Somewhat on topic Silver Spoon.
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Radically kind or radically cruel, your choice.
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1:55 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 1179
A silly pumpkin
Member
2:24 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 174
It is good that you are researching, however, those answers didn't involve scientific study. It is very logical to avoid vegan web sites and the websites of people who make money from what you are researching. However, Cecil Adams didn't put in any scientific fact, he mentions that there have been studies done that support both sides of the arguments, however wether those studies are credible is left out as is their findings or who funded the studies in the first place.
Few stand to gain anything if dairy is stopped due to the health risks, but many will loose, therefore, they wont be too keen on people looking in to health problems with dairy. Countries that have representative democracies, no matter how good they are, aren't going to jeopardize their positions in power due to ethics or even health issues (sadly) unless the country forces them to do so. It is also why smoking isn't banned, it just makes so much money.
Actual scientific statistics need to be shown, actual professionals need to be consulted. Because the health issues that have been linked to dairy are very severe and today they are increasing, I am not going to have it until I know for a fact that it is safe. The reason why it is still being consumed is because dairy has been accepted for such a long time and we don't perceive it to be a bad thing, due to the amount of advertising we have been exposed to and from what we have been taught and told since children. However, dairy could turn out like cigarettes, no one knew how bad they were and they didn't believe it until it was too late. I don't want to take that risk.
A well balanced diet is needed, however I can see what you mean when you say that fast food stores are popping up all over the place, and is far cheaper than health food. That is were veggie patches come in handy, my family has several, plus fruit trees, you know they aren't covered in pesticides and herbicides and they are the freshest fruit and veggies you will get. It also will give you vitamin B12 which is no longer in a vegan diet because it exists naturally in the dirt currently washed off the bought vegetables. Even if you don't have much room, you can grow stuff in pots and it will save water as well as give you a pleasant and relaxing break in your day. My dads favorite thing to do after a long, hard day at work is to water the garden.
________________
We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
Few stand to gain anything if dairy is stopped due to the health risks, but many will loose, therefore, they wont be too keen on people looking in to health problems with dairy. Countries that have representative democracies, no matter how good they are, aren't going to jeopardize their positions in power due to ethics or even health issues (sadly) unless the country forces them to do so. It is also why smoking isn't banned, it just makes so much money.
Actual scientific statistics need to be shown, actual professionals need to be consulted. Because the health issues that have been linked to dairy are very severe and today they are increasing, I am not going to have it until I know for a fact that it is safe. The reason why it is still being consumed is because dairy has been accepted for such a long time and we don't perceive it to be a bad thing, due to the amount of advertising we have been exposed to and from what we have been taught and told since children. However, dairy could turn out like cigarettes, no one knew how bad they were and they didn't believe it until it was too late. I don't want to take that risk.
A well balanced diet is needed, however I can see what you mean when you say that fast food stores are popping up all over the place, and is far cheaper than health food. That is were veggie patches come in handy, my family has several, plus fruit trees, you know they aren't covered in pesticides and herbicides and they are the freshest fruit and veggies you will get. It also will give you vitamin B12 which is no longer in a vegan diet because it exists naturally in the dirt currently washed off the bought vegetables. Even if you don't have much room, you can grow stuff in pots and it will save water as well as give you a pleasant and relaxing break in your day. My dads favorite thing to do after a long, hard day at work is to water the garden.
________________
We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
Member
2:58 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 137
Quote from RattixEmpire
A well balanced diet is needed, however I can see what you mean when you say that fast food stores are popping up all over the place, and is far cheaper than health food. That is were veggie patches come in handy, my family has several, plus fruit trees, you know they aren't covered in pesticides and herbicides and they are the freshest fruit and veggies you will get. It also will give you vitamin B12 which is no longer in a vegan diet because it exists naturally in the dirt currently washed off the bought vegetables. Even if you don't have much room, you can grow stuff in pots and it will save water as well as give you a pleasant and relaxing break in your day. My dads favorite thing to do after a long, hard day at work is to water the garden.
Only thing is, there is a slight problem with room if you would like to utilize your idea. Not everyone has the privilege of land to grow trees, bushes, gardens, etc. Food grown from a pot can only give you so much. Maybe a meal or 2? And it would take a couple weeks/months to reap the benefits. A poor family would basically have to fill the whole apartment with potted plants to get some kind of possible benefit economically. Then again, the time used to take care of the plants could be used to make money with another job. Even then...water bill may just go up with all those plants to water (not to mention the electric bill to keep all those plants alive in the house while they are gone)
It's pretty crazy, but the solution to not eating meat isn't that simple. Philosophically, people do not always believe the same things you do which makes many of your arguments hard to relate to or understand. For example, not everyone views an animal like a human. It can be viewed as an "it." Food with nutritional value. On the economical standpoint, it isn't always feasible to only eat vegetables/fruits/nuts since adding some meat into a diet is not only cheaper, but also provides for nutritional needs that multiple plant products are needed to cover for.
