A couple things actually.
First, any chance you could add an "exclude all" button so you can check all the exclude boxes at once? Then you could go back and check the few things you do want to include. It would be helpful for when you're searching for something pretty specific and have to individually check off nearly all 30 or so of the boxes to filter out all those genres you don't want.
The other thing I almost hate to suggest is adding another genre to the mix. I know it's already pretty overcrowded, but what about "Harem" as a filterable genre? I know some walk a fine line between a regular romantic comedy and harem type story, but for the most part I think harems are pretty distinguishable.
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Member2:16 pm, Aug 12 2007
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Would that include gyaku (reverse) harem too?
Member
9:43 pm, Feb 3 2008
Posts: 185
9:43 pm, Feb 3 2008
Posts: 185
I just want to comment about the decision of adding the "harem" genre to this site. I'm doing it here since the other thread that also suggested the implementation of the aforementioned genre has been locked already.
First of all, I want to say that I'm very critical of the addition of subgenres of Western origin to the database. Generally, this term is used with negative or satirical connotations, that are fueled by a lot of misconceptions of the Japanese culture and society.
I've always regarded the creation and use of this term as pejorative since its very origins. In fact, the very application of the word "harem" to design a genre centered in a male surrounded by three or more attractive women that show various degrees of affection to the male protagonist makes me remember the romanticized Western conception of the harem, inspired by the representation of Muslim Women in Art during Colonialist times.
I want to clarify that (as I said before) the term "harem" is a Western word. The Japanese simply use the term Lovecomi when they have to list a series of this type. For example, if you look in Japanese sites how series that are typically described as "generic harems" by some Westerners are listed you'll simply find Lovecomi. If you want to corroborate this, just go to a Japanese site and look for a popular "harem" title, for example, Love Hina and you'll likely find something like this:
(Love comedy is used by the Japanese when referring to "generic harems", but I think that this term is already covered by the "romance" and comedy" genres in the database, making the application or creation of a new term to describe this pretty unnecessary.)
Now, the usage of this term has been so extensive that has reached some Japanese fans, but as far as I know, they generally use it to describe anime series only [ハーレムアニメ ] (Maybe this has to do with the original application of the word. After all, it is theorized that that it was thanks to Tenchi Muyo (an anime) that this term was born in the USA and then expanded its usage to the rest of the West).
But since the concept of a male surrounded by females is not exclusive of comedies, "Harem" carries a broader meaning than lovecomi, since the fact that a series features a lot of attractive females means that the series belongs to the kawaisa movement (specifically the bishoujo one), which is tied to bishoujo visual novels, dating sims and eroges that while popular in Japan, are pretty disliked in the West.
I know that anything of what I've written here is going to change an already taken decision, but I just want to point out that this decision is going to open the doors for more unnecessary Western-made subgenres, and that if you've definitively decided to include "harem" in the database of genres and demographics, I'd recommend to make a separate entry for gyaku harem, since I consider that including both "harem" and "gyaku harem" into a "harem genre" would generate a lot of confusion (mainly to neophytes).
Lastly, I want to make clear that this is by no means a message of protest or disapprobation of some kind, just some personal statements that denote inconformity with the way the Western fandom is heading. I know that the Administrators implemented this change not so much because they wanted to, but because of a disproportioned number of requests. After all, this is a manga information site, and if the majority of the community want to use superfluous and needless terms to describe manga, there isn't much to do, is it?
________________
First of all, I want to say that I'm very critical of the addition of subgenres of Western origin to the database. Generally, this term is used with negative or satirical connotations, that are fueled by a lot of misconceptions of the Japanese culture and society.
I've always regarded the creation and use of this term as pejorative since its very origins. In fact, the very application of the word "harem" to design a genre centered in a male surrounded by three or more attractive women that show various degrees of affection to the male protagonist makes me remember the romanticized Western conception of the harem, inspired by the representation of Muslim Women in Art during Colonialist times.
