dehumanized and objectified all my life, so if I feel like railing against it when I'm smacked in the face with it on a site I like to visit o ...

User Posted Image

Quote
If you don't like the poll, don't look at it, don't vote on it. No one's holding a gun to your head. No one is putting YOU up for display. It's not all about you.

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» SilverStorm on November 4th, 2013, 3:49pm

My way or the highway, huh?

I wouldn't say I'm offended... but I found this poll distasteful.

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» Textualpoacher on November 4th, 2013, 8:52pm

Quote from cowsrawesome
I really think it should be. I actually really am kind of disgusted by this poll, and some of the responses especially. As a woman with D-cup breasts, gotta say I really hate the way men stare and harass me because of it. Plus the assholes who often try to grope them and shit. It's probably one of ...

YES! Where's the "Who cares" option?

Quote from -shiratori-
Calm down. Really. This poll says nothing about how important or unimportant breast size is, you are just being paranoid. If you want, go to the adult section and make a thread about penis size lol, I don't think anyone will be offended by it.

That's right, we are so emotional and hysterical for taking this personally and not logically. And why does a penis size poll belong in the adult section while the breast size poll is publicized through the entire Baka website anyway? By adding that extra protection, extra step of going to the adult section you would be guaranteeing that no one will be offended.

Quote from -shiratori-
You don't have to take everything so seriously. And the poll question is actually legitimate, as you would be faced with this decision when drawing a manga. It's not about reducing the character so the size of their boobs, but you cannot ignore it either as you have to give the character some kind of breasts if its female. Personal preference aside, it should simply fit the character.

The poll implies that the most important thing about a female character is the size of her breasts. I don't care what intention goes into the thinking behind this poll, this is how it comes off to a lot of people.

Where does objectification come into play? Look at the wording. "You are creating a manga with a female character." One, I have not read a manga without a female character. Two, why a female character? Don't we have the option of having multiple female characters? All female characters should be different, why is the poll treating them as if they are the same? Are all women reducible to one blob of titties?

Three, why does boob size even matter? Why is it the first thing to consider when you are creating a female character? The poll doesn't say that it is but again, that's how the poll comes off. Fourth, WHY DOES BOOB SIZE MATTER? Is it somehow indicative of personality?

Look at the type of response this poll elicits. "Personal preferences aside"? Please, this poll is about personal preferences. Why does it ask for just a female character then? What's next, a poll that asks "You are creating a manga with a female character, she is (submissive) (abrasive) (sensual)"? News flash, women are different and that's still misogynistic bs.

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» Scyfon on November 4th, 2013, 9:54pm

Quote from Textualpoacher
YES! Where's the "Who cares" option?

I feel like this question gets asked every week, so this answer goes out to everyone who repeats it every week.

No one cares that you care about people caring whether or not that you care about the poll you don't like.

Quote
Quote from -shiratori-
You don't have to take everything so seriously. And the poll question is actually legitimate, as you would be faced with this decision when drawing a manga. It's not about reducing the character so the size of their boobs, but you cannot ignore it either as you have to give the character some kind of breasts if its female. Personal preference aside, it should simply fit the character.

The poll implies that the most important thing about a female character is the size of her breasts. I don't care what intention goes into the thinking behind this poll, this is how it comes off to a lot of people.

Where does objectification come into play? Look at the wording. "You are creating a manga with a female character." One, I have not read a manga without a female character. Two, why a female character? Don't we have the option of having multiple female characters? All female characters should be different, why is the poll treating them as if they are the same? Are all women reducible to one blob of titties?

Three, why does boob size even matter? Why is it the first thing to consider when you are creating a female character? The poll doesn't say that it is but again, that's how the poll comes off. Fourth, WHY DOES BOOB SIZE MATTER? Is it somehow indicative of personality?

Look at the type of response this poll elicits. "Personal preferences aside"? Please, this poll is about personal preferences. Why does it ask for just a female character then? What's next, a poll that asks "You are creating a manga with a female character, she is (submissive) (abrasive) (sensual)"? News flash, women are different and that's still misogynistic bs.

Although the question could've been worded more adequately (let's face it - we're not all English majors here) it seems like the majority of the forumites understood it better than you did.

Yes, ultimately the question objectifies (fictional!) women, but it goes deeper than that. As a character designer/mangaka, it is up to you whether or not sex appeal plays a part in the sales of your product.
If you think you can work it with "normal" sizes and rely on your story-telling abilities, go for your life, if you want the series to be a little bit ecchi to cater to a niche demographic, you can do that too.
THAT'S why boob sizes matter. The forum is filled with different types of people with different types of tastes. You talk as if this is forced upon you. You bring up misogyny as if you don't have even a hint of misandristic agenda.

Heck, I don't get why people are so fucking upset when the winning vote is going to "average".
That should tell you something.

So yes, you are being a little hysterical for taking this so damn irrationally.

User Posted Image

I mean, why you're even taking this poll seriously is beyond me. I mean...how can you not vote the last option?!

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» Textualpoacher on November 5th, 2013, 1:13am

Quote from Scyfon
Although the question could've been worded more adequately (let's face it - we're not all English majors here) it seems like the majority of the forumites understood it better than you did.

Yes, ultimately the question objectifies (fictional!) women, but it goes deeper than that. As a character designer/mangaka, it is up to you whether or not sex appeal plays a part in the sales of your product.
If you think you can work it with "normal" sizes and rely on your story-telling abilities, go for your life, if you want the series to be a little bit ecchi to cater to a niche demographic, you can do that too.
THAT'S why boob sizes matter. The forum is filled with different types of people with different types of tastes. You talk as if this is forced upon you. You bring up misogyny as if you don't have even a hint of misandristic agenda.

Heck, I don't get why people are so fucking upset when the winning vote is going to "average".
That should tell you something.

So yes, you are being a little hysterical for taking this so damn irrationally.

User Posted Image

I mean, why you're even taking this poll seriously is beyond me. I mean...how can you not vote the last option?!


This response is very funny. For one, none of the points I made are rebuked. This response does not actually hurt any of my arguments.

For another, I said I didn't care about the intention of the poll maker. "Although it could have been worded more adequately" is not an excuse. I am telling you how it comes off to some people. "Although it could have been worded more adequately" does not negate what my entire post was about: that the poll purports to ask about characterization while it is eliciting answers about what kind of boob size do people prefer on female characters? That the poll reduces all females to a sex object.

Re: "sex sells", one, the fact that sex sells does not excuse going to the most vapid place possible when talking about female characters. Two, boob size still doesn't matter to someone's characterization. Three, in this thread I have not seen anyone talking about it from a marketing perspective. Who's the one out of touch with the rest of the forum? Neither does marketing immediately come to mind when someone sees this question--what does come to mind is blatant misogyny. Fourth, "callous" and "rational" are not synonyms.

You do know that an emotional reaction to something =/= being irrational? Did I use reasoning and evidence in my last post. Yes, yes I did.

Wait, I have something even better. From Derailing for Dummies:

Quote
You’re Being Overemotional
It is very likely that the whole reason the marginalized person in question is debating with you is because they’ve made a conscious decision to speak out about these issues, despite the pain and heartache it can often cause them. Therefore, the “you’re being hostile” bomb can often lead to an increase of anger and/or hurt. Sometimes it just leads to greater emphasis and exasperation in the argument. It really doesn’t matter, because you can still use it against them by accusing them of being overemotional. You may wish to use the word “hysterical” instead. “Hysterical” is also a word laden with negative connotations, so it’s particularly effective. Using this one in discussions with women is highly advisable, as the opinions and feelings of women have historically been denied as mere “hysteria”, but it works against almost anyone. A great one to use with women as well is to ask them if they’re “PMSing”. Yes, it’s an oldie but a classic.