Even though the experts from your videos/books tell you otherwise, you should try to research the other side of your argument. Don't let a couple videos/books from a vegan point of view be the foundation for all that you believe. It's nice to research the facts, opinions, and statistics supporting the other side to at least understand other points of views (plus it helps to prevent rage wars or make you sound preachy
It tends to detract from your argument and make people rage...which only helps further convince people not to consider what you are saying). The other side isn't all bad and evil~of course it's a choice, but it's based on their own beliefs and how they interpret the facts (which you may disagree with but the opposing side can often be perfectly logical) 
Last edited by BlueHaro at 3:17 am, Apr 10 2012
________________
Mome Basher
Member
3:02 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 3380
Quote from RattixEmpire
I would have gotten some more quotes out of Forks Over Knives, but I seem to have misplaced it... again. There is a huge amount of information out there, just look for it. Look up the studies done on the worlds diet, the internet will be full of it, or you can buy the books. I think you will see, there is very little that shows that meat based diets are in any way healthy.
Quote from Badkarma
Yeah? How. Don't tell me to read "Forks over Bitches" or "Skinny Knives" either, cause that's some other clown's opinion. What's your experience, or at least tell me what the movie and book has taught you. Wanna change a mind? Do work.
...you're borrowing arguments and facts from a book or movie, provide them, or explain them. Don't just toss general ideals to the carnivores and expect them to understand.
...you're borrowing arguments and facts from a book or movie, provide them, or explain them. Don't just toss general ideals to the carnivores and expect them to understand.
Quote
Before everyone starts hating on me...
Too late.
You wanna know why?
You're like one those people who randomly walk up to people in the streets or knocking on doors of random houses with the intent of converting them into their religion.
Except you're worse. Much worse.
Instead of immediately stating WHY it is that your "side" is better, like the aforementioned people usually do, you started off with telling people how crap the world has become indirectly because of how they have lived their lives and what a terrible human being they are by doing so.
Then you respond to their reactions with snide and rhetorical remarks and continue on to...pretty much bashing your audience.
Yeah, way to set the mood, sister.
And as far as I'm aware of, you still haven't fully stated WHY it is that your lifestyle is so much better from everyone else's aside from "you live longer and you stop indirectly destroying the world at a rate where you, and a couple of generations after you would be dead before it happens". To make things worse, you start throwing books and films at people's faces.
"HEY! I'M BETTER THAN YOU! YOU ARE SUCH A TERRIBLE PERSON! BE LIKE ME! READ THIS! AND THIS! AND THIS! OH, AND WATCH THIS! AND THIS ONE TOO! YOU'LL BECOME A BTTER PERSON, JUST LIKE ME IF YOU DO! TRUST ME!"
and when people show no signs of "seeing the light" :
"YOU'RE KILLING YOURSELF. LIVE YOUR LIFE LIKE I DO - THE BEST WAY TO LIVE A LIFE."
While we're on this topic, I'd like to point out that a long life doesn't necessarily mean it is one of high quality. You could live your life eating grass for a looooooong time...but why do it when you're hating yourself for it? There are many who have lived "short" lives but died successful and content.
Death comes to us all - and usually at times where we don't see it coming, regardless of how healthy we eat.
Quote from Badkarma
Habitual heavy smoking will likely kill you.
Habitual heavy drinking will likely kill you.
There is undeniable proof of both.
I can say that till I'm blue in the face, yet my drunken, smoking friends and co-workers will always tell me how "their dad/uncle/mom/grandpa/whatever" smoked a carton a day - while chugging a fifth - and died naturally of old age.
Even if I lay down ALL the facts of how and why inhaling smoke will eventually kill them, they don't care.
YOU'RE trying to explain why eating meat - something humans have done and based diets around since... ever - is harmful, and don't offer any real insight as to how it's so damn bad for us. Oh, you say it's unnecessary, but never seem to elaborate on the damaging part.
The answer may be obvious to you, me and the author of "Little Slut", but it's not obvious everyone else, so maybe you oughta explain in ways other than "it's not natural to drink milk".
