I picked up bits and pieces of the thought process going through but haven't had the heart of going through all the long posts..so forgive me, if i presume some things....

tartu-this exact thing was the reason that put me off reading shoujo nowdays...because prolongued reading of such material surprisingly does slip into your being and as a female, I had this really odd way to act 'cutesy' and even helpless or ditsy etc esp with the opposite sex- not a good thing....I guess that most shoujos aim at the golden rule of, no matter how low you think yourself, you can bag a hunk/bishie thing, but the primary point of dismay coming from a background of women who think more of themselves, the so called 'good purpose' to say there is hope, doesnt quite nip the bud of the original problem most women have, low self-esteem. That is why most women are naggers or neurotic, believe me they are....it is annoying how pronounced and overrated it is in manga but this will change, hopefully someday..

..looking through some manga that would fit your search pattern, sadly even teh admired kimi wa pet also doesnt free one from the notion of a woman feeling inadequate or ostracized due to being 'better than everyone else'. It seems in manga,, as a woman, you are damned if you're ditsy-stupid etc though you bag the guy and also you are damned if you're cool/beautiful etc...For me,it always looked like many shoujo mangakas have very poor esteem of their own sex..this is troubling and disappointing to me in general but truth be spoken, there is a 'friend or foe' thing in women which sadly, I discovered late in life....in a society with women working closely together would immediately rate a female 'friend' or 'foe' depending on how the interpersonal relationship fares...in mangas it is overrated, but depending on the type of background and society, some women are like that........not the ditsy as so much but the bitching and the competition for the guy thing... it can happen until say mid 20s ...It is worth writing stories over with ...

...if u think the ditsy is too far fetched, watch bridget jones diary 2...it shows how this sort of 'universal low self-esteem' has filtered into many a writer's prose..I have no idea how to think of people like this but most of the girls I know are self sorted, currently man-of-life centric women....so maybe in someway, in a hidden self tucked away someway, this kind of inner estimate of themselves has worked into their current selves...

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I don't find this to be true at all. Most of the shounen I've read enforces the "guys are dumb, girls are smart" stereotype. Sure, in the action shounens the guy usually makes up for being dumb by being ultra-powerful but that's the entire point of all these mangas. I'd say that 90% of the plot for a standard shounen involves meeting stronger and stronger enemies and training more and more to beat said enemies. The male protagonist rarely gets any smarter and if he does, it's usually only in terms of battle tactics. And harem protagonists are 99% of the time the most useless pieces of trash imaginable.

Most shoujo I've read don't have an analogous power-up scenario. Most of them involve middle school - high school romances and there isn't any power-uping to do. The shoujo mangas that are more career oriented tend to have stronger female protagonists who do advance quickly in their career of choice.

I think there's been some very valid points made! Feminism in literature is very controversial, I remember in my English Extension class in senior highschool I had to view fairytales through the eyes of a feminist - slightly neurotic, but enlightening just the same.



I agree completely. From my experience, I feel that Shoujo characters just don't have a lot of opportunity to grow, like Shounen, Seinen and Josei characters (overall, anyway), which I suppose is the whole problem. I guess a Shoujo protagonist's "power-up's" are getting the guy, then keeping the guy, and maybe sleeping with the guy Not exactly a healthy role model. But, I also think that Shoujo encompasses that dumb, total naive and idealistic view a young girl takes out of rose coloured glasses the first time she's in love - that she isn't worthy of her 'crush', who's perfection itself.

I think you'd really enjoy more Josei series, that generally have stronger female protagonists;
http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?perpage=50&ge nre=Josei&orderby=rating

Ahh, and I'd also suggest Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou, Beast Master oh and Hatsukare. Maybe Skip Beat! (as it's career orientated), although Ren is kind of revered by Kyoko throughout.

Last edited by GunslngrGal92 at 5:13 pm, Feb 1 2010

YES, THAT.


Holy crap, cholitatriangle, YOU WIN THE INTERNETS! Yes, please - do be academic! You made an EXCELLENT point about character development, in that even the strong girls are made progressively weaker and it's only when they're weaker than the guy that the romance "works". So the point about male shounen protagonists also generally being weaker doesn't really fly, since they eventually develop strength and the girl eventually becomes the more vulnerable one, thereby allowing the romance to "work". So actually, the same pattern is reinforced (of girls having to be weaker in the end). I know that there are shounen exceptions to this, but GENERALLY speaking, isn't this true? That the guy has to become stronger to protect the girl in some way, and that she must come to rely on him? That's the direction of the shounen protagonist's character growth - towards strength. Whereas the female shoujo protagonist either starts off weaker anyway, or even if in a rare case she IS stronger initially, then like cholita-sama said, she devolves and more often than not becomes weaker than the guy eventually, and that's the point where she finally "finds love". The idea of a strong woman (or a stronger woman) being in a relationship is consistently discouraged by manga (and by other forms of art/media as well, as cholita-sama pointed out).

The reason shounen male protagonists' weakness can't be said to be the same or comparable to the shoujo protagonists is because their growth curves go in opposite directions - the guy's generally goes up, and the girl's generally goes down (or stays at a plateau if she was already weaker to begin with). You see my point?