After all, proper “intellectual” discussions always involve detachment and rationality. What is “rationality”? It’s a way of approaching emotional matters devoid of sentiment, particularly prized by Privileged People® as it enables a continuing inequity of power that favors them: after all, if they aren’t emotionally attached to the topic by way of lived experience, it is easier for them to be “rational”

You’re Just Oversensitive
Once again, though very similar to You’re Being Overemotional, this one has a slightly different nuance. What you’re implying is that the marginalized person is looking for offence where none exists. Once again, you’re disowning your own responsibility, and this is absolutely the crux of any derailment – you just can’t repeat or reinforce it often enough. No matter what, none of this is your fault – nothing you said that was hurtful, offensive, bigoted or discriminatory is really to blame here, because you said it in all innocence! After all, what reason have you ever had to examine your ingrained prejudices? Why should you start now?So you want the marginalized person to know this is how you feel and that you really believe the responsibility is all theirs – if they weren’t looking so hard for offence, everything would be a lot more pleasant!

You’re Taking Things Too Personally
Similar to You’re Being Overemotional and yet with particular uses of its own. You see, when you say “you’re taking things too personally” you demonstrate your ignorance that these issues ARE personal for them! That’s highly insulting and is sure to rub anyone up the wrong way. That you’re already refusing to consider their reality is giving them a pretty good indication of how the conversation is going to digress yet the natural human need for understanding will probably compel them to try and reason with you.


Quote from Scyfon
No one cares that you care about people caring whether or not that you care about the poll you don't like.

Because I want to believe that for some people boob size doesn't matter? Because I want to believe in humanity? It depends on what kind of poll it is that "Who cares" should be relevant.

By the bye, it really, really doesn't make me feel better that "Average" is coming out on top. One, that is beside the point. Two, it is still people (men) saying something about how women should be in order to appeal to them.

thread

» Scyfon on November 5th, 2013, 3:24am

Quote from Textualpoacher
"Although it could have been worded more adequately" does not negate what my entire post was about: that the poll purports to ask about characterization while it is eliciting answers about what kind of boob size do people prefer on female characters? That the poll reduces all females to a sex object.

Again, no.
Fictional female characters != Real life female (ie. you...?)

Unless of course, you're part of a newfound species of human/cartoon character crossbreed that I haven't been aware of since I started living under a rock - because if so, then I totally understand your empathy towards your 2D sistrens and apologize.

If not, then what is it to you how other people perceive and treat their fantastical characters? Because, again, THEY'RE NOT REAL PEOPLE.

You may bring up how all this reflects upon how society expects the female gender to dress/act/behave like in real life - but with this kind of topic, you're generally dealing with OTAKUS.
Otakus dgaf about the 3D world in general. They're thinking specifically about 2D while answering this question - because it's asking about creating a MANGA CHARACTER not a real person.

If you wanna talk about derailment, you're the one who took it so personally and brought brought checkers pieces to a chess game.

Quote
Re: "sex sells", one, the fact that sex sells does not excuse going to the most vapid place possible when talking about female characters.

Boobs = vapid in a "sex sells" argument? lolwut
What do you suggest we talk about instead? dat booty?

Quote
Two, boob size still doesn't matter to someone's characterization.

When I said "character designer" I meant actual concept artists who are in charge of VISUALLY designing characters for marketing purposes. Characterization can (but not always) be an after-thought in their line of work. Sexual appeal could matter to someone's characterization. If Faye Valentine did not have the sexual appeal that she does, there was no way she could've got things to go her way using her methods.

Quote
Three, in this thread I have not seen anyone talking about it from a marketing perspective. Who's the one out of touch with the rest of the forum? Neither does marketing immediately come to mind when someone sees this question--what does come to mind is blatant misogyny.

Well it came to mind to me? It's part of my job. And just because I'm the first person to bring it up doesn't necessarily mean I'm the first to think of it too. You CAN vote without having to voice your opinions about it.

Liking sexually attractive women is as misogynistic as liking sexually attractive men is misandristic. Just because a person prefers his women/men (real or not) to cater their every need and desires doesn't make them a misogynist/misandrist. It just means they've either got a spoiled ego or they're just chauvinistic.

Quote
Quote from Scyfon
No one cares that you care about people caring whether or not that you care about the poll you don't like.

Because I want to believe that for some people boob size doesn't matter? Because I want to believe in humanity?

TIL fictional boob size is a reason to believe in humanity.

Quote
It depends on what kind of poll it is that "Who cares" should be relevant.

Well in THIS POLL it isn't relevant because that defeats the entire purpose of asking for specific answers.

When you're filling out a form and you come across a question that does not apply to you, do you leave it blank or do you demand a new form to be printed out with an option thats says that you're not applicable?

When you did multiple-choice tests in primary school and you couldn't figure out the answer, did you make yourself an option for "DERP I DUNNO" ?

If someone doesn't care about the subject topic of a poll, then they shouldn't have to be tallied for the final result. Saying they should is a fairly conceited statement and, to be frank, pretty fucking narcissistic.

Quote
By the bye, it really, really doesn't make me feel better that "Average" is coming out on top. One, that is beside the point. Two, it is still people (men) saying something about how women should be in order to appeal to them.

I have a 250cc Kawasaki, but I wish it looked exactly like a 1000cc Ducati. Do I still ride it? Yes, because I'm thankful for what I have even though it isn't what I truly want.
You don't always get what you want in real life, but it doesn't mean you can't appreciate what you have. Your kind of thinking makes me question whether or not you've even been a serious relationship or even at all.

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» 狂気 on November 5th, 2013, 10:19am

Quote from Textualpoacher
That's right, we are so emotional and hysterical for taking this personally and not logically.

What's the connection with taking something something personally or logically. No wait—how do you take something logically?

Quote from Textualpoacher
The poll implies that the most important thing about a female character is the size of her breasts. I don't care what intention goes into the thinking behind this poll, this is how it comes off to a lot of people.

Who are these "a lot of people" who it comes off like that? To me it seems it's your bias that implies that.

Quote from Textualpoacher
Don't we have the option of having multiple female characters? All female characters should be different, why is the poll treating them as if they are the same?

A valid point. It seems more logical to think the question is about the protagonist.

Quote from Textualpoacher
why does boob size even matter? Why is it the first thing to consider when you are creating a female character?

Again, no one said it's the first thing to consider. As for the question itself, I do think it's rather relevant. Firstly, I am inclined to consider the poll being about the protagonist due to the original question "you're about to enter the anime world as a female character, you want your character bust size"—if you start nitpicking there's no end to it, and there's no merit in it in the first place.

Now relevant why? Because of the variety that is apparent in manga nowadays. Pettanko is the standard type for shoujo manga but there are ones with large bust also. Especially in shounen manga the variety is huge and sometimes the majority of the body volume of a person can be in their bust size. Putting aside the realism or the sexual implications and what not, this poll is (as you said) about personal opinion: "which size would you choose?" The comparison of mainstream (or any other) manga standards and our community preferences the poll is interesting.

One more point I need to touch is your question "Why does boob size matter? Is it somehow indicative of personality?". To a certain extent I'd say, yes, it is. But that's not my point. My point is: why does it need to be? Are you saying personality is all that matters? Then why not just draw all characters to look the same except for a number on their forehead so you know who's who? Appearance does matter, even in a book where there is only text and especially on a manga where you can see the characters. Why would only breasts not matter?

