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Kaioh
Post #542834 - Reply to (#541822) by xtr3m3dude
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7:20 am, Mar 30 2012
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Quote from xtr3m3dude
Religion is offensive to logic.

Brilliantly stated.

I am a Humanist.

I believe the idea of God and/or Gods/Goddesses makes for interesting stories, but I do not believe in them.

As stated by Mr. Stephen Hawking; "Science makes God irrelevant".

That said, I also believe its up to each individual to find what they believe in, and I feel its necessary to not descriminate against others for their beliefs.

I am a Humanist. My brother is a LaVeyan Satanist. My best friend is a Wiccan.

Individualism is what truely makes us wonderful. The ability to see and understand that we're different and accept that and just be.


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Post #542839 - Reply to (#542834) by Kaioh
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8:15 am, Mar 30 2012
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Quote from Kaioh
Brilliantly stated.

I am a Humanist.

I believe the idea of God and/or Gods/Goddesses makes for interesting stories, but I do not believe in them.

As stated by Mr. Stephen Hawking; "Science makes God irrelevant".

That said, I also believe its up to each individual to find what they believ ...


I agree with you that ultimately it is up to each individual to choose for themselves what to believe in. However I also think that it should be up to every individual to look for the truth and question everything, instead of choosing to believe anything blindly. When I said that "religion is offensive to logic" I meant it literally and not as a random insult to religious people. It is human nature to ask questions and demand answers (which is why the ignorant and/or uneducated look to religion for explanations) and it should be up to the religious people to prove the existence of a god.

All religions without exception are ultimately based on the concept of faith (to believe blindly) and that is goes against logic. Sure you have a myriad of religious sacred texts and many religions claim that their particular text is the "literal word of God" but those claims amount to nothing without proof.

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheistgems/comments/jfkh7/stephen_ hawking_and_discovery_curiosity_did_god/

The reddit link has a nice collection of scientific documentaries that should be of benefit to everyone who is interested in good theories based on scientific observations of the known universe (and learning in general). Yes there is a limit to the knowledge humankind has acquired thus far and not every theory is fact, however the origin theories proposed by scientists are based on observations and logical deductions. Using the scientific method we have come up with pretty good idea (with a high degree of accuracy) of how the universe started. Currently the explanation of the universe doesn't require the presence of an omnipotent creator. Prior to the Big Bang there was no time for a creator to create the universe. Both space and time are byproducts of the Big Bang. Dr. Hawking explains pretty clearly in the video below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpb7NMR-XOo

There are very few physicists and astronomers (among other well read scientists) who are very religious for a reason (the same reason why close to all of them accept the Big Bang theory as the closest thing to fact we have). That reason is abundant evidence through observations and meticulous calculations. There are many, many scientific facts, theories and concepts and some of them truly are very difficult to even grasp, let alone accept (as they go against our daily reality - for example people thought the world was flat... but poor Galileo knew better because he saw for himself evidence to the contrary... and yet he was branded a heretic by religious fools). That is why the ignorant masses just choose the easy explanation: a god.

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Kaioh
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8:01 pm, Mar 30 2012
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All very true, and I agree. Yet it is also the right of each individual to believe whatever they want, whether anyone else says it is foolish or not. This is called free will, and it must be respected above all else. Opinions are by their very nature subjective, these include those on religion and politics.

I have also found its a much easier attitude to understand and accept people no matter their beliefs, than consistantly express to how foolish I feel it is to believe such things. It lessens the amount of conflict and stress I live with, and makes social interactions much less tense. Instead of raising ire over ones differences, accepting them is much easier.

I have to disagree, however, on one point. Human nature itself slightly varies by individual. Some, as you claim, seek truth and knowledge, others accept what they are told or are raised to believe. I personally disagree with raising some on a religion, as it goes against free will and instills your beliefs upon another unwillingly. But thats often how it is.