I want to clarify that (as I said before) the term "harem" is a Western word. The Japanese simply use the term Lovecomi when they have to list a series of this type. For example, if you look in Japanese sites how series that are typically described as "generic harems" by some Westerners are listed you'll simply find Lovecomi. If you want to corroborate this, just go to a Japanese site and look for a popular "harem" title, for example, Love Hina and you'll likely find something like this:
(Love comedy is used by the Japanese when referring to "generic harems", but I think that this term is already covered by the "romance" and comedy" genres in the database, making the application or creation of a new term to describe this pretty unnecessary.)
Now, the usage of this term has been so extensive that has reached some Japanese fans, but as far as I know, they generally use it to describe anime series only [ハーレムアニメ ] (Maybe this has to do with the original application of the word. After all, it is theorized that that it was thanks to Tenchi Muyo (an anime) that this term was born in the USA and then expanded its usage to the rest of the West).
But since the concept of a male surrounded by females is not exclusive of comedies, "Harem" carries a broader meaning than lovecomi, since the fact that a series features a lot of attractive females means that the series belongs to the kawaisa movement (specifically the bishoujo one), which is tied to bishoujo visual novels, dating sims and eroges that while popular in Japan, are pretty disliked in the West.
I know that anything of what I've written here is going to change an already taken decision, but I just want to point out that this decision is going to open the doors for more unnecessary Western-made subgenres, and that if you've definitively decided to include "harem" in the database of genres and demographics, I'd recommend to make a separate entry for gyaku harem, since I consider that including both "harem" and "gyaku harem" into a "harem genre" would generate a lot of confusion (mainly to neophytes).
Lastly, I want to make clear that this is by no means a message of protest or disapprobation of some kind, just some personal statements that denote inconformity with the way the Western fandom is heading. I know that the Administrators implemented this change not so much because they wanted to, but because of a disproportioned number of requests. After all, this is a manga information site, and if the majority of the community want to use superfluous and needless terms to describe manga, there isn't much to do, is it?
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Member
9:45 pm, Feb 3 2008
Posts: 786
Quote from NeoFireHawk
I just want to comment about the decision of adding the "harem" genre to this site. I'm doing it here since the other thread that also suggested the implementation of the aforementioned genre has been locked already.
First of all, I want to say that I'm very critical of the addition of subgenres of Western origin to the database. Generally, this term is used with negative or satirical connotations, that are fueled by a lot of misconceptions of the Japanese culture and society.
I've always regarded the creation and use of this term as pejorative since its very origins. In fact, the very application of the word "harem" to design a genre centered in a male surrounded by three or more attractive women that show various degrees of affection to the male protagonist makes me remember the romanticized Western conception of the harem, inspired by the representation of Muslim Women in Art during Colonialist times.
I want to clarify that (as I said before) the term "harem" is a Western word. The Japanese simply use the term Lovecomi when they have to list a series of this type. For example, if you look in Japanese sites how series that are typically described as "generic harems" by some Westerners are listed you'll simply find Lovecomi. If you want to corroborate this, just go to a Japanese site and look for a popular "harem" title, for example, Love Hina and you'll likely find something like this:
(Love comedy is used by the Japanese when referring to "generic harems", but I think that this term is already covered by the "romance" and comedy" genres in the database, making the application or creation of a new term to describe this pretty unnecessary.)
Now, the usage of this term has been so extensive that has reached some Japanese fans, but as far as I know, they generally use it to describe anime series only [ハーレムアニメ ] (Maybe this has to do with the original application of the word. After all, it is theorized that that it was thanks to Tenchi Muyo (an anime) that this term was born in the USA and then expanded its usage to the rest of the West).
But since the concept of a male surrounded by females is not exclusive of comedies, "Harem" carries a broader meaning than lovecomi, since the fact that a series features a lot of attractive females means that the series belongs to the kawaisa movement (specifically the bishoujo one), which is tied to bishoujo visual novels, dating sims and eroges that while popular in Japan, are pretty disliked in the West.
I know that anything of what I've written here is going to change an already taken decision, but I just want to point out that this decision is going to open the doors for more unnecessary Western-made subgenres, and that if you've definitively decided to include "harem" in the database of genres and demographics, I'd recommend to make a separate entry for gyaku harem, since I consider that including both "harem" and "gyaku harem" into a "harem genre" would generate a lot of confusion (mainly to neophytes).
