manga04_jpg login_tab_left_jpg
Username:   Password:    Forgot Password?
App
Try out our new iPhone application!
App
Manga Poll
Do you think loli / shota should be illegal or banned?
Yes / Yes
Yes / No
No / Yes
No / No
Don't care
 
See Old Polls

Manga is the Japanese equivalent of comics
with a unique style and following. Join the revolution! Read some manga today!

Coded in ConTEXT

Join #baka-updates @irc.irchighway.net

RSS Feed
 
center_left_tab Forums center_right_tab

You are now viewing a topic.

What turns you off... about a manga.

Back to Manga General


Pages (20) [ First ... 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ... Last ] Next You must be registered to post!
From User Message Body
mogiks
Post #512252 - Reply to (#512148) by yuno19
user avatar
Member

3:01 pm, Dec 13 2011
Posts: 797


Quote from yuno19
i never call my teacher, teacher (insert name here). I call them, Mr (blabla) or Mrs (blabla). this is the point i try to pass. nuances. If words cannot be translated, a nuances need to be applied, either directly or indirectly. either in that particular word, or hidden elsewhere in the sentence.

you can hide -kun or left out honorific (only name basis) by using nuances in greetings. for example, instead of "Tamura-kun, good morning," you can use "Yo, Tamura! wassup!" -chan by, "G'morning Yukiko smile " -san by, "Good morning, Matsuzawa." you can't help but notice politeness when you compare Yo! G'morning, and Good morning, held different nuances.


But to mess around with the translation like that can mean you diverge quite significantly from what an author genuinely intended. That is a sign of very poor translation. You have to mantain a compromise between making it understandable to readers from your culture/country etc., and preserving what the author intended. I don't like putting words in character's mouths. No matter how well you think you know the character, if they say "ohayou, Tamura-kun," that is not adequate information to support a change into "Yo, Tamura! wassup!" And as for "G'morning Yukiko-san" to "Good morning Matsuzawa" - it's still not a Western thing to call people by their family names in many situations. Yes, you can convey the politeness from the Japanese with lexical nuances in English, but I believe there is only so much you can do. There is a reason many manga readers complain when English publishers use a translation that is too westernized. It makes the manga into something it is not. It doesn't sound right and the ways of translating what is untranslateable are going to alter very subtle dynamics between characters. Because the manga is not set in the West, it's set in Japan, and the culture you see within the manga - the visual cues, the character's behaviour, the story - does not translate, and it will clash with a Westernized translation. Manga readers want to have the honorific suffixes -there is always a backlash when they're taken out - and I find it really offensive that you would imply leaving them in is a sign of a bad/inexperienced translator. Of the manga I have bought in English, I think the more masterful translations are the ones where the translator left in such things.

Quote
but well, by using footnote, it means translator admitting his/her not so masterful competency.


This might be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Putting in footnotes is a sign of weakness in translations?! Some things just do not translate, no matter how masterful the translator is. In some cases this thing might be vital to the story, the characters, or the reader's understanding of the scene. Rather than finding a clumsy insufficient approximation of the word/concept in English, a small footnote can enlighten the reader and preserve everything the author intended.

Anyway, this is pretty much off-topic roll eyes but I feel very strongly about this as a Japanese major with quite a lot of translation experience in manga. It seems to me like you don't truly understand the difficulties of translating from Japanese to English.

