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Site Poll - Chat Box 169 - Scanlation Watermarks

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Scyfon
Post #522971 - Reply to (#522960) by LordZel
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Mome Basher
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3:07 am, Feb 13 2012
Posts: 3375


Quote from LordZel
It's ironic you bring up blackout day, seeing as a blackout would be far more constructive than watermarks. With manga being a weekly/monthly/bimonthly/etc. type thing, it'd probably take a blackout longer than a day to get attention though.

I'm all up for a month long - no, even a 2 month long blackout if it meant the end of obnoxious watermarks and/or MF/MH. laugh


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FoolsLove
Post #522980
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4:32 am, Feb 13 2012
Posts: 19


The sheer amount of ignorance in this thread saddens me so much. I'm just not going to bother responding to it all because it'd just be a considerably waste of time.

I advise the majority of people who have no idea what they're talking about to read this thread, before responding and looking like more of an idiot.

This is what should be done, by most, if not all scanlators.

Identity Crisis
Post #522985 - Reply to (#522980) by FoolsLove
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Ever the optimist
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5:06 am, Feb 13 2012
Posts: 4881


Quote from FoolsLove
The sheer amount of ignorance in this thread saddens me so much. I'm just not going to bother responding to it all because it'd just be a considerably waste of time.


Agreed, and you are definitely helping that, right?

Quote from FoolsLove


I agree, lets stop scanlating altogether. That will definitely stop things!

Actually, I'm not being sarcastic there. The groups that think they are doing something about it with watermarks SHOULD stop. Eventually someone better will pick it up, or nobody will, and life will keep moving regardless.

But, we aren't talking about NOEZ here, Fool, we are talking about simple watermarks. You people keep bringing up NOEZ, and the profit they are making off the hard work of others(The people who put their spare time into translating and releasing manga for us(However misguided they may be with their attempts to get back at them)), like it justifies something. What they are doing is terrible, and they should be thrown in jail, yes, but what does putting bullshit onto a series do to help any of that? Nothing. Spreading the word about it is definitely important, but not when it impedes on the quality of a release.

Look, what it comes down to is that the people doing all of this feel they should be doing SOMETHING to get back at them, right? (Maybe I'm being too lenient with them here, because there are some that are definitely only in this for the e-penis, but we'll ignore those guys for now.) I agree with that, wholeheartedly. There SHOULD be something done. Am I smart enough to come up with a better way? No, but I do know that the current way is pretty fucking stupid.

Honestly, I don't even like posting all that much anymore, but this topic is pretty interesting, and I really do want to hear both sides of this debate(From an intelligent stand point, of course, not just a "hurrrdurrr We have to stop NOEZ, guys, so lets just fuck over the fans." kind of view.), so I'm trying to stir things up here.

Come on, lets hear it~ I know there are people here that can destroy me in a debate, so where are you all hiding~?

Tran Linh
Post #522987
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5:40 am, Feb 13 2012
Posts: 50


here's how much i care for your ranting, crisis: *yawnnn*

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FoolsLove
Post #522996 - Reply to (#522985) by Identity Crisis
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6:49 am, Feb 13 2012
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This is mostly directed at Identity Crisis, but I'm going to respond to this like I should have in the first place, despite it being a general waste of time. Unfortunately, I have the time to waste at the moment to do so.

The fact of the matter is, while NOEZ is not the main subject topic, watermarks only came about in the first place because of NOEZ and his practices. If it wasn't for NOEZ, watermarks would not exist to the extent they do. Sure, some groups might do the transparent logo in the corners, but Japanzai, Manga-Heaven, etc. would not be using watermarks like they are now. Credit pages aren't read 99% of the time, that includes this page that PROzess attaches to all of his releases, and every other similar page that other groups and people attach to their releases.

It may not be apparent to all readers, but the scanlator community has been dying. Once again, this is due to NOEZ and his practices. It's also another reason for a lot of watermarks. Scanlators exist because they want to release manga. They want people to read it, and enjoy it, but that has become increasingly harder to do, because the sites NOEZ run cut out scanlators entirely. They used to cut out credit pages, and often the scanlator that is credited for doing the work is the wrong one. Sometimes a group isn't even credited at all. It made it so less and less people that might be interested in working for scanlator groups would never be led to a scanlator's site, and apply. Meaning that as more and more people quit the scanlator community for whatever reason, there aren't people there to take their place. Since I started reading manga about 5-6 months ago, there has not been one time I've gone to a scanlator site that wasn't accepting applications for staff, and that continues to now.

