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"Anime/Manga is racist" is a faulty statement

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movingstone
Post #597897 - Reply to (#597894) by wolfinthesheep
Member

9:46 pm, May 6 2013
Posts: 155


Quote from wolfinthesheep
http://shamanking.wikia.com/wiki/Chocolove_McDonell

Typical example of racist representations of black people in anime and manga. Every other character has straight, angular faces and non-existent lips. The one African American character looks like a Blackface stereotype.



All I have to reply to this is go back look up at the definitions I posted in the first post of this thread and tell me which definition it fell under. Ignorant/Stereotypes do not always equate to racism. Asking an Asians where they are from, despite the fact that they may have living here for generations. That is cultural ignorant. But that doesn't equate to racism.

And also do you know what Blackface is used for?? Do you?? Is it blackface in this instance? And is the purpose of blackface is used in this instance??

I once draw a Swastika and got detention for it. But I ain't draw no Nazi sign, I draw what I saw from my favorite childhood show Journey to the West which was about Buddhism.

wolfinthesheep
Post #597898 - Reply to (#597897) by movingstone
Member

10:02 pm, May 6 2013
Posts: 182


Quote from movingstone
All I have to reply to this is go back look up at the definitions I posted in the first post of this thread and tell me which definition it fell under. Ignorant/Stereotypes do not always equate to racism. Asking an Asians where they are from, despite the fact that they may have living here for ...


While I can't say that one specific example is purposefully meant to be Blackface, Japan does explicitly do Blackface comedy on numerous occasions http://www.thomasawilson.com/global-communication/japanese- blackface/

Note that one example involves President Obama and his wife, so it's still extremely common in present day.

And while it's not nearly as malicious as racism in the United States, there is still and underlying message of "people with dark skin are funny" as well as "African American people are funny". A lot of the comedy skits like the one in the link are simply Japanese people with Blackface pretending to be black people...the Louis Armstrong one is literally just a guy with a blackface smiling like Louis Armstrong, moving around to "What a Wonderful World".

It should be noted that it's also not specifically "Japanese hate African Americans". A lot of their portrayals of any outside culture tends to be the same. More or less, Japan is a very isolationist country and society, so the foreign world is viewed for interest and entertainment rather than integration.

EDIT: Just realized 2 of those embedded videos were removed. You can probably still find them, and their ilk, on youtube under different postings.

movingstone
Post #597944 - Reply to (#597898) by wolfinthesheep
Member

4:46 am, May 7 2013
Posts: 155


Quote from wolfinthesheep
And while it's not nearly as malicious as racism in the United States, there is still and underlying message of "people with dark skin are funny" as well as "African American people are funny"......

It should be noted that it's also not specifically "Japanese hate African Americans". A lot of their portrayals of any outside culture tends to be the same. More or less, Japan is a very isolationist country and society, so the foreign world is viewed for interest and entertainment rather than integration.


So far, of all of the posters, you gave me the most evidences to sway me. Although, black face that was used in the USA to convey comedy the same way as their usage in those examples you gave. But blackface in the USA was to mock the intelligent of black individual in which help to promote/retain the re-existing inequality within the USA. The agenda was quite clear actually within the USA context to see blacks as second class citizens.

However, let me ask you this. Because of my American influences, politician commentators gave a lot of leeway to free speech under comedy categories. And as a progressive, I worry deeply about inequality in America, but often I disagree with my fellow liberals/progressives. For instance, isn't this very similar to what you just posted? And yet, I don't feel it as racism.

Mad tv's Miss Swan- isn't this exactly like blackface http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6e25sqD_WA

How about racial jokes?? I do feel that in certain situations, I think the entertainers can get away with it. Especially if the jokes are funny and harmless. But geez, then there are people like this who react to Eyeshield 21.

Quote
How many people were aware that this book contained a racist image that is humiliating to black people and still allowed this book to arrive upon American shores unedited? How many people saw that image, shrugged their shoulders, and thought that the feelings of black people were not worth the time and effort it would take to edit or remove the panel? How many people thought that the offensive image wasn't worth calling attention to because they have bitterly accepted the idea that the Japanese have embraced racist images that are humiliating to black people and will never relinquish their desire for blackface and depictions of Sambo?

....

But now I'm angry. I'm real angry. Because the hate is now being shipped back to my shores to be immersed in my culture after black Americans have spent hundreds of years trying to shake it like a bad virus. And here it is again in a mutated form being packaged to our children so the world can tell them once again how ugly and insignificant it thinks they are.


