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Evolution faith//fact?

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Do you think evolution is a faith?
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FormX
Post #513024 - Reply to (#512962) by MondSemmel
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5:41 am, Dec 18 2011
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Quote from MondSemmel
Not believing in evolution is like not believing in gravity. You are free to do so. But you still wouldn't jump off a building, certain that you'd survive, right?
Similarly, nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.


Not going to argue with you, but most scientists of all fields could continue to conduct their work without particular reference to evolutionary ideas, except in evolutionary biology itself.

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Post #513028 - Reply to (#513019) by eblees
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5:53 am, Dec 18 2011
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Quote from eblees
i agree with you, but the god of the Abrahamic religions is not compatible with evolution. thats why there is a huge resistance to it


It wholly is, if you don't interpret the texts literally, the entire idea that it's not is a huge misconception because it makes certain traditional readings of the text have a slightly different connotation. The belief system can completely function within the confines of a world which functions under evolution. Just like it can survive the universe not revolving around the earth, the core beliefs don't change, some interpretations of the text just have to be shifted slightly. With so many translations from the original, though (Islam aside) it's hard to say whether that really wasn't the original point.

The issue is that people don't like believing new things. New information can cause them to re-evaluate some of their own thoughts and ideas, and there's always, always resistance to that, even within scientific theories (I suspect presenting string theory to a room of 19th century scientists would probably end badly). The system is compatible, it's human nature that isn't.

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Post #513029
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5:55 am, Dec 18 2011
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no because you learn it and then you believe it. faith is believing first and then learning it later. sound bullshitty, but this keeps me praying every night even though i am too wasted to keep my eyes open.

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Post #513031 - Reply to (#173880) by KennEH!
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6:03 am, Dec 18 2011
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Quote from KennEH!
In my opinion evolution is a faith and will be till everything has been solved. It is called a theory for a reason. There are holes that need to be filled. If you believe in evolution you must have faith that it is true, because not all evidence is there to prove as fact yet. Just my thoughts.


You clearly don't understand the scientific use of the word "theory." Here's a definition for you from http://www.fsteiger.com/theory.html.

Quote
As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena.

Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. A clear distinction needs to be made between facts (things which can be observed and/or measured) and theories (explanations which correlate and interpret the facts.


No idea in science gets beyond being a theory in the scientific use of that word. For a concept to attain the label of "theory" it holds a lot of weight and has been well-tested and challenged by the scientific community. The reason, so far as I understand, that a concept never gets beyond "theory" is because rather than being a rigid concept it is something that can be changed as our understanding advances and we make new discoveries.

(If anyone who is more well-versed in this stuff wants to jump in, you're welcome to expand on my short explanation.)

imp4ever
Post #513032 - Reply to (#513031) by book_lover
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6:07 am, Dec 18 2011
Posts: 257


Quote from book_lover
No idea in science gets beyond being a theory in the scientific use of that word. For a concept to attain the label of "theory" it holds a lot of weight and has been well-tested and challenged by the scientific community. The reason, so far as I understand, that a concept never gets beyond "theory" is because rather than being a rigid concept it is something that can be changed as our understanding advances and we make new discoveries.


Basically, I agree with everything you guys are saying about theories. I also want to add that I think some people are confusing "theory" with "hypothesis". They're very different, but sometimes are used almost interchangeably in non-scientific speech.


WandereroftheDeep
Post #513057
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10:53 am, Dec 18 2011
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Evolution is a fact unless proven otherwise, as is the case with all scientific theories.

Humans evolved from a mono cellular organism just like the rest of life on earth. The fact that our mitochondrial DNA is different from the DNA in the rest of our body cells supports the view that our ancestors were at some point a cluster of mono cellular organisms. Mitochondria are in fact mono cellular organisms which could survive on their own, but at some point in history they were absorbed by a cluster of cells (our ancestor) and formed a symbiotic relationship; the cluster of cells in a symbiotic relationship at some point became so dependent on each other that they became a single organism.

And let me just point out that "Intelligent Design" is a sorry excuse for a scientific theory, because the Bible and evolutionary theory really aren't compatible; a key feature of evolutionary theory is that it happens spontaniously, and so it excludes the possibility of divine intervention. But if they wish to willfully decieve themselves that's their problem, and I wish they would stop trying to make it everyone else's problem too.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but this is my view on the matter.

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Post #513060 - Reply to (#513057) by WandereroftheDeep
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11:03 am, Dec 18 2011
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Quote from WandereroftheDeep
Evolution is a fact unless proven otherwise, as is the case with all scientific theories.

