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Manga Poll
After finishing a series that you like, you most hope to find
Anime of it
Sequel or spin-off
Another series by the same author
Merchandise for sale
Fan fiction
Fan art
A community to discuss the series with
I don't finish series
I have no hope for anything
 
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News Article
New Poll - Most Read Demographic
This week's poll is from our member Eternal_rain. We're not asking what your favorite demographic is. Instead, which is your most read one? It's a slightly different question, although you may have the same answer for both.

You can submit poll ideas here (and try to keep them manga/anime-related)
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903

Previous Poll Results:
Question: Do you spend more time on anime or manga?
Choices:
I do both, but more anime - votes: 1993 (15.3%)
I do both, but more manga - votes: 7518 (57.7%)
About the same amount of time for both - votes: 1812 (13.9%)
I don't watch anime at all - votes: 1619 (12.4%)
I don't read manga at all - votes: 85 (0.7%)
There were 13027 total votes.
The poll ended: April 19th 2014

Well, we are MANGAupdates for a reason
Posted by lambchopsil on April 19th 7:06am Comments ( 93 )  [ View ]  [ Add ]
Comments

» Knightzomegaz on April 19th, 2014, 12:15am

Going for the Shounen option..

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» destroyer_ck on April 19th, 2014, 12:16am

seinen
everything is there.

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» SilverStorm on April 19th, 2014, 2:16am

Wavered between shoujo and yaoi for a bit before shoujo won by sheer number.

I'm happy to see more dedicated fujoshi/fudanshi showing their stripes.

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» philip72 on April 26th, 2014, 9:44pm

A good bit more for yaoi than hentai, lolicon, yuri and shoujo-ai combined. Guess we know which sex consumes the most porn.

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» 狂気 on April 19th, 2014, 2:33am

Shoujo or seinen manga, I guess.

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» Lorska on April 19th, 2014, 2:55am

A while ago it would have been shoujo but the best things are seinen imo so now it leans more towards that... Less cliches, more diverse plots and not that childish

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» tactics on April 19th, 2014, 3:05am

Probably going to have to go with Shounen, but I have been reading an alarming amount of yuri recently, and I don't plan on stopping anytime soon xD

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» forgottenone666 on April 19th, 2014, 3:16am

Can't say I'm sure of what I read the most of since I read so much but seinen and yuri have to be at the top somewhere.

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» Sogno on April 19th, 2014, 5:24am

i hate to admit it, but it's shoujo T_T

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» unya on April 19th, 2014, 5:42am

Lolicon seinen. Too bad people keep mistagging stuffs hard.

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» Damnedman on April 19th, 2014, 6:05am

Shounen apparently. I do read mostly Seinen nowadays, but it's not enough to surpass how much shounen I read in the past.

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» connerity on April 19th, 2014, 6:28am

If SeriesA + SeriesB = 2
and
DoujinA + DoujinB = 2
then
Hentai
else
Seinen
end

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» Sorcha on April 19th, 2014, 6:55am

I don't know, never really pay attention to it before. I tend to pick up more yaoi lately, but I only start actively reading it for a year or so. According to my reading list, my most read demographic are shoujo and shounen, while in my complete list its shoujo and yaoi. Maybe becau shoujo & yaoi tend to have short volume

Kinda surprised by how little the number of title listed under josei in my reading& complete list is.

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» Nyajinsky on April 19th, 2014, 7:06am

I voted for shoujo, but I read all shounen, seinen and shoujo a lot. josei a little bit less, and then yaoi and shounen-ai (those I have a lot on my list, but that's only because it tends to be 1 volume long). so shoujo it is.

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» Cthylla on April 19th, 2014, 8:33am

Mostly shojou ai now.

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» reanmeih on April 19th, 2014, 9:09am

Shoujo. Yup, shoujo. Josei and Seinen are automatically eliminated for their small numbers. As for shounen... I read them, but as shallow as shoujo mangas are in general, shounen is worse. Conclusion is so long as I keep away from school life romance shoujos, I can avoid about 80% of the the nonsense.

It's strange though. I don't even like romance stories, but they are way up there on my top three genres list. Well, I suppose that's probably to blame that romance isn't one of the genres I exclude when searching.

I read almost anything though, exception to hentai, and perhaps lolicon shotacon yaoi. Don't particularly read yuri either, since they are so BORING.

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» SilverStorm on April 19th, 2014, 9:36am

Quote from reanmeih
Don't particularly read yuri either, since they are so BORING.


Lol, I always wondered if I was the only one who thought that.

Girl/girl pairings aren't really my thing to begin with, but everytime I try yuri (the tasteful kind), it's so slooow-paced with lots of characters just staring at each other or talking about really boring things.

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» Baniita on April 19th, 2014, 2:31pm

The problem is the lack of good authors for GL. Girl Friends remains really the only GL I actually really like. Morinaga Milk is a goddess (god? idk). Though I have been noticing more GL with actual subtance though; yay! Collectors and Octave!
And girl-girl relationships depicted in manga are often really pure, and the love between them is often pure, too. Which can make it less interesting, especially to people like me who prefer darker, more complex dynamics.

And any of the stuff with the "onee-san" crap and the all-girls academies can go straight out the window. Most of the GL written by guys have no substance.

Off-topic, but... The problem with straight guys is that they read yuri for fetishization purposes. But then they naturally assume the same of all BL-loving fujoshi, and it's exasperating. Most straight guys read yuri to get off. Many straight and lesbian/bi/etc girls have a deeper appreciation for BL and slash--we appreciate it emotionally, not sexually (or at least not exclusively). The most we do a lot of the times is just scream, keysmash, or flail around a lot while running into things, or cry.

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» Cthylla on April 19th, 2014, 7:06pm

Quote from Baniita
The problem is the lack of good authors for GL. Girl Friends remains really the only GL I actually really like. Morinaga Milk is a goddess (god? idk). Though I have been noticing more GL with actual subtance though; yay! Collectors and Octave!
And girl-girl relationships depicted in manga are often r ...


Yeah exactly, I only read it because it's pure and sweet and there's no men laugh

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» KaoriNite on April 19th, 2014, 9:34pm

Quote from SilverStorm
Lol, I always wondered if I was the only one who thought that.

Girl/girl pairings aren't really my thing to begin with, but everytime I try yuri (the tasteful kind), it's so slooow-paced with lots of characters just staring at each other or talking about really boring things.


Totally agree with you guys. And have to disagree with @Baniita, I thought Girl Friends was a prime example of the slow-paced and boring yuris.

Anywho, I voted yaoi. The poll is pretty much what I expected, although I didn't think Seinen would be rated so high. I think its a great genre, but I thought Shoujo would be a lot more popular.

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» hahhah42 on April 20th, 2014, 12:43am

Quote from KaoriNite
Anywho, I voted yaoi. The poll is pretty much what I expected, although I didn't think Seinen would be rated so high. I think its a great genre, but I thought Shoujo would be a lot more popular.

Well, if you'll recall the results from the age poll a few weeks back, over half of the MU members seem to be age 22 and older. So it isn't altogether surprising that the older demographics receive a notable measure of support.

As to why seinen is so much more popular than josei, presumably the driving factor is that there are roughly four times as many seinen series with English releases than josei... Or perhaps the yaoi contingent is siphoning more votes (and scanlator attention) from josei series than from shoujo?

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» evilcleo on April 19th, 2014, 10:00pm

No matter what you do, romantic options show up in manga's that aren't tagged romance. I love Karneval and the relationships are not even close to romance, but somehow readers still obsess about potential love interests be it BL or hetero. Makes you ask the question: "can you appreciate a manga without adding love into it?"

I like some shounen but it's not very good at getting straight to the point. I liked samurai deeper kyo but seriously, it took like 200 chapters in order to introduce the main villain,another 60 for him to become a main character, 30 for the actual battle to start, and 10 for him to actually die. They were pretty short chapters but still, there's a difference between buildup and filler material.

I think I've read one good yuri. The storyline had plenty of plot holes but there was a storyline and the character/relationship development was well done. Strawberry panic had its moments but that's more shoujo ai anyway.

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» quark1020 on April 19th, 2014, 9:34am

I THINK I read mostly shounen. I don't really pay attention to the genre when I read, mainly just grabbing whatever I find interesting at the time. Only reason I assume its shounen is because it doesn't easily fit any of the other options bigrazz .


