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G-17
Post #494562
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Uncultured
Member

2:45 pm, Sep 6 2011
Posts: 2114


Plural of mango.

One mango... two manga.

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Myuym
Post #494564 - Reply to (#494543) by Joentjuh
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3:16 pm, Sep 6 2011
Posts: 275


Quote from Joentjuh
Quote from Scyfon
What about Japanese manga (originating from Japan with Japanese text) drawn by non Japanese? Do you refuse to call them manga even though even the Japanese themselves do?


No, not if it's published by a Japanese company... Even if that person were to live halfway around the world.


So if it would be published by a different company (non Japanese) the exact same comic would no longer be manga? Do you have any idea how retarded that sounds?



Joentjuh
Post #494569 - Reply to (#494564) by Myuym
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4:02 pm, Sep 6 2011
Posts: 297


Quote from Myuym
Quote from Joentjuh
Quote from Scyfon
What about Japanese manga (originating from Japan with Japanese text) drawn by non Japanese? Do you refuse to call them manga even though even the Japanese themselves do?


No, not if it's published by a Japanese company... Even if that person were to live halfway around the world.


So if it would be published by a different company (non Japanese) the exact same comic would no longer be manga? Do you have any idea how retarded that sounds?



Please don't be rude.

I'm just stating my personal opinion (one that isn't foolproof I know, but it's better than nothing at all). If you have a counter argument, please provide it... Don't look for faults, come up with solutions.

I think my argument is perfectly reasonable.
If someone were to draw an abstract 2-panel comic, in Japanese, and it would be serialised in for example Shounen Jump, I would consider it manga.
If that same comic were to be serialised in England and not in Japan, I wouldn't call it manga... Though I admit I'd have to think twice if it would also be in Japanese (likelihood is very low)
Rule of the first.

Indie 'manga' and doujinshi are a lot harder to classify, but mostly I only consider those origination from Japan to be the 'true' manga... There just aren't any clear guidelines for this.
Is it important? No, not really... It's not life threatening or anything. But clearly manga has become a force apart of comics. Where does it all end/start?

Anyway that's how I look at it. If it doesn't make sense to you, feel free to provide your own view.

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Myuym
Post #494590 - Reply to (#494569) by Joentjuh
user avatar
Member

5:06 pm, Sep 6 2011
Posts: 275


Quote from Joentjuh
Quote from Myuym
Quote from Joentjuh
Quote from Scyfon
What about Japanese manga (originating from Japan with Japanese text) drawn by non Japanese? Do you refuse to call them manga even though even the Japanese themselves do?


No, not if it's published by a Japanese company... Even if that person were to live halfway around the world.


So if it would be published by a different company (non Japanese) the exact same comic would no longer be manga? Do you have any idea how retarded that sounds?



Please don't be rude.

I'm just stating my personal opinion (one that isn't foolproof I know, but it's better than nothing at all). If you have a counter argument, please provide it... Don't look for faults, come up with solutions.

I think my argument is perfectly reasonable.
If someone were to draw an abstract 2-panel comic, in Japanese, and it would be serialised in for example Shounen Jump, I would consider it manga.
If that same comic were to be serialised in England and not in Japan, I wouldn't call it manga... Though I admit I'd have to think twice if it would also be in Japanese (likelihood is very low)
Rule of the first.

Indie 'manga' and doujinshi are a lot harder to classify, but mostly I only consider those origination from Japan to be the 'true' manga... There just aren't any clear guidelines for this.
Is it important? No, not really... It's not life threatening or anything. But clearly manga has become a force apart of comics. Where does it all end/start?

Anyway that's how I look at it. If it doesn't make sense to you, feel free to provide your own view.


