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neroneelfico
Post #584675
Member

8:11 pm, Jan 20 2013
Posts: 12


Oh, I'm also Italian btw bigrazz

reid1
Post #584695 - Reply to (#584599) by HitsujinoHon
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11:33 pm, Jan 20 2013
Posts: 2021


Quote from HitsujinoHon
And sorry to say, but explaining science with magic in a way that it seems real is much better than comparing those ancient gods a great number of people don't even believe in.
Research on mythology won't help anyone but the person themselves, while research on science would benefit everyone. Science is far superior to Mythology. Something simply mythical, the so-called Mythology isn't even worth comparing to something as Great as Science.


First, the concept of "magic" exists only thanks to myths. If there were no myths there would no such concept, since magic was the ritual to subjugate supernatural powers and entities to your bidding and until the advent of monotheistic religions magic and religion were inseparable. The word μαγικός (magikos) has been first used in fact to refer to rituals performed by Zoroastrian priests.
I wonder if there were no mythology what magic could your great masterpiece talk about.

Second, according to your reason, if I write a book of one page where I explain why a pen launched in the air it's gonna come back to me, I'm writing a better book than Campione! because my book talks about science. I hope I don't have to argument further this point.

Third, the fact that science is helping everyone is only a subjective opinion. You should try to say that to someone born in Chernobyl after 1986 to see if they agree, maybe they don't. They would have preferred to live a simple rural life filled with hardship instead of being born with deformed limbs and dying of cancer. Also, how the atomic bomb deployed on Hiroshima and Nagasaki benefit humanity? Please explain that to me. How children in Africa dying by walking on a land mine are helped by science? Please explain that to me. How guns are a benefit? How the pollution from factories is helping on the long run? According to your point if Hitler had better science and technology humanity would have benefit. Obviously I'm not saying there are no benefit, but I believe that education and culture are superior because thanks to that we have a conception of good and evil and we know how to correctly use science. And that originated from moral issues which track down to an ethic code that it has been mostly originated by religion and mythology. Unless you're gonna explain to me how your superior science can explain the concept of good and evil and why I shouldn't kill an annoying coworker of mine since his existence don't benefit me. Or why scientists shouldn't try experiments on humans? If we just take stupid humans that can't help the advance of the superior science it should be fine to use them as guinea pigs. Try to explain scientifically that to me, please. Otherwise, since you're not questioning the use of science I say that your point is invalid.

Fourth: by definition magic can't be explained by science. Since MKnR starts by saying that this was an error, MKnR is questioning a basic principle of science accepted by every scientists. Therefore MKnR is not scientific.

Quote from neroneelfico
Oh, I'm also Italian btw bigrazz


Bella! biggrin Leggiti Hakomari, fidati!
(Nice! biggrin Read Hakomari, trust me!)

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HitsujinoHon
Post #584741 - Reply to (#584695) by reid1
Member

8:07 am, Jan 21 2013
Posts: 31


Quote
First, the concept of "magic" exists only thanks to myths. If there were no myths there would no such concept, since magic was the ritual to subjugate supernatural...


Did I ever say otherwise?
I simply wanted to explain that his excessive research on myths isn't going to make the novel any better as a whole.
'Campione!' and 'MKnR' are novels that involve magic, but still Campione! didn't even make it in top 50.
Why?!
The reason is obvious. MKnR has a lot better storyline, but Campione's story is not much better than your usual harem series. Those so-called in-depth mythology researches were not at all enough to compensate for the lack in the quality of the series.

That's what I'm talking about!

Quote
Second, according to your reason, if I write a book of one page where I explain why a pen launched...


Again, I never said anything like that.
It goes without saying that I was talking about 'quality stuff,' and not about just 'anything.'
If you did misinterpret my implication, I hope now it's all clear.

Quote
Third, the fact that science is helping everyone is only a subjective opinion. You should try to say that to someone born in Chernobyl after 1986 to see if they agree, maybe they don't. They would have preferred...


Right back at you!

People throughout the world are being led astray because of magic and stuff related to myths.
'Myth' is considered so wrong in itself that we even use standard phrases like, "Myths and Facts," which is equal to saying "The lies and the truth."
Do you know the reason behind terrorist attacks on USA and many other countries that have been and are still targeted?
They call it their so-called 'holy war,' that is completely based on mythical nonsense.
They think they'll get to live in heaven in their afterlife if they do all those terrible stuff.

