I was just reading Shitsurakuen, and I realized, again, how much I hate to see gross subjugation of any group of people, and how much I absolutely detest misogyny. Seriously.

Why am I putting this in the general S/S forum? Because it's a prevalent theme in some manga, so it seems. Even in manga with strong female characters, like Medaka Box, the misogyny, while less pronounced than the the former, is still strikingly prevalent.

Anyone else think that shit is whack?

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Livin just to keep from dyin

I haven't read either of the mangas, but the synopsis for Shitsurakuen certainly sounds stupid. But then beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I'm sure there are some people(including girls) who love such mangas and I'm not here to judge them. In my opinion there are plenty of stupid mangas out there and this is just one of them. It's probably a good idea to just ignore it and not sweat about it.

I detest misogyny too and I think anything that depicts women as stupid, useless, dependent and weak (like several shoujo mangas, as example) shouldn't read for anyone. It's brain wash to keep women thinking that they are worthless.

And Jerryshaw, your position is conservative and coward. There is freedom of speech in this world. People should know that crap is crap.

That wasn't the point. There are good points about that particular manga, but the point was the misogyny, not the manga/story itself.

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Livin just to keep from dyin

Hi daniyagami, I wasn't trying to be neutral and non-controversial. While I too agree that misogyny is unenlightened, manga is a form of an escapist entertainment and therefore as long as there are plenty of people enjoying that particular concept, then what I think about it is irrelevant. For example, I think loli-beastiality-guro-scat hentai is disgusting and without much value to the society. That's just my opinion and thousands of people fapping to that particular genre will strongly disagree with me. I can spend eternity arguing about it and nothing will come of it. Rather than wasting my time and energy being upset over something I think is disgusting, I find it easier to just ignore it and let others enjoy it in peace.

Of course, if you believe that misogyny in manga/anime will actually perpetuate such stereotype in reality and influence younger generations to ideas that you find offensive, then by all means do what you believe is necessary. It's just that I don't believe manga has such significant influence in people, so it doesn't matter to me. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a stupid concept. If people find that reading such things are fun and amusing, then let them enjoy it.

And hi ahoaho, I see your point. It's just that to me, when a manga has such a frustrating and unrealistic concept as a basis for the storyline, I usually don't find the manga fun even if there are some good points. I guess my tolerance for frustration is lower than most people? LOL I don't know. Don't let my weird philosophy get to you guys.

I'm starting to become unfazed by the stuff and instead just not read it, or ignore the subtle hints. How is the concept behind Shitsurakuen (yes I once read the synopsis and I wasn't impressed) be vastly different form Sekirei which pretty much is the same concept-wise.

Sekirei goes into a more less serious role while Shitsurakuen goes for blatant seriousness in its content, and in the end Shitsurakuen comes out as being misogynist while I'll still consider Sekirei as being sexist. I think misogynist is a very strong word, and it can't really be used unqualified, I could easily say its sexist but for me to truly say it has crossed that threshold is very hard. I could say a lot of mangas have sexist undertone but to say that these mangaka have a generally 'hate' of women (Misogyny = a hatred of women, as a sexually defined group) is very hard to judge. If anything I think that the smut genre is a lot closer to misogyny than most.

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First off, you seem to have misogyny mixed up with sexism. Sexism is the act of feeling that the opposite sex is inferior. The abuse seen can be seen as "Putting the woman in it's place," but does not tend to exhibit absolute hatred that misogyny represents.

That being said, I see titles in your read and reading list that exhibit the same kind of "woman used for power" idea that backs this. So my question is what makes this so much more wrong than say, My-Hime? Is it that the women are actually overtly controlled (as in where you don't have to actually look all that hard to see it), or does something else factor in that makes these just that much more horrible, but that makes those fine to read?

Besides, if we want to get really technical, you can say any manga that exhibits girls as sexual objects or has girls that conform to a basic norm. as sexist. That means Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu, Clannad, Kanon, most shoujo and others like them can be construed as overtly sexist, as well as anything beyond extremely slight ecchi. This means most of what you've read, ahoaho, have sexist themes.

Now to take the manga into context. It's, while not overtly doing so, is trying to say, much like Revolutionary Girl Utena, that subjugation of a woman in such a manner is wrong. That's why the protagonist is FEMALE, instead of being another man who would most likely view the women in the game as FAKE. It makes it infinitely easier to use and abuse them when they aren't real to you. Whether it fails or not is up to the person reading it.