I really shouldn't be surprised, but here I am all the same: That's a lot of yaoi votes XD.

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» xxmichellexx27f on April 19th, 2014, 9:48am

Confused, between shounen and shoujo. I'm so addicted to shounen at times, but I have to admit the number of shoujo I've read is like 10x than the shounen I've read, tough most of the shoujo are under the excuse 'i don't mind to read it', but still. You know what I meant fellow girls .-.

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» emilyslash on April 19th, 2014, 11:16am

I read yaoi the most.

Shotacon and lolicon don't seem to fit since it's a single choice poll. I didn't think it was a demographic either. It's often included with one of the others such as hentai.

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» Baniita on April 19th, 2014, 2:27pm

I wanted to vote "BL", but it wasn't an option. :T (And no, yaoi and BL are NOT synonymous. So I went with shounen-ai, even though that term is incorrect and outdated.
Hahaha wow--the numbers for yaoi are impressive, though.

I read every demographic listed there except lolicon, though. I don't read hentai as much as I used to.

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» 狂気 on April 21st, 2014, 9:35am

Quote from Baniita
I wanted to vote "BL", but it wasn't an option. :T (And no, yaoi and BL are NOT synonymous. So I went with shounen-ai, even though that term is incorrect and outdated.
Hahaha wow--the numbers for yaoi are impressive, though.

This poll is based on the demographics that are represented on this site's genre list. If you're uncertain to which category your "BL" belongs to you can see which the works you have in mind are included in.

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» -shiratori- on April 19th, 2014, 5:46pm

Seinen. The non-bloody and non-ecchi kind. 2nd is shounen, then shoujo. Hentai only for fapping, as for the rest, not interested.

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» tsuto on April 19th, 2014, 6:04pm

I have no idea. Since I used to read pretty much everything (excluding some few demographics) I think it should be a close fight between shoujo and shounen. I still voted seinen though laugh

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» cmertb on April 19th, 2014, 8:27pm

Only four of the options are actually demographics (age + gender). The rest are fetishes that can fall under various demographics, with hentai standing outside and puzzled, since it can also contain any of those fetishes. Confused choices, messy poll, invalid result.

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» Cthylla on April 19th, 2014, 8:58pm

Quote from cmertb
Only four of the options are actually demographics (age + gender). The rest are fetishes that can fall under various demographics, with hentai standing outside and puzzled, since it can also contain any of those fetishes. Confused choices, messy poll, invalid result.


Pretend they correctly labeled it as genre.

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» cmertb on April 20th, 2014, 7:42am

Quote from Cthylla
Pretend they correctly labeled it as genre.

Then five of the choices are not genres. It's wrong either way.

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» crazyboutcute on April 20th, 2014, 3:09pm

How about "categories"? bigrazz I think the question of the poll is pretty clear and it's just an issue of being pedantic here... laugh

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» cmertb on April 20th, 2014, 6:34pm

Q: What kind of food do you eat most often?
1) Salty
2) Sweet
3) Italian
4) Green
5) Red
6) Meat
7) Processed
8) Low fat

I think the question of this poll is pretty clear, and if you don't think so, you're just being pedantic.

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» Cthylla on April 20th, 2014, 7:21pm

Quote from cmertb
Then five of the choices are not genres. It's wrong either way.


Not true. Just as "young-adult" can be a genre for novels, shonen can be considered a genre for manga. Same for the others although it's a bit of a stretch.

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» cmertb on April 20th, 2014, 7:40pm

Even if you rape the dictionary definition of the term and claim that a demographic (i.e. target audience) is a genre, it still doesn't change the fact that this poll presents overlapping options as mutually exclusive. I think my post above contains a perfect analogy to demonstrate the silliness in this poll. Of course, if the poll I made up seems reasonable to you, then... well... I'm sorry.

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» mizaki2100 on April 19th, 2014, 8:42pm

Shoujo because of huge amount of oneshots I've read.

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» voraciouszest on April 20th, 2014, 2:41am

No one's admitting it but we're a strong demographic, so here I go - I love yaoi. Shounen ai too, but mostly yaoi. I also like some seinen and josei, and a rare few shounen and shoujo but it's yaoi that tops the list.

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» 801crazed on April 20th, 2014, 10:36am

Technically, there are only 4 demographics on the list: shounen, shoujo, seinen, and josei.

The rest of them aren't demographics but "themes".

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» crazyboutcute on April 20th, 2014, 3:05pm

Oh, I don't know... I guess I mostly read shounen and shoujo... Although, lately I've been reading a lot of josei, and while I'm not as well-read in the seinen demographic, I have a couple of long-running series that I regularly keep up with. I also read a lot of yaoi when I'm in the mood for smut, but since so much of it is absolute garbage that I just skim over, I wouldn't call it "reading" so much as "looking at the sexy pictures." bigrazz

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» pandasamurai on April 20th, 2014, 6:12pm

There's no other genre I enjoy as much as stories with some rather cute or attentively serious Shoujo Ai. It's just my thing, I don't like reading the same story over and over again like a lot of the Shoujo and Shounen populating the Mangaverse. But there are always a few exceptions that have some intense complexity to their storytelling or just make some lolz fall like a man just kneed in the Dragon Ball Z that I absolutely have to read. I just have found that I get addicted to Shoujo Ai and Yuri a lot more than the other genres. I don't read Shounen Ai, Hentai, Lolicon, Shotacon, or Yaoi, so I've got no opinion to share there. I just wish I could learn Japanese faster so I can start scanlating a lot of series that others have dropped.

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» Lorska on April 21st, 2014, 12:54am

to end this stupid, discussion:
on THIS site, I repeat. on THIS site those are mutually exclusive, as least they should be when choosing genres, there are like 10 manga if you pick shoujo+yaoi because that wasn't edited correctly (we even had some shounen+shoujo ones).

if you edit a genre you get this:
Demographic (Please pick one only)
Josei Lolicon
Seinen Shotacon
Shoujo Shoujo Ai
Shounen Shounen Ai
Yaoi Yuri

Genre
...

@cmertb:
your poll does have nothing to do with this, I guess if you find a site where those choices are mutually exclusive you have a point, but I don't think so (though if you create such a site feel free to make that poll)

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» Assidus on April 21st, 2014, 3:04am

Quote from Lorska
to end this stupid, discussion:
on THIS site, I repeat. on THIS site those are mutually exclusive, as least they should be when choosing genres, there are like 10 manga if you pick shoujo+yaoi because that wasn't edited correctly (we even had some shounen+shoujo ones).
.

There still are annoyingly many manga that have at least two of those "mutually exclusive" tags though (which absolutely would make sense if they weren't supposed to be mutually exclusive...).

And I can totally understand how it's frustrating to see these terms randomly thrown together and often used wrongly, regardless of that being the standard on this site or not.

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» cmertb on April 21st, 2014, 5:30am

So you're saying it's not the author of the poll, it's this site's classification that's being stupid. How is that better?

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» Scyfon on April 21st, 2014, 6:03am

I swear every time I bother to check the weekly poll thread, there's always that guy/group complaining about what a crap poll it is.

Good. Freakin. God.

You don't have to like the poll - and guess what? You don't have to vote either!

You always have to expect that there's gonna be some grammatical/spelling/language error. From what I gather, Lamb usually just copy pastes what he picks from the suggestion thread - suggestions given by the forumites (majority of which, don't have English as their first language). Even though the question and the choices given don't exactly match up, you sorta get what it's trying to get at.
Just fucking chill, don't take it too seriously, and vote if you really feel like it... or if you think that your opinion matters.


My vote would have gone to shounen, but I realized that it isn't the genre I "read the most" as of late. Reason would be because I don't read as many ongoing series as I used to, and that the ones I do read have inconsistent releases...


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» Assidus on April 21st, 2014, 6:40am

At least for me it's more of a basic problem, not only with this poll. Never mind the way Shoujo AI and Shounen AI are used, since that seems to have become normal in English.

The four demographics are fine too, but I don't get why they and the rest are supposed to be mutually exclusive. Like, hentai is not supposed to be lolicon, or shotacon, or yaoi, or yuri.
"Shoujo Ai" is not supposed to be shoujo, seinen, yosei, etc.
Just doesn't make sense to me why it is supposed to be that way.