I'm not saying Science doesn't have any flaws, like the ones you mentioned.
But still, Science is way better than Myths.
Science helped us solve tons of myths, leading to welfare and liberty of many people and social classes.
During old times(and this still happens a lot in many countries), men, women and children were brutally killed and ill-treated in the name of exorcism, witch hunts, etc.
People divided the social hierarchy based on myths, looking down on others below their status.
And there are many more stuff like that.

And for your information, education isn't really related to myths.
Rather, even scholars meet their downfall when they started believing in myths.
Hence, Myth is a disaster to education and ethics.
Science, the power that solves these myths, is the true leader of education.

If you were asked to choose who's the true teacher between the mother who gave you birth and the person who taught you how to differentiate between good and bad, what would be your choice?

Well, I know you're not going to stop since you're taking offense just because you're an Italian(Italy playing a significant role in 'Campione!') and mythology was an important part of your studies. It's obvious you'd try to keep defending mythology(and 'Campione!) because of those reasons.
Since I'm neither related with Mythology nor with Science, my perspective to judge those novels is definitely better than you(i.e., I'm not biased).

Anyway, I've already said what I wanted to mention.
If I don't stop here, I don't know how long this off-topic debate is going to extend.
Therefore, this is my last reply to this topic.

-- Let's meet again, and hope that at that time we'd be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with each other...
I hope the swing of our swords would be in harmony with each other, to enlighten the one that has strayed into the darkness...
--

Heh...See you, my friend wink

jahu
Post #584783
user avatar
Member

6:44 pm, Jan 21 2013
Posts: 1045


Pui Pui! - somewhat

reid1
Post #584786
user avatar
 Member

6:52 pm, Jan 21 2013
Posts: 2021


I'm not taking offense. You're the one who took offense since you started a discussion by accusing someone else that the Campione! recommendation was off. And you didn't even help this thread by suggesting something.
I'm just saying that we can't base how good something according only to its main topic. And that a work which sells more isn't necessary better than a work which sells less, unless you think stuff like Twilight and Naruto are masterpiece. That's all.

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BlackOrion
Post #585355
user avatar
Not-BlackOrion
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5:57 pm, Jan 27 2013
Posts: 732


Ok, as third party, i will said that from where i'm standing reid1 is, CLEARLY, on the right here, his texts are shorter and more composed than yours, and it's obvious who took offence for what....

To begin with MKnR is not that original a read, very cliché aspects with a bit of a (more or less) fresh stand, Super protagonist (like there are so many), brother complex, Hidden power/identity... nothing really new (and i don't want to spoil it for anyone who doesn't read it but the "artificial" nature of the main character is not anything new either, nor is his personality)
It's a good read, i know, but i don't think is that "wow!" in my opinion.


Also I would like to recommend, for the good of this thread. the following Manga:

Ratman
Ao no Futsumashi
ARAGO - London Shikei Tokushu Hanzai Sousakan
Eyeshield 21
Ultimate!! Hentai Kamen (This one is about a perverted hero, is more comedy than anything but he does hide his identity so why not right?)
The legend of Maian
Young Gun Carnaval

I also wanted to say Yankee-kun to Megane-chan but it was already recommended, anyway, if i remember anything more i will post again.


edit: You can also try the Manga version for Spiderman too. It's really good and special in how matured a tone it takes compared to the Occidental version, that i loved up to the 700 of ASM

HitsujinoHon
Post #585471
Member

3:57 pm, Jan 28 2013
Posts: 31


I know I said that my previous reply would be the last one, but I mentioned it assuming the case that no one else other than the two of us would be participating in this conversation.
So, I'm replying to this topic once again to answer the new participant.

Quote
Ok, as third party, i will said that from where i'm standing reid1 is, CLEARLY, on the right here, his texts are shorter and more composed than yours, and it's obvious who took offence for what....


Yeah, a third party, who "really likes Campione!, AND can't stand someone saying anything against it."

But you know, even I really like Campione!. I'm one of the fans of this Super Popular genre called "harem", and Campione is quite a treat for a harem fan like me. But still, I've got the brain to judge which work is better, unlike you.