How about this vid of Robert Downey jr's blackface??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q

========================================================

In regard to B, since people still misunderstand my point. It is goddam obvious that B can rap and act like rappers (to an extent). Anybody with eyes or brain could see that. But what I argue was, so if a manga featured 20 black guys, can 1 of them act the stereotype? And does stereotypes equal racism?

American comics are usually bad at convey Asians. Sometimes, it is so water down like this person is just partially Asian (heritage wise). And or that person is just Asian because the creator said he/she was but no one can ever guess that he/she is Asian. So is that diversity, just for diversity sake when there is absolutely no substance to back it up?

Edit: an example of this is Artermis from Young Justice- she is partially Vietnamese, who knew.

Last edited by movingstone at 4:51 am, May 7

wolfinthesheep
Post #598026 - Reply to (#597944) by movingstone
Member

6:46 pm, May 7 2013
Posts: 182


Quote from movingstone
So far, of all of the posters, you gave me the most evidences to sway me. Although, black face that was used in the USA to convey comedy the same way as their usage in those examples you gave. But blackface in the USA was to mock the intelligent of black individual in which help to promote/retai ...


About the Miss Swan thing, isn't she just acting like an idiot/troll? I'm not really seeing any racial stereotypes involved there. The comedy is that she's being an irritating bitch, not that she's acting like someone in particular. At least, I don't think so...it may be a reference that's just flying straight over my head.

In Tropic Thunder, Robert Downey Jr. is specifically acting as a White Actor who has taken on the role of a Black Man in a movie. While it is definitely Blackface, it's in universe Blackface, and a major controversy within the story itself.


And no, not every instance of racial stereotyping is racism. Take Black Lagoon, for example. Several of the characters are racial caricatures...the sole Black man is a gangster, there's a Chinese woman who speaks in very stereotypical "Me love you long time" broken English, there's Americans that are basically modern day cowboys. But because everyone in the series is some part of a criminal underworld, and because of the diversity of the cast with a very wide range of character types, the bad stereotypes that do show up are pointedly quirks of sole characters rather than a generalization.

dae428
Post #598031
Member

8:08 pm, May 7 2013
Posts: 7


I believe that as humans we naturally resort to racial stereotypes and even just plain flat out negative portrayals when depicting people we know little about. Before charging anime and manga for being racist, I believe its better to look at ourselves and how we portray Asians for instance. In movies most Asians are portrayed as foreigners. The men are usually either martial artists, who usually act as teachers of the white male protagonist or their jealous rivals. If the males are not portrayed as martial artists, they will usually be shown as effeminate. If neither of these then they will most likely play the role of some foreign villain or just a villain in general. Have you ever noticed that in X-men movies, pretty much all the Asians there shown were villains. Women on the other hand are shown to why and weak individuals whose only role is to be the damsel in distress or the girl who inevitably ends up with the male protagonist such as the Karate Kid reboot and Drillbit Taylor. I guess it can be considered slightly offensive that some characters such as Chocolove have slightly bigger lips than normal, but honestly, I feel that pales in comparison to Americans portray Asians.

imercenary
Post #598032 - Reply to (#598031) by dae428
Member

8:22 pm, May 7 2013
Posts: 130


Quote from dae428
Before charging anime and manga for being racist, I believe its better to look at ourselves and how we portray Asians for instance. In movies most Asians are portrayed as foreigners.


Because Asians ARE foreigners?

This is becoming nothing more than a "rationalize Asian racism" thread.

dae428
Post #598033
Member

8:24 pm, May 7 2013
Posts: 7


I'm just saying that before we judge another culture, we should look at ourselves. Also last I checked, Asians also found in America too.

wolfinthesheep
Post #598034 - Reply to (#598031) by dae428
Member

8:27 pm, May 7 2013
Posts: 182


Quote from dae428
I believe that as humans we naturally resort to racial stereotypes and even just plain flat out negative portrayals when depicting people we know little about. Before charging anime and manga for being racist, I believe its better to look at ourselves and how we portray Asians for instance. In movie ...

For one, the treatment of women in Western and Eastern media are essentially the same. The difference being the "Yamato Nadeshiko" stereotype of a passive, elegant, domestic and supportive woman is seen as the female ideal in Japan, while in Western media it's seen an old-fashioned misogynistic portrayal.