So, how are you going to get these issues to the attention of the readers? By using watermarks like Japanzai, Manga-Heaven, etc. use. I find it quite a bit funny that people are complaining about these watermarks, too. Because, the only place that these watermarks are detrimental to the manga's quality in the first place are on sites like MangaFox, MangaHere, and so on. If you go to a scanlator's website, or use Batoto, like everyone should be, watermarks would be a complete non-issue, for everyone.

Fact of the matter though is, watermarks, and sites like Batoto are working. While the community itself is still dwindling in numbers, the counter-measures being taken are working, to some extent. More people are going to scanlator's being interested in working on manga. These watermarks are going to continue, and more and more groups are going to start using more and more obnoxious watermarks. Will that continue to upset some readers? Yes. Will that continue to work in a positive way as a whole though? Yes.

Identity Crisis
Post #523000 - Reply to (#522987) by Tran Linh
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Ever the optimist
Super Mod

7:32 am, Feb 13 2012
Posts: 4881


Quote from Tran Linh
here's how much i care for your ranting, crisis: *yawnnn*


Awww, that's not very nice, Tran~ You've hurt my feelings~ I should ban you for that! :3

@FoolsLove,

Hm. Not what I was hoping for, but that's ok, we can't always get what we want.

Yes, if it wasn't for NOEZ, things would not have escalated as they have, but does that mean it is ok for things to continue down that path, in the righteous name of defeating NOEZ and the evil way of doing things for profit? No. What people need to, and what many HAVE, realize(d) is that you aren't going to stop this by doing such simple things, and that it merely causes trouble for everybody when you try to. Yes, I am telling you to simply give up on that route. You can not win against a foe who simply does not give a fuck, and them not giving a fuck has been proved time and time again. Its like throwing bricks against a rubber wall and watching them come back at you.

You are correct, however, about scanlation dying. In the years I have been active, I have seen many good groups come and go, and many shitty ones stay. It is pathetic, and I am sure those that have been active much longer than I have seen worse things happen. However, watermarks do NOT help the good groups in the long run. I'm GLAD Japanzai has decided to pull that bullshit you originally linked to, because they are only hurting themselves in doing that, and that would be one less shit group. Eventually, a better group will pick up the slack, for better reasons than internet fame, and will do the right thing and simply release it FOR THE FANS. Anybody doing these things for any reason other than that deserves to have people profit from them. I know that is a pretty harsh view of things, but it's pretty pathetic to be doing it for any other reason, me thinks. Take Hox, for example. He is one of the best scanlators out there, and he gives zero fucks, or rather, realizes that he can't control people in the first place, which is where a lot of the problems come from nowadays. Is it so wrong for people to want to be given credit for their work? Certainly not, but it is for them to get so wrapped up in it that they lose sight of things.

Ah, you bring up a good point with your fourth paragraph, though, because if we didn't use sites like those, we wouldn't be bitching, right? Except that's wrong. It was at Batoto, which is supposed to be helping all of this, that I've seen the Japanzai bullshit to begin with.

Watermarks are working? How? Like that other guy said earlier; convenience is king, and people are going to go to the places that give them the easiest and fastest ways of getting things, regardless of whether or not it is right, or if it is even killing the scene as a whole in the long run. People just suck like that, you know?

Look, I'm terrible at things like this, but the point that I am trying to get across is that it really doesn't matter what you do, because people are always going to bitch, and people are always going to go for the easiest way of things. Most people, anyway. Working towards a solution isn't a bad thing, but making sacrifices along the way is.We shouldn't have to deal with stupid things such as watermarks, or groups withholding releases to make a point, just because things aren't going the way they want. Its childish and moronic to allow such things to occur, and even more so to do it yourselves. Of course, it is also childish to think the way I do at times, so, what do you know? We're all damn children arguing about who is right and who is wrong on the playground known as online entertainment piracy, and you know what? None of it matters.

