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Why Manga Reader Sites Are Not Okay

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Arigatomina
Post #576736 - Reply to (#576386) by renseih
Member

7:59 am, Nov 12 2012
Posts: 32


Quote from renseih
It's not as if you'd loose money since the scans are free to begin with. And I don't see any organization or whatever actively taking down unlicensed mangas.

Two points: Scans are not free. Unless the scanner stole that book from the store shelf, he or she had to buy it in order to scan it. I can't speak for other scanlators, but I pay a lot of money for the books I scanlate, and I often ruin those books in order to scan them. When you do good scans of a book, you're throwing away the resale value of that book. And Libre is one company that actively went about taking down manga that were not licensed in the US and probably never will be licensed in English anywhere in the world. Some of those one-shots were only published in multi-artist magazines which aren't even available for sale in Japan. It makes no difference whether the manga has been licensed outside of Japan or not. If you're sharing it and they feel like putting forth the effort to stop you, they'll do so.

To the original poster:

Love the pics, sympathize with them completely, and wish leechers were considerate enough to sympathize as well. Unfortunately I'm pessimistic and don't see it happening. All you can do is encourage your fanbase to share your hatred of the online reader sites. Lock your doors, make it a little harder for outsiders to get your stuff, and be very vocal about why you're doing it so your fans know who to resent. Forget about getting new fans because they're not worth it. Scanlate for your trusted few and let the rest go scanlate their own versions of the book if they can't read Japanese. You won't be well known and you won't get tons of "thank you" one-liners, but the few thanks you do get will be sincere and you'll know you're not putting money into the pockets of the biggest (and wealthiest) leeches in the scanlation hobby. You know, the ones who don't care if they personally kill the hobby because they're not investing anything in exchange for all the money they're making selling stolen property.

To the copyright debaters:

Even if we concede that everyone involved is a thief, there's only one person selling that stolen property in multiple venues so that when one is closed they can resume business elsewhere without hurting their misbegotten profits. This is not a "we're all black, you stupid kettle" issue, it's a "shoplifting vs organized crime" issue. That's why those sites will get fines and sentences, while scanlators just get an impersonal C&D email.

To the mangareader defenders:

At least pretend you feel sorry for the scanlators whose work makes those sites so appealing to you. Let them go on pretending most readers are not contemptuous leeches. Why throw it in their face? They already know you don't care. They know they're taken for granted by all the self-entitled kids who think clicking a few buttons requires too much effort. They're asking that you reassure them that you are worth all the trouble they go through in order to make manga readable to people like you. Instead you spit in their face? You might as well tell them there's no point scanlating for the current generation. I honestly don't know why scanlators bother. These sites haven't just made the hobby a thousand times more public and dangerous, they've turned the fans against the scanlators. You might be licking the hand that feeds you, but you're also urinating on the people cooking and packaging it for you. Be careful or scanlators will wise up and start tainting the food the same way some guys in the kitchen at MickeyD's do. User Posted Image

tofu863
Post #576741
Member

9:10 am, Nov 12 2012
Posts: 1


Hmm, to stop mangareader sites getting revenue from ads, what about just blacklisting the sites on your adblock?

azoburn
Post #576768
Member

5:47 pm, Nov 12 2012
Posts: 13


From a reader point of view, i am aware of the issues faced by the scanlators. and i am not newbies kids who are too lazy to click a few more buttons. I have been using mangaupdates for more than 10 years so you can guess that i am now a working adults. normally i would download, unless it's takes too much time. and i don't use mangafox!

for those who keep on demonize that reader who use online manga reader are ungrateful asshole, mind if i ask how old are u? if u are an adults like me, u would know that your free time are shrinking as ur times are getting filled with works, friends, family, etc. everyone would like to do something quick and fast. what is wrong with that? you are just like telling me that i should not buy orange juice from supermarket and instead, i should be squeezing the juice from the fresh orange whenever i wanted to have a glass of orange juice. what a nonsense!

Mind if i ask why scanlators wanted to waste the time of their fans by asking them to click here and there, login here and there? why cant they just show the direct link to the manga on the front pages? and since the trend have already move to online reading, then why don't scanlators provide it on their own website instead of bitching about it? if you are making it harder to get your scanlations, guess what? real fans will be troubled, and the real fans number using your website will drop. as for money maker, well, since they gonna earn money, will they be troubled to waste their time so that they can get it? the most, they will hire some kids to do it for them.

I would be glad to read the manga on scanlators own website or download it when the link are on the front page. but when i am required to waste 10 min of my time to login into forums and look for the manga donwload link for 1 release, sorry bitches, off to mangareader site i go. I'm following over 100 title and its still increasing. there are no way that i am gonna create a few hundreds or thousand forum profiles.

