Why does shoujo so often undervalue its heroines? I'm getting tired of reading that... I mean, are guys really that perfect, that they have to continuously outclass the girls in their smarts, looks, popularity AND maturity? Good grief! Now, I want to see the exact opposite!

So basically, I'm looking for shoujo mangas that turn the dumb-girl/smart-guy, plain-girl/hot-guy, ditzy-girl/cool-guy, unpopular-girl/popular-guy, clueless-girl/capable-guy cliches on their heads. Not ALL of them, necessarily, but at least some of them. Lol. I want the girl to be either smarter, calmer, better-looking, stronger or more popular than the guy. Basically at least some things in which she totally trumps the guy, and preferably in more things than he trumps her. It DOES NOT COUNT if the guy is still better than her in more ways than she's better than him. It has to show in their power dynamic, too, in the sense that she often comes off as the more powerful/influential one in the relationship. She has to be the one that outclasses him, this time.

EXAMPLES:

One example would be Beauty Pop, where the girl is so much calmer than the lead guy that it's... actually really funny. He's spazzing all the time and she's so Zen she's practically enlightened. In this case, it's the guy who's ditzy/spazzy. Plus, she's more talented than he is (although he's pretty skilled himself). The only thing he really has over her is popularity, but even that advantage doesn't last for long...! (She gets famous/popular in her own way.)

I'm not sure yet, but Two Flowers For the Dragon seems to be heading in a similar direction. The lead girl is physically stronger (I mean, she's a DRAGON), plus she's a bona fide princess, so her social rank and prestige far outstrips that of both her suitors. They're both very handsome and are more mature compared to her, but she just so totally pwns them in terms of power (both physical and social) that I think she outclasses them. AND she's often cleverer and more original in her problem-solving, too, although that's not because she's "smarter" per se, just... a more lateral thinker. The guy she ends up with finally (or that I think she'll end up with finally /psychic-fangirl-mode), only really outdoes her in looks, and even that won't be for long. Once she gets a little older, she WILL be as hot as he is. In fact, this whole manga has lots of women who outstrip men in one way or another. It's quite an unusual manga in that regard.

Gokusen (okay, it's josei, not shoujo, but I'll also accept josei recommendations) is another example. The heroine is tougher, more mature, more "martially" experienced, more socially powerful/respected and in a totally bizarre way, more popular than the lead guy. (I mean, she has followers thanks to her "clan," so maybe it's not real/normal popularity, but it's true that more people adore/obey her madly and unconditionally than they do the hero. Lol.) He's definitely traditionally better-looking and more attractive to the opposite sex - I mean, he's a total bishie - but that's about the only thing that he really has over her. At first I thought he was calmer, too, but... Not really? I mean, not by much. She does outclass him at this point in the manga, since she has more advantages.

Viva womanhood! Sisters are doing it for themselves!

*ahem*

So, yeah. Any more like these?

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Edit: I've just started a rather passionate debate about this topic in the comments below; if you have the time, please contribute your thoughts as well as your recommendations.

Last edited by tartufo at 8:18 am, Jan 31 2010

all that comes to mind atm is monkey high..

I think a majority of shoujo have plain female characters so the readers (who are likely to be plain girls themselves based on the demographic) can more easily relate and live out their fantasies through the character.

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Feed your head.

Thanks for the rec, darknova42!

You bring up a good point about mass appeal, but to be honest, I've always wondered... Do girls really relate to less capable female characters that are consistently outclassed by guys? Doesn't that indicate some sort of dangerous social tendency towards low self-esteem in girls, and don't such mangas actually contribute to that problem?

I'm not sure that many modern girls actually BELIEVE that guys are better than them in every way (or in most ways). At least, I like to think that girls and women nowadays have better respect for themselves... But as you said, darknova42, what's popular in shoujo is popular in shoujo, and that does indicate general cultural trends. Does this tendency to undervalue women in shoujo manga reflect a similar trend in real life, or is it just part of some vast patriarchal conspiracy to influence art, and thereby life? (Okay, lol, maybe not conspiracy... But a subconscious social system that encourages lower intelligence/capability in girls. Oh, wait. That DOES sound kind of like a conspiracy. )

What do people think of this? Any ideas?