Usually the people who complain something for being prejudicial or whatnot only touch comments about that specific subject being irrelevant to the actual prejudice. I'd say that's what's really prejudicial.

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» darkraiders on November 2nd, 2013, 4:31am

I choosed average, but i'm not sure how big is average, personally i like breast that fit in my hand, i don't mind a bit bigger then that, but not much.
I also don't mind small breast, but i hate ridiculously large breast.

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» red255 on November 2nd, 2013, 5:17am

your main character? Nothing about her should be average.

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» nakie08 on November 2nd, 2013, 7:52am

I chose above average. I don't want them to be so big that one can easily be bigger than her head xp

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» AceBunneh on November 2nd, 2013, 9:36am

Depends on the character. I feel that her personality should reflect the environment she's had to deal with as a result of her body and other things. There are other factors which go into it such as her family and how her financial situation is to determine the amount of nutrition she would have had over her live time up until now.

Lastly it depends on the genre of manga I'm going for..

I believe I said average.. I don't know..
I'll just say a fair B cup or something (US).

P.S. Am I taking this too seriously? D:

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» jrdragon2003 on November 2nd, 2013, 10:15am

This is probably the most well thought out answer I've ever seen in a long time. It's actually rather refreshing. With that being said, the manboobs choice is funny, but it makes me wonder about how many heavy set main characters are there around?

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» butako chan on November 2nd, 2013, 9:37am

While pettanko would have been the more interesting choice, I chose above average. If I were to create a manga, why stay not make my girls sexy as hell?

Note: For those of you who don't know what the average bust size is, it is a B-cup to C-up depending on the race (y'know, Asian vs African).

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» -shiratori- on November 2nd, 2013, 11:07am

Tough choice between "flat-chested" and "tiny" but I chose tiny in the end. Just a little to show a slight bulge in profile view. Life is bliss.

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» TundraDweller on November 2nd, 2013, 12:14pm

I'm thinking of a strong female lead in a fantasy story. I chose "above average" bust size. I would have gone for "big", however I know how freaky the "impossibly big" can be and "big" can only be moderately less freaky. If we were talking about any culture other than that of Japan, I'd go for "big" bust size for my female MC.

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» tactics on November 2nd, 2013, 1:13pm

I went for above average. It's actually pretty easy to get carried away when drawing breasts on female characters laugh

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» 狂気 on November 2nd, 2013, 1:23pm

貧乳はステータ スだ!希少価値 だ!

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» forgottenone666 on November 2nd, 2013, 1:33pm

I went with average but personally I don't really care too much about breast size. A character with a nice ass on the other hand is more my thing.

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» HotaruFan on November 2nd, 2013, 2:14pm

Does "Average" in this case mean average in real life or average in a typical anime/manga?

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» Vesey on November 2nd, 2013, 4:17pm

Well I'm a female, so my female lead would probably resemble me.

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» senile_seinen on November 2nd, 2013, 6:44pm

In manga, I like them to 'make sense' for the character. If the girl is, say, a serious athlete, it's generally rare to see a lot of fat anywhere on her, including her chest. Anything involving a first year highschooler or younger should probably be pretty flat-chested as well unless she's a gaijin exchange student because, well, the Japanese generally are not really even started filling out at that age.

It's all about context. You'll note that there are very few busty characters in shoujo or josei. I'm guessing that's because all five busty japanese female readers don't mind, but the more average kabe-onna would mind a busty lead. I always thought the impossible udders on lots of hentai and ecchi shounen were rather lame, actually.

And, for the record as a heterosexual old guy with a life, my personal preferences run toward the middle of the range, as I found there were examples that were both 'just too big' and 'it'd be nice if there were something there besides ribs.'

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» SlyzertVoltrond on November 3rd, 2013, 3:57am

Heh, as expected of a seinen, always so insightful.

You should update your blog sometimes, I really love reading it.

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» Drox on November 2nd, 2013, 8:33pm

I honestly wish that more female manga characters were drawn with more typical breast sizes. I may be in the minority here, but I do not find unrealistically massive breasts to be attractive. Unfortunately, female characters in most manga either have breasts that are completely flat or ridiculously large.

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» pyonk on November 2nd, 2013, 9:30pm

I seriously hate female chara with oversize boobs. unrealistic and turn me off.
maybe because i'm flat-chested one.
the only exception is One Piece. Dunno why those big breast doesnt irritate me like other manga.

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» TundraDweller on November 4th, 2013, 1:58am

Quote from pyonk
I seriously hate female chara with oversize boobs. unrealistic and turn me off.
maybe because i'm flat-chested one.
the only exception is One Piece. Dunno why those big breast doesnt irritate me like other manga.


Probably cuz the character development for gals there doesn't begin and end with "boooooobs".

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» AliceinAmestris on November 2nd, 2013, 11:24pm

I would make a character with above average chest size because chances are I would be basing the character off of myself and I have above an average chest size. As far as chest size goes in manga I like it to be realistic for the most part. Overly large as well as overly small (on high school or adult characters) bugs me. If the plot is good I can for the most part ignore it.

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» banas002 on November 3rd, 2013, 4:07am

I like tiny breast cause it's often looks cute and even beautiful sometimes with slender girl, so I'll go with that. wink

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» drunkguy on November 3rd, 2013, 8:24am

I went with guy with manboobs. A love comedy parody involving such a thing would be awesome. Horror would work also... bigrazz

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» asmageddon on November 3rd, 2013, 9:25am

The only thing I can say is that I did not expect a poll so low on this site.

I am disappointed. :/

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» Nirhtuc on November 6th, 2013, 7:45am

I've read through all the comments here and I agree now. Congratulations to some of you for letting your chauvinistic pigs out. I DEMAND NUT SIZE NEXT, MR POLL DECIDER! mad

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» Kiyomori on November 3rd, 2013, 10:17am

Any female character I create will have all her physical features dictated by either the person she is created to resemble or to reflect her personality. Maternal ones will be above average. Athletic ones will be below average. The only time I would create a character with impossibly big ones is if she had megalomastia and I wanted to highlight the problems associated with such.

That being said, I do have a concept for a female character that's not maternal but has a large breast size. This is done for humor and, later on, dramatic reasons as the character has a mental condition in which she believes she is male, regardless of all the proof that says otherwise.

Given BU's previous polls, I don't believe anything is wrong with this one except the way it's worded. While is sounds as if breast size is a defining factor of female characters, I feel that would have just as easily asked about eye color, race, height or social preference.

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» kujika on November 3rd, 2013, 11:48am

If I ever create a manga I want people to concentrate on the plot and not the bust roll eyes

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» Strawberry Suicide on November 3rd, 2013, 11:57am

While I adore breasts, I'm not particularly fond of reducing them into tools of fanservice. Sometimes it's lovely to see some jiggling action but most of the time, I hate when breasts are highlighted. They are part of human anatomy and the male gaze and obsessive fascination really sucks every inch of beauty out of carrying them around, watching and drawing them embarrassed

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» ebisu on November 4th, 2013, 5:31am

Slightly above average is clearly the answer bigrazz biggrin

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» Alexyz0 on November 4th, 2013, 6:38am

Tru Dat laugh

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» blaznazn22 on November 4th, 2013, 6:42am

alot of people admitting their fat, well so am I. I guess 90% of manga readers are fat.

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» butako chan on November 8th, 2013, 10:41pm

Actually most of the manga readers I know (including me) are certainly not fat - thin in fact lol.