________________
世界のどこかに 必ず
キミの居場所が ある筈
XStarMelonX
Post #512317
user avatar
Member

3:26 am, Dec 14 2011
Posts: 18


1 they lie in the description...like saying...oh, this manga is about explosions, and sweaty dudes boxing, and your like oh hey, this will be worth a read, then when you DO read it, its COMPLETELY different that what the description says...I HATE that..
2 if the manga goes on FOREVER..like those manga where its all interesting in the beginning, then it gets to a point where its not AS interesting and just plainly DOSNT go along with the main story line anymore, and just has a bunch of fillers *cough*bleach*cough*

________________
*~its your life, you may as well live it~*
yuno19
Post #512342 - Reply to (#512252) by mogiks
user avatar
still lurqing
Member

4:42 am, Dec 14 2011
Posts: 328


Quote from mogiks
but I feel very strongly about this as a Japanese major with quite a lot of translation experience in manga. It seems to me like you don't truly understand the difficulties of translating from Japanese to English.

it seems to me you are a very strong supporter for 'some words is untranslatable thus better to leave 'em untouched.' while I am a strong supporter for 'maximize the destination language capability to convey meaning from original one.' you see left-out meaning is my weakness. i see your incomplete translation is your weakness. and it seems, unfortunate for me, manga fan is mostly in agreement to your opinion.

my argument in footnote is not as ridiculous as you want to think. if you could put the least amount of words to carry the meaning, why add more in the footnote? footnote is, indeed, to clarify things. but that's only if you have put all your might in the text's body yet its still not quite right. you should not disrupt the flow.

it would sounds like hate-message, but i only mean to clearly convey my point,
'it seems to me you haven't experienced the difficulty in translating other than japanese into english or others. it seems to me you haven't feel the gratefulness of 'oh thank god, we actually has this word.' here i say, japan is not the only complex, full of nuances, language. and english, isn't as incapable as you thought in delivering meaning.'

i don't take language major. japanese; as well as english, french, german, and italian; is not my mother language but i know well languages can have multiple level of politeness, as well as variety. i do spoken translation from times to times, straining myself to put least amount of words, the simplest kind, to carry the meaning (as otherwise, the speaker would wait too long). this is my last reply, as i've intruded/hijacked too much into this thread. continuing the debate is welcomed, but i think i have write all my arguments. thank you for all concern you've shown.

________________
grammar mistake is intentional, grammar nazis need their entertainment.
Seijurou
Post #512351
user avatar
✯ Sarcastic
 Member

5:59 am, Dec 14 2011
Posts: 597


I have recently read a 31-page long (and more) discussion about the subject of honorifics (and I will use some of the ideas here) when a subbing company called MXMedia, which worked for Crunchyroll, decided to drop honorifics for all of their titles back in 2010, to help bring 'new blood.' The supporters of the decision were few, and they were mostly translators. The company employees said that it feels like a 'cop-out' when they leave in honorifics.

I disagree with that. Some words like 'Tanabata,' 'sukiyaki,' and honorifics in general should be left as is, no matter what type of series we are talking about. Sometimes, they even play a major role in the story (usually romantically), like when someone wants to be called by her first name, as some translators feel that given and family names should be swapped, since 'no one speaks like that in English' (calling each other by the last name, which isn't entirely true). Whether the series is set in Japan or not, it is the author's choice and right to decide what the characters he/she created say.

It shouldn't be a process of 'leave that,' 'change this,' 'ignore that,' etc. Like somebody said, I want to read what the original writers wanted, not what some translator thinks the dialog should be. Things like this lead to disasters similar to Sailor Moon and Battle Royale.

English has been an adapting language for centuries, borrowing words from all over the world. We shouldn't fear acceptance from foreign cultures. I mean, who would translate 'samurai' or 'ninja'?

By the way, your examples of 'Yo,' 'G'morning, and 'Wassup' (imagine the heroine of Yomeiro-Choice, Karin, saying that) so don't convey the nuances of '-kun,' '-chan,' or '-san.' They sound merely like poor attempts at localization, which is the core problem. The Japanese don't talk like that, so don't make them sound like they do. The only thing worse than removing honorifics is attempting to translate them.

Also, leaving out foreign words is not a sign of laziness, but an understanding of the fine line between translating and writing your own story. Such an attitude as the one you are displaying is what has caused 'professional translations' to divert from 'appropriate translations,' as translation is not a competition where the more words you translate, the better translator you are, but being flexible and knowing where the limit is.