Your answer to human nature makes it seem like you're implying that the less intelligent or ignorants opinions are less valid than anyone elses, and they're not. Equality is part of being human, no matter what. Whether someone agrees with that opinion or not is a different matter.

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Seijurou
Post #542930
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9:28 pm, Mar 30 2012
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On earth, when you let go of a pen, it falls down. That is what I believe.

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Myuym
Post #542931 - Reply to (#542930) by Seijurou
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9:34 pm, Mar 30 2012
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Quote from Seijurou
On earth, when you let go of a pen, it falls down. That is what I believe.


Depends on where you let go of the pen, if you let go of the pen while underwater for example it might sink or it can float but I doubt it will fall. biggrin

Seijurou
Post #542933 - Reply to (#542931) by Myuym
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9:41 pm, Mar 30 2012
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Well, it wouldn't fly, just like water itself. Plus, sinking is just a slow fall. Besides:

earth:

1.
a. The land surface of the world.

land:

6.
a. An agricultural or farming area.

Last edited by Seijurou at 4:01 pm, Mar 31

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xtr3m3dude
Post #542982 - Reply to (#542914) by Kaioh
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4:46 am, Mar 31 2012
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Quote from Kaioh
All very true, and I agree. Yet it is also the right of each individual to believe whatever they want, whether anyone else says it is foolish or not. This is called free will, and it must be respected above all else. Opinions are by their very nature subjective, these include those on religion and politics.

Quote from Kaioh
Your answer to human nature makes it seem like you're implying that the less intelligent or ignorants opinions are less valid than anyone elses, and they're not.

I see what you are saying and I do agree free will must be respected no matter the cost. We don't want to become a dystopian society after all... I also understand that opinions are subjective beliefs, but I still believe some opinions have more worth than others.

Some people, for example believe or say that they can cure cancer with alternative medicine and yet their treatments are just not approved by the government agencies and their claims are refuted by medical science. This is just one example but the same argument can be made with many other situations. In the end the experts on any given topic are the educated people and scientific community who are able to back up their claims.

Quote from Kaioh
I have to disagree, however, on one point. Human nature itself slightly varies by individual. Some, as you claim, seek truth and knowledge, others accept what they are told or are raised to believe. I personally disagree with raising some on a religion, as it goes against free will and instills your beliefs upon another unwillingly. But thats often how it is.

I was not a philosophy major but human nature is related to many branches of science (sociology, psychology, etc...) and there are many different theories on human nature. People do have different personalities and not everyone conforms to a particular category, but I think that some generalizations can be made about humanity as a whole based on historical observations - different groups are always trying to kill each other for example. Therefore I also think it is safe to say that humanity is curious by nature - we constantly have and continue to develop our civilization and gain greater knowledge.

Quote from Kaioh
Equality is part of being human, no matter what. Whether someone agrees with that opinion or not is a different matter.

Actually we as individuals are not equal by any means (mentally or physically).
I am a proponent of equity over equality. We should not all get the same treatment.
(Equality example: providing same services to all public transport commuters.)
(Equity example: providing special services to people with disabilities.)

Again, I am not saying that everyone should conform to a single dystopian idea or reality. But at the same time I hope people would educate themselves and learn the theory of evolution and other scientific facts and theories which are based on an enormous amount of research and observations before they form an opinion on something important. In a perfect world everyone should be free to choose what they believe in once they have looked at an issue from all sides (sadly many religious folks are raised that way and robbed of that choice).

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Kaioh
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6:07 am, Mar 31 2012
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Because of the fact that opinions are subjective, there are none that are perfectly right or perfectly wrong, thusly, they all carry the same worth and validity. So, I have to disagree with you on that one.

As far as I can tell, we weren't discussing medical treatments or the scientific community as a whole, we were discussing opinions, the subjectivity of them, and their worth.

Education doesn't determine what someone is an expert in. I have seen people less intelligent than I be experts in various fields.