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» Lorska on April 21st, 2014, 7:13am

@Assidus:
annoyingly many? (I skipped the combinations that don't exist and didn't bother with hentai, that would be the only exception imo)

joseixseinen = 7 joseixshoujo = 21 joseixshoujoai = 27 joseixshounen = 1 joseixshounenai =29 joseixyaoi = 16 joseixyuri =20
seinenxloli = 24 lolixshota ~130 (almost all hentai and dj) lolixshoujo = 3 lolixshoujoai = 1 lolixshounen = 5 lolixyaoi = 2 lolixyuri ~ 130 (again almost all hentai and dj)
seinenxshota = 6 seinenxshoujo = 6 seinenxshoujoai ~ 90 seinenxshounen 18 seinenxshounenai = 30 seinenxyaoi = 11 seinenxyuri ~75
shotaxshoujo = 1 shotaxshoujoai = 1 shotaxshounen = 3 shotaxshounenai = 38 shotaxyaoi ~725 shotaxyuri = 12
shoujoxshoujoai = 45 shoujoxshounen = 20 shoujoxshounenai ~270 shoujoxyaoi = 21 shoujoxyuri = 7
shoujoaixshounen = 42 shoujoaixshounenai = 15 shoujoaixyaoi = 1 shoujoaixyuri ~ 100 (almost all dj)
shounenxshounenai = 9 shounenxyaoi = 1 shounenxyuri = 21
shounenaixyaoi ~350 shounenaixyuri = 2
yaoixyuri = 8

unless you read only hentai and yaoi I don't see those annoying numbers...

btw while searching I got the impression that:
1) most of those combination are somewhat older (2005-)
2) there seem to be difficulties to differentiate between yaoi, shota and shounen ai, it looks like the "demographic" was just added even when there are no scanned chapters at all
3) there is an annoying number of dj's with those problems

it still is standard on this page (apart from hentai), so it makes sense to ask a corresponding question/make a corresponding poll.

@cmertb:
the poll was made according the the sites standards, so if there is a problem with that, start a topic in bugs&suggestions and get shot down by a mod, because that's what happened the last time I believe - unless they change their mind, this won't be changed.

@Assidus:
Afaik these demographics are chosen according to the magazine a manga is published in.
-> shoujo, seinen, josei, shounen magazines in itself make sense.
I don't think hentais will be published in WSJ so I guess they get their own magazines, and same with yaoi, etc, because from a publishers point of view it wouldn't make any sense to cross-publish different of those demographics. But I don't live there, so dunno how that is handled, but it makes sense this way...

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» Assidus on April 21st, 2014, 8:37am

Quote from Lorska
@Assidus:
annoyingly many? (I skipped the combinations that don't exist and didn't bother with hentai, that would be the only exception imo)

I remembered a few and found some more when I opened some random series from the recent releases. Might just be selective perception on my part, but considering that they are supposed to be mutually exclusive that is a lot imo, yes.

But again, the thing that I don't get is not that there are doubles, but that there aren't supposed to be any (apart from the first 4).

Quote from Lorska
@Assidus:
Afaik these demographics are chosen according to the magazine a manga is published in.
-> shoujo, seinen, josei, shounen magazines in itself make sense.

That's my opinion too, I just think that the other options are a whole different category, and that one manga/doujin should be able to fit in one of those options plus one or more of the others.

I'm sorry for having helped in derailing this thread like that, it's just something that has bugged me before now and then, and this brought my attention back to it.
Would there be any point in starting a seperate topic on this, or has this already been discussed enough on this forum, and the current way is generally agreed upon?

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» cmertb on April 21st, 2014, 11:53am

My concern on this topic only goes as far as to point out that the results of this poll don't reflect any useful reality. Job done, I believe.

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» ebisu on April 21st, 2014, 9:26am

"Read the most" would be shounen, because shounen has more releases more often. It's inevitable. biggrin

And there's the fact that I enjoy seinen shounen and action a lot. cool

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» creamcoloredflower on April 22nd, 2014, 4:12pm

I was just curious about people picking "Yaoi". Would like to know more about this. Assuming most voted seriously, then it's certainly interesting. When you choose to read yaoi, what goes about in your mind? What's the purpose of picking these? Is it for "fapping"? Sexually appealing/arousing, but no "fapping"? Does it make a topic to discuss? Is it because they are just entertaining plotwise? All of these? None of these? Elaborate eyes

If you reply to this, it would be great if you stated what you voted for. Any guesses or conclusions are welcome, but make this clear. I want to be able to differ from someone who picked it and someone who didn't. Thanks confused

voted: seinen biggrin Usually more interesting to me. Doesn't matter if it's about death, sex, aliens, war, solitude, mental illness, future, super natural, or anything. It can all be interesting to read about "mature" stuff or someone's take on it, with a good plot eek

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» Unknown on April 22nd, 2014, 4:14pm

Post Deleted

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» 狂気 on April 23rd, 2014, 4:10am

I think it's fairly obvious that the fujoshi rate on this site is notable. Just looking at the activity on the yaoi/yuri section and the relatively high number of yaoi threads makes it clear.

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» voraciouszest on April 23rd, 2014, 4:12am

I voted for yaoi and it's what I read the most for a few reasons -

1. The men are all attractive, unless they're a side character or a niche character, in which case their personality is attractive in some way. Also, yaoi is not all about the sex. There's a lot of story and characters in this genre too. But there is a lot of sex, which I admit I prefer than the non-sex, but it's not for fapping. It's just for the general perv factor; at least on my part. I've also noticed that yaoi tends to be far less explicit than hentai which is a genre purely for fappage.
2. The vast majority of yaoi series do not exceed one to three volumes, which I really appreciate. I hate nothing more than a thin storyline stretched over multiple volumes (I'm looking at you, shoujo and shounen!). If I'm going to be reading something just for the enjoyment of a perv or something centered around romance, I don't want to be doing it for multiple volumes unless there's some really good plot points going on beside it or the series is genuinely enjoyable.

The other reasons I read yaoi mostly have to do with why I won't read other genres, e.g. too much angst, hideously annoying female characters, ugly artwork, objectionable characters, etc. Apart from yaoi I love sport series. Yup. Shounen and Seinen sport series are my other secret manga love.

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» creamcoloredflower on April 23rd, 2014, 5:15am

Thank you for your honesty eyes Hope more people will join in with their share of thoughts.

Haven't read/seen that much yaoi myself. The ones I have seen/read have either been very graphical, or just a lot of teasing which leaves more for the imagination (seems more appealing to me). But then again, it doesn't excite me personally. Sometimes, the dialogues/ideas/plot can be interesting, but it's not the best place for me to find them I believe. I've usually dropped these series after perhaps 10-20 chapters.
Can't say for sure, however, it seems to me that there are hardly any discrimination in these mangas and more so about the actual relationships/casual romances/personalities, instead of hardships/consequences of actual life confused so maybe there is a sense of escapism to them too with no strings attached confused

"The men are all attractive... their personality is attractive" < probably the most decisive factor seeing as most men are idealised in such genres and made to be "perfect" together. Especially if you're going to see them having sex. The art is pretty good. There's a sense of androgyne traits to it too. Yaoi may be very complicated as a topic laugh
What's interesting too.. is.. well.. there is an abscence of women in the relationship. It's not like they are that manly either though. Well, let's say you have a shoujo manga. Then there's a girl. Maybe you can relate to her problems, feel empathy and other stuff together with her (I don't know, but you may get my point). Is there such a thing with yaoi too?

"it's not for fapping" < I see eek It may depend on the reader though, and if the plot is too interesting which forces you to keep on reading eyes Guess it depends on initial intentions before picking a read.

"Shounen and Seinen sport series are my other secret manga love." < it's not secret anymore - the internet knows now no laugh once agian, thank you for sharing eyes

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» KaoriNite on April 23rd, 2014, 5:26am

I voted yaoi too. But if you want to learn more about why people read yaoi it would be better to ask these questions in the Yaoi/Yuri forum. Actually there are probably already some posts about this topic, so you can just search for past entries.

