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New Poll - Demographic Hate

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Sagaris
Post #589611
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5:31 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 3116


So, baniita, just who are you replying to?

Oh, never mind, just discovering some new features of the website.

caozhi
Post #589613
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Nice desu ne
Member

5:44 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 1055


Oh, and please stop insisting that the genres you like or dislike are purely based on your sexuality. That may factor into the case of genres that have sexuality as a focal point, but by no means does that prove someone's tastes are directly affected by their orientation. What you dislike is not wholly what you have experienced with the actual material. A lot of the time it is what you have experienced with the people that enjoy that material. Your hatred for them motivates your hatred for everything they enjoy. Irrational, sure. Do you care? Nope.

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Yuri for Dummies (wip)
Baniita
Post #589614 - Reply to (#589611) by Sagaris
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The Yullenator
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5:44 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 97


Hahaha, I almost thought jolly was telling ME off a while ago, until I read the "reply to post" at the top of his message.

So, yeah, talking to TaoPaiPai.

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Baniita
Post #589615 - Reply to (#589613) by caozhi
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5:47 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 97


I remember this one dude telling me once that "all straight guys find gay stuff disgusting".

I scoffed out loud at his arrogance.

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jollychick
Post #589616 - Reply to (#589600) by Baniita
Member

5:49 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 13


I mentioned that whole "large-eyed" thing because of how much yaoi I've been through. The sheer number of manga I've read is ridiculous, but I've come across many yaoi in the high school sub-genre that was oddly close to the gobs of high school shoujo I've consumed.

Case 1: The hot, popular guy that all the girls want, starts to hang around the short, quite unassuming boy (whom most of the girls overlook).
Case 2: The tall, menacingly quiet, odd ball guy, who like to stare, is always training said gaze on the spunky, loud, shorter, popular guy.
Cases 3 and 4 are usually the reverse of these two.

The same can be said about workplace romances. The yaoi mangas that takes place at an office are very similar to josei.

Case 1: The boss singling out the newbie and taking advantage of his authority.
Case 2: Two colleagues in a relationship, hiding it from the others, hit a rough patch when a superior tries to come between the secret office love birds. The predicament is that they can't tell the intruder to back off because that would expose them and have them risking their jobs.
Case 3: She (or uke he) is the boss and the new, tall, impertinent, puppy-like guy is hitting on them left and right, even in front or their co-workers. Puppy guy invites boss out for drinks and things go too far, changing their personal relationship and work dynamic.

The above are all to familiar in josei and equally as familiar in yaoi.

The idea of the male protecting the female, which seems to be the main flavor of shoujo and the like, is commonly found in yaoi as well. Something like: "seme has control issues and (typically) has more a masculine body, while the uke needs guarding because every guy on the planet wants him for his cuteness" is a plot device that has been beat like a dead donkey. It's more ridiculous when the seme pins the uke against the wall, hands above head...on the floor, hands above head...to a love hotel bed, hands above head...(I think you get the point). They're both guys, even if one is shorter, so they should be a little more evenly matched than that, especially if the uke doesn't want what's being done.

Even the..."intimate" scenes are written to have the uke react like a female, so silly, as you've mentioned. In yaoi, one guy will take an active and domineering approach while the other will, quite naturally, be passive. I get that, but it just seems like if this relationship were to pass for reality, it shouldn't be that cut and dry. A lot of these common elements are present in not only original yaoi stories, but yaoi doujinshi as well.

There's also the rape thing that bothers me. As a romance novel reader, I've often seen the tag dubious consent, but some of the things I've seen in yaoi make me cringe. Not in the "ewww" sorta way, but the "that's the most disturbing thing I've ever seen" kinda way. It's not all of them, but I've seen it enough times to know that it's not something I like or am willing to read.

actually true? You naughty, naughty girl... wink Haha

Sari90
Post #589622 - Reply to (#589609) by Baniita
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6:43 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 26


Quote
But I don't understand why they think so, because how can I get off when I'm female, and there are no females involved in what I'm reading?


There doesn't have to be a female in it order for a girl to get turned on. Men get turned on by yuri (or other lesbian stuff), so why can't a girl get turned on by yaoi (or whatever else involving m/m)? It might not turn you on, but for some others, it might.

Quote
I can't imagine myself getting involved, and I WON'T, either, because that just ruins the point of why I like BL so much.


Same.

Last edited by Sari90 at 7:15 am, Mar 5

Baniita
Post #589628 - Reply to (#589616) by jollychick
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7:10 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 97


Ugh. Been there, done that. Those are heaps of yaoi to avoid.