What is next? 'Hey, these Japanese names like "Makoto" and "Yuri" sound too foreign and don't convey the gender properly. Let's change them to "Jack" and "Jessica," and while we're at it, what the hell are those "Tokyo" and "Okinawa"? Let's call them "New York" and "Hawaii" instead and be done with it.'

(Unfortunately, this has been done before.)

Last edited by Seijurou at 6:27 am, Dec 14

________________
User Posted Image
nailq
Post #512424 - Reply to (#512351) by Seijurou
user avatar
Member

5:19 pm, Dec 14 2011
Posts: 36


Quote from Seijurou
Also, leaving out foreign words is not a sign of laziness, but an understanding of the fine line between translating and writing your own story. Such an attitude as the one you are displaying is what has caused 'professional translations' to divert from 'appropriate translations,' as translation is not a competition where the more words you translate, the better translator you are, but being flexible and knowing where the limit is.

What is next? 'Hey, these Japanese names like "Makoto" and "Yuri" sound too foreign and don't convey the gender properly. Let's change them to "Jack" and "Jessica," and while we're at it, what the hell are those "Tokyo" and "Okinawa"? Let's call them "New York" and "Hawaii" instead and be done with it.'

(Unfortunately, this has been done before.)

Sarcastic but it's true enough.Anyone who doesn't feel satisfy with the translation why not do yourself a favor by reading the raw? I read the Japanese raws more than the scanlated one,guess what---> it's such a pain in the a** to fully convert Japanese into English without losing the original ''prosperity'' use of the words. Remember what we read are foreign comics,it doesn't hurt to learn one or two words of their language

Has anyone noticed how dramatic the topic changed after just one page,from "What turns you off... about a manga." into "What turns you off... about a translated manga'' ? The previous pages are not in Japanese or Korean,then why the topic changed so much eek

Seijurou
Post #512482
user avatar
✯ Sarcastic
 Member

9:46 pm, Dec 14 2011
Posts: 597


^You're right. I've been thinking about learning Japanese, but it's so difficult, and takes time. no A lot of great titles are untranslated at all. Maybe one day I will, but until then . . .

________________
User Posted Image
Crenshinibon
Post #512648 - Reply to (#512342) by yuno19
user avatar
Local Prig
Member

7:42 pm, Dec 15 2011
Posts: 1897


Quote from yuno19
Quote from mogiks
but I feel very strongly about this as a Japanese major with quite a lot of translation experience in manga. It seems to me like you don't truly understand the difficulties of translating from Japanese to English.

it seems to me you are a very strong supporter for 'some words is untranslatable thus better to leave 'em untouched.' while I am a strong supporter for 'maximize the destination language capability to convey meaning from original one.' you see left-out meaning is my weakness. i see your incomplete translation is your weakness. and it seems, unfortunate for me, manga fan is mostly in agreement to your opinion.

my argument in footnote is not as ridiculous as you want to think. if you could put the least amount of words to carry the meaning, why add more in the footnote? footnote is, indeed, to clarify things. but that's only if you have put all your might in the text's body yet its still not quite right. you should not disrupt the flow.

it would sounds like hate-message, but i only mean to clearly convey my point,
'it seems to me you haven't experienced the difficulty in translating other than japanese into english or others. it seems to me you haven't feel the gratefulness of 'oh thank god, we actually has this word.' here i say, japan is not the only complex, full of nuances, language. and english, isn't as incapable as you thought in delivering meaning.'

i don't take language major. japanese; as well as english, french, german, and italian; is not my mother language but i know well languages can have multiple level of politeness, as well as variety. i do spoken translation from times to times, straining myself to put least amount of words, the simplest kind, to carry the meaning (as otherwise, the speaker would wait too long). this is my last reply, as i've intruded/hijacked too much into this thread. continuing the debate is welcomed, but i think i have write all my arguments. thank you for all concern you've shown.