Habitual heavy drinking will likely kill you.
There is undeniable proof of both.
I can say that till I'm blue in the face, yet my drunken, smoking friends and co-workers will always tell me how "their dad/uncle/mom/grandpa/whatever" smoked a carton a day - while chugging a fifth - and died naturally of old age.
Even if I lay down ALL the facts of how and why inhaling smoke will eventually kill them, they don't care.
YOU'RE trying to explain why eating meat - something humans have done and based diets around since... ever - is harmful, and don't offer any real insight as to how it's so damn bad for us. Oh, you say it's unnecessary, but never seem to elaborate on the damaging part.
The answer may be obvious to you, me and the author of "Little Slut", but it's not obvious everyone else, so maybe you oughta explain in ways other than "it's not natural to drink milk".
Furthermore, this whole time, the "discussion" has been going on under the assumption that every "meat eater" here eats LOADS of it, not having a balanced diet and that all slaughterhouses work the same way. So much for telling people to do their research.
Quote from Badkarma
I think the biggest problem I see with these discussions is that it always trends to the extreme side of both realms, inevitably toeing the borderline of sarcasm and sheer stupidity.
Last edited by Scyfon at 3:21 am, Apr 10 2012
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Everyday I'm tumblin'
A silly pumpkin
Member
6:38 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 174
My point is to be far worse than those people who come nocking on your doors, because you forget about them five minutes later. I have made everyone here think about what they are eating and since it can not be denied that there is cruelty, I think we can agree that my argument does have a point, and it has clearly had an effect of everyone here.
Factory farms and poultry farms and every other sort of farm relevant to this conversation only have those animal friendly options because people like me annoyed allot of people and raised awareness about what they were eating and were it came from. Because people began to take an active interest in how ethical their food was, free range eggs, free range meat and free range dairy began to be made in order to accommodate for demand. Just because ethical food is an option, doesn't mean it is law, and the currant laws are outdated and ineffective.
I have been inspired by other people to take this view and would love to see others take it on as well. I'm sorry if I seemed condescending, I got caught up in the argument and forgot its purpose. I would like to inspire other people just as I was inspired, and all I want is to see the world become just that much more beautiful, because it's possible.
________________
We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
Factory farms and poultry farms and every other sort of farm relevant to this conversation only have those animal friendly options because people like me annoyed allot of people and raised awareness about what they were eating and were it came from. Because people began to take an active interest in how ethical their food was, free range eggs, free range meat and free range dairy began to be made in order to accommodate for demand. Just because ethical food is an option, doesn't mean it is law, and the currant laws are outdated and ineffective.
I have been inspired by other people to take this view and would love to see others take it on as well. I'm sorry if I seemed condescending, I got caught up in the argument and forgot its purpose. I would like to inspire other people just as I was inspired, and all I want is to see the world become just that much more beautiful, because it's possible.
________________
We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
Is a female
Member7:17 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 3457
To be honest, all you've made me do is think about how much meat I eat, how much I love it and how much I've been deprived of it since I've been at Uni.
I thank you for re-kindling my passion for eating meat. I'll be sure to eat twice as much lamb over the weekend when we have our Easter barbecue, just because you've reminded me how godly the stuff tastes like and how much I miss it.
Thank you =D
I thank you for re-kindling my passion for eating meat. I'll be sure to eat twice as much lamb over the weekend when we have our Easter barbecue, just because you've reminded me how godly the stuff tastes like and how much I miss it.
Thank you =D
Member
7:44 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 636
Quote
My point is to be far worse than those people who come nocking on your doors, because you forget about them five minutes later.
Yup. Door to door preachers just make me feel like trolling a religious forum board once or twice. Your thread has convinced me to eat significantly more meat over the next week or so.
________________
"It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
A silly pumpkin
Member
7:45 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 174
Thats like my friend, she loves eating meat as well, no matter what I say she still says
"Yes, but I love meat" in her distinctly Scottish accent. She did try being vegetarian, way before I was vegan, it lasted a couple of weeks before she through down the celery stick with disgust and hopped into a steak.
________________
We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
"Yes, but I love meat" in her distinctly Scottish accent. She did try being vegetarian, way before I was vegan, it lasted a couple of weeks before she through down the celery stick with disgust and hopped into a steak.
________________
We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
Mind Wrack
Member
8:55 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 212
Yum yum meat! *rips of a piece of his double burger*.
Meat,
The Steed
________________
He who hides the truth with lies,
Will only be left with his inner cries.