Humans evolved from a mono cellular organism just like the rest of life on earth. The fact that our mitochondrial DNA is different from the DNA in the rest of our body cells supports the view that our ancestors were at some point a cluster of mono cellular organisms. Mitochondria are in fact mono cellular organisms which could survive on their own, but at some point in history they were absorbed by a cluster of cells (our ancestor) and formed a symbiotic relationship; the cluster of cells in a symbiotic relationship at some point became so dependent on each other that they became a single organism.

And let me just point out that "Intelligent Design" is a sorry excuse for a scientific theory, because the Bible and evolutionary theory really aren't compatible; a key feature of evolutionary theory is that it happens spontaniously, and so it excludes the possibility of divine intervention. But if they wish to willfully decieve themselves that's their problem, and I wish they would stop trying to make it everyone else's problem too.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but this is my view on the matter.

Bravo, well said. Though whether it is faith or fact will still be argued, reminds me of the one of the pictures I have in relation to this topic.


Last edited by Maxieflame at 11:09 am, Dec 18

FormX
Post #513061 - Reply to (#513057) by WandereroftheDeep
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11:03 am, Dec 18 2011
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Quote from WandereroftheDeep
And let me just point out that "Intelligent Design" is a sorry excuse for a scientific theory, because the Bible and evolutionary theory really aren't compatible; a key feature of evolutionary theory is that it happens spontaniously, and so it excludes the possibility of divine intervention. But if they wish to willfully decieve themselves that's their problem, and I wish they would stop trying to make it everyone else's problem too.


LOL. Usually people say "the Bible and science aren't compatible". If you didn't know, "Intelligent Design" isn't trying to connect evolution and the Bible.

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WandereroftheDeep
Post #513065 - Reply to (#513061) by FormX
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11:25 am, Dec 18 2011
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Quote from FormX
Quote from WandereroftheDeep
And let me just point out that "Intelligent Design" is a sorry excuse for a scientific theory, because the Bible and evolutionary theory really aren't compatible; a key feature of evolutionary theory is that it happens spontaniously, and so it excludes the possibility of divine intervention. But if they wish to willfully decieve themselves that's their problem, and I wish they would stop trying to make it everyone else's problem too.


LOL. Usually people say "the Bible and science aren't compatible". If you didn't know, "Intelligent Design" isn't trying to connect evolution and the Bible.


Definition of "intelligent design" taken from the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: "The assertion or belief that physical and biological systems observed in the universe result from purposeful design by an intelligent being rather than from chance or undirected natural processes".

Although the "designer" isn't specified, many, if not most of the supporters of this "theory" believe the designer to be the Christian God; therefore the people who adhere ID are trying to create compromise between evolution and the Christian faith.

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Antiquely
Post #513066 - Reply to (#513057) by WandereroftheDeep
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11:34 am, Dec 18 2011
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Quote from WandereroftheDeep
Evolution is a fact unless proven otherwise, as is the case with all scientific theories.


Actually, this is incorrect. Evolution is not a 'fact', it is what it implies which is a theory. A theory is not a fact. A theory by definition is "a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact."

It is only after a long time that a theory hasn't been disproved that it becomes a law (such as the law of gravity). In this case if evolution isn't disproved it will then become a law in return could then be regarded as fact.

Quote from WandereroftheDeep
And let me just point out that "Intelligent Design" is a sorry excuse for a scientific theory


Just pointing out that by your standards Intelligent Design is a fact because it's a theory and hasn't been disproved. As you can see this doesn't make sense...

Sorry, I'm not trying to start an argument or anything nor am I taking sides. I just thought you should know...

WandereroftheDeep
Post #513067 - Reply to (#513066) by Antiquely
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11:39 am, Dec 18 2011
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Quote from Antiquely
Quote from WandereroftheDeep
And let me just point out that "Intelligent Design" is a sorry excuse for a scientific theory


Just pointing out that by your standards Intelligent Design is a fact because it's a theory and hasn't been disproved. As you can see this doesn't make sense...


Actually, Intelligent Design doesn't qualifiy as a scientific theory since it cannot be attested or refuted on the basis of scientific experiments. It is a system of unattestable thoughts only; therefore, it is more like a philosophy than a theory.

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Post #513068 - Reply to (#513019) by eblees
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11:55 am, Dec 18 2011
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Quote from eblees
Quote from kawaiiusagichan
Yeah, I know this is just a manga forum, but I'm starting to doubt the judgement of people who claim that humans don't evolve. Well, people are free to believe what they want, but I would just like to mention that ignorance is NOT bliss. Why not read an elementary science textbook to get the gist of what evolution actually is and the overwhelming evidence towards evolution.