I also read lots of shoujo (copious amounts of manga, really), mostly for the art or when I'm bored. I rarely ever end up supporting the couple, but the stories are sometimes interesting. Sometimes, rarely, I find a story that really sticks, isn't cliche, and is actually really good. Akuma to Love Song, for one--extremely well written, with a strong, intelligent female lead with actual flaws. People think Skip Beat is overrated, but I don't think so at all. It's a shame I chose shoujo on the poll, but it's not like I had a choice.

A lot of shoujo cliches crossover into BL, yeah. Both genres are evolving for the better, thankfully. There are more and more strong female leads. Kanoko from Warau Kanoko-sama (or Koi Dano, Ai Dano), and other leads, when faced with the cliche of senior girls cornering them on the rooftop, are more often sending the bullies home crying.

Case 5: The delinquent everyone is scared of and talks smack about, and the protag is the only one treated specially and goes near him.

Well, I don't really see as much school life BL being popular anymore... It's all about salarymen and yakuza and older uke right now. (The last one, though, I don't want an older uke who's 30 and looks like he's 17! I want him to look his age, dammit!)

"The idea of the male protecting the female, which seems to be the main flavor of shoujo and the like, is commonly found in yaoi as well. " I know. And I hate them. It's like, if I want to read shoujo manga, I'll read shoujo manga, so keep out of my BL. There's an ongoing trend, however, of uke who actually know how to defend themselves, though. Yakuza uke are often like this, and there's this character in Yume Musubi, Koi Musubi in which the uke is the epitome of cliche in terms of looks--but dear god. Not only did he perform a perfect karate kick on a sexual offender, he pushed down his seme and attempted to top. And lo! He actually has a sex drive! Thank goodness, because I'm absolutely sick of the no-no-no-YES! nonsense (Koisuru Boukun being the exception).

That's because cliche yaoi uke seem to forget their motor functions when they're being attacked, apparently. What. Just--what. You'd think they know how to actually push, right? Of course, there's the excuse that "he secretly wants it" or that "his mind is too muddled to think", but then I'm like--"do you seriously expect me to believe that--they just met."

Still, there are many things with BL that shoujo manga can't satisfy me with. I ship over thirty couples from all sorts of manga, and in 80% of cases, the relationships are overly complex, unorthodox, and can't be defined as "love". It ranges from twisted love to hate-hate relationships, and it's just something that's incredibly hard to find in het. Do you have any idea how hard it is for me to find a SM couple where the top is the masochist, and the other is the sadist, and have it work?

It's not that uncommon. /shrug. Who actually pays attention to the "must be 18" thing anyway.

Back on topic. Hentai is a really wide genre. There's the acceptable, and then there's holy-hell-who-the-frig-would-write-this-abomination. Like Kuso Miso Technique. Or that Hitler one. There's a lot of loli, and it's all very controversial. So that's another issue--people will look and that and straight away think about the disturbing tentacle porn. And then there's Delivery Cinderella, but that's only borderline hentai, and actually pretty good.

Last edited by Baniita at 7:21 am, Mar 5

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Baniita
Post #589630 - Reply to (#589622) by Sari90
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The Yullenator
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7:16 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 97


Yeah, except guys who like lesbians and get turned on think about getting involved and turn it into a threesome. e _e)"

I know it turns some girls on, but I still don't get it, though. I'd like to think it's just because they imagine themselves getting involved, but I don't think that's true for the most part. Or maybe they imagine themselves as one of the guys, which makes more sense, I guess? I find it hot, I scream inhuman noises into my pillow, fangirl and such, but fapping to it doesn't work for me.

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Sari90
Post #589632 - Reply to (#589630) by Baniita
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7:28 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 26


I guess everyone's mind works differently? Some could just be imagining it from a third person point of view as well. You don't have to imagine yourself in something to get turned on by it. They are probably turned on by the fact it is two men going at it? (It is hot, what can I say lol). I'm not just talking about yaoi, but other things (such as gay erotica novels for example) as well.

Quote
I find it hot, I scream inhuman noises into my pillow, fangirl and such, but fapping to it doesn't work for me.


It's the same for me in yaoi or any other manga for that fact. minus the screaming lol

Last edited by Sari90 at 10:21 pm, Mar 5

gwkimmy
Post #589640 - Reply to (#589282) by kirabook
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Member

8:10 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 270


i think you're reading wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much into it. there are no expectations for your tastes. you like what you like and dislike what you dislike.

i only read and enjoy yaoi because the great ones have the best and most interesting romantic relationship dynamics i have EVER read in any manga. there is a lot of shit yaoi out there, as there is in any genre, but the couple dynamic in the well written ones beat out the couples in the shoujos, joseis and seinens ive read, hands down. that is all. but that's just my taste.