I'm firmly in this camp as well. A translated document should be treated as a document in English. You aren't trying to "preserve the language," you're trying to successfully convey it in another medium. Most commercial translators share this opinion (yes, there have been studies), and frankly that's why most translated novels are even readable. Academics frequently try the "let's leave it alone as much as possible" approach, and the result is often bland and unreadable in comparison (though admittedly this may have something to do with most academics only being able to write bland and unreadable text). The feeling of a piece is really its soul, and as such forms a stronger vessel than a staunch, unapologetic adherence to the original text.


________________
User Posted Image
Reviews of my Work:
You are kind of boring - Blackorion
Congratulations! Ur an asshole! - tokyo_homi
Your awesome!!! - Cherelle_Ashley
NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...
mogiks
Post #512653
user avatar
Member

8:02 pm, Dec 15 2011
Posts: 797


I would continue to debate this (I wasn't talking about novels, for example, only manga) but this is really off-topic and, at least in this thread, this debate is over.

________________
世界のどこかに 必ず
キミの居場所が ある筈
caozhi
Post #513279
user avatar
Nice desu ne
Member

6:10 pm, Dec 19 2011
Posts: 1068


Unneeded romance mad Sometimes a story is just better without the pretty boy prince traipsing through to save the day. I'd like to see a goddamn story where the heroine doesn't rely on some dude to give her a rousing speech about "moving on" or "shaking it off and trying again" SCREW THAT CRAP all the supposedly uplifting dialogue just makes me smh at the total lack of skill the writer has for cheering people up. Also the whole cry baby female protagonist, the "I'm gonna be your first" or "You're my servant now" thing (I really gotta find the one who started that shit and punch them in the face). Plus the moment I see a "perfectly normal, average, everyday" male amongst 843894890392 women.....I'm gone.

________________
User Posted Image


Yuri for Dummies (wip)
TheGirlWhoDidThat
Post #513283
user avatar
Lawless Resolute
Member

6:58 pm, Dec 19 2011
Posts: 138


An annoying main character. Even if the art in a manga was horrible, zero plot, no character development, and the translations made no sense I would read that over a manga with an annoying main character. I don't exactly know what makes a main character annoying to me, but when I see one I usually notice within the first chapter or so.

________________
"I don't hate people, I just feel better when they're not around."

Bum bum be dum bum bum be dum dum

"Don't you fly?"
smell the pages
Post #514061
user avatar
MPFB
Member

9:01 pm, Dec 24 2011
Posts: 25


-strong female leader that became weaker when they fall in love. But they still act as if they are strong
-genius guy falling in love with dumbass girl.
-sixteen years old girl that looked like ten years old. Thats gross!
-in harems or reverse harems, the main character always end up with the guy they first meet. Thats lame and predictable. In real life, you find your guy wayyy later on.
-I get creep out by how a guy cornered a girl and the girl get swept away by that.
-a girl or a guy get paranoid over holding hands, come on! I held hands with guys all the time, even though they are not my boyfriend.
-lot of shojo manga are annoying. The genre shojo should be dropped from the genres.
-lot of shonen manga are annoying too.

________________
No signature is perfect
don't click this link...
lorie
Post #514065
user avatar
belly6
Member

9:18 pm, Dec 24 2011
Posts: 56


bad art - let's just say the art has to fit the story, otherwise bad art is bad art and an immediate turnoff

too much dialogue - again depending on the story, too much is confusing and too much strain on my eyes

overdone story line - you can immediately tell when a story has been overdone because you've probably read several mangas similar to it.

annoying in an unfunny, whiny way character - applies mostly to shoujo I suppose

shallow, pretentious plot line - can't help but think of shoujo again

bad male lead not balanced with a good female lead - next story please

sexist shounen mangas - yeah i know its shounen, but do girls have to be so marginalised? still love the classics though