About Asians, men being martial artists is not racist, it's either Hollywood trying to create their own Wuxia style films (something originating in China), or simply having an Action movie with an asian protagonist. Jason Statham and Jean Claude Van Damme are treated the same way as Jackie Chan or Jet Li...they solve problems with big martial arts beat downs, save the day, get the girl, etc.

There are plenty of bad Asian portrayals in western media, but you didn't name any of them. The real racist depictions are ones with emphasis on buckteeth and mispronounced R's and L's (for example, the Chinese restaurant in "A Christmas Story").

Skinny Kazoo
Post #598036
user avatar
Member

8:39 pm, May 7 2013
Posts: 146


Quote
I am well aware of Eyeshield 21. Let's examine both cases that I think you are talking about. One about Americans portrayal. Americans are not particular well like in the world, and Americans are not a race. Each country has a stereotype of Americans. The white coach was portrayed as racist to the black panther. Is that true? Possibly that is the reflection of reality. Where I live (Illinois) blacks has a 57x higher rate of getting arrested for the same minor nonviolent drug charge than whites despite the fact that the rate of usage is about the same. So to portrayed the white coach as racist is a reflection of reality. Notice not all of the white teammates are racist.

Let's look at Panther. I actually, I gonna wait until you point out something specific to me before I reply more carefully about Panther.


Where do I even start...first off I am not an idiot I know America is not a race and the way Americans are portrayed in this manga shows a lack of understanding of reality, or perhaps he was purposefully doing this

Okay, so I was not talking about the coach, nor does the crime rate for blacks in Illinois have anything to do with my post. Secondly, just because the coach's racism is a "reflection of reality" does not mean it is not racism.

However, I am not debating on the coach, I was merely referring to the ridiculous assertion that Panther was, because he's black, naturally faster. Based strictly on your first definition, this is racism. Refer to chapter 60 where it says something about the super jumping power of the black people...there is no possible way to argue that does not fit definition 1 of racism

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That3rdGuy
Post #598044
Piss Ant
Member

10:36 pm, May 7 2013
Posts: 149


I've seen many series that stereotype other races/ethnicities/nationalities. Depending on the content, it could be considered racist. I can't think of a good example right now. Kind of ruins my argument, but oh well. I've seen a few that would be considered racist that made me go "WTF?!" Not many, but there are some. Just had to toss in my 2 cents. roll eyes

EDIT: Oh, also I didn't read anyone's comments, only the topic. laugh

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switchgear
Post #598051 - Reply to (#597889) by movingstone
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12:05 am, May 8 2013
Posts: 215


Racism in sports is well documented. The NFL takes the best players regardless of race (at least these days). It is all a matter of demographics playing sports. I don't know how popular American Football is in Asia, but I don't think it is that popular and if it is not that popular than the best athletes will naturally play a different sport like baseball or soccer over football and thus the quality of players decreases. IN Canada the most popular sport is hockey so our best athletes tend to play hockey and thus we have a small representation in the NFL and NBA. Your example for sports is a poor example to use.

Are you kidding me with sexism not being as blatant in Manga and Anime as compared to American comics? You can't be serious. You have it completely backwards. Sexism is way more blatant and in your face in manga, especially shounen with panty shots everywhere, the harem genre as a genre is to say enough, all the girls that are simply there to get accidentally fondled, stripped and abused. Even when it is not harmen or ecchi characters in armour generally wear armour that prioritizes sexuality over practically (Erza, from Fairy Tail). That is not to say Western comics and media are not guilty of the same thing, but to ignore how prevalent it is in manga and anime is just ignorant.

Misconceptions are the cornerstone of racism. Drawing characters based on stereotypes and then blowing those stereotypes up is racist. Sometimes characters are done like that on purpose to make a point but when it is done as a misunderstanding it is racism. Just because you don't know better is not an excuse and does not wipe away the fact that it is racist. Those people who cry racist for things like Bee though are probably just being stupid, but to say that racism does not exist in all manga and anime is just as stupid. It might not be rampant in the media, but it does exist as it does in all other areas of the world. Sexism is much more prevalent than racism. Manga artist, particularly those in shounen and shoujo genres are a lot more liberal than the rest of Japanese society (especially the older generations) and. At the same time though you still get manga that adapt Mein Kampf and adapting that book is both racist and even if you want to argue it is not, it is in very bad taste and judgement.

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imercenary
Post #598058 - Reply to (#598034) by wolfinthesheep
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12:58 am, May 8 2013
Posts: 130


Quote from dae428
I'm just saying that before we judge another culture, we should look at ourselves. Also last I checked, Asians also found in America too.