If I were to follow your thought pattern, Campione! would be called nothing but a Super Cliché harem story, and that again means in itself that you're only supporting my point that MKnR is still better than Campione!. That is, if I were to state the things as 'you' did(like this -> Campione! is nothing really new, very cliché aspects, nothing but Harem, the end). Now, don't try to defend yourself on this point, okay? lol
Just read your post and think about it properly before you even decide to say anything.
At least MKnR has variety unlike Campione!, even if I put things similar to what you mentioned.

How much a person likes something, is purely a subjective matter, so your not thinking of it as a "wow!" work doesn't matter in the least.
There's people who don't think 'Death Note' is a "wow!" work, but does that matter at all?
Majority believes it's great, and that's the same with MKnR.
(Just so others don't misunderstand me, I'd like to mention that by using "Death Note" as an example, I'm not implying MKnR to be its equal.)

Again, If I were to rate a manga based on 'your thought pattern', Campione! would get nothing more than 4/10 from me. But currently, I rate it as 8/10, which means there's something seriously wrong with how you consider and judge things.

And here you are, trying to object my way of handling things, and failing yourself in even thinking about them properly. laugh


By the way, reid1, I'm also not saying that a work which sells is better, and I completely agree with you on this point.
I was simply using the ranking to mention the reason for MKnR surpassing Campione!.
My impression of MKnR wouldn't have fallen in the least even if it got the last rank, because it's simply that good.

Campione! is obviously a good read and one of my favorites. So obviously, I really enjoy it too.
I only wanted to mention that MKnR is better than Campione in various aspects, so it shouldn't be considered "on par" with MKnR. .
That's it. smile

EDIT:

@ BlackOrion:

Our debate was about which one of those two novels is better. And so, getting into our conversation without even knowing a thing about it could only mean that the one who's truly a "loser" is YOU.
A person who spends his time looking for a chance to speak ill of others, has to be a big loser.

@ reid1:
Quote
The point I was trying to make is simply that people are entitled to have their opinion of what is better and one just has to deal with it.


Wow! Someone really knows how to speak lies smoothly.
From the very start you were defending Campione! because of your clearly biased perspective.
You did nothing but explain how Campione! could be called a better work than MKnR.
Well, that's just like you, reid1.
A person who clearly doesn't like MKnR(it's clear from your post, my friend) and Death Note(Now I can somewhat understand why you won't like MKnR) finds 'Campione!' REally GOod?!
I know everyone has their own tastes, but still, it doesn't hide the fact that there's something wrong with you. May be you're simply really biased about your tastes?

Although I did compare Science ad Mythology, but that wasn't my point in replying to this thread.
The point was MKnR is better than Campione!, and anyone who's truly sound minded would definitely agree with me. I'm almost sure about it.
I really like both of them, so I can judge them without being biased. And that's the reason I can tell that which one is better.

Quote
People don't agree with me = their reasons is biased because they're clearly not entitled to have a different opinion from mine.


Absolutely wrong interpretation, dude.
I can judge both of them impartially due to my fondness for both of them. That's why, anyone who would say otherwise would only be someone biased, like you.

@ Badkarma:

You interpretation was close, but not quite their.

Quote
when he's doing the SAME EXACT THING with Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei, is pretty funny. Not 'ha ha' funny, though. Maybe more...


Have you even read my previous posts?!
I can't even think about doing anything of that sort, because I really like both of them.
Now, for you to get into this conversation without even paying attention to my previous posts, is what I would call pretty funny.

As for the latter part of your post, MKnR is a lot better than most of the novels without a doubt.
I, who have read all the novels + Web arcs of MKnR know this very well that its use of clichés is better than most of the works, and of course, it gives a feeling of uniqueness in the way it's written.

@ 0oKat~0:

Quote
What really tickles me for the argument would be how HitsujinoHon automatically assumes that he's the impartial judge of both series, and how obvious it is to anyone reading it that, no,


And what really tickles "me" is, you never paid any attention to my previous posts and automatically assumed that I couldn't be an impartial judge simply because I was saying MKnR is better, LOL

Quote
I found Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei passable. Not bad, but nothing fantastic or what I would term as a 'masterpiece'. But that's my few cents, tbh.