I don't think its far to cast judgements on folks just because they fall in to categories. When you start doing that, its easy to forget that they're people.

Even though you claim to be a proponent of free will, you also claim that people are not equals. You claim you do not want to the world to become some dystopian society, but your claims of equity over equality are exactly what lead to such things. Equality is what matters. If someone gets the same oppertunities as others, then its up to them to choose what to do. Choice is one of the very foundations of free will. Equity doesn't grant that, and thereby limits choice.

I see you're point in regards to knowledge, but I completely disagree. I could care less if someone looks at a situation from all sides. Thats their choice to make, not mine. If they want to form a basis of opinion based on very little research, or a lot of research, thats their choice, and as an individual who believes in free will, I respect that. I disagree with it, yes, but its still not my choice to make.

Your opinion disregards that choice, so I must disagree with it. However, it is your choice to make, not mine, so I accept it as it is, because you made it, not me.

Whether you know it or not, you are stating what you claim you're not. You say you do not want people to conform, but telling them they have to do X amount of research to form a valid opinion on something is conformity.

Also, the idea of "perfect" is as fictional as I believe Gods to be. Perfect is an ideal that has no basis in reality, because there is no such thing as perfect. Of course, that is also an opinion.

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7:05 am, Mar 31 2012
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I must disagree with the masses here, as I believe in A God and only one at that. Yes I was raised in a religious home with religious friends but I do not belong to a religion. I belong to a God, a loving powerful dude up there. However, I have looked at all the aspects of a 'religion' and any one who wants to be part of one can be for it is what they believe. Anyone can chose to follow what they believe and that's how we got a pretty cool country.

I have researched about the Evolutionary theory and still think its impossible to be created randomly like that. This is my truth as that was yours, but our truths contradict each others making eithor one false. This does not mean that they are false it just means its true to you as mine is true to me. Every one does have their own oppinion and should not be pushed onto others.

Just because we (religious children) were raised in a religion and knowing no different doesn't mean it was forced on us, it only means we decided from an early age to believe in something. And I would not want to live any other way. Logical or illogical, age or education, these have nothing to do with it, as worldly standers say I am still young and unwise but I am sure of my future and my beliefs and that is smart to me.

Archeologists actually use the Bible to find things and surpisingly it's worked. The Bible has also been around for quite a long time. In every civilization and every country there has been some sort of religion, just sayin.

One last thing to say to the person posting that we ( religious people) are ignorant for having faith and not believing scientific facts(which cannot be perfect, because nothing is perfect, thus not completely true.) we think that you are ignorant for not believing in a God and instead believing in science (What man made and thought up.) eyes

Oh my gosh I completely forgot to post this but I'm Christian!!!!!! Used to be a Mormon when I was younger but my parents converted so I did too. Most of my relatives are Mormon. But I like being Christian we got cool music like Lecrae and family force 5 and alot of others I love we rock!!!!!!

All y'all other people rock too I love you and so does the Whomever of you religion.!!!!!!

Last edited by blakraven66 at 8:57 am, Mar 31

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Seijurou
Post #543058 - Reply to (#542996) by Epic.Manga
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Quote from Epic.Manga
Just because we (religious children) were raised in a religion and knowing no different doesn't mean it was forced on us, it only means we decided from an early age to believe in something.

Too bad the age-of-consent law doesn't work that way.

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Kaioh
Post #543122 - Reply to (#542996) by Epic.Manga
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9:20 pm, Mar 31 2012
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Quote from Epic.Manga
I must disagree with the masses here, as I believe in A God and only one at that. Yes I was raised in a religious home with religious friends but I do not belong to a religion. I belong to a God, a loving powerful dude up there. However, I have looked at all the aspects of a 'religion' and any one who wants to be part of one can be for it is what they believe. Anyone can chose to follow what they believe and that's how we got a pretty cool country.