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» Unknown on November 4th, 2013, 6:43am

Post Deleted

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» Pikapu on November 4th, 2013, 7:51pm

Personally as a flat-chested female (or maybe I should give myself some credit... below average, but just right/proportional to my body/figure), I tend to draw only smaller/flat-chested females. So I voted flat-chested, lol.

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» RoxFlowz on November 5th, 2013, 4:09am

What's going on here? It's like I'm watching a talk show about feminism.
The poll does NOT imply:
a) that bust size is all that matters
b) that there's only one female character or that they're all the same
c) that all women are the same and can be reduced to their breasts.

ALL of that is simply your interpretation.

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» forgottenone666 on November 5th, 2013, 4:36am

Quote from RoxFlowz
What's going on here? It's like I'm watching a talk show about feminism.

This is self-righteous indignation by a few butthurt people thinking a simple poll has wounded all womankind. It's sexist to have an opinion on breast size apparently. roll eyes

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» KaoriNite on November 5th, 2013, 5:11am

We all have our opinions on what we find attractive about others, which is fine. but to sit around and talk about a woman's breast size like its the only thing that matters does seem sexist to me. is it the worst sexist thing? No. But it does objectify women.

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» forgottenone666 on November 5th, 2013, 5:36am

Quote from KaoriNite
but to sit around and talk about a woman's breast size like its the only thing that matters does seem sexist to me.


I don't think I saw anybody in the thread talking like that at all.

Seriously if the poll had been about hair color or strength nobody would be getting angry and saying it's objectifying people. To even insinuate this poll is objectifying anyone is asinine. I could understand if the poll had said "A woman is only worth something if her bust size is..." but it doesn't say that. It's about a preference when it comes to bust size. Just like people prefer different colors or foods. It doesn't mean the person thinks those other colors or foods have no worth.

I've seen polls before talking about character appearances and nobody batted an eye or talked about how much of an injustice it is. Making a poll out to be more than it is just to push an issue is the only sickening thing I see in this thread.

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» KaoriNite on November 5th, 2013, 5:07am

Quote from RoxFlowz
What's going on here? It's like I'm watching a talk show about feminism.
The poll does NOT imply:
a) that bust size is all that matters
b) that there's only one female character or that they're all the same
c) that all women are the same and can be reduced to their breasts.

ALL of that is simply your interpretation


If were going to talk about females why not get a female perspective?
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
also a bit off topic: why assume that it is a feminist point of view, why would watching a talk show about feminism be bad, and why should feminism be relegated to talk shows instead of real world conversations?

Anyways, I wasn't personally offended by the poll to the extent of other people, but I did get the implication that the most important thing about a female character is her bust size. I'm sure that there were others that saw it the same way too.

@Scyfon, even though these are fictional characters, they are representations of our real life opinions/views. Which is why some women are getting offended in this poll. I think we've all heard similar comments made in real life about the perfect size for a woman's breasts. And this poll is reminding some people of how offended they feel when they hear these comments made in the real world.

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» RoxFlowz on November 5th, 2013, 5:46am

Quote
also a bit off topic: why assume that it is a feminist point of view, why would watching a talk show about feminism be bad, and why should feminism be relegated to talk shows instead of real world conversations?

I wasn't assuming that it was a feminist point of view, I was simply making a comparison that was rather meant to be funny than serious. Anyway, you surely know what I mean.

I can understand people getting offended because they're being reminded about something they dislike, but there's no need for some people to overreact the way they did. In the end the poll is not saying that one size is better than another or asking what the "perfect" size is. It's simply asking for your personal concept of a female character in regard to her bust size (which is actually relevant in manga).

It's a poll, it's not meant to hurt anyone, so I hope people calm down a bit.

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» KaoriNite on November 5th, 2013, 6:33am

Quote from RoxFlowz
It's simply asking for your personal concept of a female character in regard to her bust size (which is actually relevant in manga).


I mentioned this in my first post, but I disagree with this point. I don't really think bust size is relevant in manga unless the manga is a hentai or ecchi one. Outside of these genres, its just another body part that has to be drawn, like the ears or hands. But we probably would never have a poll about hand size. The difference is we usually don't judge people based on the shape or size of their hands, but women are often judged by their breast size.

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» KaoriNite on November 5th, 2013, 6:40am

Quote from RoxFlowz
It's a poll, it's not meant to hurt anyone, so I hope people calm down a bit.


Also, I realize that the poll wasn't intended to hurt anyone. But if someone says something that people can take offensively, shouldn't we give them a heads up that some people will be offended? So that maybe next time they will choose their words more carefully if they don't want to offend anyone (or so that they at least know what they are walking into when they decide to go ahead and say something offensive)

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» RoxFlowz on November 5th, 2013, 7:27am

What I meant with "relevant" is that Japan is always exaggerating when it comes to the bust size. They're drawing them ridiculously large or small, unproportional or just unnatural when considering the age of the character. Bust size is actually a recurring topic in a lot of manga.
Mangaka don't draw hands or feet bigger than the character's head, but they do it with their breasts. So yeah, because of the way this is handled by the authors, it is relevant.

Once again, not talking about rl but about manga. (And with bust size being "relevant", I don't mean that the size matters but that the topic itself is relevant, reason above.)

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» cowsrawesome on November 5th, 2013, 9:00am

The fact that this poll may or may not have been deliberately malicious in intent is completely besides the point. People can be sexist asses and still not intend to be. INTENT NEVER MATTERS. It's still sexist bullshit. And the reason why people don't get upset about hair/clothing etc, is because those are gender neutral things that affect everyone. Breasts are usually specific to those who identify as female. Those claiming it's a relevant topic because of marketing strategy are basically saying that misogyny sells, so why should women be upset at being degraded if misogyny sells so well? Come on, manga authors have to make a living too right? Except why does objectification sell so well in the first place? When people say sex sells, 90% of the time we know they're not referring to men in Speedos. Just because misogyny is so ingrained into our culture that it sells well, doesn't mean we should encourage it.

Besides, I'm frankly amazed at how the people in this forum have repeatedly reduced a woman's personality down to how big or small her breast size is, and people are still talking like this isn't about reducing a woman down to her breast size. Athletic women can have large boobs. I used to play basketball with a lot women who had bigger boobs than most in the school. There were also flat chested women on the team, seriously all the shit about a woman's personality/background/whatever affecting her boob size is bs. Poor women can have big boobs, and they can even be fat too since it's hard to afford healthy food that's so expensive. I know it's hard for men to realize but we aren't one monolithic group with specific boobs granted to specific types of people. Innocent girls can have large boobs and sexual women can be flat-chested, seriously stop with the stereotyping bullshit. Boobs are generally genetic and have nothing to do with anything else.

How we're treated because of our chest size can affect our personality, but not to the extent that it controls our lifestyle, unless there's a character with a serious complex about it, in which case misogyny is usually the base cause anyway.

Just because misogyny is popular doesn't ever mean it should be encouraged. Seriously what the hell is that type of argument anyway?

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» sophie0 on November 6th, 2013, 11:22am

I wish I could "like" or "upvote" your comments. Couldn't agree more with what you're saying.

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» tactics on November 5th, 2013, 12:45pm

I personally took this poll from the point of view as a character designer. I thought that's what it was trying to get at. What sort of character designer would you be if you didn't take breasts into consideration when designing a female character? The poll isn't saying that breast size is the most important thing, it's just asking for your opinion on what you would do in that situation; If you were creating a female manga character and the next thing you had to do is decide her bust size.