Now for the people who would read this, I have a hard time believing that most of the fan base of this particular manga are viewing it specifically for the sexist ideas exhibited. I see most of them viewing it as I have stated above, a woman empowerment story much on the same lines as Utena, and that is exhibited through the comments/reviews. Some have even gone as far as to say it's a rip off of Utena but for an audience of boys instead of girls. That doesn't scream, "Fan base is completely sexist!" to me.

For now, I'm going to agree with JerryShaw. Fight it when it takes a basis in real life, but until it does, I'm going to ignore it.



Viewing something as "crap" is an OPINION. I'm not going to view the same things you do as utter crap. In fact, I might actually find that my favorite manga is, to you, bullshit. That doesn't make it any less good for me, and I would appreciate it if you would stop stating your opinion as if it were absolute FACT.

Also, what's wrong with being conservative? I find it easier to conserve my energy for a fight I actually want to fight and actually believe in, than to take every fight I see. Being overly proactive takes too much out of people and puts, as you put it, a lot of crap to the forefront when a better battle could be fought, so pardon me for not being a proactive type of person.

Your right to free speech gives you the right to say this and be condescending to me because I take this type of action, but you have no right to imply that just because you believe something to be crap means I, or others, should view it as crap too.

Maaleee doomminaaans

EFF TEEE DOUBLE YOUUUUU

8DDDDDDD

asian countries tend to look down upon women.

probably as more generations pass by it'll be women that look down on men though.

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"everybody and everything have a reason for being what society calls 'stupid', HOWEVER, people are too impatient or dont care111!! ROFL! =)" INCLUDING ME!!

You do realize that the freedom of speech you are speaking of is the same freedom that allows these books to be published, right? It is also the same freedom that allows Jerryshaw to to say whatever he wants.

Also, your conservative standpoint bashing isn't very liberal of you and makes me feel very discriminated against. You should examine yourself before throwing stones.

I am in no way saying misogyny is acceptable, but I do believe people that like to claim freedoms should not argue that others should not have them.

While, I'm not particularly going to push my point, nay, I'm not even going to explain it very well, but I thought I should put it out there.

I personally think you're over-reacting. Its not like this concept is particularly new, especially to manga. I see it over and over again. It may take different forms, true, but its almost ALWAYS there. The only genre I can think of which this does occur in over 50% of what I read (of that genre) is Seinen (and probably Josei, too, but I don't read enough of that genre to say anything about it.). I'm not saying its not wrong, but I'm saying that you shouldn't be so surprised/disgusted by it. In some genres, such as Hentai, it is a such a prevalent theme that I don't think I've ever read a hentai that did not contain it in some shape or form.

Let us also draw attention to the fact that you can ignore it, and simply chose not to read such manga, if you so wish. No one is stopping you.

I too, am agreeing with Jerryshaw. Its not like its real life; it is fake. I simply do not see the point in putting time and energy fighting against something when it has a very limited (if any) effect on real life. Some people enjoy it, so let them enjoy it in peace, as long as they don't try it in the real world, and let it stay on the manga page, where it belongs.


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Back to the topic. A while back, I did read something so out-there that it made me say out loud, "What the f...?" I was skimming through Worst and I got to the part where some annoying kid tricked two huge gangs into fighting each other. After much bloodshed, the evil plot was discovered and the mastermind behind the whole scheme was caught. And this is the part that gets my blood boiling. Once the culprit was in their hands, they decided to let him go while PRAYING for him. I think the line was something like this, "All we can do is pray for his soul..."

While I have no problem with bunch of high school boys roaming around in groups fighting other groups of boys to prove their place in the world, I find it just wrong when a gangster goes out of his character and basically says, "Let's pray for our enemy who has caused us much mayhem and chaos, not to mention indirectly causing our fellow gang members to be hospitalized."

Now it has been a while and I may have missed something. I did go through the manga awfully quick, but in my opinion, that character should promptly quit the gang, join a church fellowship and go on missions to spread the gospel.

When a girl browbeats a guy over and over and over again, I find myself losing interest in the anime/manga. I absolutely hate it, and it exhibits the same sexist thoughts as these manga, and besides, I find most stories that overworks this to not be all that good. I'm talking about stories such as InuYasha where the girl tends to be helpless the rest of the time. I'm not referring to manga where this happens slightly, such as Fullmetal Alchemist, fighting manga where the girl is strong enough to actually beat a guy, such as Ikki Tousen, or manga where the girl has a personality of a guy, such as Tenshi na Konamaiki.

Please give me examples of the misogyny I have never come across it in manga