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PansyWansyLinsy
Post #589641 - Reply to (#589323) by lynira
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Fujoshi
Member

8:15 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 132


Quote from lynira
Actually, that may be one of the reasons hatred for BL is so strong. People who don't like yaoi very quickly become annoyed when yaoi manga and doujinshi pop up everywhere they look.

Another reason may be the hatred for BL fans... the stereotype is a squealing and drooling, obsessive, brainless, ...

As for me, even though I am opposed to the bottom five choices for moral reasons, I wouldn't say I "hate" them... I just think it'd be best for everyone if those kinds of manga weren't around. Anyway, I guess I will pick yaoi, because out of the bottom five, I find it the most annoying. I'm tired of seeing so much of it, and also I find the typical yaoi art style terrible (mainly the faces).

This gets to the heart of the matter. I get the feeling that a lot of the yaoi/shounen-ai hate is not due entirely to the content itself, but from the backlash against the culture surrounding boy's love. It's the equivalent to the Twilight phenomenon. Most of the mocking detractors against Twilight (myself included, I'll admit) are merely reacting to the fan girl phenomenon and not necessarily to the material iitself - material I'd daresay that most of the naysayers haven't even fully read or explored.

Or it's due to its "perceived" overwhelming presence and people's irrational belief that they're having something shoved down their throat (basically all the people who are complaining about seeing all the yaoi/shounen-ai on online reader sites). As if that was a rational reason to single out and totally dismiss/dislike an entire genre.

I'm not entirely sure I understand your reasoning either? What exactly is typical yaoi art? Like all the other genres, it's quite diverse in art styles.

To wit, what about these styles makes them so similar so that they all resemble the "typical yaoi style"? : Hidaka Shoko, Natsume Isaku, Kou Yoneda, or Yugi Yamada

And don't worry people, nothing in those pictures will induce vomiting or trigger anyone's delicate gag reflex roll eyes


Quote from Baniita
...There aren't a lot, but heterosexual fudanshi (male equivalent of fujoshi) do exist.

I don't know why the only fudanshi I've ever encountered are Japanese. It's probably a sub-cultural thing. Sure, Asian countries are a lot less more open-minded, and Japan is no exception, but... Oh boy, Japan. BL is huuuuuge. It still boggles my mind how many male seiyuu that are straight voice for BL roles.

That's it, I'm moving to Japan. Only then shall I feel fully accepted and normal amongst my boy lovin' brethren (and I say this as a female b/c, really, where else would I be more likely to also find straight guys who like yaoi?)

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gwkimmy
Post #589642 - Reply to (#589320) by themasterwarlord
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Member

8:16 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 270


homophobia is the treatment of gay people as an "other" for example treating them differently (usually in a more negative manner) than you would heterosexuals. it's bad because it's like being racist (the treatment of minority ethnicities as "other"). gay people just want to be treated like you would anyone else. they're not going to eat you.

hating yaoi isn't homophobic, in my opinion. hating yaoi simply because it contains gay people in it, however, is homophobic.

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Nirhtuc
Post #589649 - Reply to (#589372) by gekokujou
Member

10:16 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 177


I still have no idea what ecchi is! I thought it's another word for hentai. Better go find out once and for all...

Nirhtuc
Post #589651 - Reply to (#589604) by jollychick
Member

10:22 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 177


Personally, reading about a man and a woman falling in love is grotesque to some people. Hope you're ok with that then! biggrin

Nirhtuc
Post #589653 - Reply to (#589204) by SlyzertVoltrond
Member

10:34 am, Mar 5 2013
Posts: 177


How can anybody hate hentai?? lol. If we're talking fetishes, I guess yaoi totally meets mine!
I consider myself to be a fairly informed hentai disliker because I have read about 6 or 7 widely different but popular hentai manga. I really can't stand the art though, because these things gross me out rather than turn me on:

1. Boobies that fill the whole page- ten times the size of a real female boob (or more), also boy parts that are as big as bulldozers eek
2. Liquids liquids spurting everywhere from all possible bodily orifices... eek
3. Surprising prevalence of beastiality! Whyyy?
4. Women (and sometimes men/boys) that look like preschoolers no

I definitely wouldn't mind seeing sex on every single page if it wasn't for the above factors. I dunno- maybe guys are really into this stuff! roll eyes

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