People are allowed their opinions however. You can rant all you like, I don't really care. I'm not saying you're wrong. I just wanted to throw in, as another female point of view, how I interpreted the poll, and why I am, personally, not offended by it.

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» Nirhtuc on November 6th, 2013, 7:37am

Oh dear. 'Bust size'? I do hope to keep things equal though, next week's poll will have something to do with 'nut size'! smile wink grin Jokes aside, really moderator(s), what were you thinking? You had all these great manga-relevant AND non-degrading polls before, and now this? Most of the male population here would be disgusted if the poll question was 'You are creating a manga with a male character, so the size of his penis is...". Why this 1950s b.s.? Come on! sad

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» asmageddon on November 6th, 2013, 9:36am

I'm still not sure if I'd prefer a "nut size" or a "penis size" poll. I think the latter could be more fitting, but also potentially a bit too nsfw.

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» sophie0 on November 6th, 2013, 11:20am

Also it wouldn't really make things any better (and neither penis or nut size discussions are really the same as talking about women's breats is - most importantly, it's probaly more something men use to judge each other, and not something women use to evaluate the attractiveness of a guy). Idk, I read plenty of manga with fanservice for women, and the focus is rarely on the size of a guys' penis.

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» -shiratori- on November 6th, 2013, 11:49am

Wow, too many feminist extremists here. People like you are giving the whole movement a bad name with your aggressive and irrational behavior.

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» ms_nobody on November 6th, 2013, 12:07pm

eh, I'm getting tired of a character's bust size being considered an important trait. we've sexualized breasts to the point where feeding babies has to be done in private.

there should be an "it doesn't matter" option for those of us who don't care about ecchi

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» Scyfon on November 6th, 2013, 10:32pm

Quote from -shiratori-
Wow, too many feminist extremists here. People like you are giving the whole movement a bad name with your aggressive and irrational behavior.

Feminazis only see things their way roll eyes

Quote from ms_nobody
there should be an "it doesn't matter" option for those of us who don't care about ecchi

Sure, let's purposely design a character without a care in the world. Their physical features would vary from panel to panel. Tall? Short? Fat? Skinny? Hey, they can be whatever we want them to be at the whims of our mood.

Yeah, let's design a Ditto.
User Posted Image

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» KaoriNite on November 6th, 2013, 10:44pm

Quote from Scyfon
Feminazis only see things their way roll eyes

and I guess misogynists are different and are open to hearing other people's opinions? roll eyes

Quote from ms_nobody
there should be an "it doesn't matter" option for those of us who don't care about ecchi

Sure, let's purposely design a character without a care in the world. Their physical features would vary from panel to panel. Tall? Short? Fat? Ski ...[/quote]

just because you don't care about a particular feature doesn't mean it wouldn't get drawn at all or that it would change from panel to panel. For the majority of manga I read, breast size is irrelevant to the plot, and I don't spend my time staring at them.

Also, remember that this poll is "You are creating a manga". So whether or not breast size is important will depend on who you are, and what the manga is about.

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» Scyfon on November 6th, 2013, 11:15pm

Quote from KaoriNite

and I guess misogynists are different and are open to hearing other people's opinions? roll eyes

Are you implying that I am a misogynist? Do you even know what word means?
Quote
Quote
Quote from ms_nobody
there should be an "it doesn't matter" option for those of us who don't care about ecchi

Sure, let's purposely design a character without a care in the world. Their physical features would vary from panel to panel. Tall? Short? Fat? Ski ...


just because you don't care about a particular feature doesn't mean it wouldn't get drawn at all or that it would change from panel to panel. For the majority of manga I read, breast size is irrelevant to the plot, and I don't spend my time staring at them.

Also, remember that this poll is "You are creating a manga". So whether or not breast size is important will depend on who you are, and what the manga is about.


At the end of the day, regardless of what kind of genre your manga is gonna be, you're gonna have to decide on the physical characteristics of the character you're designing.

Quote from An amateur character designer
It's irrelevant to the plot


If the breast size isn't important, then it's safe to assume that you're creating a "plain" and "normal" character. Which means you're gonna go ahead and give her "average sized" breasts. You can say that. There's nothing wrong with it. You're not objectifying their gender - you're objectifying the character.

If I'm designing a male character with bulky and toned muscles, I'm not objectifying the male gender. I'm just designing a male with bulky and toned muscles.

THAT'S what the question is about. There's nothing sexist about it. Every character designer who actually gives a damn about what they're doing faces this kind of question. Sure, it may seem that way at first glance, but you have to look at the bigger picture. I'm not closed to hearing other people's opinions. I'm just trying to point out that those opinions are near-sighted and closed minded.

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» KaoriNite on November 7th, 2013, 12:14am

Quote from Scyfon
Quote from KaoriNite

and I guess misogynists are different and are open to hearing other people's opinions? roll eyes

Are you implying that I am a misogynist? Do you even know what word means?

literally: hatred of women. and i'm sure you were likely planning to inform me that as a heterosexual man (i'm making assumptions about your sexuality here, so correct me if your wrong) that you love women. But you know that this isn't what i meant by this comment. btw, this isn't the first thread in which i've thought you've come off as misogynistic.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote from ms_nobody
there should be an "it doesn't matter" option for those of us who don't care about ecchi

Sure, let's purposely design a character without a care in the world. Their physical features would vary from panel to panel. Tall? Short? Fat? Ski ...


just because you don't care about a particular feature doesn't mean it wouldn't get drawn at all or that it would change from panel to panel. For the majority of manga I read, breast size is irrelevant to the plot, and I don't spend my time staring at them.

Also, remember that this poll is "You are creating a manga". So whether or not breast size is important will depend on who you are, and what the manga is about.


At the end of the day, regardless of what kind of genre your manga is gonna be, you're gonna have to decide on the physical characteristics of the character you're designing
.

i realize that for the woman to be drawn anatomically correct, an artist is going to have to decide on how to draw that woman's breast just like they would for any other body part. but, as previously stated, this poll is specifically asking about breast size. we all know that society treats breasts differently than other body parts, so lets not pretend that this was just some innocent poll where breasts could've been substituted with head size or feet size.

Quote
Quote from An amateur character designer
It's irrelevant to the plot


If the breast size isn't important, then it's safe to assume that you're creating a "plain" and "normal" character. Which means you're gonna go ahead and give her "average sized" breasts. You can say that.


My first post in this thread said that if I were creating a manga, breast size would not be relevant to the plot so I would choose a realistic (aka average) size.
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
whoa, i think there's something we just agreed on


Quote
If I'm designing a male character with bulky and toned muscles, I'm not objectifying the male gender. I'm just designing a male with bulky and toned muscles.


Male bodies aren't objectified in the same way as female bodies. This is especially relevant if you are straight and would not be seeing this bulky, well-toned character in a sexual way.

Quote
There's nothing sexist about it.

I don't really agree. I think this poll was created by a straight guy, who seeing female characters in a sexual way, wanted to know what others thought about female characters breasts.

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» -shiratori- on November 7th, 2013, 5:10pm

Quote from KaoriNite
My first post in this thread said that if I were creating a manga, breast size would not be relevant to the plot so I would choose a realistic (aka average) size.


Are you saying that big and small breasts are not realistic? Wow, surely you must be a misogynist.

What you chose is in the end your own personal idea of the character's appearance and this is exactly why this poll is relevant.

