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LawX
Post #543210
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Masculine Devil
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4:55 am, Apr 1 2012
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I believe in the power of nine.

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Binturong
Post #543211
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4:57 am, Apr 1 2012
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999 is actually 666 upside down, thus in opposition to the Devil. Thus, I offer my wholehearted support to Mr. Cain for the 2012 election.

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Crenshinibon
Post #543212
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4:58 am, Apr 1 2012
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Because the ninth dream begins after every ending.

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kaerfehtdeelb
Post #543216
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5:00 am, Apr 1 2012
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Each of us... is chosen. We all have our own mission if we look inside. You just might be surprised at what you can do. It begins with believing. It starts with your heart and flows through the soul. Just imagine what life would be like if we could stand in unity. Each of us holds the key. We can make the world a better place.

Kaioh
Post #543236
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5:19 am, Apr 1 2012
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Quote from xtr3m3dude
Also, if by "theory of everything" you are referring to string theory, it's not just his theory.

No, I literally mean the Theory of Everything he is working on. As far as I know, he's basing most of it off of M-Theory, which is itself based off of string theory.
Quote from xtr3m3dude
I am not sure you understand what an opinion is. Opinions can be and often are wrong. An opinion is a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

Its foolish to only see a single aspect of the definition of the word opinion, and then go on telling people they do not understand the meaning of the word. Look at the word as a whole, and then reread what I wrote and try to understand which meaning of the word I was using, because you clearly did not do so.
For the record, I would be using the second definition posted in your link. Opinions can not be wrong, because they are personal views. The only way they can be wrong is if you change your view, and admit that your previous view was wrong.
Quote from xtr3m3dude
Yeah I understand that this is free will and we should accept that people will made their own choices regardless of whether or not they are informed. That's why I said "in a perfect world", I know very well it is an unachievable ideal. While we are on the topic of ideals, I can't understand how you believe everyone in the world is equal. The reality is that people are not equal, not even in communist regimes. If everyone was "equal" we would have some sort of dystopian society where everyone was treated the same way, wore the same clothes, ate the same food, etc... People would lose their identities.

Fair enough, my idea of equality is that people should all be treated fairly and equally. I know it doesn't happen. That doesn't change the fact that I believe myself to be equal to any other person. If you not feel the same, thats fine.

Quote from Alaena Night
You are stating here that if a parent shares his or her beliefs with his or her children, then that child has been indoctrinated. You seem to be underestimating the children, who are perfectly capable of making their own decisions as they grow. For example, parents "indoctrinate" their children into believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. As children grow, they shed these beliefs because their observations in the real world do not square with what their parents have taught them.
Additionally, by your logic, all children are indoctrinated. After all, telling your children that "killing is wrong," and "you shouldn't tear your sisters hair out," and "If strange men offer you candy, don't accept it, and call for help!" is a sort of indoctrination. After all, they are making fact statements about ultimate reality (what is wrong and right, what should not be done, what we should believe). If they choose to share their parents' beliefs, that is their responsibility. Please don't brush Christianity away with such fragile logic. I feel like it's an insult to intellectualism.

Do you not understand what the word indoctrinate means? My statement holds true because it is true. Everything you said is true, as well. Everyone is indoctrinated to a point. You also seem to be seeing things implied where they are not. I was clearly speaking of religious indoctrination, and you took that as meaning I was against common sense, as well.
Quote from Alaena Night
Quote
Science wasn't created by man. It existed before humanity did.

By what logic do you make that assertion? The statement in itself is philosophical and just as wishy-washy as "God created the universe in seven days."

Simple, really. Many things existed before we did. Just because we weren't here to do science, doesn't mean scientific things did not happen. A Super Nova, for example. Just because we did not exist to say it happend, and was a part of science, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Science existed long before we began observing it. The only way your statement makes sense is if you believe that the point that humans started existing was the point when all of existence began, and thats just not true.
Quote from Alaena Night
You are correct. MICRO-EVOLUTION, the evolution that occurs when species change, evolve, and improve, has been documented multiple times. However, we have never once documented a single case of a species (for example, apes) changing into another, distinctly separate species.
Claiming that macro-evolution is true because micro-evolution is true is like claiming that because Ernest Hemingway was a drunkard, every famous writer indulges in drink. You're taking a single, specific observation and applying it to everything.

Thats interesting. You admit I am correct, and yet for some reason still wish to argue the point. The funny part is, you stated yourself the very definition of evoluion, which is when species change, evolve, and improve themselves to move forward. That is evolution. Whether that leap be a few small changes, to a giant change, its still evolution.
Quote from Alaena Night
Quote
Humanity will evolve someday, too. Although I have very little doubts in my mind religious people will claim its some sort of "gift from God", instead of seeing it for what it really is.