I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude.
Anyway, in my opinion there is a certain art style that is seen in many asian comics
comics that sport this art style are named manga, without caring if it comes from Japan, Korea, China, etc. on the other hand, if a Japanese artist, backed by an Japanese company creates something what looks like a western (supahhero) comic it would be up to debate if you could call it manga (if you're not Japanese that would use the word manga as the word for comic)

greydrak
Post #494614 - Reply to (#494527) by Joentjuh
user avatar
Member

6:29 pm, Sep 6 2011
Posts: 641


Quote from Joentjuh
I'm not attacking MangaUpdates in any way, just using it as an example. Not all OELs are marked as such, some are actually marked as Manga (quick example: Chocolate War).
Also my question/concern as not specifically directed at the MU database, more at the manga reading community.
Or, to be more precise, I asked for what you - the community - think about what is 'manga' and when it can be called such... What are the criteria? (especially since there seem to be so many different variations of this).
Is every comic produced in Japan automatically a manga?
What about comics produced in Japan that are in English, are these OEL (F.A.Q. says yes, but what do you think?

So you think doujinshi are nothing but fan works, and bears no special relation (except the subject) to Japan (or Asia)?
A fan work of a western comic (OEL or not) is also Doujinshi?

Hint: try a dictionary. Got that quote from Wiktionary, but many other online dictionaries state the same thing.

I'm not asking for explanations, I'm asking about opinions.

What is manga style exactly? Because even in manga styles often differ.... But I see your point.

.. This topic has grown a bit heavier and serious than intended bigrazz

P.S.
I strongly disagree with the term 'OEL', what about manga imitations produced in Spanish, German, Dutch, or one of the other many languages?


If an OEL is clearly an OEL (publisher and artist confirmed that the work is an OEL) then submit a request change ticket to have the Type updated.

I gave you that response on the definition because that's what it came down to, and any other definition that doesn't include "Japan in origin" when it comes to defining "manga" is in need of updating. Those definitions are of the components of the characters and not of the english word "manga".

If you can't tell what manga style is...go read more manga...

You can disagree with OELs all you want, it's one of the many terms used to describe them. Manga-style/inspired comics is another one, take your pick, but they're not just manga, they're inspired by manga until they reach manga level.

As another poster pointed out, this is a repetition of another topic a good ways back. There are at least 3 times as many opinions as there are people, so it's not going anywhere with everyone thinking of different things for the same thing while some should shelf this until a few months/years later after gaining more experience.

Joentjuh, a lot of these posts of your can really be remedied by reading more manga. See for yourself what manga is, a switch will click one day and these questions won't be necessary anymore. Manga is manga, if you don't understand it or know what it is and isn't, go read some more. It doesn't matter if you read the wrong ones either, you'll get it eventually.

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Scyfon
Post #494650 - Reply to (#494569) by Joentjuh
user avatar
Mome Basher
Member

9:02 pm, Sep 6 2011
Posts: 3380


Quote from Joentjuh
Please don't be rude.

I'm just stating my personal opinion (one that isn't foolproof I know, but it's better than nothing at all). If you have a counter argument, please provide it... Don't look for faults, come up with solutions.

I think my argument is perfectly reasonable.
If someone were to draw an abstract 2-panel comic, in Japanese, and it would be serialised in for example Shounen Jump, I would consider it manga.
If that same comic were to be serialised in England and not in Japan, I wouldn't call it manga... Though I admit I'd have to think twice if it would also be in Japanese (likelihood is very low)
Rule of the first.

You best be trollin'.

So I'm Asian, and let's say I'm cooking French cuisine - taught to me by a proper Frenchman whose recipe has been passed down for generations.
However, I happen to not live in France.
So by your logic, the dish that I will be making is not French cuisine because I'm not French and I didn't make it in France. Does that make sense to you?

User Posted Image

Please don't get offended when people point out that your logic is bloody retarded.

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The Love Cook
Post #494652
Member

9:17 pm, Sep 6 2011
Posts: 2


Manga: The japanese word for comics.

Oddwaffle
Post #494658
Member

9:58 pm, Sep 6 2011
Posts: 84


At the extreme general, comics are essentially a sub-set of picture books - or stories written with pictures. Manga is also sub-set of picture books. They are extremely similar but anyone who have read know that they both have different styles and expressions. It's difficult confuse one with another if you are given two extreme of manga and comic books to read (ex: Spiderman vs Bleach). Even if you could get the exact same story for both books, you will still notice a different 'vibe' when you read them.