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» 狂気 on November 7th, 2013, 11:24am

Quote from ms_nobody
there should be an "it doesn't matter" option for those of us who don't care about ecchi

Ecchi? The poll isn't sexist, you are. Bust size is important factor in character design. Stereotypes are important in manga, it's not prejudice. With appearance you bring out the personality. You can argue that breast size is irrelevant to personality, but it's the same for hairstyle, clothing and, really, appearance in general. That's stereotyping, it's generalisation and it's not always right but that's beside the point. And that is wrong by the way—appearance is not irrelevant to personality.

Quote from KaoriNite
I don't really agree. I think this poll was created by a straight guy, who seeing female characters in a sexual way, wanted to know what others thought about female characters breasts.

And here's another sexist. You think that based on what? There is absolutely nothing to indicate that except your own prejudices. You seem to think that only because you want to.

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» crazyboutcute on November 6th, 2013, 9:39pm

Ehhh kinda a lame, double-standard poll, and it hardly has anything to do with manga. no Can we get the male equivalent poll next time?

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» RoxFlowz on November 7th, 2013, 12:36am

Bust size and penis size are not the same for the simple reason that one is visible and therefore relevant for character design while the other is not (excluding hentai). I'm quite a bit shocked how many people here are overlapping manga with reality. No, your personality does not define your bust size, thanks for pointing that out cpt. obvious (can't be bothered to quote now), but if you haven't noticed yet, we're talking about manga and not about women in real life.

If you were a character designer, you might just give the look of your character a little thought. That those happy-go-lucky athletic characters often have a flat chest or that maternal characters often have larger ones is a widely used cliche. You may have noticed, if you haven't started reading manga yesterday.

If all of your female characters are not going to have a torso, that's fine with me, but be fair enough to chop off the lower body part of all male characters roll

(I admit that I found the poll distasteful at first, but I realized that from an artistic point of view, it is a legitimate question. I'm not saying anyone is wrong for feeling offended, but calling anyone voicing his opinion a "chauvinistic pig" without a second thought is just... right, offending)

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» KaoriNite on November 7th, 2013, 6:34am

Quote
I'm not saying anyone is wrong for feeling offended, but calling anyone voicing his opinion a "chauvinistic pig" without a second thought is just... right, offending)


Not sure if this is directed at me or not, but I didn't call just anyone a "chauvinistic pig" (well I didn't use this direct term at all in any of my posts). There were people on here making comments that the women who were offended by the poll were just oversensitive feminists. In my experience, people who use the "oh, well their just some crazy feminists" excuse to defend their position are the ones who hold sexist viewpoints (after all, feminism is about believing women should be treated equally to men, so if you are attacking this you probably believe that women shouldn't be treated equally).

Anyways, I guess it was wrong to expect much in the way of respect or understanding for why some women would be offended by this poll.

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» RoxFlowz on November 7th, 2013, 7:04am

It wasn't directed at you, since you're being rather calm about the whole thing. Someone else said it somewhere before (still can't be bothered to quote though).

I honestly believe it's simply a matter of perspective. Just as much as I'm interpreting this poll in a non-offensive way, others are seeing it the other way round. There's probably no right or wrong, we're simply convinced of our own point of view.

Anyway, I didn't mean to offend anyone here, I just didn't like the way some people were talking here (no, not directed at you wink )

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» cowsrawesome on November 7th, 2013, 6:55pm

Objectification of women is so common I suppose it must be a shock to see it called out, but the problem with this type of poll is also the "average" choice. What people mean by average is completely different from person to person and depends on our surroundings and how we've been socialized to view women and what the "average" woman looks like.

Unfortunately, extremely harmful images what the average woman looks like permeate, particularly american, culture. The "average" representation given us on TV has increasingly thin women with increasingly larger boobs with figures that aren't available to most women without resorting to plastic surgery and/or extreme dieting, which often leads to severe eating disorders. Women's lower sense of self-esteem often comes from comparing themselves to an impossible "average" standard that just can't exist for most of us.

And the objectification of women is mainly disregarding the personal and intellectual abilities and capabilities of women, and reducing a woman's worth or role in society to that of an instrument for the sexual pleasure that she can produce in the mind of another.

Though notable exceptions exist, historically women have been valued mainly for their PHYSICAL attributes.

Billions of dollars are invested in making women unhappy with their bodies so they'll buy more and more products to meet an "average" standard that is never meant to be reached.

The repeated objectification of women, makes our bodies something to be consumed and stared at by men, and polls like this are a part of how society polices women's bodies to fit into a male accepted "average."

Men literally see women as objects to be used, it has been scientifically proven that the part of their brain activated when viewing a sexualized image of a woman is the same part that activates when they're about to use a tool. The reverse is not true. Men CANNOT be objectified, even by women who see sexualized images of men. Those men are still seen as HUMAN.

Standards for men are power fantasies set up by other men, and are often achieved with a little extra time at the gym lifting weights to gain muscle mass.

Standards for women are also fantasies set up by men, and are achieved through surgery, starvation, make-up, fashion, skin-care products, hair-care products, and a little extra time at the gym slimming down, but not building up too much muscle lest we become too masculine.

Polls like this are unacceptable because, yes anime and manga women aren't real, but they do represent images of real, though often idealized, women. And this poll is basically encouraging men to control/validate/make commentary on women's bodies, even if they are fictional, in an objectifying manner.

Yes decisions like this have to be made when drawing women, but this poll has one woman representing all women. Hence "a female character," thus the voting ends up representing what all women "should" look like. What people, particularly men, prefer.

I'm not saying mostly men vote on this poll. I'm also not saying this poll is going to drastically change a young woman's mind and make her think she should adjust her breast size to placate people on this site that she's never seen. This is just one of many thousands of influences young women will be subjected to.

This poll is what is called a micro-aggression. Micro-aggressions based in misogyny are brief and commonplace daily verbal, behavioral, or environmental indignities, whether intentional or unintentional, that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative gendered slights and insults towards women.

So while it most certainly isn't the most horrible of all sexist sins, it is still something that shouldn't be encouraged and it is still something that is demeaning towards women.

Why some of us get so angry about micro-aggressions is because it's something that we deal with on a daily basis. This shit builds up over time and becomes intolerable after a while. I've lost patience and the ability or the desire to be kind to those who take part in and support shit like this. The legitimate anger and frustration that I feel at constantly being dehumanized has reached its limit.

I've been up for the past 48 hours so i'm not sure how much sense this makes, but damnit I'm tired and no longer care.

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» -shiratori- on November 7th, 2013, 8:49pm

Quote from cowsrawesome
Objectification of women is so common I suppose it must be a shock to see it called out, but the problem with this type of poll is also the "average" choice. What people mean by average is completely different from person to person and depends on our surroundings and how we've been socialized to view women and what the "average" woman looks like.


There is a scientific average breast size for adult humans which varies by ethnicity, look it up.

Quote from cowsrawesome
Men literally see women as objects to be used


Thank you for this insightful, differentiated and sophisticated opinion that is totally not generalizing at all.

Quote from cowsrawesome
Standards for women are also fantasies set up by men


Actually these standards are set up by other women. It's well known that most men don't care if women wear make up, fancy clothes or hairstyles. They do it to compare themselves to other females.

Quote from cowsrawesome
Yes decisions like this have to be made when drawing women, but this poll has one woman representing all women. Hence "a female character," thus the voting ends up representing what all women "should" look like. What people, particularly men, prefer.


No it does not. It's just your paranoia.


I don't see how your ramblings about sexism have anything to do with this poll at all. But I can honestly say every true feminist should be embarassed at the hateful shit you're writing in the name of feminism.