Astur
Post #514073
user avatar
Member

10:29 pm, Dec 24 2011
Posts: 39


Annoying characters - Types that irritate me are contemporary tsunderes, women that are barely wearing anything, and women in harem manga that just kick around the protagonist (those types in other genres are also annoying)

Dated art - I can't read much of the old stuff because it just turns me right off :/

The idiot female plot device in shoujo manga so that the smart guy will tutor her :/

In manga with lots of action (usually shounen and seinen) there are those types that always want vengeance, but the purpose of their revenge just doesn't make sense or is completely hypocritical OR they're just really, really annoying. (There was that one girl in Ubel Blatt... wants revenge and some stuff happens and then her outfit changes to something totally outrageous. The epitome of all my hatred in one).

I'm also getting tired of the bullies in shoujo manga.. wow they just go way too far for females and for males.

Alaena Night
Post #514074
user avatar
AKA Roseille
Member

10:40 pm, Dec 24 2011
Posts: 326


Not sure if I've posted in this topic before.

1. Underwhelming and over-the-top attempts at humor by using gimmicks. (Some things are funny. Other things, no matter how many flower backgrounds and cute chibi faces you paste on them, will never be funny.) In fact, the stuff that's actually funny usually doesn't have the chibi people and the flower backgrounds. For instance, Ooku tickled me pink. XDD

2. One-dimensional characters with absolutely no real depth; characters who are "unique" or "strong" or "original" because of a single, Charles Dickens style characteristic pasted over them that makes them more of a caricature than a well-rounded human being. I don't care if the main character is stupid, overly assertive/strong, clumsy enough to land them in the arms of their significant other, or naive, but they need to be fleshed out.

3. Comedy in general. It usually isn't funny. Dry, sardonic, understated humor (to me) is usually the best.

4. Happy happy star-filled school-life romance where the only drama comes from an oh-so-stormy relationship between [stock female character] and [ridiculously attractive rebel/school president/popular bishie/teacher]. Like the heroes in ecchi stories, shoujo heroines are often "faceless" (not literally, but in terms of character development) so that readers have enough room to insert themselves. If you want to tell a story, tell a story.

5. Tsundere characters. Sure, the Jerk with a Heart of Gold is a treasured character type. I even like some characters who fall under this category. But when a character comes in who flies off the handle at the slightest provocation, they usually fall under the wing of point 2 above and end up being gimmicky, one-dimensional characters.

6. Blatantly obvious exposition. Castle guards: "So, how about the new king? He's a great guy. Too bad he's illegitimate." Really? You already know this. The person you're talking to already knows this. The very fact that you're mentioning it solely for my benefit as the reader is bad writing.

7. Damsels in distress. Don't get me wrong—I actually don't really mind this trope done right. There are plenty of people in the world who do get themselves into trouble all the time and have no idea how to get out of it. I'm actually just being selfish here. I would like the trouble, suffering, and angst spread at least evenly between hero and heroine.

8. Romance based solely upon ridiculously overblown misunderstandings between two characters.

9. And actually...romance in general. I don't dislike it and I don't mind it as a subgenre, but many stories where the primary focus is romance fall flat. (Not to say that there aren't a handful that do things well.)

________________
YoutubeDeviantARTRoseille Scans
User Posted Image
alexj2936
Post #514075
user avatar
Member

10:48 pm, Dec 24 2011
Posts: 75


Cliches and bad art...fuck cliches

________________
Things I enjoy:

1. Badassery. I love being, doing, and living it. I also enjoy seeing it as it usually makes me cry man tears.
2. Badassness.
3. Badasses.
4. Badass mofos.
5. Manly badasses.

Things that I hate:
1. Wimpy protagonists.
2. Girly protagonists (if they're men).
3. Douchie protagonists.
4. Idiotic protagonists.
5. Over-the-line rude protagonists.
Pages (20) [ First ... 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ... Last ] Next You must be registered to post!

Back to Manga General  Back to Top

Search This Topic:
 
Manga Search
MANGA Fu
MEMBERS
TEAM-BU


footer