Edit: To add to this... If these mangas do not in fact indicate an actual social belief (that boys are better), then isn't it of paramount importance that more shoujo mangas start having intelligent, capable, non-ditzy heroines so as to more accurately reflect reality? And if they DO reflect an actual social belief, then isn't it still of paramount importance to create strong/smart female characters, so as to encourage girls that are facing such a crippling social system? Now that I'm thinking about it, it's kind of pissing me off that so many shoujo mangakas are just comfortably and thoughtlessly contributing to this trend of undervaluing women... What the heck are they doing? (And am I being ridiculous for feeling angry about this? Augh...)

Last edited by tartufo at 8:09 am, Jan 31 2010

I do not relate to anything stupidity related like majority of shoujo heroines.
If they're trying to "relate" to them at least make them slightly average instead of being so stupid that they fail everything and it seems like they have the brain the size of a peanut.

Kimi wa Pet - The woman is more capable, richer, etc. than the guy.

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♪MONSTARR~ will eat all your cookies and steal your bishies~♪ Φ_Φ

I don't think so.


Yes.

This isn't a gender-exclusive issue. Hell, this isn't even a Japan-exclusive issue. *cough*Twilight*cough* Have you ever read Shounen? It contains the most idiotic male protagonists ever, and the female characters (leads) are usually stronger and more steadfast in their actions. Mangaka like to make use of the "average joe/jane" type since it makes the readers relate to them more, in a way that they represent a "blank slate".

Basically, these kind of stories show that you can always develop and be something that you dream of or achieve a particular goal in your "blank future". It's also tremendously easier to incorporate character development in a character who isn't really good at anything and has a low self-esteem to boot than an already established confident character with skills abound.

Most Shounen/Shoujo are aimed at boys/girls under 16, to begin with. The
prota's age in Shounen/Shoujo usually gives away to whom it is directed to.


Anyways...

I don't have any recommendations. T.T


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You know, Dr. Love, you've just made some AMAZING and thought-provoking points that are not only clear and believable, but have gone a long way towards calming me down... I mean, if shounen protagonists are also consistently less intelligent/capable than their female love interests, then I've really got nothing much to complain about.

... Or do I? Why do I have this niggling feeling that... somehow, things are not that equal? In shoujo directed at young girls, ditzy-ness or silliness is somehow made to seem to be an intrinsic feminine quality (therefore the term "girly girl," I mean, people actually THINK this stuff is genuinely "girly," i.e. reflective of girls or girlhood in general). Whereas with shounen, you never get the impression that being wussy/suckish/dumb is a typically "boyish" or "manly" quality that boys must aspire to in order to be proper/normal boys. This is where the difference lies... I think? Eh, I can't be sure. Maybe guys are ALSO being encouraged to be less capable...?

So yeah, I'm a lot calmer now, but I'm still not completely convinced... Your thoughts?


This is actually why I think it's even more important an issue. I mean, these are the formative years for young people when what they absorb from the cultural media (including manga) can drastically influence their perception of themselves, their self-esteem, the peer-pressure that surrounds them, etc.

This is why I think that mangakas targeting these age-groups (for both boys and girls) have a kind of responsibility not just to mindlessly entertain and encourage already-established social cliches, but to contribute to young lives in a constructive way... Not that I'm favoring censorship of stupid/cliched stories, lol, but I just think it would be nicer if more mangakas actually thought about this stuff before they went about creating work with potentially damaging consequences. Obviously, there is SOME correlation, since we hear stories of crazy otaku guys vandalizing merchandise for manga series that have deviated from their image of the perfect "virginal/innocent/hapless" girl. Sure, they may be the freaks, but freaks are generally cultural barometers signifying underlying social problems by bringing them to light (just like the Ku Klux Clan are a bunch of racist freaks, but they reflect the fact that there is often racism in the general populace as well, albeit in a milder form).

Does what I'm saying making any sense? Or am I getting carried away again? Lol.