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» cowsrawesome on November 7th, 2013, 9:36pm

1. Socially perceived "average" and literal average are too very different things. The literal average size of every woman in america is size 14, but I don't see that represented in any media as the image we should strive for and I highly doubt a poll about what a woman's size should be with an "average" option would mean size 14 to many people either.

2. This is actually a scientific fact that men and women are socialized to see women as objects. There have been numerous psychological tests done to prove this shit. The brain literally functions differently when seeing images of sexualized men and women. Look it up on your own. You have access to google.

3. Internalized misogyny is a thing, but men are the ones who run the media in the majority that idealizes women in a certain way. This is really basic 101 shit.

4. This poll is objectifying even if people don't interpret it that specific way.

5. I've never once said I was a feminist. That was the label you used. I'm just a woman who doesn't like being objectified by random men, either on the streets or on the internet. If expressing an opinion on why I don't think women should be treated as objects makes me a feminist in your eyes, and feminism has a negative connotation, then that says much more about you than it does about me.

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» Scyfon on November 7th, 2013, 11:16pm

Quote from cowsrawesome
If expressing an opinion on why I don't think women should be treated as objects makes me a feminist

Honestly, there's nothing wrong with this, but what you're doing is saying that you see shit that isn't there in the first place. You've even said it yourself.
Quote
This poll is objectifying even if people don't interpret it that specific way.

So you're pretty much saying people who have no problem with this poll are assholes, just because they don't see things the way you do. Just because they're not reading so far in between the lines, that you start seeing things you think is there.

You've made decent, and valid points in you posts, yes - but they have, as much as you want them to be, nothing to do with this topic.

There isn't anything wrong with feminism. It's just when suddenly EVERYONE's the bad guy for not seeing the non-existent things that you see. If the term feminism brings any sort of negative connotation, then I'd say "arguments" like these is a major factor to it.

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» cowsrawesome on November 8th, 2013, 12:56am

I never said that people who have no problem with this poll are assholes. Stop putting words in my mouth. I think the guy who thought up this poll in the first place is an asshole (seriously, just check out the original proposal) and the person who decided it would be appropriate for this site is an asshole. I think the people using this poll as another excuse to reinforce stereotypes of women are assholes too, whether or not they're male or female. Anyone writing misogynistic bs is also probably on my shit list.

But, I don't care too much about those who honestly believe the poll is innocent in intent, though I do think they're being a bit deliberately obtuse, I don't mind too much.

Clearly other women have been made uncomfortable by this poll. I'm not the only one "reading so far in between the lines." Even if I were, with how we have been socialized, classifying women by boob size is objectifying no matter how you look at it.

Objectification reinforces a lot of other nasty behavior that I've personally encountered and don't like. Thus I wrote my piece.

You guys are the ones bringing "feminism" into it, again. I understand why, it's a term that you can easily use to write off any woman who does anything other than shutting up and smiling prettily as an "angry feminist" who clearly has nothing of import to say. It's a very easy cop out. But like I've pointed out before, nowhere do I ever mention being a feminist to begin with.

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» -shiratori- on November 8th, 2013, 5:19pm

Quote from cowsrawesome
1. Socially perceived "average" and literal average are too very different things. The literal average size of every woman in america is size 14, but I don't see that represented in any media as the image we should strive for and I highly doubt a poll about what a woman's size should be with an "average" option would mean size 14 to many people either.


It would have probably been better to put cup sizes as options, but that's only a minor issue.

Quote from cowsrawesome
2. This is actually a scientific fact that men and women are socialized to see women as objects. There have been numerous psychological tests done to prove this shit. The brain literally functions differently when seeing images of sexualized men and women. Look it up on your own. You have access to google.


Let's say this were true, how would men be at fault then? How can you condemn them for something the brain does automatically?

Quote from cowsrawesome
3. Internalized misogyny is a thing, but men are the ones who run the media in the majority that idealizes women in a certain way. This is really basic 101 shit.


The media displays what the people want to see, that is how they make money. And half of the viewership is female, so they show them what females want to see. The times when media only catered to male interests are long over.

Quote from cowsrawesome
4. This poll is objectifying even if people don't interpret it that specific way.


Again with the paranoia.

Quote from cowsrawesome
5. I've never once said I was a feminist. That was the label you used. I'm just a woman who doesn't like being objectified by random men, either on the streets or on the internet. If expressing an opinion on why I don't think women should be treated as objects makes me a feminist in your eyes, and feminism has a negative connotation, then that says much more about you than it does about me.


There is nothing wrong with feminism, there is just something wrong with hateful people such as you. My belief is that both genders should walk hand-in-hand towards the future. In a future where both genders are to be treated equal there is no place for grudges or hatred against the other gender. Mutual understanding is the key, not wild accusations and polemics.

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» 狂気 on November 8th, 2013, 12:58am

Quote from cowsrawesome
Though notable exceptions exist, historically women have been valued mainly for their PHYSICAL attributes.

Your "mainly" seems very biased. I'm not talking about exceptions either. In different periods and regions women have had different roles and values. Same for men. Of course there have been times when what you say is true.

Quote from cowsrawesome
Billions of dollars are invested in making women unhappy with their bodies so they'll buy more and more products to meet an "average" standard that is never meant to be reached.

That's just marketing. And what you're talking about is only products related to appearance. And it's in no way unique to women either.

Quote from cowsrawesome
The repeated objectification of women, makes our bodies something to be consumed and stared at by men, and polls like this are a part of how society polices women's bodies to fit into a male accepted "average."

Here's another very prejudiced view on what the male population thinks is average. I really doubt men think of popular actors and models in advertisement to be "average". All you say seem very biased and sexist.

Quote from cowsrawesome
Men literally see women as objects to be used, it has been scientifically proven that the part of their brain activated when viewing a sexualized image of a woman is the same part that activates when they're about to use a tool. The reverse is not true. Men CANNOT be objectified, even by women who see sexualized images of men. Those men are still seen as HUMAN.

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Scientifically proven? Those "scientific" tests are very doubtful to say the least. You can get any results you want on statistics, and everyone believes the ones they want. Saying "it's scientific fact" doesn't prove anything. It's a scientific fact that earth is flat.

Quote from cowsrawesome
Polls like this are unacceptable because, yes anime and manga women aren't real, but they do represent images of real, though often idealized, women. And this poll is basically encouraging men to control/validate/make commentary on women's bodies, even if they are fictional, in an objectifying manner.

The only ones who have so far given any indication of any sexism is you and a couple others with similar views. You make a problem where it doesn't exist for you own satisfaction—simply because you want to believe there is one.

Quote from cowsrawesome
Yes decisions like this have to be made when drawing women, but this poll has one woman representing all women. Hence "a female character," thus the voting ends up representing what all women "should" look like. What people, particularly men, prefer.

Another comment that is based on nothing but personal bias. You can make it sound however you like. As I've pointed out the original question went along the lines: "you're about to enter a manga as a female character".

Quote from cowsrawesome
I've never once said I was a feminist. That was the label you used. I'm just a woman who doesn't like being objectified by random men, either on the streets or on the internet. If expressing an opinion on why I don't think women should be treated as objects makes me a feminist in your eyes, and feminism has a negative connotation, then that says much more about you than it does about me.

She never said feminism has negative connotation, she said people like you give it one. And it's true. It's a scientific fact.

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» cowsrawesome on November 8th, 2013, 1:49am

sorry sweetie, but you legitimately believe in reverse sexism. there's not much I can ever do for you.