I appreciate all scanlators efforts to bring manga to fans. but i don't like to be treated like dirt and to be subjected to inefficient and outdated ways. Learn to be efficient and upgrade your internet skill. Appreciate and please your fans and in return they will do the same.

randomreader
Post #576770
Member

6:43 pm, Nov 12 2012
Posts: 100


i absolutely hate downloading crap to read it- and most of the time when im trying to read a series the scanlators site doesnt have an online reader and they dont bother to put it on batoto.

i love scanlators. they are just cool generous people and if it wasnt for them we would all be fucked- but a lot of them are either lazy or dont know what theyre doing when it comes to distribution; reader sites are completely necessary.

apart from advertising bullcrap and other junk that every website does- the main problem i see people complaining about with reader sites are the lack of credits- but honestly i dont think ive ever read a manga that had its credit pages removed. i have just never seen it.


like azoburn said- the average reader wants convenience; if you make your site a pain in the ass to use, or make us jump through hoops, or just dont have the sense to use an online reader- then sorry, we're gonna go to mangafox or mangahere or one of the dozens of other sites who actually have the right idea

Last edited by randomreader at 6:52 pm, Nov 12

gwkimmy
Post #576771
:D
Member

7:02 pm, Nov 12 2012
Posts: 276


azoburn: 90% of the scanlators i'm familiar with, at least, will put a link right on their front page for every new release. it's been awhile since i've come across a scanlator that doesn't put a direct download link or a direct link to reading the chapter online on their site. it's super easy to come to MU for new releases, click on the scanlator's name, and then click on their website to dl from there. i only ever read online for new series i pick up, but after that i dl all new releases.

randomreader: have you tried CDisplay? easiest thing to use on the planet, no zooming necessary and the picture quality is infinitely better than that on display sites, bar batoto.

only time where i've come across a problem with downloading manga is when the manga is licensed in the US, and for good reason.

i do think that aggregator sites are a huge problem, but i don't think it's an issue that will be solved soon. thankfully we have sites like batoto to counter it, and also i think some publishing sites are wisening up and trying to adapt by making their own online readers that you pay a small fee for.

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randomreader
Post #576772 - Reply to (#576771) by gwkimmy
Member

7:16 pm, Nov 12 2012
Posts: 100


the whole process is just a pain. installing software then going around downloading and wasting time i want to read something- the whole thing is just an unneccessary chore; say what you will but i just prefer online readers.

(not to mention im a guy who reads a lot of romcoms and shounen-ai and do not want to risk my friends finding it)

Blique
Post #576774
user avatar
 Member

7:21 pm, Nov 12 2012
Posts: 985


As part of a scanlation group, my views: If I'm scanlating it, it's typically because I love it so much that I want to spread it to others. So when manga reader sites grab it and put it up, I'm glad because it means more exposure. I'm also fine with how the sites get money, because in a way, they helped by spreading it to others, which was my goal.

However, I don't like when manga reader sites spread it around when the scanlators say not to. That's just plain disrespectful. But I don't think anything would stop them short of thorough legal action from the licensing companies.

The best course of action is to provide a direct link between the original creator and the readers, cutting out any middleman profits. That can be done with webcomics (see Odd Squad Scanlations's handling of Cheese in the Trap and other webcomics), but unless traditional mangaka step into the internet, I don't know how to connect them with overseas readers. Maybe in the future...

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azoburn
Post #576777
Member

7:56 pm, Nov 12 2012
Posts: 13


gwkimmy,
i am aware that lots of scanlators website provide direct download link. in fact nowadays, they even provide online reader link such as their own or batoto. and that is the correct and positive move to combat against ppl who are abusing scanlations like mangafox and tazmo.

I am only pissed when reader are been accused for choosing the "easy" way, while the scanlators are making it "hard" for the reader, which in fact due to scanlators own inabilities to keep up with current internet trend.

I am not saying that IRC or forum based should just die off but please be considerate to the readers by adding more distribution channel such as torrent, file hosting download and online reading too so as to be relevant in accordance to current internet trend. Instead of limiting ways for reader to get their manga, why not provide the reader with various way to get their manga fix. Let them choose it on official scanlators website.

bhui
Post #576794 - Reply to (#576736) by Arigatomina
Member

11:21 pm, Nov 12 2012
Posts: 21


Quote from Arigatomina
Two points: Scans are not free. Unless the scanner stole that book from the store shelf, he or she had to buy it in order to scan it. I can't speak for other scanlators, but I pay a lot of money for the books I scanlate, and I often ruin those books in order to scan them. When you do good scans of a book, you're throwing away the resale value of that book.