This statement is philosophical in nature (it cannot be scientifically proven) and is based just as much on blind faith as the beliefs of the average Christian, (which should not be; Christianity was never meant to be based on BLIND faith. There's a difference between jumping off a cliff and believing that God will catch you and taking a deep breath before stepping onto a rickety bridge.
Everyone operates in this world by faith. You believe when you sit down that your chair will hold your weight, for example.

Indeed, it is philisophical. I never once stated it was anything more than an opinion. You seem to be taking everything I say somewhat out of context.
I disagree. Not everyone operates on faith. Thats your belief, and you're free to have it. Personally, to use the same metaphor, I believe my chair will be just fine because its well constructed and properly maintained.
Quote from Alaena Night
Quote
Religious people are going to be extremely angry when Stephen Hawking finishes his Theory of Everything. It will, as a side effect, probably disprove Gods existence.

Stephen Hawking is an eminently intelligent and respectable man. However, if you look just a little ways back, he's eaten his own words. First, his theories allowed for a creator, but then he "discovered" that a creator was unlikely. "Science" though it may be, he has proven himself wrong once.
I apologize if I seem a little brusque. I don't claim to own even a single drop in the sea of knowledge related to these fields (there's far too much to know), but I just find it amusing that people seem intent to take the moral high ground when they, themselves, are making ridiculous philosophical assumptions without proper knowledge of their own field.

Yes. Hawking did account for a God in various theories he created. But if you do proper research, you'll know he stopped accouting for that around the time his marriage feel apart. He's also used God as a metaphor for various things in his books.
I personally don't see how anyone here is making ridiculous assumptions. I made a statement that clearly angered you. You're free to be angry with it, thats up to you. But the fact is its my opinion based on how I see things. Your goal here was to try and disaprove my opinions, and thats just not going to happen. But your condescension hasn't done anything to change my opinions.

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Sagaris
Post #543275
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6:51 am, Apr 1 2012
Posts: 3116


I forgot it was the first of April in some people's time zones already, so I thought mai was suffering from bintuism for a moment.

xtr3m3dude
Post #543510 - Reply to (#543236) by Kaioh
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KYOKUGEN !!!
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3:04 pm, Apr 2 2012
Posts: 877


Quote from Kaioh
Its foolish to only see a single aspect of the definition of the word opinion, and then go on telling people they do not understand the meaning of the word. Look at the word as a whole, and then reread what I wrote and try to understand which meaning of the word I was using, because you clearly did not do so.
For the record, I would be using the second definition posted in your link. Opinions can not be wrong, because they are personal views. The only way they can be wrong is if you change your view, and admit that your previous view was wrong.

The sentence in bold is a fallacy. Just because something is a personal view doesn't prove that it can't be wrong. In fact I already provided an example that leaves no room for argument: thinking that the Earth is flat. That is an opinion which is not correct. It is fact that the Earth isn't flat. You can't argue with facts. There are many other examples that could be provided. Just use google if you still refuse to believe me... Using the second definition doesn't change a thing...
Quote from Kaioh
The only way they can be wrong is if you change your view, and admit that your previous view was wrong.

...Aw c'mon! That's not even logical... In that situation you just convince yourself of something else and in your own mind your previous stand you are wrong. But admitting you are wrong doesn't necessarily make your previous view wrong in the first place! You could just be led to believe you were wrong in a variety of situations (math class for example). Basically what you believe to be true is irrelevant. What matters is what is actually true (scientific laws for example). Yes there are many cases where there is no absolute truth, but that is why we must build on our previous knowledge of what is true. That's the only way to know for sure, and that is how science operates.

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johnpaulang38
Post #543514
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3:35 pm, Apr 2 2012
Posts: 15


I'm an Atheist

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Blood_Wolf
Post #543518
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4:04 pm, Apr 2 2012
Posts: 19


I'm Atheist.
WARNING: These are my views. If you read this then I can't guarentee that you won't be offended. These are my opinions and I AM ENTITLED TO THEM just as you are entitled to yours.
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
Personally I don't see the likelihood in the prescence in a "God". My views on it is that it's just something humankind created to explain the unexplaninable, give people something to fear to keep Society in a state of Order and/or to shift blame/responsibility onto in times of great hardship or despair. [Please don't make links to this to the present because here I am talking about the "creation of God" in mankinds views thousands of years ago. People may believe in the existence of "God" for all sorts of reasons nowadays. I don't think having such a view is a bad thing. In fact I think it's a good thing to have a sense of belief in a God for many reasons]

I believe in what can be proven and what seems logical to me. That the universe was created by the Big Bang. The Big Bang was created out of nothing [This is possible since a Black Hole is an entity where it sucks things into nothingness. with this being the case the inverse is also possible]. since it's created from nothing [and Time doesn't exist where there is nothing] there was no time for a God to have created the Big Bang. Therefore the likelihood of a God existing that created the universe and all life seems improbable to me. Ofcourse there may not be enough evidence to say this is for certain, but it's something that I believe in. However that's not to say the idea of God is something that should be gotten rid of. It's something that gives people hope no matter where they are or what situation they may be in.