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» creamcoloredflower on April 24th, 2014, 7:47am

Thank you for your tip eyes I've read countless of ideas/thoughts on here from different topics. Some of which were very interesting and mature.
Anyhow, many elements in yaoi seem very shallow/superficial/unreal and even morally questionable, no? no I believe ones initial intentions and expectations play a big role to oversee these things.
Well, it is fantasy after all and this is not an attempt to insult anyone's likings. All manga is some sort of escapism so I guess it is alright if it's innocent fun mad Bothers me a bit that some people that read yaoi are not as open minded as they "should" be though, and may come off as ignorant/insultive because of lack of knowledge and undelicate assumptions dead Maybe I'm alone in thinking so no but maybe that's a maturity thing. I know it is individual smile

With my mindset, unfortunately, it seems like I doomed to only like certain seinen cry sometimes shoujo, sometimes shounen, sometimes story-oriented or such that are heavy on "foreplay/teasing" hentai :-)

I do have some questions though, but I'll keep to myself. Sometimes it's better not to know no Good luck everyone! And thanks smile

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» 狂気 on April 24th, 2014, 8:56am

I have no idea what you're trying to say. What do you mean morally questionable? The actions are morally questionable? Or are you referring to the storytelling? If former, what do you expect of a good story, flowers and butterflies and children running in the meadows? Perhaps you should switch to another genre. If the latter, then could you elaborate?

What do you mean it's fantasy? It's fantasy as a genre? It's not. Unless it happens to be that too. Or do you mean it as sexual fantasy or a not-strictly-sexual fetish? If this, then why are you driving at?

What's with the emoticons? E.g. the angry face after "it is alright if it's innocent fun". Did you just put them there randomly? They're awfully distracting.

Could you specify why you think manga is always escapism? I don't agree with you one bit. And it's not all right if it's not "innocent" fun? Define innocent. And why the hell isn't it all right even if it's not innocent?

What exactly are you referring to with this statement:
Quote from creamcoloredflower
some people that read yaoi are not as open minded as they "should" be though, and may come off as ignorant/insultive because of lack of knowledge and undelicate assumptions

Open-minded in what way? Give an example of being ignorant/insultive. What exactly did those "some people" say or do to make you think this? Lack of knowledge about what? Delicate assumptions are better?

What exactly is your "mindset" that includes such broad and vague category of interest?

I find your post to be one of the most vague (and at least on surface, meaningless) I have ever read on this forum. But I'm willing to change my mind if you come up with anything concrete.

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» kujika on April 24th, 2014, 4:29am

It was a difficult choice, I read tons of shoujo, josei and shounen. Shounen, simply cause I enjoyed those works I read the most.

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» butako chan on April 24th, 2014, 7:00am

Although I'm a girl, I read seinen the most. I don't mind the sex/nudity and mature themes. Deepers problems are usually addressed with more maturity in seinen works, which is why I read this genre the most.

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» -shiratori- on April 24th, 2014, 9:22am

The fujoshis here are always making me facepalm. Really the most disgusting fandom on the net. Male yuri fanboys can be annoying too, but they're nowhere as depraved and much easier to avoid (just look at this poll).

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» SilverStorm on April 24th, 2014, 2:36pm

Hey, no need to be insulting. I don't like ecchi and boob/panty shots (and trust me, this appears in about 70% of shonen stuff I've read/seen), but you don't see me hating on the people who like that stuff.

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» 狂気 on April 25th, 2014, 12:48am

Quote from SilverStorm
Hey, no need to be insulting. I don't like ecchi and boob/panty shots (and trust me, this appears in about 70% of shonen stuff I've read/seen), but you don't see me hating on the people who like that stuff.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but panty shots in shounen manga have no relevance with that. Shiratori didn't say whether he likes or dislikes yaoi or yuri. The subject was the fandom, not the genre.

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» evilcleo on April 25th, 2014, 2:19pm

I thought it pretty obvious they hated yaoi and yuri. I'm a huge yaoi fan and I really object to be called "disgusting." If they can't show any respect for the fandom, what respect do you expect them to have towards the genre?

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» 狂気 on April 25th, 2014, 5:13pm

However you like to view it. However base shiratori's comment was, SilverStorm failed to make a point. That was all I meant. I don't like either genre but I don't especially dislike them either, and I do respect the works on individual basis no matter if they're yaoi/yuri. Your objection is valid. I don't see your assumptions holding any relevance either though.

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» evilcleo on April 27th, 2014, 10:11am

Based on his responses to follow, my assumptions were 100% correct and completely relevant. He even intentionally provoked the fandom he goes so far to hate. I tried the peaceful way of reporting him, more or less to avoid a huge feedback of responses when it was originally posted but as you can see, it didn't work.

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» 狂気 on April 27th, 2014, 12:30pm

Quote from evilcleo
Based on his responses to follow, my assumptions were 100% correct and completely relevant. He even intentionally provoked the fandom he goes so far to hate. I tried the peaceful way of reporting him, more or less to avoid a huge feedback of responses when it was originally posted but as you can see ...

I don't know what you are talking about or what your problem with me is. My problem was SilverStorm's failed analogy. And even that was no big deal, I just corrected her a little.

You reported shiratori? Are you saying you're acting peacefully by reporting him instead of responding to his post? I've imagined "peacefully" means talking things out. Well, however that may be, you've obviously got a problem with him. Why are you taking it out on me?

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» -shiratori- on April 27th, 2014, 12:30pm

Quote from evilcleo
Based on his responses to follow, my assumptions were 100% correct and completely relevant. He even intentionally provoked the fandom he goes so far to hate. I tried the peaceful way of reporting him, more or less to avoid a huge feedback of responses when it was originally posted but as you can see, it didn't work.


Probably because I didn't insult anyone personally. I merely expressed my disgust for the yaoi fandom as a whole, in the same way as one may express his political opinion by hating on capitalists/commies/liberals/conservatives/nazis or w/e. Banning me for that would be ridiculous.

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» Lorska on April 27th, 2014, 1:26pm

Quote from evilcleo
Based on his responses to follow, my assumptions were 100% correct and completely relevant. He even intentionally provoked the fandom he goes so far to hate. I tried the peaceful way of reporting him, more or less to avoid a huge feedback of responses when it was originally posted but as you can see ...


yeah of course such a post won't be deleted. he/she didn't insult anyone, his/her personal likes or dislikes are no reason for deletion. he/she didn't use inappropriate language either so as you can see... nothing happened, for a reason. And he/she isn't a repeat offender anyway so nothing with bans, the two we had are enough already...

I for my part just wanted clarification as to where this hate comes from and he/she explained that. (@狂気: btw that question was only posed to shiratori, as he/she stated, he/she hates both, of course you can't generalize, but in his/her case it was kid of the "easy way" to link both. not to say it is the right one, but I assume you know how easily it is for people nowadays to judge people based on the stuff they like dislike/ or certain traits, sadly. And shiratori's post had that certain feel about it but I can be wrong, and looks like he/she had certain bad experiences with both).
I personally didn't have any negative experiences with yaoi fandom, even though being on this site for a while now and every day, that's the reason for my question...

though I have to admit I never read yaoi... the art style (deduced from covers) alone is something I cannot get into (those guys are supposed to be hot? really? I may not be a girl but eewww - no I don't like bishounen/jo in general. I'd very much prefer some cute or realistic characters. hm avoiding anything smutty would be another point...)

btw: I don't think he/she was provoking the fandom but trying to initiate a discussion about it? I don't think his/her goal was intentionally pissing off people... Not many people do that... I hope... and from what I've seen in this forum so far shiratori isn't such an idiot. Just the feeling that I get though...

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» Unknown on April 25th, 2014, 12:57am

Post Deleted

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» Knightzomegaz on April 25th, 2014, 10:21am

Nice, saw something new...
Didn't just get banned, also got deleted, haha...

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» Lorska on April 25th, 2014, 2:31am

@Vu2010:
stop insulting members, reported...
didn't I tell you this before?

@ 狂気:
well, the "fandom" of shounen are mostly kids in their teens and most kids I see nowadays are more disgusting and loud than fujoshis ever could be, though it is a broader spectrum in general, I don't see fujoshi fandom in any way annoying as they don't propagate or something like that, though you see bleach/op/naruto/ft/etc. fanboys/girls raging all over the net.
if you don't like something, quiet "fandoms" are way nicer.

@shiratori:
In what way did you encounter more of that fandom here? If you browse through the yaoi section that is your choice, there is a reason that those are initially kept from the news page (yaoi, yuri, 18+).
the only things I EVER encounter are yaoi requests in the looking for section, though they are not the only ones that make mistakes (and the threads are moved after some time anyway)...