This is immaterial. The Scanlator does not have any distribution rights to copies, translated Versions, edited Versions, etc.

Quote from Arigatomina
And Libre is one company that actively went about taking down manga that were not licensed in the US and probably never will be licensed in English anywhere in the world. Some of those one-shots were only published in multi-artist magazines which aren't even available for sale in Japan. It makes no difference whether the manga has been licensed outside of Japan or not. If you're sharing it and they feel like putting forth the effort to stop you, they'll do so.


They have every right to do that.

Somebody could always buy the English Distribution & Translation Rights, as long as they are willing to sell them. (But they are probably willing, otherwise they would not bother.) If the Licensing-Price is low enough is a entirely Different Matter.

About the Archiving:
Japanese Fans hopefully archive their Stuff.

Regarding Scanlations: Remember that "PRIVATELY SHARED" Scanlations between PERSONAL Friends would still work theoretically.

Quote from Arigatomina
To the original poster:

Love the pics, sympathize with them completely, and wish leechers were considerate enough to sympathize as well. Unfortunately I'm pessimistic and don't see it happening. All you can do is encourage your fanbase to share your hatred of the online reader sites. Lock your doors, make it a little harder for outsiders to get your stuff, and be very vocal about why you're doing it so your fans know who to resent. Forget about getting new fans because they're not worth it. Scanlate for your trusted few and let the rest go scanlate their own versions of the book if they can't read Japanese. You won't be well known and you won't get tons of "thank you" one-liners, but the few thanks you do get will be sincere and you'll know you're not putting money into the pockets of the biggest (and wealthiest) leeches in the scanlation hobby. You know, the ones who don't care if they personally kill the hobby because they're not investing anything in exchange for all the money they're making selling stolen property.

Unless he keeps a tight grip on it, this will not work to deter Manga-Reader-Sites if the Series is popular enough. Additionally he had no Distribution Rights in the First Place so he can not send Takedown-Notices to Manga-Reader-Sites.

Quote from Arigatomina
To the copyright debaters:

Even if we concede that everyone involved is a thief, there's only one person selling that stolen property in multiple venues so that when one is closed they can resume business elsewhere without hurting their misbegotten profits. This is not a "we're all black, you stupid kettle" issue, it's a "shoplifting vs organized crime" issue. That's why those sites will get fines and sentences, while scanlators just get an impersonal C&D email.

Don't boil it down that way. The Issue of Commercial Copyright Violation was also Addressed.

"Everyone violates Copyright Law." does still hold.

They could also sue every Scanlator they could get ahold of, if they think it's worth it.

Sueing Aggregator sites is more economical and easier. Plus they have money.

Quote from Arigatomina
To the mangareader defenders:

At least pretend you feel sorry for the scanlators whose work makes those sites so appealing to you. Let them go on pretending most readers are not contemptuous leeches. Why throw it in their face? They already know you don't care. They know they're taken for granted by all the self-entitled kids who think clicking a few buttons requires too much effort. They're asking that you reassure them that you are worth all the trouble they go through in order to make manga readable to people like you. Instead you spit in their face? You might as well tell them there's no point scanlating for the current generation. I honestly don't know why scanlators bother. These sites haven't just made the hobby a thousand times more public and dangerous, they've turned the fans against the scanlators. You might be licking the hand that feeds you, but you're also urinating on the people cooking and packaging it for you. Be careful or scanlators will wise up and start tainting the food the same way some guys in the kitchen at MickeyD's do.

As I mentioned above: The Publicity of the Manga-Reader-Sites is the Main-Reason why Scanlators are irked by them.

I think this Trend began with Manga Stream. Who put out the first releases and therefore were used on every Manga-Reader-Site. This made them a prime Target for the Rights-Holders.

Now a lot of Scanlators try to enforce a 24hour Ban on Manga-Reader-Sites to avoid being the most Prominent Scanlator accross many Manga-Reader-Sites. Therefore hopefully avoiding the Wrath of the Rights Holders.


juls91
Post #576804
user avatar
:D
Member

12:24 am, Nov 13 2012
Posts: 707


Sometimes online readers make it easier to find the manga. You just dont want to go through a process just to read something that might take you even less time than finding it. There are things the scanlators ask like creating accounts, post 100 times (exaggerating much lol) and so on. Just to dl some chapter or w/e. AND EVEN SO , i still do all that. I don't complain cause sometimes even scanlators go all "well $uck it" and i never ever share the works , cz i don't care for other people to read it, i want to read it myself and thats it. The good point on dl is that you don't have to wait for the next page to load

I use online readers cause they exist and i don't pay for that, and is faster to find. I usderstand the scanlators point, why manga readers are not ok, but based on what i've experienced before, they sometimes push us to use them, i've been kicked from scanlating sites for what? For following the rules
And sometimes is just too much, when all you want to do is read and enjoy it...