Sincerely Yours,
The Steed
Meat,
The Steed
________________
He who hides the truth with lies,
Will only be left with his inner cries.
Sincerely Yours,
The Steed
Member
9:01 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 87
9:01 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 87
People eat meat because they like it, it's in their nature. We don't want to admit it and face the truth that we ARE vicious predators. Our eyes are in front instead of to the side to allow use to see a 3D picture of objects to gauge the distance. If you look at all prey mammals, their eyes are often to the side or in positions that give them the large viewing angle. On the other hand, predators have eyes in front (dogs, cats, tigers, wolves...etc) so they can hunt down preys better.
A lot of our behaviors are coded in our genes. Why do kids like sweets? It's not a miracle food for kids, it's just high in energies and we are coded to be value high energies stuff. Why sex feels good? If it didn't we'd all be extinct because our ancestors didn't have a lot of time for not-feel-so-good stuff in a hostile world. Similarly, we are also coded to like the taste of grilled meat. There are quite a bit of evidence for this. As you all know, humans (or rather our line of homo-) went through a lot of natural selections that makes us good predators and scavengers. We were hunters and gatherers. During our nomad days, gatherers tend to make the core of our food supply which were mostly fruits and nuts. However, hunters were very valued because they brought in meats, fats, bone marrows (highly valued) and other animal products. These products greatly enhanced our survival and the guys who didn't like meats get thrown out of the gene pool.
Humans are cruel and selfish just like any other living beings. They think of themselves first (all religions tend to put human as center of the universe) and value themselves over all other beings. A human life is worth more than a pig's life. Human also value things that belongs to them or closely related to them more than others. You find some people love their pets more than some distant 3rd world child. Some people can eat dog meat but not many of them can eat their pets. Human also feel related to things that resemble them. You are more likely going to feel the pain of a sheep about to be slaughtered in your hands than a bug getting itself crushed under your feet.
Is it moral? Immoral? Good? Bad? I'd say it's ultimately amoral. It's neither good nor bad. A tiger didn't hunt down and eat deers for fun. He did it because it's in his nature. It's coded into his genes that he likes that particular activity/smell/taste. Human like to eat meat because it's in their nature to like it. Just like kids liking sweets, guys like boobs and sex feels good. We waged war not because of the gains but because we like to fight. We are selfish not because we are evil but because it generally increases our survival. It's in our nature to be violent, to seek dominance, to hoard stuff, to be the right one, to raise above all others and to sacrifice ourselves for others. Yeah, it's part of our genes to sometimes sacrifice ourselves for others; I can explain it in another post if you want to know.
Should we think about becoming vegans? Well, after 60 years of promises to help 3rd world nations by giving a portion of our wealth, we gave little and invested a lot into weapons and armies. Children still die of malnutrition because there weren't enough food. We sit on our comfy couches and watch as the North Korean people die a slow and painful death. Simple diseases that costs like $2 to cure still kill people because they can't afford the money. We bought $200 clothes knowing a doctor out there trying to bring medicine to a distant village. We happily take our medicine knowing that we tested those on thousands of animals, trapped in cages, torn apart. You were generous to Japan during their crisis but why don't you care much about that little girl trying to survive in Africa? That $400 iPad2 look mighty cheap, perhaps you should indulge yourself?
By human standards, human are evil, ignorant, selfish, bloodthirsty, vain, self serving.... Even noble ideas like love and compassion are merely masks of self interests. Only wisdom, knowledge, understanding and reasons are probably the things that make us somewhat better than an animal. Frankly, we're not that much better given how we love to embrace our nature.
A lot of our behaviors are coded in our genes. Why do kids like sweets? It's not a miracle food for kids, it's just high in energies and we are coded to be value high energies stuff. Why sex feels good? If it didn't we'd all be extinct because our ancestors didn't have a lot of time for not-feel-so-good stuff in a hostile world. Similarly, we are also coded to like the taste of grilled meat. There are quite a bit of evidence for this. As you all know, humans (or rather our line of homo-) went through a lot of natural selections that makes us good predators and scavengers. We were hunters and gatherers. During our nomad days, gatherers tend to make the core of our food supply which were mostly fruits and nuts. However, hunters were very valued because they brought in meats, fats, bone marrows (highly valued) and other animal products. These products greatly enhanced our survival and the guys who didn't like meats get thrown out of the gene pool.