Lastly, I want to make clear that this is by no means a message of protest or disapprobation of some kind, just some personal statements that denote inconformity with the way the Western fandom is heading. I know that the Administrators implemented this change not so much because they wanted to, but because of a disproportioned number of requests. After all, this is a manga information site, and if the majority of the community want to use superfluous and needless terms to describe manga, there isn't much to do, is it?
um wow thats alot...First of all, I want to say that I'm very critical of the addition of subgenres of Western origin to the database. Generally, this term is used with negative or satirical connotations, that are fueled by a lot of misconceptions of the Japanese culture and society.
I've always regarded the creation and use of this term as pejorative since its very origins. In fact, the very application of the word "harem" to design a genre centered in a male surrounded by three or more attractive women that show various degrees of affection to the male protagonist makes me remember the romanticized Western conception of the harem, inspired by the representation of Muslim Women in Art during Colonialist times.
I want to clarify that (as I said before) the term "harem" is a Western word. The Japanese simply use the term Lovecomi when they have to list a series of this type. For example, if you look in Japanese sites how series that are typically described as "generic harems" by some Westerners are listed you'll simply find Lovecomi. If you want to corroborate this, just go to a Japanese site and look for a popular "harem" title, for example, Love Hina and you'll likely find something like this:
(Love comedy is used by the Japanese when referring to "generic harems", but I think that this term is already covered by the "romance" and comedy" genres in the database, making the application or creation of a new term to describe this pretty unnecessary.)
Now, the usage of this term has been so extensive that has reached some Japanese fans, but as far as I know, they generally use it to describe anime series only [ハーレムアニメ ] (Maybe this has to do with the original application of the word. After all, it is theorized that that it was thanks to Tenchi Muyo (an anime) that this term was born in the USA and then expanded its usage to the rest of the West).
But since the concept of a male surrounded by females is not exclusive of comedies, "Harem" carries a broader meaning than lovecomi, since the fact that a series features a lot of attractive females means that the series belongs to the kawaisa movement (specifically the bishoujo one), which is tied to bishoujo visual novels, dating sims and eroges that while popular in Japan, are pretty disliked in the West.
I know that anything of what I've written here is going to change an already taken decision, but I just want to point out that this decision is going to open the doors for more unnecessary Western-made subgenres, and that if you've definitively decided to include "harem" in the database of genres and demographics, I'd recommend to make a separate entry for gyaku harem, since I consider that including both "harem" and "gyaku harem" into a "harem genre" would generate a lot of confusion (mainly to neophytes).
Lastly, I want to make clear that this is by no means a message of protest or disapprobation of some kind, just some personal statements that denote inconformity with the way the Western fandom is heading. I know that the Administrators implemented this change not so much because they wanted to, but because of a disproportioned number of requests. After all, this is a manga information site, and if the majority of the community want to use superfluous and needless terms to describe manga, there isn't much to do, is it?
11:36 pm, Feb 3 2008
Posts: 10661
Hmm, interesting take on things...And then a nice way for us admins to defend ourselves at the end, eh?
The other problem I see now is that we've opened the floodgates for too many other requests to implement subgenres, which I DO NOT fulfill at this time. The point of a genre is to be a major classification, not just a minor thing as "show biz" or other types of hentai.
Anyways, on the topic of harem, there isn't much we can do about it...Unless you see a better solution than just taking out the harem genre again?
________________
A just ruler amongst tyrants
The other problem I see now is that we've opened the floodgates for too many other requests to implement subgenres, which I DO NOT fulfill at this time. The point of a genre is to be a major classification, not just a minor thing as "show biz" or other types of hentai.
Anyways, on the topic of harem, there isn't much we can do about it...Unless you see a better solution than just taking out the harem genre again?