I have researched about the Evolutionary theory and still think its impossible to be created randomly like that. This is my truth as that was yours, but our truths contradict each others making eithor one false. This does not mean that they are false it just means its true to you as mine is true to me. Every one does have their own oppinion and should not be pushed onto others.

Just because we (religious children) were raised in a religion and knowing no different doesn't mean it was forced on us, it only means we decided from an early age to believe in something. And I would not want to live any other way. Logical or illogical, age or education, these have nothing to do with it, as worldly standers say I am still young and unwise but I am sure of my future and my beliefs and that is smart to me.

Archeologists actually use the Bible to find things and surpisingly it's worked. The Bible has also been around for quite a long time. In every civilization and every country there has been some sort of religion, just sayin.

One last thing to say to the person posting that we ( religious people) are ignorant for having faith and not believing scientific facts(which cannot be perfect, because nothing is perfect, thus not completely true.) we think that you are ignorant for not believing in a God and instead believing in science (What man made and thought up.) eyes

Oh my gosh I completely forgot to post this but I'm Christian!!!!!! Used to be a Mormon when I was younger but my parents converted so I did too. Most of my relatives are Mormon. But I like being Christian we got cool music like Lecrae and family force 5 and alot of others I love we rock!!!!!!

All y'all other people rock too I love you and so does the Whomever of you religion.!!!!!!

Being raised in a religious home is nothing short of indoctrination. Like you stated at the end of your post, you converted religions. Thats a perfect example of it. You're family decided based on whatever logic they have that the religion they believed in wasn't good enough, so they switched to one they thought was good. You went right along with them. Thats called being indoctrinated, and a lot of religious people suffer that.

Science wasn't created by man. It existed before humanity did. The theory of evolution has been proven true, as we've seen it in various species around the world, happening before our very eyes. Humanity will evolve someday, too. Although I have very little doubts in my mind religious people will claim its some sort of "gift from God", instead of seeing it for what it really is. But, again, thats your choice, not mine.

Religious people are going to be extremely angry when Stephen Hawking finishes his Theory of Everything. It will, as a side effect, probably disprove Gods existence.

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xtr3m3dude
Post #543191 - Reply to (#543122) by Kaioh
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2:52 am, Apr 1 2012
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Quote from Kaioh
Religious people are going to be extremely angry when Stephen Hawking finishes his Theory of Everything. It will, as a side effect, probably disprove Gods existence.

He already proved beyond a reasonable doubt, using the laws of the universe, that God does not exist. Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpb7NMR-XOo
Also, if by "theory of everything" you are referring to string theory, it's not just his theory.
Quote from Kaioh
Because of the fact that opinions are subjective, there are none that are perfectly right or perfectly wrong, thusly, they all carry the same worth and validity. So, I have to disagree with you on that one.

I am not sure you understand what an opinion is. Opinions can be and often are wrong. An opinion is a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion)

There are many cases where no opinion is "correct", such as a person's political affiliation.
But there are also many cases where an opinion is false (believing the Earth is flat).

Since in this thread we were discussing religion and by extension and creationism, I think it is important to also look at and understand what a scientific opinion is. A "scientific opinion" is the general opinion of a professional scientific body gained through extensive research with a reproducible, unbiased conclusion soundly based upon the facts derived from the experiment.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion#Scientific_opinion)
That is quite different from a religious (creationist) opinion which is based on faith.

Quote from Kaioh
Thats their choice to make, not mine. If they want to form a basis of opinion based on very little research, or a lot of research, thats their choice, and as an individual who believes in free will, I respect that. I disagree with it, yes, but its still not my choice to make.

Yeah I understand that this is free will and we should accept that people will made their own choices regardless of whether or not they are informed. That's why I said "in a perfect world", I know very well it is an unachievable ideal. While we are on the topic of ideals, I can't understand how you believe everyone in the world is equal. The reality is that people are not equal, not even in communist regimes. If everyone was "equal" we would have some sort of dystopian society where everyone was treated the same way, wore the same clothes, ate the same food, etc... People would lose their identities.