Humans are cruel and selfish just like any other living beings. They think of themselves first (all religions tend to put human as center of the universe) and value themselves over all other beings. A human life is worth more than a pig's life. Human also value things that belongs to them or closely related to them more than others. You find some people love their pets more than some distant 3rd world child. Some people can eat dog meat but not many of them can eat their pets. Human also feel related to things that resemble them. You are more likely going to feel the pain of a sheep about to be slaughtered in your hands than a bug getting itself crushed under your feet.
Is it moral? Immoral? Good? Bad? I'd say it's ultimately amoral. It's neither good nor bad. A tiger didn't hunt down and eat deers for fun. He did it because it's in his nature. It's coded into his genes that he likes that particular activity/smell/taste. Human like to eat meat because it's in their nature to like it. Just like kids liking sweets, guys like boobs and sex feels good. We waged war not because of the gains but because we like to fight. We are selfish not because we are evil but because it generally increases our survival. It's in our nature to be violent, to seek dominance, to hoard stuff, to be the right one, to raise above all others and to sacrifice ourselves for others. Yeah, it's part of our genes to sometimes sacrifice ourselves for others; I can explain it in another post if you want to know.
Should we think about becoming vegans? Well, after 60 years of promises to help 3rd world nations by giving a portion of our wealth, we gave little and invested a lot into weapons and armies. Children still die of malnutrition because there weren't enough food. We sit on our comfy couches and watch as the North Korean people die a slow and painful death. Simple diseases that costs like $2 to cure still kill people because they can't afford the money. We bought $200 clothes knowing a doctor out there trying to bring medicine to a distant village. We happily take our medicine knowing that we tested those on thousands of animals, trapped in cages, torn apart. You were generous to Japan during their crisis but why don't you care much about that little girl trying to survive in Africa? That $400 iPad2 look mighty cheap, perhaps you should indulge yourself?
By human standards, human are evil, ignorant, selfish, bloodthirsty, vain, self serving.... Even noble ideas like love and compassion are merely masks of self interests. Only wisdom, knowledge, understanding and reasons are probably the things that make us somewhat better than an animal. Frankly, we're not that much better given how we love to embrace our nature.
✯ Sarcastic
Member9:18 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 597
An interesting experiment discovered that over 65% of people are willing to kill other humans if told to do so by an authority figure. What do you think the number would be if we replace 'humans' with 'animals'? Being cruel and ruthless is within all of us. Just look at how everyone says they are going to punish a person that is 'evil,' such as murderers and rapists.
________________
________________
Member
10:05 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 20
Quote from RattixEmpire
For the first world, anyone with a house can have a veggie garden and get pretty much all the fruit and veggies they need from there instead of having a patch of grass just to look pretty and soak up water.
And those that can't afford a house with a garden should just all go to hell. Not to mention that the fresh and crispy city air is really good for cultivating vegetables. I'm sure it will be very healthy food you get out of it. Next step: go back to lead plumbing. Also a garden requires a lot of effort. You either have never had a veggie garden or you have too much free time on your hands. A person commuting 3 hours to and from work and working 8 hours is dying to spend a couple more on his/her garden.
I' rather be cruel to animals than to humans.
Quote from Scyfon
Quote
Go drink some of your mothers breast milk and then you can come back to me and argue that drinking milk is natural.
...
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLWUT?
So you weren't breastfed? Well that explains quite a lot
Badum-Tss
If it was unnatural for humans to eat meat we won't be omnivorous. I'm off to make some curry.
PS: I wonder... do the rest of the people who respond to this thread do it only because they are as bored as I am.
L@zyBerRy
Member5:32 pm, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 136
Quote from Sou1Reaver
PS: I wonder... do the rest of the people who respond to this thread do it only because they are as bored as I am.
Yes we do...
i was just reading this and suddenly think of this thread ....LOL
http://readonline.egscans.com/Hells_Kitchen/Chapter_001/14
A silly pumpkin
Member
5:50 pm, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 174
Yay for hat liberation, and beware....
Butterflies are going to take over the world, and eat all of the beavers.......NOOOOoooooooooo
crash,
bang,
wither.
________________
We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
Butterflies are going to take over the world, and eat all of the beavers.......NOOOOoooooooooo
crash,
bang,
wither.
________________
We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
Lowly Member
Member
9:26 pm, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 3888
Yup, I eat meat. I'm such a horrible person, killing the world as we know it.
________________
♪MONSTARR~ will eat all your cookies and steal your bishies~♪ Φ_Φ
________________
♪MONSTARR~ will eat all your cookies and steal your bishies~♪ Φ_Φ