Like I said before, everyone has their own tastes, so it really doesn't matter what's your opinion about it.

@ reid:

I don't want to mention anything that goes against Campione!(because of obvious reasons), but you're simply asking for it:

Quote
To begin with Campione! is not that original a read, very cliché aspects with a bit of a (more or less) fresh stand, a Strong protagonist (like there are so many), harem... nothing really new


Quote
In my own opinion, I don't see why people would even bother putting Campione! on THIS kind of a pedestal.


Quote
I found Campione! passable. Not bad, but nothing fantastic. But that's my few cents.


From reid1:
Quote
After all, why have an opinion when you can just check the ranking and see how good something is?


OMG! This dude has got to be a Campione! fanatic.
I clearly mentioned in my previous post that using ranking was nothing more than an example, but he's still going on about that?!
He has got got to be either a Die hard fan of Campione or a True Hater of MKnR. Or, may be both of them applies to him?! laugh

P.S.: This one really is my last reply to this topic. I've already said what I wanted, and if there's some people that can't agree with me due to their biased reasons, it just can't be helped no matter what I say.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------

Last edited by HitsujinoHon at 7:17 am, Feb 2

tgirl
Post #585498
user avatar
hoo ha
Member

8:38 pm, Jan 28 2013
Posts: 226


While this thread is still active, here are three past threads to make this thread fully complete (for the "hidden" aspect, at least):

1) Re-awaken dark past

2) Manga/Manhwa/Manhua/Anime with secrets

3) Male main character with a dark past

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BlackOrion
Post #585521 - Reply to (#585471) by HitsujinoHon
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Not-BlackOrion
 Member

1:23 am, Jan 29 2013
Posts: 732


Quote from HitsujinoHon
I know I said that my previous reply would be the last one, but I mentioned it assuming the case that no one else other than the two of us would be participating in this conversation.
So, I'm replying to this topic once again to answer the new participant.

Quote
Ok, as third party, i will said that from ...



I have never read Campione, nor do i know what it's about at all. I just like to get into conversation and point out the clear Loser, in this case you.

reid1
Post #585522 - Reply to (#585471) by HitsujinoHon
user avatar
 Member

2:17 am, Jan 29 2013
Posts: 2021


Quote from HitsujinoHon
I only wanted to mention that MKnR is better than Campione in various aspects, so it shouldn't be considered "on par" with MKnR. .
That's it. smile


Quote from BlackOrion
I have never read Campione, nor do i know what it's about at all. I just like to get into conversation and point out the clear Loser, in this case you.


It's useless BlackOrion, what HitsujinoHon either doesn't get or refuses to understand is that even if I'm defending Campione! and I like it more than MKnR, that wasn't the point I was trying to make in the first place. The point I was trying to make is simply that people are entitled to have their opinion of what is better and one just has to deal with it. And that you can't just drop by in a thread to criticize another person for making a solid recommendation just because you think the recommended work isn't "on par" with the other. He still arrogantly thinks he's right and it's totally legit to jump in just to criticize, lacking respectfulness to the guy who made the recommendation and the guy who opened the thread to ask for advice. If I would have jumped in every thread to bash someone for recommending Sword Art Online or Death Note because I think they're crap my post number would be a five digit number. And the second point I was trying to make for which he says I'm biased is that you can't judge a book for its subject (that was the English word I couldn't find before, lol!) otherwise MKnR is even better than the Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri since the first deals with science and the latter deals with religion/mythology. Of course one is free to think that MKnR is better than the masterpiece of Italian literature, but he can't say it's better for that reason, otherwise he's judging with "a priori knowledge" and so he's not making a reasoning.


Quote from HitsujinoHon
if there's some people that can't agree with me due to their biased reasons, it just can't be helped no matter what I say.


People don't agree with me = their reasons is biased because they're clearly not entitled to have a different opinion from mine. LOL

Oh, and just for the sake of it, I'm an atheist and a big science fan (true science, not MKnR science, I enjoyed books like "Fermat's Last Theorem" and "From the Big Bang to Black Holes" for instance), I just can find pro and cons in every subject and react according to it.


Lastly, I'm gonna apologize to neroneelfico for having uselessly taken so much space in his thread.