Yeah and? Africans, Americans and Britons are found in Japan too. Where are the manga portraying them in a non-racist manner? Not all Africans are excellent marathon runners, not all Americans are culturally ignorant and not all Britons are Victorian-style mannered people.

Hollywood may be racist, but its NOWHERE near as bad as Japanese anime/manga/entertainment. Just because I'm standing knee-deep in my own shit doesn't mean I should ignore the guy up to his neck is shit.

dae428
Post #598067 - Reply to (#598058) by imercenary
Member

3:22 am, May 8 2013
Posts: 7


Quote from imercenary
Yeah and? Africans, Americans and Britons are found in Japan too. Where are the manga portraying them in a non-racist manner? Not all Africans are excellent marathon runners, not all Americans are culturally ignorant and not all Britons are Victorian-style mannered people.

Hollywood may be racis ...


I'm just saying that racism is everywhere and to look at a one particular medium and judge it as being racist isn't really all that different from taking a glass and dipping it in the ocean and expecting there to be fresh water in the cup. Also, you should also know that the Japan has a primarily homogeneous population. To see a black guy in Japan isn't really all that common. I guess I am rationalizing Asian stereotypes in this sense, but that doesn't mean I'm saying its alright. I'm not trying to be a troll or start a flame war with you. I'm just trying to say what I feel on the subject. If I've offended you I apologize. That was not my intent.

I'm not going to lie I'm and Asian guy and when I see Asian racism in movies and cartoons it irks me a bit, so perhaps I may have exaggerated when I said racism in Hollywood movies are far greater than racism in manga and anime. However I do believe that racism in anime and manga is not really so bad that it should be emphasized to such a degree as you had mentioned. Unless its sports manga/anime... That's a whole 'nother story.

Suxinn
Post #598079
user avatar
Member

4:16 am, May 8 2013
Posts: 280


This argument is insanely convoluted, and I am not quite sure what OP is trying to say...

But, if the argument is that anime/manga is racist against white people, then I would of course say no. They might be insanely xenophobic at times, yes. Prejudiced, yes. Discriminatory, yes. But racist? No.

Racism is defined by most sociologists as, in a nutshell, prejudice + power. And by power, I don't mean physical power, I mean societal/institutional power that has the right to take away your rights, culture, etc.

And, while it is true that the Japanese is the majority in Japan, and they have power within their own society, on a global scale, whites still dominate as those with the most structural power. (There's a whole lot of evidence I can use to back this, which I don't want to get into now, but just google and you can probably find a ton of academic papers on it.)

It's a fine distinction, I know, but I feel that it is important that it should be made. Anime/manga may seem to be prejudiced against non-Asians (or anyone non-Japanese, actually; the Chinese usually aren't portrayed all that well either)... But when it's against westerners? No, it's not racism. It's just prejudice. The mild slights against westerners in anime/manga does not amount to the same as the major slights that westerners have committed (and are still committing) against non-white populations as a whole.

Just my two cents.

(Also, remember, I'm speaking of this on a global scale, as I'm sure most of us here are not from or currently living in Japan. If you are in Japan, and you are talking about prejudice directed at you specifically in that context, then, yes, it's racism. However, if we're talking about anime/manga generally, and in a setting in which people not living in Japan can access it, then, no, it's not racism.)

edit: Oh, but if we're talking about poor portrayals of non-white people, such as the Chinese, Koreans, Africans, etc., then, yeah, that is more than a bit racist. Though rarely, I think, do those groups even appear in Japanese media, so I guess it's more of a lack of representation and marginalization, which is also problematic. But this is all a whole other can of worms, so I'm going to just stop here.

imercenary
Post #598084 - Reply to (#598067) by dae428
Member

5:42 am, May 8 2013
Posts: 130


Quote from dae428
I'm just saying that racism is everywhere and to look at a one particular medium and judge it as being racist isn't really all that different from taking a glass and dipping it in the ocean and expecting there to be fresh water in the cup. Also, you should also know that the Japan has a primarily ...


This is a manga site. Talking about movies is already a stretch as it is.

I'm not sure what your point is other than you seem to be making yourself out to be a hypocrite. You say that Asian stereotyping is not alright, but when I bring up the stereotyping of African, Americans and Britons; your response is that I should ignore it because thats how the whole system works? You're basically claiming that Japan is fundamentally discriminatory and that racism in manga/anime is nothing more than a symptom.

Last edited by imercenary at 5:58 am, May 8

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