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Post #543195 - Reply to (#542996) by Epic.Manga
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Quote from Epic.Manga
Yes I was raised in a religious home with religious friends but I do not belong to a religion.

Quote from Epic.Manga
Oh my gosh I completely forgot to post this but I'm Christian!!!!!! Used to be a Mormon when I was younger but my parents converted so I did too.

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Post #543196 - Reply to (#543122) by Kaioh
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3:52 am, Apr 1 2012
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Being raised in a religious home is nothing short of indoctrination.


You are stating here that if a parent shares his or her beliefs with his or her children, then that child has been indoctrinated. You seem to be underestimating the children, who are perfectly capable of making their own decisions as they grow. For example, parents "indoctrinate" their children into believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. As children grow, they shed these beliefs because their observations in the real world do not square with what their parents have taught them.

Additionally, by your logic, all children are indoctrinated. After all, telling your children that "killing is wrong," and "you shouldn't tear your sisters hair out," and "If strange men offer you candy, don't accept it, and call for help!" is a sort of indoctrination. After all, they are making fact statements about ultimate reality (what is wrong and right, what should not be done, what we should believe). If they choose to share their parents' beliefs, that is their responsibility. Please don't brush Christianity away with such fragile logic. I feel like it's an insult to intellectualism.

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Science wasn't created by man. It existed before humanity did.


By what logic do you make that assertion? The statement in itself is philosophical and just as wishy-washy as "God created the universe in seven days."

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The theory of evolution has been proven true, as we've seen it in various species around the world


You are correct. MICRO-EVOLUTION, the evolution that occurs when species change, evolve, and improve, has been documented multiple times. However, we have never once documented a single case of a species (for example, apes) changing into another, distinctly separate species.

Claiming that macro-evolution is true because micro-evolution is true is like claiming that because Ernest Hemingway was a drunkard, every famous writer indulges in drink. You're taking a single, specific observation and applying it to everything.

Additionally, the Theory of Evolution hinges upon the great question of HOW IT ALL STARTED. Scientists themselves admit that, although they can trace the evolution of the world back to a microsecond before the world "began," they have no idea what "set off" the reaction that set into motion the beginning of the universe. They have theorized that (and I simplify this greatly) particles formed (out of the vast nothingness) and collided (in the vast nothingness) and exploded (into the vast nothingness) to create EVERYTHING.

I'm sorry, but you'll have to forgive me for saying that idea seems even more preposterous to me than the idea of an omnipotent creator setting everything in motion. In addition, the logistics of the evolution of the first complex organism are hilarious to me.

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Humanity will evolve someday, too. Although I have very little doubts in my mind religious people will claim its some sort of "gift from God", instead of seeing it for what it really is.


This statement is philosophical in nature (it cannot be scientifically proven) and is based just as much on blind faith as the beliefs of the average Christian, (which should not be; Christianity was never meant to be based on BLIND faith. There's a difference between jumping off a cliff and believing that God will catch you and taking a deep breath before stepping onto a rickety bridge.

Everyone operates in this world by faith. You believe when you sit down that your chair will hold your weight, for example.

Quote
Religious people are going to be extremely angry when Stephen Hawking finishes his Theory of Everything. It will, as a side effect, probably disprove Gods existence.


Stephen Hawking is an eminently intelligent and respectable man. However, if you look just a little ways back, he's eaten his own words. First, his theories allowed for a creator, but then he "discovered" that a creator was unlikely. "Science" though it may be, he has proven himself wrong once.

I apologize if I seem a little brusque. I don't claim to own even a single drop in the sea of knowledge related to these fields (there's far too much to know), but I just find it amusing that people seem intent to take the moral high ground when they, themselves, are making ridiculous philosophical assumptions without proper knowledge of their own field.

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I believe in Onix, the bane of my soul.

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