I don't know what the solution is. i'm just glad i have access to it and i even thank the scanlators for the hard work. And when i get the chance to travel i buy the manga, but besides that, what?

________________
"ITs so warm that, Before the snow has a chance to stick, He melts it for me."
... little things are the ones that still keeps me from giving up
Nani0918
Post #576806
user avatar
Member

1:28 am, Nov 13 2012
Posts: 18


The point of copyright shouldn't be even mentioned anymore. Everybody's violating the laws. This has been repeated over and over already.

As one of the replies has said, most groups have links on their sites. So go pay them a visit and make new friends.

Some scanlators require lots and lots of contribution from readers and honestly, it does get tiring. I've been reading mangas for at least 20 years. Imagine how many scanlating groups I've come across. seriously do not have the time, or the brain cells to remember to contribute in the community of the hundreds groups/ forums I join, in order to read all the mangas I wanted. I do think the group has the right to be seclusive and I hold no grudge against them (just a little bit sad because I really don't have time to join all the communities).

And what do I do? Does that mean my only option is online readers? There are more ways to get a chapter than online readers. People who don't know how to do it can learn how to do it. People who don't want to learn are just plain lazy. What irks me is that people don't even remember the reality for these scanlating groups. There are people who spend their time (I dont want to mention money here), juggling between real life and scanlation, in order to spread their favorite mangas and authors to the rest of the online world, yet there are still spitting words about not being easy to access to. If you don't want to do some homework and spend a little time to get what you want, then don't. Nothing is for free and all you have to spent is a little of your time, for yourself, and you don't even want to do that. You want everything to serve on a silver plate with maid spoon-feeding you. I'm sorry, that just gets to me.

But that doesn't mean I stop going to the groups' site to get the scans. I'm still going to each site to download their works, still drop thank you notes, and I have more time to read mangas because I don't have to wait for these pages to load (because they take forever with all of the ads).

And to someone who mentioned that the groups are too lazy to put their stuffs on online readers, we don't do that because:

a. The Online Readers' octopus arms will grab our stuffs and put it there anyway. Nothing we can do to stop them.

b. It's a lot of work to do the scanlation already. If we miss the release, you can contact us and offer to support the releasing and uploading on Batoto, instead of complaining, because that's just rude.


HumanoidInterface
Post #576810
user avatar
Urabe is not happy
Member

2:27 am, Nov 13 2012
Posts: 88


I would like to interject just to say that scanlators that use ad revenue redirects and revenue sharing file hosts are just as bad.

Oh, and by the way, Batoto is also wrong. You shouldn't be getting payed for something you don't own in the first place. If you were just posting a text translation and they were re-posting it, it would be a different story. Not just batoto actually, I don't use any online readers.

Scanlation is in a sorry state, sadly it will not change in the foreseeable future.

So, until scanlators stop using shitty file hosts and ad redirects, I will use share sites and de-adfly (oh, and adblock plus, but I'd use it anyway). Unless; of course, they have an IRC channel. I will gladly visit a scanlator's IRC channel in order to download, and if they actually talk I will add it to my autojoin list.

PS: I am a scanlator, so the whole "you don't know how much work we do" argument is moot.

Kitteh_13
Post #576814
user avatar
Member

2:59 am, Nov 13 2012
Posts: 749


Ugh, this again. So many points to go over.

Scanlators
Get your head out of your bum and really think about what you are doing.
You are doing this for the fans so everyone has the ability to read it. Point. Blank.
If you are doing it for recognition or money just step aside, and someone else will pick up the project. Having worked for a scanlation group, this was an understood term and the group worked really well.

Manga Reader Sites
Manga reader sites that have membership fees are appalling and down right dirty. I think everyone can agree with this.
Sites that get revenue from ads, mmm, okay. You have to understand that it must take a lot of money not only to HOST all of these graphics, but upkeep them.
I really like some that are transparent with their funds and rely on donations. AKA that one amazing site where you can download AND read online. (I'd mention the name but I don't think I'm allowed)

Fans
It really comes down to the fans and the readers.
As a fan, I want to be able to read a series quickly and efficiently.
Some scanlators make me jump through a million hoops to get what I want. This usually lends me resenting certain scanlators. - Cough- *Midnight Scans* -Cough-

Let's get this straight:
I don't want to use MIRC.
I don't want to join your stupid forum.
I don't want to make 15 trivial posts that fake caring in a dead forum.
I don't want to praise you to receive a password the next day.