I'm sorry that I don't have the time to respond to the other comments just yet, but I will when I find the time...! Thank you SO MUCH to everyone who is participating in this debate! What I love about it is that it's so intelligent and no one is flaming other people or doing silly things like that - this is a very serious and thought-out debate which is quite deep, and people from ALL sides are making observations that are compelling and that are giving me pause and are seriously making me reconsider my ideas. I'm sure that Baka-Updates visitors in general are also benefiting from reading this debate, because they're getting real food for thought...

So thank you to everyone who is commenting here, as well as leaving recommendations. Thank you for further enriching my (already rich) B-U experience. *bows*

EDIT: Uh... I seem to have just made some sort of double-post... @_@ Sorry. Could a mod delete the previous incomplete one? Is that even possible? So sorry...

Last edited by tartufo at 7:38 am, Feb 1 2010

Oooh, great point! That's very true, indeed...

well isnt that a great way to view women...

its a great point of view though, as I have to say it lies probably within the authors. You get more sensitive (that is a fact! Or you were to begin with) if you start writing/drawing/anything creative. Wondered why many of those famous singers comitted suicide?
Right. Because of low self-esteem.
Most suicides ever are comitted out of depression over yourself. If you were happy, comforted and had a great inner self, you would not be able to write anything. Those types do mathematics. Or they at least dont write books. Literature always gets better after wars....like the economy...


now i think ive made myself more confused out of this than I was before..... Damn't.... long-way-off-topic-post.

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Give a man fire, and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

But we aren't only talking about intelligence here... And yes I noticed that stereotype, however, in most cases the guy has more street smarts and he has other characteristics that makes him (or will make him) the more capable character. This isn't usually the case in shoujo manga where the female is usually infinitely inferior to the male - it's normally a "prince" type guy with a "normal" average girl.

And just to clarify, when I said that that the leading girl in shoujo doesn't usually out-power the guy even after her character development... I meant it figuratively, not like the shounen manga power-up thing.

Exactly, amaranthine, we're talking about figurative strength, not actual physical powering up through tournaments etc in shounen which shade449 is talking about - we're talking about character strength in terms of intelligence/mental strength/maturity or similar factors. Physical strength may be part of that strengthening process sometimes, but it's not the main thing.

There is also the matter of comparative strength - who seems to dominate in a relationship. Basically, if you looked at the couple, you would be able to say who "held the reins" in that relationship or who had greater influence on the other person... The argument we're making is that in the end, in both shounen and shoujo, the goal is for the guy to dominate (i.e. to be "stronger" than the girl in terms of the power equation). It's a different kind of strength than just physical strength, although physical strength might be part of that overpowering...

Just as an example, let's take so-called shoujo "power-up" stories, where the girl is supposed to get "stronger". Guess what that entails? In both The Delinquent Lesson and Silver, and many similar mangas, the girl ACTUALLY HAS TO BECOME "SEXIER/MORE APPEALING/MORE HELPLESS" in order to become what is perceived as a successful woman. So the "powering up" is actually a powering down... It's taking the focus away from her inner strength and instead concentrating on superficial aspects like her body-shape or her seductiveness. This kind of stuff makes my blood boil... Argh.

But like Odette pointed out (it was Odette, right?) Ashita no Ousama is one of the rare mangas where the woman actually powers up, i.e. her character growth and her innate genius make her, in a sense, more gifted/powerful than the guy - that and it becomes obvious near the manga's conclusion that in a completely unexpected way, even though she never planned it that way or even thought of it, she ends up holding the more emotionally/romantically powerful position in their relationship. At first, he outpowered her - but her character growth (and the development of the male lead's feelings) is such that she ends up on top in the end. Um. I mean figuratively on top. *blush*

It is my hope that Skip Beat! will develop in a similar way, although at present, the lead character still has a lot more powering up to do before she ends up being more powerful. But I think she can, at least, she's showing tendencies of growing at a remarkable rate and truly becoming stronger as a person as time goes on. She's already pretty damn close to overpowering Sho, the second love interest - in fact she's already done so in many ways - but she's still "behind" the main love interest. I think that she's catching up really fast, though, and that she might eventually pull out ahead... What do people think?

Yes!!! This is just what I was trying to say...It always bothers me sooooo much. The only excuse for depowering one of the characters in a romance that I can think of is that the author is trying to make them equals in the relationship (so that they can have a "marriage of true minds" or whatever you want to call it), but it never seems to stop at just being equals. The girl always dips below the boy, has a breakdown where none of her original strong points seem to be functioning, and cries on his shoulder or some such nonsense. This never seems to happen in shounen. The boy may experience a few setbacks, but he always bounces back, whereas this is almost never the case for the girl.

The only thing I've ever read (which is saying something, because I read a lot) where the growth curves are switched (i.e. girl gets stronger and stays stronger) is Jane Eyre.