Spoiler (mouse over to view)
Aw, man, this is coming off way more emotional than I was hoping for. Feels bad, man.

Oh, and I shouldn't have to say this, but all of the preceding is my opinion, and mine alone. It does not represent what Mangaupdates thinks as a whole.

Just thought I should throw that out there, since I'm pretty extremist in my views on this, as a whole, and it may look bad if people thought otherwise.


Now, come on. There are obvious flaws in what I said, and I know one of you is going to pick apart each and every one of them until you think I'll be too embarrassed by your superior logic that I wont want to continue with my fanaticism or even come back here at all. So hurry up, then. I'm simply wanting a debate for the fun of it, no other reason, so lets not take this personally, okay guys? :3

Sagaris
Post #523007
user avatar
Member

8:16 am, Feb 13 2012
Posts: 3116


Outside the panels would be the best.
Of note, I've recently encountered some weird animated ones, I saw Jesus on one once.

gwkimmy
Post #523037
:D
Member

4:33 pm, Feb 13 2012
Posts: 270


dont care, since it's not my place to complain anyways. besides, i havent seen watermarks that have been so huge and blocking that it detracts from my reading.

what annoys me is mangafox watermarking all the pages like they scanlated the stuff themselves. i see the watermark on other manga readers sometimes and...just lol. i direct dl manga when i can and so far it's all watermark free~ at least, watermarks i can remember and recall.

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Post #523263 - Reply to (#523000) by Identity Crisis
Member

11:20 pm, Feb 14 2012
Posts: 1


Quote from Identity Crisis
Watermarks are working? How? Like that other guy said earlier; convenience is king, and people are going to go to the places that give them the easiest and fastest ways of getting things, regardless of whether or not it is right, or if it is even killing the scene as a whole in the long run. People just suck like that, you know?


As an anecdotal counterpoint: the recent usage of watermarks have actually turned me away from places like mangafox, because they've helped me become aware of this NOEZ issue. The process went something like this;

1) I went over to mangafox and found that Manga Series X was updated. Gleefully, I clicked on the chapter to read.

2) Instead of the usual chapter page, I got a big watermark in my face. I'll admit that the first few times this happened, I simply decided to check back at a later time, thinking that someone might upload a non-watermarked chapter.

3) One day I decided to humor the watermarks and read what they were about. Thanks to them, I got to know about batoto.

4) At batoto, where scanlators are more in touch with the reader base, I became more aware of the NOEZ issue. I now no longer visit mangafox, and sometimes I even read stuff right at scanlators' websites (some of them have really slick online readers, and if you get scans right from the source you don't have to deal with delays either).

So thanks to watermarks, I actually no longer use mangafox. (That and the fact that mangafox sometimes give you viruses. That was the other big reason why I stopped going there. :/) In fact, because of watermarks I feel like I'm getting my manga faster and safer, because they've caused me to patrol mangaupdates more for quick news on releases, then follow the links to the respective scanlator's site and read it there, if not at batoto.

That said, this is merely one anecdote; I can't say for certain that other people who encounter watermarks will react to them the way I did (and indeed, many of the people are quite annoyed about them).

Nychii
Post #523680
Member

8:18 pm, Feb 16 2012
Posts: 8


I laughed so hard when I read some of the comments on here, especially the latest comment by Identity Crisis. Why do people feel as though a scanlation team is obligated to scanlate a series they picked up? They're not getting paid for their hobby, in fact, they're actually paying for it...and readers are still bad mouthing them behind their back. I don't think it's a bad thing that scanlators ask for a little respect out of the work they do and people scanlate for a variety of reasons, even if the reasoning is not always what you agree with. Granted, I don't think doing it for internet fame is the right mentality. There is, however, no obligation for them to give you your manga/manhwa/manhua/webtoon fix and you have no right to call them "shitty" teams. If you don't like it, scanlate all the series you want to read yourself. Don't read that team's scanlations, easy as that.

I can't stand mangafox/mangahere for marking the pages as their own. I find it revolting and thus refuse to use their site.

In regards to watermarks, I would prefer them outside the box but I can accept it all over the place if the chapter itself is still readable.