When scanlators DO these things it makes me vengeful and I purposefully break their "Rules" just because they made me jump through so many hoops I figure I might get more bang for my buck by ~Sharing~. bigrazz

When I come to a scanlator that has their own reading platform as well as a well kept download list I cry tears of joy and typically respect them more then others. In fact I'm more likely to read all of their series and more likely to ~donate~.

Even more so as someone who reviews manga and tries to direct people where to download/read the series, I'm more likely to support whichever group makes reading the easiest. If that's a third party site then that's what it is. But I will always push for scanlators if they are reader/fan friendly.

End Note
While everyone may have a comment about this I want to mention one last thing.
Your scanlation group will inevitably fail. One thing or another it will drop off the face of the internet at some point.
Unfortunately you, being a stingy miser, will take all of your hard work with you leaving all the fans like this: none
Because my friends. It will say here on MU that there are scans but they are nowhere to be found because no one thought to upkeep an archive.
These massive manga reader sites and download archives will still be there when you're gone.

Shout out to everyone hosting "Shoujo Magic" projects. <3"

PS: We all know that this is all illegal no matter how you put it. My only question is why Mangafox still exists? Being the biggest there's no doubt that major Publishers know about them. Conspiracy maybe?

Last edited by Kitteh_13 at 3:07 am, Nov 13

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doorknob
Post #576824
Member

5:46 am, Nov 13 2012
Posts: 26


^
Agree. I recall a while back there was a scanslation group that would give their zip/rar files a password and make the readers google a certain riddle (IE name of city that involve something or a particular actor from said show). I finally got feed up and everytime they something that required a pw, I would post the pw as many times as I can in the comment areas.

I am proud to state that many of these comment threads were locked and many submitted posts by the general public were to be reviewed and approved by the site managers before they got posted due to my actions. Eventually the site realized that I would troll all their releases with passwords and eventually stopped putting passwords into their zip/rar files.

And yet...I recieved no thanks for my troubles.

flowinmyboat
Post #576902
user avatar
Member

9:22 pm, Nov 13 2012
Posts: 65


I do part-time translations for a scanlation group and I get where you're coming from but then again I would have never known about that group if I hadn't been able to read their scans on a manga reader site. They didn't have an online reader then and I don't want to download manga onto my computer (the piece of junk is slow enough as is).

Personally I don't like manga reader sites, but for different reasons other than stealing. They are so slow and there are ads everywhere. And, geez, yes, they make more money than the site needs for upkeep. Example: with Google AdSense you only need 1,000 clicks a day to make 100,000 USD in a year but hosting an image sharing site (which software for can be found for free) is around $18 a month. $18 x 12 months = $216 per year (also, even if they paid $18 a day, it's only $6570 per year). Since most manga reader sites also sport forums, I can assume they get way more than a thousand clicks in a day and they make more. But, if I need to go to one because I can't download and there is no online reader, then what can a girl do?

I honestly think scanlator's need online readers on their site, that way the readers stay on their site and don't need to go to a manga reader site. The group I'm with got one recently and it's amazing (and I think it was free also, I know some other groups pay for theirs). It's so much faster than manga reader sites. Two, it's not loaded with ads. And third, it makes the scanlators happy and you don't have to worry about an ad freaking you by saying "Congratulation, you won!" out of nowhere or ever see the words "Roman Orgies" together...ever.

Translating takes time and effort and at the end of the day, I love to see my product. I also want my product to be seen so I didn't just waste a Sunday afternoon. The only way I can see a solution to the problem is for all scan groups to get online readers, because a lot of people don't want to download, which is the only option most scanlators give.

I guess my point is: It's a for the fans by the fans thing, but if you want to make money, then by all means put ads on your site instead of calling for the end of manga reader sites. Sad to say,they aren't going anywhere. /end also I'm super tired so sorry if the English is off anywhere

Also, Kitteh_13, the reason Mangafox can exist is because it stops hosting licensed works in the US, meaning beforehand no one can sue because they don't have the rights to the English distribution. IDK why Japanese manga companies don't do anything though. I think I heard about a case where a Japanese author sent an email to scanlators asking them not to scanlate their work anymore. Maybe they think that them reading it in English for free online won't hurt their sales because they weren't gonna buy it anyways?

Last edited by flowinmyboat at 9:35 pm, Nov 13

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