________________
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Member
9:21 pm, Feb 4 2008
Posts: 185
9:21 pm, Feb 4 2008
Posts: 185
Well, as long as you have ways to keep those requests from being implemented that shouldn't be necessary, I believe. Removing it from the genre's list after all of what it has been said (and taking in account the enormous amount of requests asking for its implementation) should only be made as a last resort I think. But if people keep asking for more subgenres of this type with the same impetus as they did with harem the removal of this subgenre wouldn't sound like a bad idea at all.
What kind of bugs me, though, is that we have reached a point in which people is considering the addition of subgenres like the ones you mentioned in a manga site of all places.
For me, the list of genres is already excessive as it is for being a site dedicated to the listing of a popular Japanese graphic medium like manga. It's worth noting that the tendency of listing an almost ridiculous amount of genres under a manga series seems to be a Western one, since the Japanese have almost the opposite attitude regarding this. For example, if you look up Evangelion on any Western site you'll likely find it listed as Drama, Mecha, Apocalyptic fiction, Psychological thriller, Action, Mature and Sci-fi (and even Romance in some cases) under the genre's list. But if go to a Japanese site you'll likely find it listed simply as "SF".
But anyways, I trust that you'll find the right course of action when the time comes, since this decision will bring much more predicaments specially with dealing with much of the community unconformity on the matter (that by the way, stands out for its unorthodoxy.)
________________
What kind of bugs me, though, is that we have reached a point in which people is considering the addition of subgenres like the ones you mentioned in a manga site of all places.
For me, the list of genres is already excessive as it is for being a site dedicated to the listing of a popular Japanese graphic medium like manga. It's worth noting that the tendency of listing an almost ridiculous amount of genres under a manga series seems to be a Western one, since the Japanese have almost the opposite attitude regarding this. For example, if you look up Evangelion on any Western site you'll likely find it listed as Drama, Mecha, Apocalyptic fiction, Psychological thriller, Action, Mature and Sci-fi (and even Romance in some cases) under the genre's list. But if go to a Japanese site you'll likely find it listed simply as "SF".
But anyways, I trust that you'll find the right course of action when the time comes, since this decision will bring much more predicaments specially with dealing with much of the community unconformity on the matter (that by the way, stands out for its unorthodoxy.)
________________
Member
9:48 pm, Feb 4 2008
Posts: 752
Just a small comment.
I would think that the fact that "harem" being an official gender or sub-gender is of little importance.
The real important thing (I think) is if having that concept in the list of genders is useful while filtering manga.
Now, lets say that I loved Love Hina because of the idea of a guy surrounded by beautiful girls, and I would like to read something similar. I use the genre "harem" while searching and I get a lot of manga with the lead character surrounded by beautiful women.
I do believe is useful, in fact, while more genres and sub-genres are added to the filter the more easier it gets to find a specific manga.
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THIS POST DOES NOT EXIST......IT'S ALL IN YOUR IMAGINATION
I would think that the fact that "harem" being an official gender or sub-gender is of little importance.
The real important thing (I think) is if having that concept in the list of genders is useful while filtering manga.
Now, lets say that I loved Love Hina because of the idea of a guy surrounded by beautiful girls, and I would like to read something similar. I use the genre "harem" while searching and I get a lot of manga with the lead character surrounded by beautiful women.
I do believe is useful, in fact, while more genres and sub-genres are added to the filter the more easier it gets to find a specific manga.
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THIS POST DOES NOT EXIST......IT'S ALL IN YOUR IMAGINATION
Member
11:28 pm, Feb 4 2008
Posts: 185
11:28 pm, Feb 4 2008
Posts: 185
Quote from MajorMarmot
I do believe is useful, in fact, while more genres and sub-genres are added to the filter the more easier it gets to find a specific manga.
Where did you get the idea that the genre's list is a "filter"? As far as I know, its function on this site is to categorize series into major classification groups to make their identification more feasible, not serve as a personal criteria reference service for what it should be suppressed or removed. The filter and highlighting feature (as I understood) was not made to serve as a personal censoring feature, that should be "fed" by adding more and more needless genres to refine any personal tastes you may have when blocking or searching for a series, but to facilitate the identification of your favorite genre in the Releases page (in the case of the highlighting feature), and to serve as an extreme way to keep very certain unwanted genres from showing in the aforementioned section (in the case of the filter feature.)