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Vudoodude
Post #585526
Member

3:16 am, Jan 29 2013
Posts: 305


I call your ratman and young gun carnivals and raise you a dendrobates



0oKat~0
Post #585585
Member

2:16 pm, Jan 29 2013
Posts: 132


The argument on this thread is actually rather entertaining, tbh. biggrin Pity I didn't stumble onto this thread earlier.

Anyway, back to the topic. Here's my few cents. Black Cat, The Legendary Moonlight Sculptor (Novel) and Yureka.

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Badkarma
Post #585610 - Reply to (#585585) by 0oKat~0
user avatar
An F to judge M!
Member

9:53 pm, Jan 29 2013
Posts: 354


Yeah, it's pretty hilarious, even if I understand what HitsujinoHon's trying (but failing) to say. I think he's saying comparing Campione! to Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei is like comparing 'Meet the Parents' to 'The Godfather Part II'. Both are entertaining, and 'Meet the Parents' might be generally more "enjoyable" or approachable for most, but when we're discussing Oscar nominations or "De Niro's finest hour', Meet the Parents becomes something you scoff at like a bourgeoisie film snob, whether you liked it or not.

(I'd also like to make it quite clear that this is my interpretation of what I believe HitsujinoHon's trying to say, not my own ideals. I think this goes without saying, but with all the word feeding in this thread, I feel the need to pen it out.)

THAT said, HitsujinoHon's use of ENORMOUS logical fallacies and asinine statements like 'Yeah, a third party, who "really likes Campione!, AND can't stand someone saying anything against it', when he's doing the SAME EXACT THING with Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei, is pretty funny. Not 'ha ha' funny, though. Maybe more 'heh heh...yeeeah.... *awkward sidelong glance*' kind of funny.

In my own opinion, I don't see why people put Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei on THIS kind of a pedestal. Sure, I think it's generally better than other light novels... but it's still a light novel complete with all the clichés and understood assumptions that come with being an "anime logic" type novel. It betrays those expectations on a lot of levels, but also it doesn't completely shun them, either, so it's in a sorta semi 'transcend the medium' state.

It's that one light novel you tell yourself, "Wow, I bet I can hook my non-anime watching friend into reading this." But when you go to re-read the parts that made you think this way, you come across all those silly anime clichés you glossed over because they don't even register to you anymore unless you're specifically paying attention to them, and think "Oh..... well, maybe not."

*shrugs*


In an effort to make this a valid post, try Chrome Shelled Regios (novel) or Chrome Shelled Regios: Missing Mail. The novel is shounen; the manga reads like a shoujo. Pick whatever tickles your happy place.


EDIT:

@HitsujinoHon - Nah, I'm pretty sure I got you pegged.

~Still figuring out what "An F to judge M!" means,
badkarma


Last edited by Badkarma at 12:22 am, Oct 13

0oKat~0
Post #585784 - Reply to (#585610) by Badkarma
Member

12:06 pm, Jan 31 2013
Posts: 132


Haha! Where's the 'like' button for this? I love the way you described the argument. What really tickles me for the argument would be how HitsujinoHon automatically assumes that he's the impartial judge of both series, and how obvious it is to anyone reading it that, no, he's not being objective at all. In fact, even if he tried, I doubt he could be any more subjective than he already is. *shakes head*

I found Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei passable. Not bad, but nothing fantastic or what I would term as a 'masterpiece'. But that's my few cents, tbh.

As for the recs (if the TI is still following the thread) --> Kuragehime, Saijou no Meii, Hitomi - Tenkuu no Escaflowne,

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reid1
Post #585787 - Reply to (#585355) by BlackOrion
user avatar
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12:43 pm, Jan 31 2013
Posts: 2021


Quote from BlackOrion
To begin with MKnR is not that original a read, very cliché aspects with a bit of a (more or less) fresh stand, Super protagonist (like there are so many), brother complex, Hidden power/identity... nothing really new


Quote from Badkarma
In my own opinion, I don't see why people put Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei on THIS kind of a pedestal.


Quote from 0oKat~0
I found Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei passable. Not bad, but nothing fantastic or what I would term as a 'masterpiece'. But that's my few cents, tbh.


Abandon all opinions, ye who write here.

After all, why have an opinion when you can just check the ranking and see how good something is? laugh

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