Last edited by Nychii at 8:42 pm, Feb 16

Identity Crisis
Post #523694 - Reply to (#523680) by Nychii
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Ever the optimist
Super Mod

9:25 pm, Feb 16 2012
Posts: 4881


Quote from Nychii
I laughed so hard when I read some of the comments on here, especially the latest comment by Identity Crisis. Why do people feel as though a scanlation team is obligated to scanlate a series they picked up? They're not getting paid for their hobby, in fact, they're actually paying for it...and readers are still bad mouthing them behind their back. I don't think it's a bad thing that scanlators ask for a little respect out of the work they do and people scanlate for a variety of reasons, even if the reasoning is not always what you agree with. Granted, I don't think doing it for internet fame is the right mentality. There is, however, no obligation for them to give you your manga/manhwa/manhua/webtoon fix and you have no right to call them "shitty" teams. If you don't like it, scanlate all the series you want to read yourself. Don't read that team's scanlations, easy as that.


Except we do have the right to call them shitty when they do shitty things, or do you think we should ignore what they do because they are providing a free service for us?

We can all appreciate that people go out of their way for us, and provide us entertainment that often times they end up paying for themselves out of pocket, but you said it yourselves, doing it for the wrong reasons is just bullshit.

This goes back to my first post; Putting them there is one thing, but don't be fucking obnoxious about it. Why is that so hard for people to do? Thinking you'll be able to control what people do is foolish beyond belief, and I just have a hard time taking anybody that tries to do so seriously.

Also, your last point is certainly true. Why read something I'm complaining about so much? Because, as I said, convenience is king, and people will almost always choose it over waiting and simple stuff.

Still, saying things like "bad mouthing them behind their backs." seems kind of defensive. I have no qualms with talking to people directly about things like this, but I'm not foolish enough to believe my words will sway someone who is already set in a frame of mind. That's just how it goes, sadly, as Tran so clearly showed earlier. Just people being people again.

Also also, "Why do people feel as though a scanlation team is obligated to scanlate a series they picked up?". I'm sorry, What? Isn't that the whole point of picking something up? To provide a series you think people would like to the masses?

Nychii
Post #523704 - Reply to (#523694) by Identity Crisis
Member

10:15 pm, Feb 16 2012
Posts: 8


Quote from Identity Crisis
Except we do have the right to call them shitty when they do shitty things, or do you think we should ignore what they do because they are providing a free service for us?

We can all appreciate that people go out of their way for us, and provide us entertainment that often times they end up paying for themselves out of pocket, but you said it yourselves, doing it for the wrong reasons is just bullshit.

This goes back to my first post; Putting them there is one thing, but don't be fucking obnoxious about it. Why is that so hard for people to do? Thinking you'll be able to control what people do is foolish beyond belief, and I just have a hard time taking anybody that tries to do so seriously.

Also, your last point is certainly true. Why read something I'm complaining about so much? Because, as I said, convenience is king, and people will almost always choose it over waiting and simple stuff.

Still, saying things like "bad mouthing them behind their backs." seems kind of defensive. I have no qualms with talking to people directly about things like this, but I'm not foolish enough to believe my words will sway someone who is already set in a frame of mind. That's just how it goes, sadly, as Tran so clearly showed earlier. Just people being people again.

Also also, "Why do people feel as though a scanlation team is obligated to scanlate a series they picked up?". I'm sorry, What? Isn't that the whole point of picking something up? To provide a series you think people would like to the masses?


No, people pick projects up because of a variety of reasons. For the fans, for themselves, for the challenge, for the learning how to use photoshop, for learning another language, etc. There are loads of reason, I'm sure there's even some for the money out there. I do not agree with certain team's ethics as I do not agree with certain hosting sites.

Yes, you are completely entitled to your own opinion about calling them shitty, I didn't mean it in the sense that you can't think what you want. I personally wouldn't use those words for anything that I didn't work on myself. Even if I don't agree with what certain teams are doing (to the extent of hate), I still would not express their team as "shitty" because it feels like your attacking their members and their work rather than the poor decision to plaster the page with what they feel was justified defense against aggregators. Our team has embedded the credits on our images because they're in long strip formats anyway and they're not meant to be read offline so unless the aggregators photoshop them out, they'll be included in each chapter.