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» 狂気 on April 25th, 2014, 9:50am

Quote from Lorska
well, the "fandom" of shounen are mostly kids in their teens and most kids I see nowadays are more disgusting and loud than fujoshis ever could be, though it is a broader spectrum in general, I don't see fujoshi fandom in any way annoying as they don't propagate or something like that, though you see bleach/op/naruto/ft/etc. fanboys/girls raging all over the net.
if you don't like something, quiet "fandoms" are way nicer.

I only criticised that illogical reasoning. Personally, I'm not bothered by either. It depends where you hang out. Most people who I know that are particular about shounen manga are adult men. Then again, I don't really know any teenagers. But I do understand both of your points of view. Most every fandom is nerve-wrecking if spent too much time around with, unless you're part of them (or perhaps even then).

Quote from Lorska
@Vu2010:
stop insulting members, reported...
didn't I tell you this before?

Half his posts were like that. Banhammer has spoken.

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» -shiratori- on April 25th, 2014, 9:03pm

Granted, I posted this to provoke a response, but that doesn't make me hate the yaoi fandom (and the genre) any less.

Quote from Lorska
@shiratori:
In what way did you encounter more of that fandom here? If you browse through the yaoi section that is your choice, there is a reason that those are initially kept from the news page (yaoi, yuri, 18+).
the only things I EVER encounter are yaoi requests in the looking for section, though they are not the only ones that make mistakes (and the threads are moved after some time anyway)...


I encounter them in threads like this, that's already too much for me. And since you mentioned it, the yaoi/yuri section should really be split. I feel bad for the yuri readers who have to put up with all the garbage in that section.

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» Lorska on April 26th, 2014, 3:23am

Quote from -shiratori-
Granted, I posted this to provoke a response, but that doesn't make me hate the yaoi fandom (and the genre) any less.


well, I am still curious where this hate comes from, I mean I can understand that people feel disgusted by that (I feel disgusted by beetroot), but I just don't see the reason for hating people who would just read this... (as long as they don't force me to eat that sorry excuse of a vegetable I don't see a reason to throw torches on them...)

Considering about 1/5 of us here on the forum is reading (mostly) yaoi, the number of encounters is ridiculously small.

And btw a non-yaoi-fandom-member started this whole thing... It's not even their fault ><
If yaoi-readers may choose between ignoring questions posed to them or answering and getting insulted/hated we have a serious problem here called bias/prejudice.

two banned members during this poll is just sad, because I thought if you want to be tolerated with your preferences, you should tolerate others too (as long as they don't interfere with you).

Never heard any complaints from the yuri section, that's something they should decide/suggest.

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» Gale1 on April 24th, 2014, 11:52am

i thought that i have read more shoujo, but after counting i really do read more shounen which surprised me. the reason i got mixed up was probably because my favorite mangas are the shoujo with male leads so i think about them more often then others.

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» Cherelle Ashlee on April 24th, 2014, 1:31pm

Shoujo of course, the only genre for me that sends me on an emotional roller coaster lol

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» Cherelle Ashlee on April 24th, 2014, 1:32pm

*accidental double post* sigh

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» imercenary on April 24th, 2014, 10:42pm

WOW. Yaoi is seriously holding its second place position (no pun intended)

Shounen getting first, no surprise there bigrazz

That said, the poll is stupid as hell. Half the options aren't even demographics.

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» Doormouse on April 25th, 2014, 7:12pm

In terms of sheer time spent reading I'd have to choose shounen, I read a crapload of it when I was a kid just because it was the demographic that tended to be translated and sold in bookstores. In terms of what I prefer to read though, I don't really judge a series by what it's tagged as, I'll read anything with a decent story. laugh

@ Everybody arguing over yaoi fangirls roll eyes
I actually am not a fan of manga or how it is perceived because of genres like hentai, yaoi, lolicon and so on., though I have a great respect for authors who use manga as a proper storytelling/artistic medium.

I don't feel comfortable expressing strong dislike for yaoi because I might seem homophobic, but the reason I dislike the genre is because most of it is fetishized, disrespectful representations of homosexual relationships. It can be equated to the distasteful lesbian/underage girl fetish certain grown men have.

I try to respect other people's opinions, but yaoi fangirl =/= lgbt enthusiast. IMO, when a yaoi fangirl supports gay rights, it's questionable whether they actually care or if it's because they jerk off to gay animu people.

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» 狂気 on April 26th, 2014, 10:32am

Quote from Lorska
well, I am still curious where this hate comes from, I mean I can understand that people feel disgusted by that (I feel disgusted by beetroot), but I just don't see the reason for hating people who would just read this... (as long as they don't force me to eat that sorry excuse of a vegetable I don't see a reason to throw torches on them...)

I still can't see any relevance between the two things. Personally I don't especially dislike yaoi, I've even read some. It's just not one of my preferences, so I don't read them. But as for yaoi fandom, generally, I do greatly dislike it. I find them to be, generally, much more prejudiced than other manga fans. That has nothing to do with liking/disliking the genre. The reason I emphasised the word "generally" is because it is, after all, only a generalisation. I do know, and like, some yaoi fangirls. They are exceptions. Or at least so it appears to me.

I, unlike shiratori, have no intention of provoking anything. I'm only trying to say your logic (i.e. disliking beetroot having nothing to do with disliking people who like it) is faulty. Another reason why that specific comparison is faulty is because liking yaoi, a literary genre, is an interest to the person who likes it and certainly has relevance to the personality of that person. If liking certain foods have similar effect, it's indistinguishable. And once more, I'm generalising, not speaking of each individual.

Quote from Doormouse
I actually am not a fan of manga or how it is perceived because of genres like hentai, yaoi, lolicon and so on

You're not a manga fan because of how it is perceived? And perceived like that by whom? That's like saying films are perceived badly because there are porn films. Sure, that's the image some people have. Everything in perceived in different ways by different people. But you are not a fan of something because some people have a bad perception of them due to some genre you might not even have any interest in?

Quote from Doormouse
I don't feel comfortable expressing strong dislike for yaoi because I might seem homophobic

So you feel insecure about yourself? Being afraid what other people think you or the things you like.

Quote from Doormouse
but the reason I dislike the genre is because most of it is fetishized, disrespectful representations of homosexual relationships

That could be said about all sexualisation in any medium.

Quote from Doormouse
It can be equated to the distasteful lesbian/underage girl fetish certain grown men have.

Distasteful in your opinion. Equated? Just how negative you are saying it is by equating it to that tells us nothing unless we know how badly you view adult men's interest in yuri/loli fetish. But you seem to assume that most share that view. Adult woman's interest in yuri/loli manga is better? You seem to just be picking the fetishes that you personally think of as "distasteful". What is this tasteful fetish of yours then?

Quote from Doormouse
I try to respect other people's opinions, but yaoi fangirl =/= lgbt enthusiast. IMO, when a yaoi fangirl supports gay rights, it's questionable whether they actually care or if it's because they jerk off to gay animu people.

I agree, it could be questionable, sure. But where the hell did you draw that defending homosexual rights card from? Where there is any indication of yaoi fangirls being LGBT-activists, as you seem to indicate? I'm not saying there isn't. I'm saying there's no indication anywhere in apparent sight and you failed to provide any source.

In these past couple days I've seen some stupid and prejudiced posts. Yours bested them all.

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» Doormouse on April 26th, 2014, 4:17pm

I didn't come here to start a fight, this site is a niche community and I know I have an unpopular opinion on here, but I also know that there are people who have had the same complaints. I only stated my opinion, I didn't try to push it onto any of you, so there's no need to be aggressive or rude. roll

It's unconvincing when you debate by putting words in my mouth, badgering, and using leading questions.

Perceived by the general public in my country. Such as how bronies carry extremely negative connotations, so some people will not watch or admit to watching mlp due to this fandom. Genres like yaoi and their fandoms give a bad image to the medium. It is prejudiced, and in a more prefect world I wouldn't have to argue this.

There is a clear distinction between porn and film, porn is not published or distributed together with films. Pornography is an entirely different product with it's own genres. Yaoi, hentai, lolicon, and other such genres make up a huge portion of genres that exist under 'Manga'.

Yes, sexualization in any medium is fetishized, I didn't feel like that needed to be stated.
It's distasteful because
A. Objectifying LGBT to stroke your libido is disrespectful and dehumanizing
B. Pedophilia is illegal.
This is not just my view, this is the view of the general, law-abiding public. I didn't think I would need to explain why fetishizing rape, homosexuality, pedophilia is wrong. I didn't think that there would be many people who would consider such actions acceptable and condone its propagation in any medium.