That's just a sad fact.

You can look all this shit up on your own if you like, but I doubt you will. Hell, even if you did, I'm not sure it'd do any good. Your "personal bias" based in literally nothing other than opinion is cute, but not conducive to intelligent conversation. I've studied this shit for years and have forgotten more than you will probably ever know about the subject, but better luck next time.

I'm basically just using this forum as an excuse to procrastinate on other things, so do feel free to try again sometime. Maybe one day when you have something of substance to say other than blind refutations I'll pay attention to you, but it is not this day.






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» Scyfon on November 8th, 2013, 1:58am

Quote from cowsrawesome
sorry sweetie, but you legitimately believe in reverse sexism. there's not much I can ever do for you.

That's just a sad fact.

WOW. Lady, you just lost all credibility. Take your so-called years of "studies" back to school and get it assessed because you've yet to get a passing grade.
Sexism is a two way street, and if you think otherwise, man you're damn delusional.

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» 狂気 on November 8th, 2013, 3:01am

You can "study" the subject all you want. That kind of "study" only serves to strengthen your bias. Anyone can look up anything to support their view while ignoring all contrary evidence.

If you can't make up anything credible yourself you pull out the sourceless scientific tests and imaginary studies on the subject? As I said, there are scientific studies that prove any viewpoint, but if you can't make arguments based on logic at least give us your sources. If you claim to be some sort of expert on the subject then show us evidence of your academic degrees.

In internet everyone seems to be expert of everything and know all the scientific facts. How are you different?

Scyfon is right. You lost all the little credibility you ever had with that post. When there's a situation where you can't counter other person's arguments the thing to do is to deny them and cling to your believes without any basis? It's easier to use personal attacks and try to discredit the other person?

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» cowsrawesome on November 8th, 2013, 12:16pm

believing in reverse sexism is akin to believing in reverse racism, heterophobia and the easter bunny. These things don't exist. Men can be negatively affected by misogyny, yes absolutely. But it's hatred of the feminine and women that is at the root of their problems. Women's reactionary anger towards oppression will not ever be the same as oppression until there's an established matriarchy and women own the majority of the government, wealth and power. When men fear to walk the streets at night because a woman might attack and sexually assault or rape them, and when men are routinely disenfranchised and have to fight twice as hard to get half as much recognition and still get paid less than their female counterparts, then ya'll can come at me with "reverse sexism."

Ya'll are dead set in your ways, so I'm not going to go on much more with this because it really will be a waste of my time, but if ya'll legitimately want sources and aren't just flapping your jaw, check out Audrey Lorde, Bell Hooks, and Patiricia Hill Collins, they'll give you all the resources and proofs that you need and are asking for. Bell Hooks' Feminism is for Everybody is a good place to start and can be found for free online as can a few of their other works. I also suggest reading Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish, and then reading Foucault and Feminism by Lois McNay. I am familiar with feminist theory and have learned much from them in my time even if I don't identify as one, there are still a lot of important things that feminist scholars focus on that others usually don't.

A psychological expert who focuses on gender theory is Anne Fausto Sterling, her work Sexing the Body: Gender Politics and the Structure of Sexuality would be a good place to start.

These are just jumping off points for you guys, but before you check out Foucualt, you'll probably need a working knowledge of post-structuralism.

A good site for you guys to visit would be derailingfordummies.com I'm not being cruel or condescending, this is a legitimate site that breaks down a lot of your objections and it's easy to understand and access.

Rayna Edwards also wrote an excellent book called, Responding to Gender-based Devaluation: The Relationship Between Microaggressions, Emotion, and Coping Strategies in Women and Gender Non-conforming Individuals.

If you guys are legitimately interested in sources to read and look at, here they are. Any social theorist worth their salt is aware of sexism, male privilege, and oppression. This is just the beginning, If you guys read all of these and want more, I have plenty more where that came from.

As for studying while ignoring all contrary evidence? I used to be exactly like you guys until I found all of the contrary evidence. So good luck.

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» AceBunneh on November 8th, 2013, 12:40pm

Just want to say something.. It's true, there's no such thing as reverse sexism or reverse racism. Racism is not specific to any race and sexism isn't specific to a certain gender.
Sexism isn't discrimination against women by men or anything, it's not objectifying women by men, it's just discrimination against a sex generally not your own.

I guess you can technically consider treating someone better because of their gender or race as reverse racism and reverse sexism, but I believe there's already a term for those things, which currently escapes me.

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» 狂気 on November 9th, 2013, 5:16am

There's no indication of sexism on this poll. You're the sexist is what I said. Because you connote comments of breasts and whatever else in this topic with sexual meanings that doesn't exist before you create them.

You're misunderstanding something else too. No one wants your list of books that support your biased views. The point was your scientific facts are pseudo-scientific and no facts at all and even to them you're unable to provide proper source.

You seem to be trying to make a point that sexism exists. No one claimed it doesn't. The point was that there's none here except on part of those who perceive it in such way and bring it out—i.e. you.

You never disproved my points either. Example: "That's just marketing. And what you're talking about is only products related to appearance. And it's in no way unique to women either." Where I didn't say you're wrong but only pointed out that what you're doing is akin to white propaganda.

All of your even slightly logical arguments mean nothing when you tell absolutely without any basis what kind of person and with what intentions that person suggested this poll did it other than your misandrist prejudices.

And I'm not going to give any more arguments in counter to lists of books, arguments of a different subject or discredit attempts. That means, basically, to anything you seem to be capable of coming up any more.

Quote from -shiratori-
On another note, I am disappointed with the low turnout for tiny and flat-chested. Pettankos need more love.

What I said:
Quote from 狂気
貧乳はステータ スだ!希少価値 だ!

How'd that translate? "Tiny chest is status symbol! Rare value item!" If you allow me to be a bit liberal. Well, those who know what I'm talking about know what I'm talking about. I'm just quoting Konata, really. I know I'd hate having huge breasts.

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» kujika on November 8th, 2013, 2:41pm

I'm sorry, but I'm sure this poll is intended as an artistic question same as "do you prefer to draw squirrels with stripes or without?" and not to insult or for prejudice roll eyes

If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

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» Pikapu on November 8th, 2013, 3:19pm

Quote from Textualpoacher
YES! Where's the "Who cares" option?


Er. Not caring... basically means... you shouldn't even feel the need to vote... Or look at the poll... You can ignore the poll! That's what it means to not care...? So why would you need an option for not caring... confused


Also.

Holy pooper scoopers!

This poll has stirred up much of the MU community! Why can't we just all enjoy b00bs and move along... So much text... I want to read it all... But... words everywhere!

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» forgottenone666 on November 8th, 2013, 5:49pm

Quote from Pikapu
So much text... I want to read it all... But... words everywhere!

Don't waste your time. A good chunk of it are the delusional ramblings of a certain member who shall not be named. roll

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» butako chan on November 8th, 2013, 11:24pm

Quote
Quote
So much text... I want to read it all... But... words everywhere!


Don't waste your time. A good chunk of it are the delusional ramblings of a certain member who shall not be named. roll


Haha, we all know who it is. I agree, quite delusional. Just reading it caused me to lose some faith in humanity lol. Just trying to look for a good comment not arguing about this poll was hard....

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» Juuza on November 8th, 2013, 4:03pm

Voted average though prefer my original female manga characters bust sizes to range from realistically big to tastefully below average.

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» -shiratori- on November 8th, 2013, 11:37pm

On another note, I am disappointed with the low turnout for tiny and flat-chested. Pettankos need more love.

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