Quote from MajorMarmot
Now, lets say that I loved Love Hina because of the idea of a guy surrounded by beautiful girls, and I would like to read something similar. I use the genre "harem" while searching and I get a lot of manga with the lead character surrounded by beautiful women.
I think that using "harem" and "Love Hina" as a example of the usefulness of having endless subgenres is a bad idea. Following your example, I think that when you were searching for more "Harem" titles you are really expecting that only Love Hina-like series are going to show up in the search results. But what happen when series like Higurashi no Naku Koro ni or Fate/stay night show up in the search results?
It's clear that what you were really looking for was not a series with many women surrounding a male (Harem), but a series that depicted the same premises that Love Hina offered, that is, the concept of a slapstick comedy combined with drama and romance (what the Japanese usually call "LoveComi").
But anyways, you must remember that this site's main function is to serve as an information manga site, not as a personal reference site that is used when looking for new series to read. Sure, the last point is important, but it is more to provide the user the most accurate, correct and professional way of classify the information provided (or that's what I think, at least).
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Member3:26 am, Feb 5 2008
Posts: 9026
Neofirehawk's right. If you're looking for something similar to Love Hina, you can just ask the members in the "I'm Looking for" section. This can also be applied to other 'sub-genres', like "Music" and "Showbiz". That's what the "I'm Looking for" section is for. xD
I personally don't like the many genres fit into one manga. For example, Gantz is labeled as Romance. @_@ I mean, there are 'romantic' relationships in the series, but I don't think someone who's looking for Romance will be picking Gantz as a first choice.
Though I see that it has been removed already. But you get my point. Just stick the main genres to the manga.
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I personally don't like the many genres fit into one manga. For example, Gantz is labeled as Romance. @_@ I mean, there are 'romantic' relationships in the series, but I don't think someone who's looking for Romance will be picking Gantz as a first choice.
Though I see that it has been removed already. But you get my point. Just stick the main genres to the manga.
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2:56 pm, Feb 5 2008
Posts: 752
Quote from NeoFireHawk
Where did you get the idea that the genre's list is a "filter"?
....from here? http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?act=genresearch the advanced search by genre page?
Quote from NeoFireHawk
As far as I know, its function on this site is to categorize series into major classification groups to make their identification more feasible, not serve as a personal criteria reference service for what it should be suppressed or removed. The filter and highlighting feature (as I understood) was not made to serve as a personal censoring feature, that should be "fed" by adding more and more needless genres to refine any personal tastes you may have when blocking or searching for a series, but to facilitate the identification of your favorite genre in the Releases page (in the case of the highlighting feature), and to serve as an extreme way to keep very certain unwanted genres from showing in the aforementioned section (in the case of the filter feature.)
You do know that you don't HAVE to highlight all the genres, right? Let's say that you don't like the harem genre....well....don't use it. How does it harm you the fact that is just listed there?
Quote from NeoFireHawk
But what happen when series like Higurashi no Naku Koro ni or Fate/stay night show up in the search results?
.....they don't... but yes, in my Harem definition I should have added the importance of a romantic connection between the lead character and the female characters. Next time I'll try to be more precise.
Quote
But anyways, you must remember that this site's main function is to serve as an information manga site, not as a personal reference site that is used when looking for new series to read. Sure, the last point is important, but it is more to provide the user the most accurate, correct and professional way of classify the information provided (or that's what I think, at least).
If the main function is to have accurate information, what about all the great features that MU has? highlighting, filtering certain genres, checking your progress in certain series against the actual releases, reading list....etc.
There are other manga information sites, but what makes MU really great, is the fact that it lets you organizer your manga collection and personalize the information you receive. I think
And this is a general comment, but if information is accurate but not useful, what purpose does it have?
Quote from Dr.Love
I personally don't like the many genres fit into one manga. For example, Gantz is labeled as Romance. @_@ I mean, there are 'romantic' relationships in the series, but I don't think someone who's looking for Romance will be picking Gantz as a first choice.