EDIT: Oh, and... (Sorry, I keep rambling on...) In shoujo, the incapability/haplessness/clumsiness of the girls is not only implying that these qualities are inherently "girly," but also that they are attractive and therefore worth aspiring to (e.g. "hot/smart guys like stupid girls, so if you act stupid, you'll get more attention from the hotties"). Whereas I'm not sure if similarly lame qualities in a male shounen protagonist are portrayed as being inherently ATTRACTIVE to women... In fact, doesn't the guy often have to toughen up in some way as a means of character growth? So the aim isn't to be less capable, but to become worthy of the girl (by becoming capable). Whereas in shoujo, being incapable/unintelligent is kind of the end-all-and-be-all... Hardly any shoujo heroine is shown to be genuinely maturing or becoming more skilled/clever/capable over the course of the manga. Instead, she just... stagnates in this culturally-perceived "cuteness" (which is really just haplessness) so that guys can be there for her. Am I reading too much into this? Frankly, as I hardly ever read shounen, I have to admit that I'm not in the best position to make comparative statements. Maybe shounen protagonists DO have lameness/incapability as their goal, and no development beyond that... o_0; In which case, both genders are screwed. Lol.

Last edited by tartufo at 8:48 am, Jan 31 2010

[m]You do have a point, and you are miles away from getting carried away (if im getting carried away, I tend to compare things to Hitler/Stalin/W but anyway....)

There is this really interesting psychological view-point that women tend to marry over their status, while men look for someone beneath them. It is supposed to be genetically based, because women search for someone to support/protect them, as they declare themselves more important (as they are) because they bear childs....

And then there is the fact that men tend to get more... extreme. Women as it is psychological researched gather around the standard - there arent as many nobel prized women, there arent as many female CEO's or whatever, but there arent as many female serial killers, dictators (are there any?).

So as we all know these facts, and that there are only 2% of the world population who are actually able to think (sorry, one of my bad points is my arrogance/narcissm), the "normal" heroine is built from the average women. And i know quite a few who will actually be as .... normal as that.

Hope im making sense too, as i normally dont^^

I second Kimi wa Petto
the second girl in Kamikaze Girls well...she isnt stronger than all guys...but shes strong...hmmm... it probably doesnt fit your conditions..
Miriam kind of fits... i think...
Basara well... she is the leader of her people...
Dengeki Daisy on second thought, no. but they do hit each others quite frequently



btw... arent all girls more superior if the guy falls in love first?


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Give a man fire, and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

I think shoujo/shounen characters are often depicted as "less capable" (or in the case of shoujo "ditzy") to also endear the reader. A character that shows weakness is more easily sympathized/empathized with than a character with no weaknesses.

Also, on the point of the male/female counterparts usually being "better", I think this is done so because boys fantasize about "bagging the hot chick" and girls (I'm guessing) fantasize about falling in love with "dreamy"(meaning their ideal guy) guys.

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Feed your head.

But you have to notice the different goals between shoujo and shounen protagonists. You're right that while they both generally start out as average or below average in looks or strength or intelligence or whatnot, only the shounen male protagonist grows to become stronger or more capable than the female love interest (so that he could protect her yadi-yadi-da). That's not usually the case for shoujo female protagonist. She grows more capable, but the end result is just her hooking up with the "perfect" guy. But she doesn't usually out-power him, he'll always be the stronger character.

And really, just by reading a handful of shounen or shoujo manga, you can see that female characters are usually less capable.

You not being able to recommend something is in itself a strong point for this case, no?

So... on topic: Hanada? Guy is popular as well, but the girl is pretty, smart, and wealthy. Buuut, he's obviously more mature than her. >__> yea, um, *thinks* T__T

Devil and Her Love Song ? 8D

Well does the girl have to better than the dude, I would be happy if the girl was at the same level as the guy and doesn't totally rely on the dude, is independant and not crying every freakn chapter. Does there need to be superiority? Same with shounen, god I am sick of most shounen romance mangas where the leads are all wusses who can't get their feelings across , being manipulated and so damn weak, and where the girls are so much more superior and the guyz world basically revolves around getting dat girlz attention like in Suzuka, i hate dat manga lol. I can't believe that these weak female leads and weak male leads in shoujo and shounen actually appeal to some readers.