Please don't put words into my mouth, I never said that these fetishes are acceptable for females. No fetishes are tasteful, this is why fetishes have a negative connotation and also why I do not like how manga is perceived. I believe the medium can be used well as a storytelling and artistic medium, but is being abused by genres like yaoi to fuel fetishes. Of course there are exceptions, and intelligent, human characters can be written in such genres.

As for LGBT rights, that's something I've seen and have discussed with others outside of this niche site. I said 'when' not 'all' yaoi fangirls are LGBT enthusiasts. There's a great deal of cyberbalkanization on this site, while the real world has a diversity of interests and values, you might want to go out there and learn to be more open-minded. You shouldn't throw around words like prejudiced if you don't have a good grasp on what it actually means.

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» 狂気 on April 27th, 2014, 7:51am

Quote from Doormouse
It's unconvincing when you debate by putting words in my mouth, badgering, and using leading questions.

I didn't. You were vague. My questions were meant for you to specify your intentions.

Quote from Doormouse
There is a clear distinction between porn and film, porn is not published or distributed together with films. Pornography is an entirely different product with it's own genres. Yaoi, hentai, lolicon, and other such genres make up a huge portion of genres that exist under 'Manga'.

"Hentai" is pornographic manga. Porn films are pornographic films. If your country is biased on this and the manga isn't separated like films are, then it's your local problem. I've never encountered this. You seemed to have implied something else but you were being vague. That's why I asked that question. That seems to be clear not though, but maybe you make such general statements based on only how things work where you live in.

Quote from Doormouse
A. Objectifying LGBT to stroke your libido is disrespectful and dehumanizing
B. Pedophilia is illegal.

A. Porn is objectifying too and so is any sexualisation in most mainstream films nowadays. No, you don't need to state such a fact, but you're separating LGBT from this all as if it was some kind of exception.
B. So? Killing other people is illegal too, mostly. So you shouldn't watch any films or play any games that feature killing people. Most people are capable of separating reality from fiction.

No one asked why fetishising rape or pedophilia is wrong. As far as I'm aware, these topics never came up. I'm not saying homosexual fetish is right (or wrong, for that matter), I'm asking how is it any different from any other fetish, as you seem to separate it.

Quote from Doormouse
Please don't put words into my mouth, I never said that these fetishes are acceptable for females. No fetishes are tasteful, this is why fetishes have a negative connotation and also why I do not like how manga is perceived. I believe the medium can be used well as a storytelling and artistic medium, but is being abused by genres like yaoi to fuel fetishes.

You're making baseless claims, I never said you said that. You were vague and I asked if it's somehow worse when it's about adult men, which you clearly implied, intentionally or otherwise.

As I said, they are tasteless is your opinion for which you don't give any basis. You clearly have an opinion about what kind of manga has serious artistic value and what kind of manga doesn't. My problem with your is that you fail to provide any insight as to why, and your comments make me doubt if there is a reason aside from personal and social bias.

Quote from Doormouse
Of course there are exceptions, and intelligent, human characters can be written in such genres.

And how is it wrong to write about stupid and inhumane characters? Would in your ideal world there be censors to reject any and all fiction that has a hint of obscenity, sexualisation, fetish, illegal activity or whatever else you consider to be part of your universal category or tastelessness. I'm putting words in your mouth? Or perhaps you're just incapable of stating your opinions clearly and the reasons for thinking so.

Quote from Doormouse
There's a great deal of cyberbalkanization on this site, while the real world has a diversity of interests and values, you might want to go out there and learn to be more open-minded. You shouldn't throw around words like prejudiced if you don't have a good grasp on what it actually means.

Seemingly prejudiced statements for which I allowed you to give basis and different perspective in which you failed. I never strictly claimed you were wrong. You were vague and prejudiced. Granted, that might just be because you failed to make any actual argument to support your vague views. But however that might be, you're the last person who should be talking about open-mindedness or correct wording.

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» Doormouse on April 27th, 2014, 6:42pm

Although I'd prefer brevity, you instigated this debate with me, and I am neither fond of ignorant arguments nor leaving my own reasoning flawed.

Your questions are leading the debate away from my initial point. I hope you realize most of your arguments are ad hominems and straw men, fallacies distorting my position to make it easier to attack by:
A. Attacking my character (irrelevant to my position)
B. Quoting me out of context
C. Misrepresenting my position
You're denying the 'straw man', but missing the target, and I hate to defend silly arguments that I otherwise would not have to.

You state 'I've never encountered this', yet you turn around and accuse me of making 'general statements based on only how things work where you live in'. roll
I'm baffled, yes this is the case in my country, I would not speak for countries I've never lived in, I never once implied I was speaking for the entire world, in fact I stated it is my 'opinion' and perhaps the opinion of my peer group. The problem is subjective but true in my country, so it is not a relativist fallacy as you claim. Your debate seems to be trying to deny problems that exist in my country, where you've never lived or have lived for an extended period of time. This is what one would call 'prejudiced'.

A, Sexualization in most 'films' (minus porn) is neither the main plot, nor a subplot, and in films where sexualization is the plot, it's usually there to be deconstructed and establish moral standards. Sexualization being 'mainstream' does not excuse what it is, that is an appeal to popularity, being widely used does not make it any less severe. I separated LGBT from all types of sexualization because that is the issue I am discussing, refer to 'straw man'.
B. Illegal actions are most often characterized negatively in media and are shown to convey disgust/fear/hatred/tension to the audience, while 'loli'/'shota' manga exists to titillate the reader.

You asked me to explain why those fetishes are 'negative', and I don't wish to debate whether morals are objective or subjective, so let's just determine moral standard by what is common democratic law. Again I separate yaoi not because it is more severe than the others, but because that is the topic I am trying to discuss.

This argument is on a slippery slope, I do not wish to debate sexualization in all media, which is why I confined my statements to yaoi. If the argument is expanded from objectifying people in yaoi to objectifying people in porn, to film, to all media...by that point we've already strayed to far from my original intent. In example, this is similar to the debate on LGBT rights, and how some may argue if the same sex are allowed to marry, then marriage between man and animal would be legalized next. It's a slippery slope and a childish way to argue.

I agree that 'artistic value' is subjective, but I do not wish to go into that debate either, so let's agree that any series that has won or been nominated for any of the established 'manga awards' has literary or artistic value. No yaoi, hentai, loli series has ever won or been nominated. Most yaoi writers do not create a series with themes other than 'violent sex bordering on rape' in mind, and churn out series like a factory production line. There may be exceptions, but it is safe to say that the majority of these genres are not made to be more than 'porn' for readers.

I never once claimed anything was objective 'right' or 'wrong', I am only arguing for my subjective morals. Let me specify 'human' for you, they can be stupid, or cruel, or even superheroes with psychic powers, as long as they seem like real people, think like real people, face struggles like real people; fleshed out, well written and created by an author for the purpose of conveying themes. To continue with your porn example, not 'characters' created to act out a short skit that leads to nothing except sex. Sexualization, fetishishs, and illegal activities are all fine and even welcome in such stories as long as they serve a purpose in conveying the theme of the story and are not glorified activities with no value or purpose other than sexual arousal in itself. We can look to Clockwork Orange, which has all three, as a positive example. Yaoi, hentai, etc in this case is no different from porn. and from your 'straw men' statements it seems you agree that porn and sexualization and fetishes are not positive.

Since you hypocritically require me to source, here BL in the West, please feel free to educate yourself with this research paper.
I can also highlight the points from the article that support my argument if you wish, but I've wasted enough time here already. I will however clear up some 'vague' points from the previous round.

I don't feel comfortable expressing dislike for yaoi because I do support gay rights and don't want others to mistakenly claim I am homophobic. If I feared other's opinions I would be vocally and strongly against yaoi because that is what my peers expect of me.

From your defense of yaoi fangirls as non-lgbt enthusiats, you are also defending the fetishization of homosexuality by people who, in life, do not support rights for the very people they sexualize.

I am not arguing on the pretense that my position is the side which is 'politically correct', believing my argument is /true/ does not necessary mean believing it is 'absolute correct'. What is 'right' and 'wrong' in itself is debatable, but what is important in a debate is the choice of a side regardless of whether it is considered 'right' or 'wrong'. The purpose of a debate, typically, is the sway the opinion of a neutral jury in towards one side, the side which then becomes, for the time being, 'correct'. It seems the person who is focused on what is 'correct' at the moment is only you.