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the-burden
Post #543519
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4:13 pm, Apr 2 2012
Posts: 284


Jedi.

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xtr3m3dude
Post #543527
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KYOKUGEN !!!
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4:48 pm, Apr 2 2012
Posts: 877


Quote from Alaena Night
You are correct. MICRO-EVOLUTION, the evolution that occurs when species change, evolve, and improve, has been documented multiple times. However, we have never once documented a single case of a species (for example, apes) changing into another, distinctly separate species.

I don't know what you mean by documented. I hope you don't mean "first-hand observations" because that would be ridiculous as macroevolution is thought to take place over a very long period of time. It's not an evolutionary jump from raptors to birds from one generation to the next (raptor lays egg, bird comes out of egg). There is plenty of evidence of macroevolution. It is evident that birds evolved from raptors (or they had a common ancestor, etc...), their respective DNA signatures have striking similarities.
Quote from Alaena Night
Additionally, the Theory of Evolution hinges upon the great question of HOW IT ALL STARTED. Scientists themselves admit that, although they can trace the evolution of the world back to a microsecond before the world "began," they have no idea what "set off" the reaction that set into motion the beginning of the universe. They have theorized that (and I simplify this greatly) particles formed (out of the vast nothingness) and collided (in the vast nothingness) and exploded (into the vast nothingness) to create EVERYTHING.

How it all started? You start off, talking about scientists tracing evolution back to (a single micro-organism, which is the common ancestor of all life on Earth) and then jump to the microsecond (where the universe began with the Big Bang). You continue on to talk about particles coming in and out of existence, and claim that they just "theorized" that this happens and are just talking out of their hypothetical asses. Even though you say you simplify things greatly... you make no sense at all in this paragraph and judging by what you wrote you clearly know close to nothing on these separate subject matters (evolutionary biology or astrophysics or quantum mechanics)...

Watch this whole video, it even has a bit on quantum mechanics at about 30:30:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpb7NMR-XOo
As for more on quantum mechanics, it's not like it's hard to find more info or easy to digest videos. Protons do jump in and out of existence and it has been observed. It's not "just a theory". Science is based on observations. At CERN they accelerate and smash protons with the Large Hadron Collider, the world's biggest particle accelerator and they make and record observations, for example.

For the origin of the universe, you need to read physics. For evolution on Earth you need biology and microbiology books. You can read books such as The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution by Richard Dawkins to see just how much evidence there is. If you still find evolution funny read some chemistry textbooks to see just how organisms work... Until then you cannot expect to argue and be taken seriously.
Quote from Alaena Night
I'm sorry, but you'll have to forgive me for saying that idea seems even more preposterous to me than the idea of an omnipotent creator setting everything in motion. In addition, the logistics of the evolution of the first complex organism are hilarious to me.

No forgiveness for you. You did not even put in the effort into learning about and researching the things you are talking about... yet claim to know about the "logistics of the evolution of the first complex organism" and their hilarity... What the fcuk does that even mean? What complex organism? You mean a multicellular organism? The first ever? Look... please, if you are interested in biology and microbiology just take a course or just buy a university level textbook and read it.
Quote from Alaena Night
This statement is philosophical in nature (it cannot be scientifically proven) and is based just as much on blind faith as the beliefs of the average Christian, (which should not be; Christianity was never meant to be based on BLIND faith. There's a difference between jumping off a cliff and believing that God will catch you and taking a deep breath before stepping onto a rickety bridge.

Everyone operates in this world by faith. You believe when you sit down that your chair will hold your weight, for example.

That statement he made is based on natural selection, which was in fact scientifically proven. Christianity is completely based on blind faith, although only Jesus can tell you what it was meant to be based on. I can't even imagine how you can think Christianity isn't based on blind faith... Your jumping cliff argument... and taking a breath before stepping on rickety bridge... Makes no sense: how taking a deep breath relates to putting your faith in God I do not understand. Not everyone operates on faith. I know how my chair works through trial and error.
Quote from Alaena Night
Stephen Hawking is an eminently intelligent and respectable man. However, if you look just a little ways back, he's eaten his own words. First, his theories allowed for a creator, but then he "discovered" that a creator was unlikely. "Science" though it may be, he has proven himself wrong once.

You don't understand what "science" is and how it works. Please remedy the situation.
Quote from Alaena Night
I apologize if I seem a little brusque. I don't claim to own even a single drop in the sea of knowledge related to these fields (there's far too much to know), but I just find it amusing that people seem intent to take the moral high ground when they, themselves, are making ridiculous philosophical assumptions without proper knowledge of their own field.