Anyways these mangas I would recommend

1) "Saver"---the girl goes through so much shit, and still remans so damn strong both physically and mentally. No crying and just a strong willed determination to survive. Beautiful, strong and awesome.

2) I second Kimi Wa Pet---she is superior though in mostly every aspect but still I liked dis manga.

3) Stroke Material--not dat great but she is much calmer and smarter than the dude who is a total idiot and was previously a playboy.

4) Kare Kano---both are equal, neither is superior---they are seen as the perfect couple at their skul though both have their problems. Dude is probably more popular but he has mental issues lol

5) Cat Street--has one of the best character development for a heroine atleast for me.

6) Grand Sun-- the girl is sronger than the dude. But not smarter or calmer.

7) W-Juliet--i would say neither is superior though dis manga resolves around the heroine helping out the hero.

8) The Prince's Cactus-- she is probably more calmer and smarter. The dude has a higher social ranking but dat doesn't stop her from bossing him around sometimes cus shez her aunt lol

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Angel Beats--best anime of the 2010 spring season

umm... Suki-tte Ii na yo?
The guy is popular and all in that one, but he's also pretty down to earth and doesn't flaunt his popularity around. Also the heroine is calm and logical when she needs to be. She's not ditzy or anything.

Angel Shop - Smarter, calmer, and more popular.
Ashita no Ousama - More creative and visionary.
Ciel - Calmer and stronger.
Gokinjo Monogatari - More driven.
Kodomo no Omocha - More famous and popular.
Nodame Cantabile - More musically talented.
Oooku - More powerful.
Otomen - Calmer.
Ouran High School Host Club - Calmer.
Oyayubihime Infinity - Calmer.
Saiunkoku Monogatari (anime) - More ambitious and resourceful.
Seigi no Mikata (J-drama) - More quick-witted.

Long digression below:


Last edited by Odette at 4:15 pm, Jan 31 2010

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Reading: Kingdom, Sangokushi, Historie

Kaichou wa Maid-sama! I recommend this.
On the issue of shouen characters they are usually depicted as simple minded and focuses their energy on one particular goal. They do not appear as "helpless" as shoujo girls, but it's usually their determination and stupidity that endears readers. I can see your point in that shoujo mangas usually depict the female character as not that smart and often needs protection from the male character. This kind of princess/prince like story proves to be most attention grabing for the readers so shoujo artists continue to form their story this way. Unless people consider manga as a pictorial of everyday life instead of a form of artistic entertainment, then we might be going down the road to society views of women's roles again...

Last edited by chineserider at 4:42 pm, Jan 31 2010

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Nulla in mundo pax sincera
"Always go too far, because that's where you'll find the truth." - Albert Camus

So first this:
Watashi ni xx Shinasai!
-Guy is more popular, but she basically manipulates him and has the upper hand the whole time (so far at least).
-Also, some series and oneshots by Yoshihara Yuki fit the description (its smut though, so if you mind that sort of thing just disregard this)

But to add to the discussion, the problem I see with the female heroines in stories that I've read, is that even when they are super strong etc. to start out with, they are always getting taken down a peg or three in the story and end up reliant on or subservient to the dude at some point. Its like in order for the relationship to work, she has to be less powerful than him.

Also, this trend isn't only found in shoujo manga. Its something that can be found all throughout literature, even in American comics, the same crap happens over and over (side note, heres a site about the abuse of women in American comics, kind of tongue in cheek, but also makes a valid point http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/). I think the whole idea of ditzy (easily controlled) women being more attractive to men just traces back to living in a patriarchal society. The same idea has been written for hundreds of years (i.e. Taming of the Shrew by Shakespeare) and its unlikely to stop any time soon.

Sorry to get all academic about it...but its something that I find interesting.

Last edited by cholitatriangle at 3:42 pm, Jan 31 2010