Also, as a side note, the one line that really annoys me in manga I've read is the whole "Why can't you just rely on meeeeee?!" line (probably because it ususally comes just before the aforementioned breakdown)...Why can't you just be content that the other person is strong enough to take care of theirself and doesn't love you for your money or sense of responsibility?

Holy crap, this whole topic turned into a discussion about sexism and such in literature. LOLOL

Just make a topic somewhere hahaha.

Boku to Kanojo no XXX the girl is stronger.
Cynical Orange more popular? Better-looking? Calmer? I haven't read it in awhile.
Girl in Heels calmer? =/
MAX Lovely! Cooler...sort of. More popular.

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♪MONSTARR~ will eat all your cookies and steal your bishies~♪ Φ_Φ

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Last edited by animefan22 at 6:38 pm, Jul 16 2020

But when you are in a relationship, isn't it natural dat u shud rely on eachother sometimes, if the girl is totally independant and can handle all of her problems herself, then what is the use of that guy. In a good relationship shoudn't the girl also share some of her sad moments with da guy not just the good moments. Being too independant and not needing others to share your burdens is also a problem. So dat moment of breakdown dat happens for that girl, isn't dat a good character development. However i do agree that too many of these moments of breakdown is definetly not good. Like if the girl goes from being independant to being totally reliant on the guy , dat is not good, but being a bit reliant and sharing atleast some of your burdens is not bad. If the girl remains totally and absolutely independant from beginning to end, how has the girl changed? Sharing some of your burdens is a good thing is it not? The same thing ofcourse also applies to the guy. I definetly agree that in a relationship both should definetly be equals, there should be no superiority but that is an idealistic view not necessarily realistic. There will always be moments where the girl has to rely on the guy and also moments where the guy has to rely on the girl. However there should never be total reliance. In some shounen romance harem mangas, an inferior male lead falls usually falls in love with a superior cool female lead and the whole manga usually involves him getting that girl because there is bound to be problems. I hate it how his whole world revolves around that girl and that all of his decisions are based on that girl and he keepz on going after that girl after countless rejections. Bascially isn't that total reliance and at the end when he getz dat girl dat just confirms that dis kind of crazy attachment is ok. So any kind of character development is totally worthless for me. Where is that guyz pride? After so many rejections he continues to go after the girl continuosly ignoring advances from other girls who can make him happy.

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Angel Beats--best anime of the 2010 spring season

First of all, I wanna say that this discussion is very intriguing. Though it makes me a little sad for our education system, as this conversation is many times more intellectual and enlightening than any class discussion I ever had in High School.

I don't really have much to add, but I think it is definitely both the influence of our society (with males on the dominating side) and marketing. While I'm no expert on literature (or psychology for that matter), I think that it might make sense for a book's female protagonist to have low self-esteem, in terms of marketing. Most people have some weaknesses, and even if they don't share them directly with the character, they might be able to relate their own to them, in a lesser way. If the character has a lot of self-confidence, while in some cases it may become like a model character to the reader, some other readers may not be able to connect at all, which would limit the target audience.

Although, as is obviously shown by this discussion, a lot of books do make it overly exaggerated, over glorify the men, and emphasize their roles in the relationships. Even if the heroine is written to have self-esteem issues, it wouldn't necessarily mean that she would be completely incompetent or reliant on the guy. Maybe it's a lack of creativity. The less complex a character is, and the fewer dimensions they have, the easier it is to write. Or maybe it's influenced by how much other literature already has that sort of set-up. And that would loop us back around to being influenced by society, and men's roles in it.

Ugh, I think I just gave myself a headache. I'm not even sure if what I just wrote makes sense, but it's what came to my mind.

Now, to try and keep it on topic, I'll see if I can think of some manga.
...I think I've been making a rather scary face at my monitor for a while, since I had some very bad luck while perusing through my lists.

The only thing I found that I think might sort of work that hasn't been mentioned would be Tokyo Crazy Paradise, but I have sort of mixed feelings for that one. While the heroine proves herself to be more than competent, and doesn't seem to have any issues in the way of self-esteem or anything, it's the other end of the relationship that sort of bothers me. Somewhat...chauvinistic perhaps?

And as a side note, thanks to everyone else who recommended manga, I've been looking for this sort of thing

Oh ick, I couldn't stand Jane Eyre - sorry Charlotte Bronte! I think it's because I'm not a very religious person, and because of that I couldn't connect with her constant need to be a martyr throughout the book...

But in saying that, I did adore Wuthering Heights. I guess I'm just an Emily Bronte fan.


I think so too! The thing I love about Skip Beat! is just the total unpredictability of Kyoko to all the situations the mangaka throws in, and how there's more to the plot than just romance.

I think Kyoko can beat Ren in the end

Last edited by GunslngrGal92 at 4:00 pm, Feb 2 2010

I think most people referring to shounen were talking about shounen romance. That would be equal to shoujo romance, after all, and they're more common than you might think. In these, typically the guy doesn't excel in much, just like in harem or ecchi, but he's concentrating on one person.

As for your pride and prejudice example... have you even read that book? I picked up a much different sort of message, myself. Maybe you should reread it or something, and look through some analysis so you can follow the meaning behind events a little better.

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