You seem to assume that your argument is 'right' simply because you are taking the middle ground, and I would like to inform you that the middle position between two extremes is not always correct. Your arguments are merely opinions as well, please do not imply that your opinions are any more 'right' than my own. In fact, no conclusion can be drawn from this debate as there is no set judge or jury to reach a verdict. In hindsight, I'm no longer interested in debating with a kid who thinks it is proper conduct to instigate a debate by insulting the opponent's argument as 'stupid and prejudiced'. Attacking an argument outright with the belief that you are 'correct' and assuming the counterargument has no basis or even considering the other argument less true only because proof has /yet/ to be given (referred to as 'argument to logic') is what is really 'stupid and prejudiced'. laugh

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» -shiratori- on April 28th, 2014, 5:15pm

Quote from Doormouse
I don't feel comfortable expressing dislike for yaoi because I do support gay rights and don't want others to mistakenly claim I am homophobic. If I feared other's opinions I would be vocally and strongly against yaoi because that is what my peers expect of me.


I guess that should read "If I didn't fear". Anyway, I don't really understand your reasoning. If you are in a high social position, I can see why you would refrain from making comments like this that could be misunderstood. But as a regular person (which I'm just going to assume you are) and on the internet even, why do you care? If your friends read this and misunderstand it, then just tell them what you meant and that's it. If they won't believe you, they're probably not your friends anyway.

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» Doormouse on April 29th, 2014, 4:21am

Hmm I can see why that is confusing, to elaborate, where I live most of the students who are aware of yaoi are intolerant of the fanbase and expect me to also despise the fanbase to the very depths of my soul. However, I am more fed up with the genre itself and manage to somewhat tolerate the fanbase, i.e. they are free to draw what the want as long as they tag nsfw and don't force their interests down my throat. Although, it still kind of ruins my mood when I see fan-art of my favorite characters, who have no canon homosexual tendencies whatsoever, engaged in /extreme/ homosexual activities (gangbangs). Just remembering some of those images..hhhHHHhhh.

As for why I even care, I guess I've developed into the 'super nerd' as in SUPER NERD WANTS TO FIGHT, and start ranting on the internet when I'm tired and tripping (all the time). roll eyes

More seriously though, in the field I major and work in, it is common for the employer to research you on the net prior to hiring you. It is also common to establish a network of peers and connections online for critique and skill building/advice, and for most work to come from freelance jobs via the internet.

In the past when I have expressed my opinions on yaoi, I received various mixed messages, with some of the fanbase accusing me of being homophobic, so I've gotten pretty nervous whenever I express an opinion on controversial topics that might drive people away and cause misunderstanding on my positions. I'm used to blowing off steam by debating on debate.org anonymously now and get carried away when I'm on other forums sometimes. laugh

Edit: Wow, after reading through my posts I think I've reached the apex of super nerd. I get a justice boner for structured debates regardless of whether I advocate the affirmative or negative side, I think I need to lie down and re-evaluate my life.

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» 狂気 on April 29th, 2014, 9:42am

Quote from Lorska
狂気: btw that question was only posed to shiratori

They were both replies to my posts though, but perhaps so. If you don't know which gender someone is you can just say "they". It shouldn't be any mystery though, shiratori's dick is 12 inches long. You can't miss that.

Quote from Doormouse

So far you've yet to give a single argument to support your views. Context and your "position" have nothing to do with that. Don't use Latin if you don't know how to use it. The reasons why you think they are so is because you assume I'm only making arguments against your views. If you try to calm down and read what my posts you might notice my problem was your post's stupidity more than the seeming prejudice of your views.

You say your arguments are silly. I say you haven't made any. When one thinks a personal opinion doesn't need any basis to be universally accepted, they're a moron. When one thinks of their personal opinions as universal truths, they're even a bigger moron.

When a statement that has only regional relevance is made they are not styled as general statements. I think the problem is that you're unable to express your views in the first place. I didn't of think this at first but it seems English is not your first language? Your placement of words often makes your statements very vague and void of any meaning.

Illegal actions "convey disgust/fear/hatred/tension to the audience"? Are you talking about films in general or propaganda films? Or again of films of some specific regional area?

Quote from Doormouse
You asked me to explain why those fetishes are 'negative', and I don't wish to debate whether morals are objective or subjective, so let's just determine moral standard by what is common democratic law.

What has morals being objective or subjective got to do with anything? So in the end what is this moral standard that you determined? What is this common democratic law of yours? Not a single fetish you've brought out has been against "common democratic law" as far as I'm aware. This is where you bring your own subjective view up as objective. I'm putting words in you mouth again? Well perhaps you managed once again to say absolutely nothing. How does one make walls of text without any content?

Quote from Doormouse
so let's agree that any series that has won or been nominated for any of the established 'manga awards' has literary or artistic value. No yaoi, hentai, loli series has ever won or been nominated.

Let us not. Why are you deciding what we should agree with in the first place? And why would manga that is not taken into consideration won anything?

No one wants your sources. That is not a proper was to use a source in the first place. You're like that feminist girl in the breast poll. Don't make statements that seem prejudiced until every reader has read certain seven books and thirteen blog posts to get context if it bothers you when someone questions them.

You claim I attacked your character, assume my own opinions to be correct, defend yaoi fangirls and say your views are by default wrong.

I didn't tell you my own view on the subject, what are you talking about? "it seems you agree that porn and sexualization and fetishes are not positive" is an assumption (one of many) and not entirely true.

I never once defended yaoi fangirls.

You made seemingly prejudiced statements without any arguments to support your views. From the very first I responded to you I didn't disregard your view, I tried to get you to give any supporting arguments. And I'm certainly not taking any middle ground.

If you wish to make moral statements then perhaps you should not write them in such a prejudiced tone without giving any basis for you views. If you're not interested in taking a broader view into consideration then perhaps you should be so vague it leads to such questions.

Any hypocrisy, prejudice, stupidity or lack of argument skills is somewhere else than on my end.

thread

» Lorska on April 29th, 2014, 1:35pm

Quote from 狂気
They were both replies to my posts though, but perhaps so. If you don't know which gender someone is you can just say "they". It shouldn't be any mystery though, shiratori's dick is 12 inches long. You can't miss that.



replies to your post?
Quote
Post #640302 - Reply to (#640256) by SilverStorm

Quote
Post #640421 - Reply to (#640391) by -shiratori-

generally I address people directly if there are multiple people I want to address...
When I don't reply I either accepted your post or decided that I won't accept it no matter what, so don't worry biggrin

Dunno how you got the last part... I would have said he is male with a probability of about 85% judging from his lists, but the error is above the 5% mark... Thanks for the hint, no native speaker so it helps (I guess). It still confuses me how you got the length of certain body parts from his profile or this conversation...

thread

» Doormouse on April 29th, 2014, 4:04pm

As I have mentioned, this debate is not worth my time, but I will answer some general questions (informally and simplified in a way even you can understand). I won't continue the debate, but I am more than happy to pick apart your posts.

1. It is true, English is not my first language (changes nothing/irrelevant to actual debate), but it seems you are implying English /is/ your first language and yet your grammar and lexis is still dismal. 'How does one make walls of text without any content?' Doesn't asking that question already tip you off? One doesn't. Rather than my posts lacking content, your grasp on the English language is just too weak to parse my posts. Or perhaps you subconsciously reject my logic as you are unable to refute me (viz. uneducated)? You read and write with the clarity of a middle schooler (in my country roll ).

You say I am being 'vague' without backing up or clarifying your accusation other than 'vague' statements about my argument being 'vague'. The one who ended up saying nothing this whole conversation is you. I have said plenty. In fact I've wasted my time saying too much to someone who is able to understand too little.

2. I said YOUR straw men arguments are silly. Pls learn 2 read. Pls.

3.
Quote from 狂気
So far you've yet to give a single argument to support your views. Context and your "position" have nothing to do with that.
Sweet baby Jesus, pls stop while you still appear (maybe) mildly intelligent. Context and position (on the topic in question) are what MAKES UP an argument.