There are tons of data supporting evolution - observed divergent populations over just 60 generations, DNA homology sequences, rRNA, protein homology sequences, genetic code, developmental mechanisms etc etc, that it is just illogical how someone can still try and refute that it isn't true, regardless of whether God exists.

This is just daft and it's not like God isn't compatable with evolutionary principles - we call this theistic evolution. It amazes me to no end how people can indulge in such absurd confirmation bias when the evidence is staring at you right in the face - well whatever. I hope no one like that gets in power and screws up the minds of our young impressionable ones - or worse still, enter science research.

i agree with you, but the god of the Abrahamic religions is not compatible with evolution. thats why there is a huge resistance to it

Oh, I see. Thanks for enlightening me. I thought only Christians were against the entire evolution thing. Never knew Judaism and Islam were in it too.

RockIronrod
Post #513073
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1:42 pm, Dec 18 2011
Posts: 2


Faith is defined as belief in something without evidence.
There is evidence for evolution. Objectively, evolution is not faith.

Also, Intelligent Design is not a theory close to challenging evolution, any more than my theory of invisible tentacles being the reason we're attached to the earth is competition for gravity. It has no foundation or reason behind it, and literally relies soley on faith. Give proof of an intelligent designer and then it can be counted as a legitimate theory. Until then, it's just a terrible mash up of religion and science, and it doesn't even have cool space marines to make it attractive.

Quote from Antiquely
Quote from WandereroftheDeep
Evolution is a fact unless proven otherwise, as is the case with all scientific theories.


Actually, this is incorrect. Evolution is not a 'fact', it is what it implies which is a theory. A theory is not a fact. A theory by definition is "a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact."

You don't seem to understand what a scientific theory is. While it is called a "theory", it actually a fact. For example, the theory of gravity is confirmed. It is absolute fact that it exists. It's not a thought experiment or an idea. It's confirmed to the truest definition of the word.
Evolution is the same. It is accepted as truth.

RattixEmpire
Post #513075
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1:58 pm, Dec 18 2011
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Does it matter, if you believe something, there is a reason to believe it, people who believe in evolution want to believe they are created in the image of god. If they want to believe it, hard facts wont change a thing, and frankly, since people have been bickering about this since Darwin suggested the idea of evolution, I think we will be bickering for allot longer. But really why do we care, god can't be proven or unproven, neither can any of his so called miracles, so what is the point of this debate. I think we did evolve, but if god comes down one day and says no, your wrong, then cool beans, wether I evolved from an ape or not or was created in the image of god doesn't change a thing, even my religious views. I don't think they will ever change, like with the evolution, I don't care wether god exists or not, I will try to be the best person I can be and to live life the best I can, god or no god, that just doesn't change.

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JustPassingBy
Post #513116 - Reply to (#512964) by wolfinthesheep
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6:45 pm, Dec 18 2011
Posts: 54


Quote from wolfinthesheep
Quote from JustPassingBy
Science is faith. It might've been veryfied hundreds of thousands of times on different occassions under different circumstances in different areas, however that does not mean it is true. There is a reason why mathematicians start with a system of axioms (e.g. natural numbers exist) saying "okay, this is what we believe is true and we start building our theories from those chosen axioms, for we cannot prove that something is true out of nothing.".

The difference between science and religion is that logic governs all, however that does not make it true.

This is entirely false. Science is built up from observations of occurrences that are experienced, and Math is built from defined representations for concepts. Absolutely none of them are assumptions that could or could not be true. The theory of gravity was created from the observations that objects fall towards the earth, 1+1=2 is built from the definitions of the numbers that represent objects, etc.

The Theory of Evolution is not accepted as "faith". It's accepted as the best explanation for all observed facts, excluding absolutely none, with the understanding that they Theory will be modified or thrown out entirely if contradictions arise.

At no point in science are you asked to believe in things with no facts and evidence supporting them, and at no point are you asked to believe in them without compromise.


Yes, but because science is build up from observations and is based on logic, that does not make it true. I can throw a coin a million times, always yielding heads, and even if you only observed heads, and hence might conclude that tails is not an option, it is only because we were in that unprobably case with probability 2^(-1000000). You cannot say it is true just because all observation up till now hint towards it being true, because you cannot exclude the possibility of a counterexample showing up at sometime in the future.

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