Believe me nobody thinks you own even a single drop in the sea of knowledge related to these fields. In my opinion though, you should really start gathering those drops one at a time. You really don't see the double standard of pointing out how people are making ridiculous assumptions without proper knowledge? As for moral ground, the people backing their statements with facts and science are absolutely not taking the high ground. It is the people who hold some religious views or other that always claim to know moral from immoral.

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Rushmoar
Post #543536 - Reply to (#543510) by xtr3m3dude
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6:59 pm, Apr 2 2012
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Quote from xtr3m3dude
The sentence in bold is a fallacy. Just because something is a personal view doesn't prove that it can't be wrong. In fact I already provided an example that leaves no room for argument: thinking that the Earth is flat. That is an opinion which is not correct. It is fact that the Earth isn't flat. ...


Your example doesn't make much sense, it's like asking your friend, after just watching a movie, his opinion of the movie. His response being "I think it was a movie". The argument is whether it was a movie or not, but whether he thinks it was good, bad, cool, stupid, etc. Which is what I think Kaioh is saying that can't be proven wrong. So in the example you provided, the opinion wouldn't be that they think that the world is flat but that they think its a good idea. In short, having an opinion on false facts doesn't make the opinion about the facts false. Maybe.


xtr3m3dude
Post #543540 - Reply to (#543536) by Rushmoar
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KYOKUGEN !!!
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7:39 pm, Apr 2 2012
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Quote from Rushmoar
Your example doesn't make much sense, it's like asking your friend, after just watching a movie, his opinion of the movie. His response being "I think it was a movie". The argument is [not] whether it was a movie or not, but whether he thinks it was good, bad, cool, stupid, etc. Which is what I think Kaioh is saying that can't be proven wrong. So in the example you provided, the opinion wouldn't be that they think that the world is flat but that they think its a good idea. In short, having an opinion on false facts doesn't make the opinion about the facts false. Maybe.

I think you can't understand what I am saying because English might not be your first language. The argument I made has nothing to do with movies... but fine, I will give examples with a movie.

1. Giving an opinion on whether or not a movie was good or bad is subjective. That means it's not necessarily right or wrong and it can be argued either way.
2. Giving an opinion on whether a character got shot in the movie is not subjective. Just because you missed the part where someone got shot doesn't mean they didn't get shot. Understand?

The example I was making has to do with facts. The Earth is an oblate spheroid. The Earth revolves around the Sun. A few hundred years ago people did not know these facts and had different opinions on these matters. People thought that the Earth was flat. They thought it was the center of the universe and that the Sun revolved around the Earth, etc... The opinions on the universe they had were wrong. Read about Galileo.

Because we were discussing religion and religious opinions on the universe, I tried in vain to explain that opinions can and often are wrong when it comes to certain subjects which are not up for debate. You cannot debate facts. Therefore if you have an opinion that is contrary to fact you are wrong. It's very easy to understand actually. Ask yourself or a teacher if you go to school, about having an opinion on facts.

Last edited by xtr3m3dude at 7:46 pm, Apr 2

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Joentjuh
Post #543541 - Reply to (#543540) by xtr3m3dude
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8:08 pm, Apr 2 2012
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Quote from xtr3m3dude
I think you can't understand what I am saying because English might not be your first language. The argument I made has nothing to do with movies... but fine, I will give examples with a movie.

1. Giving an opinion on whether or not a movie was good or bad is subjective. That means it's not necess ...


Euhm, you might want to re-check your sources, wikipedia quote because I'm lazy.

"The paradigm of a spherical Earth was developed in Greek astronomy, beginning with Pythagoras (6th century BC), although most Pre-Socratics retained the flat Earth model. Aristotle accepted the spherical shape of the Earth on empirical grounds around 330 BC, and knowledge of the spherical Earth gradually began to spread beyond the Hellenistic world from then on.23[4]5 The misconception that educated Europeans at the time of Columbus believed in a flat Earth, and that his voyages refuted that belief, has been referred to as "The Myth of the Flat Earth".[6] In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history.7" -- Wikipedia

I agree with the rest of your argument though smile

P.S. dictionary says it all.
opinion ~ noun common
1. a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty

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Rushmoar
Post #543551 - Reply to (#543540) by xtr3m3dude
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9:08 pm, Apr 2 2012
Posts: 2


Quote from xtr3m3dude
1. Giving an opinion on whether or not a movie was good or bad is subjective. That means it's not necessarily right or wrong and it can be argued either way.
2. Giving an opinion on whether a character got shot in the movie is not subjective...


You're right, I guess I misunderstood, my bad.



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