4. Ad hominem is an adjective, I was describing your argument, my grammar is correct, moron.

5. I said my opinions are subjective TO ME, I said they were true TO ME. Oh my god, I can't even deal... When people in your country make a statement such as 'I think I'll go to the store today' do they add 'LOCATED WITHIN [INSERT WHATEVER FREAKING COUNTRY YOU ARE FROM]'. Usually if one is referring to a universal truth that applies to the ENTIRE WORLD, they would state as such. Use your common sense, or perhaps you are just trying to misrepresent my position. roll

6. I don't know what films you have been watching, but I've never seen a movie where mass murder is depicted as a good thing.

7. Pls refer to to a Democratic country, and then refer to their laws. If the country is Democratic, the laws should be a basic moral standard set by the people of the country. Congratulations, you have just learned common Democratic law. Again, pedophilia is a fetish that is against the law.

8.
Quote from 狂気
I'm not saying there isn't. I'm saying there's no indication anywhere in apparent sight and you failed to provide any source.

Quote from 狂気
So far you've yet to give a single argument to support your views.

/Provides you with research paper with findings to support my arguments.
Quote from 狂気
No one wants your sources.
Wat.
Also your freaking 'English'...my 'views' and my 'arguments' are interchangeable, literally they mean the same damn thing.

9.
Quote from 狂気
And why would manga that is not taken into consideration won anything?
Quote from 狂気
That is not a proper was to use a source in the first place.

U r tru poet. laugh

10. Wow that low blow at feminists (and also the crude comment about the size of shiratori's privates) is prejudiced as hell. I mentioned ONE (not seven and twelve blog posts) book, which happens to be a widely-read classic (in my country), and is part of proper mandatory high school education, which you seem to lack. Also, 'that' feminist in 'the' breast poll, now that's what I call vague. What the hell are you referring to. That stab was literally in no way related to the discussion, and was just an attack on my character. (AD HOMINEM!) (LOGICAL FALLACY!)

11.
Quote from 狂気
You claim I attacked your character, assume my own opinions to be correct, defend yaoi fangirls and say your views are by default wrong.

Where do I even begin...first of all stop switching tenses in the same sentence. Second...grammar...just....grammar.
A. Attacks on my character: Stupid, moron, prejudiced, insecure, incapable. Dat extensive and magnificent vocabulary lul.
B. Assuming your opinions correct/My views incorrect: All your rhetorical questions. They were challenges to my argument. Issuing them in question form does not exempt you from their implications. Perhaps that is not your intention and just an effect of your lack of understanding of English and grammatical inflections?
C. Defending the fanbase:
Quote from 狂気
But where the hell did you draw that defending homosexual rights card from? Where there is any indication of yaoi fangirls being LGBT-activists, as you seem to indicate?

See answer B. Also, how does it feel to be quoted out of context? Context doesn't matter, right? I hope you see the intended irony in my questions. Allow me to point it out for you.

12.
Quote from 狂気
I didn't tell you my own view on the subject, what are you talking about?

See below.
Quote from Doormouse
but the reason I dislike the genre is because most of it is fetishized, disrespectful representations of homosexual relationships

Quote from 狂気
That could be said about all sexualisation in any medium.

No argument against sexualization being fetishized and disrespectful. Implied agreement. Perhaps it's just your weak English skills in action?

13.
Quote from 狂気
You made seemingly prejudiced statements without any arguments to support your views.

Quote from 狂気
I never once defended yaoi fangirls.

Quote from 狂気
And I'm certainly not taking any middle ground.

I spoke out against yaoi fangirls, you are against my 'prejudiced' opinion, yet you also 'did not defend fangirls'. Do you need me to define middle ground for you. Really?

14.
Quote from 狂気
If you're not interested in taking a broader view into consideration then perhaps you should be so vague it leads to such questions.

LOL, if you had countered with an actual position with its own 'basis' we could have had a proper debate and maybe you could have convinced me on your positions. However, as you said, you never gave your 'own views' and only countered with vague, passive-aggressive questions.You don't provide me with a reasonable counter-view to even take into consideration and then accuse me of not being interested in a broader view? How can I be when your 'argument' is so weak and unconvincing? Where is YOUR basis?

Never in my life have I met someone as hypocritical and unable to...understand words...as much as you. I feel like I'm being trolled right now, rather than you lacking so much...understanding.

Being rude and informal feels so much better than trying to have a polite, formal debate. I was not being vague previously, I was ignoring your fallacies and rudeness and trying to properly debate my side without getting sidetracked/offtopic. Can't say I didn't put effort into treating you like an intelligent human. You're like an angry kid trying to grasp at straws on the losing side of an argument, throwing around big words you are clearly not ready to use. I have no 'argument' (lol) skills? You debate like you've never even heard of formal, structured debate in your life. 'Hypocrisy, prejudice, stupidity' and SO MANY logical fallacies, it's all there in your posts, you're just too blinded by yourself to see them. Picking apart a post, rather than providing an actual counterargument, feels so good (and takes up so little brain power), I can see why you do it. Viva stupidity, I've been too spoiled by interacting with too many intelligent people on the internet.

thread

» weronique on April 26th, 2014, 1:07am

I went for Josei, but compared to Shonen and Shojo there's not so much of it.
What I mean is, that when you feel like "I've read it all" with Shojo/Shonen, it's easy to find a new series to read, but with Josei you may have to wait a bit... *shrugs*

thread

» -shiratori- on April 26th, 2014, 6:11pm

I agree to some extent with Doormouse, however, I'd like to point out that the difference between loli/rape hentai and yaoi is, that the great majority of hentai is straight-up porn and doesn't try to be anything beyond that.
Yaoi on the other hand usually tries to portray things like romance and relationships all while heavily utilizing rape, violence, abuse and S/M themes and not only trivializing them, but portraying them as something "romantic".

I have nothing against these themes used in porn, but making a moral point to justify them (as much yaoi does), is simply disgusting imo.

Coupled with a heavy dose of ignorance about real homosexual relationships and homophobia (how ironic) I think yaoi is offensive for homo- and heterosexuals alike.

That being said, what mainly draws my attention to this issue is the obnoxious behavior of fujoshis on various sites and how it is hard to avoid them. Maybe I'm a bit sensitive, but they've become somewhat of a red carpet for me.

thread

» -shiratori- on April 29th, 2014, 6:28pm

12 inch dick? Nah.

It's really not that hard to tell I'm a guy though. My argumentation style is pretty aggressive, that's uncommon for girls.

thread

» Knightzomegaz on April 30th, 2014, 12:18am

Then I guess it'd be better for you to specify your gender then,
How hard could it be?...

Topic:
I don't like Yaoi,
But I have nothing against people that reads/likes it...

It's like, I kinda like (or I do like Ecchi),

To all the guys that like the same genre:
Wouldn't it be rude if someone were to just say,
"You like Ecchi?! Ewwwww... Pervert.. (+ a disgusted look, not the joking look)" or something like that..

Uhhhh, if I'm off topic (debate), dunno...

thread

» -shiratori- on April 30th, 2014, 4:10am

Quote from Knightzomegaz
Then I guess it'd be better for you to specify your gender then,
How hard could it be?...

Why? It's not even relevant. If you really want to know, send me a pm.

Quote from Knightzomegaz
Topic:
I don't like Yaoi,
But I have nothing against people that reads/likes it...

It's like, I kinda like (or I do like Ecchi),

To all the guys that like the same genre:
Wouldn't it be rude if someone were to just say,
"You like Ecchi?! Ewwwww... Pervert.. (+ a disgusted look, not the joking look)" or something like that..

Uhhhh, if I'm off topic (debate), dunno...


Well, it's safe to say that ecchi manga give the whole medium a bad reputation. Aside from that, I think it's by far not as bad as reading yaoi.

thread

» Cainam on April 29th, 2014, 11:21pm

I apologize to all admins and moderators, I just want to proclaim something that out of topic from the main issue here. It simply getting on my nerve.

I detest and despise all LBGT people and their enthusiasts, it's no use argue over it, no one can change that fact.
I don't mind you (refer to all LBGT people and their enthusiasts) hate me since I don't need you. In fact, no one in the world need you (except among yourselves), if you ever felt you're needed by somebody, trust me, you just imagining things.
If you are man, be proud of it and live as a man. If you are a woman, be proud of it and live as a woman. You don't like it because you have inferiority complex over it. You are human, not a hermaphrodite organism. Don't force your sick mind to other people using freedom.

thread

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