Isn't Gantz being labeled as Romance a mistake in the use of that genre instead of a problem with the genre itself?
Last edited by MajorMarmot at 3:15 pm, Feb 5 2008
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Member3:11 pm, Feb 5 2008
Posts: 9026
Quote from MajorMarmot
Quote from Dr.Love
I personally don't like the many genres fit into one manga. For example, Gantz is labeled as Romance. @_@ I mean, there are 'romantic' relationships in the series, but I don't think someone who's looking for Romance will be picking Gantz as a first choice.
Isn't Gantz being labeled as Romance a mistake in the use of that gender instead of a problem with the gender itself?
First of all, is gender another word for genre? My native tongue isn't English, so I wouldn't know, and I found the continued use of that word weird. And second of all, there's nothing wrong with the genre, 'Romance', itself.
I was just pointing out that people just try to fit too many genres on the popular series by using that example (which can lead to mistakes). It's already crowded with the 'limited' genres that we have. So if the subgenres would be increased, then there would be like 20 genres for one manga, and that looks kind of messy to me. Just keep it simple, and state the main genres with their respective manga.
Also subgenres will keep increasing, no matter how many you add to the database. So I think it would be nice to only have the main genres.
Just my opinion, though~
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3:17 pm, Feb 5 2008
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Quote from Dr.Love
First of all, is gender another word for genre? My native tongue isn't English, so I wouldn't know, and I found the continued use of that word weird.
In fact, my mistake, I already edited it. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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3:31 pm, Feb 5 2008
Posts: 641
Wouldn't the addition of such sub-genres like "harem" help to provide users more accurate and precise information when they're searching for said topics here? Certainly when some are interesting in looking up romantic series with a simple one to one relationship, there are a lot of series that pop up (2943 to be exact).
With said example, if one were to search for comedy and romance combined, you will get well over 800 series with those basic descriptions. So if someone is interested in series with multiple love interests, by searching just romance and comedy will take quite a while.
A fine point was raised about love hina being a "love comedy", however, a quick wiki also points to the english genre it is listed under. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Hina
"Bishōjo, Comedy, Harem, Romance, Ecchi"
This isn't the first place that it's popped up at either, but it is still understandable to people what it means. Doesn't that just help to provide information to people who are interested in manga on a manga information site..?
I know that some series are really hectic with the abundant genres under its file, so it really comes down to people keeping the information accurate and clean on the site when they update the series. Or the actual addition of sub genres to the mange info page.
________________
With said example, if one were to search for comedy and romance combined, you will get well over 800 series with those basic descriptions. So if someone is interested in series with multiple love interests, by searching just romance and comedy will take quite a while.
A fine point was raised about love hina being a "love comedy", however, a quick wiki also points to the english genre it is listed under. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Hina
"Bishōjo, Comedy, Harem, Romance, Ecchi"
This isn't the first place that it's popped up at either, but it is still understandable to people what it means. Doesn't that just help to provide information to people who are interested in manga on a manga information site..?
I know that some series are really hectic with the abundant genres under its file, so it really comes down to people keeping the information accurate and clean on the site when they update the series. Or the actual addition of sub genres to the mange info page.
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Member3:33 pm, Feb 5 2008
Posts: 9026
But you can also ask the members in the "I'm Looking For..." section, no? If you want them that badly.
Plus, you even get an extra bonus. And that's the opinion of other people. They can prevent you from reading a complete waste of time harem, no?
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Plus, you even get an extra bonus. And that's the opinion of other people. They can prevent you from reading a complete waste of time harem, no?
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3:36 pm, Feb 5 2008
Posts: 641
Only works for series people have read though, that's the limit to "I'm looking for..."
And if they haven't read it, they can't very well prevent you from wasting time when they give you a series for suggestion either.
The other problem with that is you're not always going to get enough responses from those topics, and generally they're the same popular choices you've already read all the time.
________________
And if they haven't read it, they can't very well prevent you from wasting time when they give you a series for suggestion either.
The other problem with that is you're not always going to get enough responses from those topics, and generally they're the same popular choices you've already read all the time.
________________