I don't think they believe they can control what people do, which is why they put the watermarks in the first place. If they thought they could control people, they might as well just post it on their site saying please don't take the credits off (oh wait, they already did that).

I'm sorry if I sound defensive, I'm an artist and a webtoon scanlator myself so I take what you say to a somewhat personal level. I spend hours every week out of my schedule to edit series for the sheer enjoyment of reading the next chapter and seeing people's responses to the original author's work. The "thanks" is a plus but not a necessity; however, I do want it known that I did help out. The fact that the credits pages are removed, the reader site using their own watermarks, making money off the hours of volunteer labor, and framing the scanlation sites as the sole problem is horrible. In addition, some of the responses I've read about people not caring if it's from Mangafox/Mangahere and mock the scanlators for being "slow," "shitty," "amateur," etc. really pushes my buttons. I agree, I have no right to tell you what you can think or say but I think if you have an opinion, instead of complaining, go to the scanlator's site and ask them nicely to reconsider and provide a viable alternative instead of calling them "shitty" and saying that someone "better" will replace them. You might not change what's set in stone but you'd be surprised how opinions do matter. If worst comes to worst, find like minded people and re-scanlate the whole series if you'd like.


Last edited by Nychii at 10:32 pm, Feb 16

Identity Crisis
Post #523715
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Ever the optimist
Super Mod

10:31 pm, Feb 16 2012
Posts: 4881


Huh. You're actually being rational about this. Good on you, Nychii.

I hear what you are saying about the shitty comment, and I guess I didn't think that one through so much. The work and the people themselves aren't bad, but they are misguided in how they are trying to do something, leading to things like what we've been talking about, ie Massive watermarks or NSFW watermarks. I guess I should say its shitty what they are doing, rather than them being shitty.

I do not, however, agree with you on the control issue. The way I see it, sure they have rights about what they do, and credit should be given, but that is about as far as it goes, because in this day and age, asking people not to do things online is like putting up a wood wall to stop a forest fire, and then they throw fits after people go against what they say, and things like what that guy before posted happen. (Holy run on sentence batman.)

Maybe if things hadn't progressed as they have with the things you mentioned(With the credit being stolen, money being made off them, insults because they are slow, etc.), then maybe they wouldn't be so much of a problem(although, I have my doubts, simply because of what I've said before, about the wrong mentality), but we will never know, because this is the world we live in. What we CAN do, however, is find a better way to deal with those issues than plastering things all over peoples hard work and thinking its ok.

I appreciate you being so open about this discussion, as well. Most people just close out when they hear something they don't agree with, which is why I've not taken to trying to stop things, and instead vent about things on a site like this.

Nychii
Post #523722
Member

10:44 pm, Feb 16 2012
Posts: 8


No problem, I see this from a reader's perspective as well as a scanlator's and no I don't like the huge watermarks but I understand where they're coming from. I'm glad you didn't respond with FLAME WARZZZ, lol

I agree, it's useless to forcefully ask people to do something. Telling someone not to do something online is inviting trolls and the occasional opportunist to make a buck. I would love to see Mangafox/Mangahere shut down but of course, that's probably not going to be the case (unless the US government issues another raid like they did with Megauploads, haha, but I doubt the manga companies have a big enough say...unlike the movie industry...).

Anyway, I do hope this gets resolved somehow. The only way I can contribute to the no watermarks is not to use those aggrevator sites. ^___^

Last edited by Nychii at 11:10 pm, Feb 16

Anyien
Post #524010
Member

12:38 pm, Feb 18 2012
Posts: 4


I for once hate watermarks and never wants to see them at all.

I don´t see anything wrong with a scan group putting in a own page, but when they go as far as destroying the chapter itself with watermarks i´m against it.

I also find it funny that many of them actually cries that MF is "stealing" their "work" and make money out of it. when did it ever become their work? They are not better than MF, actually, they are worse since they steal and edit it without the consent of the author.

So i don´t see anything wrong with groups putting in a page, put when they go as far as destroying the chapter with watermarks because they don´t get any money when we read it, it goes too far.

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