However, there isn't really a strict definition of comics have to be such and such or manga has to be such and such. If anyone read The Adventures of Tintin or Lucky Luke then you will notice that some instances of these comics can pass for a strange 4-panel manga.

OEL can try to pass as manga but any experienced reader will notice the differences right off the bat. It gives off a different vibe even if the setting is similar to a manga. I think it has to do with differences cultures, media, life styles and education systems. You can also tell the difference between a manhwa and manga (no, it's not the left/right reading style) but it can be very difficult as korea and japan cultures, media, life styles...etc are similar to each other. For example, Freezing can pass as a manga while ID will have a harder time passing as a manga.

brid
Post #494659
user avatar
Member

10:04 pm, Sep 6 2011
Posts: 467


Quote from Scyfon
So I'm Asian, and let's say I'm cooking French cuisine - taught to me by a proper Frenchman whose recipe has been passed down for generations.
However, I happen to not live in France.
So by your logic, the dish that I will be making is not French cuisine because I'm not French and I didn't make it in France. Does that make sense to you?


Cooking and literature are not the same. In order to cook something, you simply have to learn the method. Creating art, on the other hand, is more than just learning a method. Other artworks people have seen, things currently going on in society, local culture, etc., all of this influences the artist. This is why, for the most part, literature students study British and American literature separately even though they were both originally written in English, and there are some commonalities between British and American literary movements.

Comics and manga are the same art form whether they are produced in Japan, France, America, Germany, etc. in the same way that poetry is poetry no matter where it is written.

However, in the same way that German poetry is not quite the same as French poetry, manga is not quite the same as French comics, even if the French artist is using a manga style. Because he grew up in the United States and has been influenced by all the things Americans have been influenced by, Stan Lee's Ultimo is different than a typical Japanese manga, despite the fact that it's being published in Japan for a Japanese audience.

If your criteria is art style or place of publication, you can call Ultimo or any OEL you like a manga, but differences in nationality does have an influence on the work produced. For this reason, only a Japanese person can create Japanese manga and Japanese poetry, in the same way that only a French person can create French manga and French poetry.

TL;DR - Manga is manga no matter where it is written. However, Japanese manga is only produced by someone culturally Japanese.

Joentjuh
Post #494660 - Reply to (#494614) by greydrak
user avatar
Member

10:04 pm, Sep 6 2011
Posts: 297


Quote from greydrak
If an OEL is clearly an OEL (publisher and artist confirmed that the work is an OEL) then submit a request change ticket to have the Type updated.

I gave you that response on the definition because that's what it came down to, and any other definition that doesn't include "Japan in origin" when it comes to defining "manga" is in need of updating. Those definitions are of the components of the characters and not of the english word "manga".

If you can't tell what manga style is...go read more manga...

You can disagree with OELs all you want, it's one of the many terms used to describe them. Manga-style/inspired comics is another one, take your pick, but they're not just manga, they're inspired by manga until they reach manga level.

As another poster pointed out, this is a repetition of another topic a good ways back. There are at least 3 times as many opinions as there are people, so it's not going anywhere with everyone thinking of different things for the same thing while some should shelf this until a few months/years later after gaining more experience.

Joentjuh, a lot of these posts of your can really be remedied by reading more manga. See for yourself what manga is, a switch will click one day and these questions won't be necessary anymore. Manga is manga, if you don't understand it or know what it is and isn't, go read some more. It doesn't matter if you read the wrong ones either, you'll get it eventually.


I don't think any amount of reading really matters, manga is quite easy to recognise even to those who have only read one or two... It's just that I have yet to receive a clear explanation of what is 'manga style'... Which is apparently a crucial factor in defining what is manga and what not. Sure I know it, you know it, most on MU know it... But let's put it in words shall we.
Note: as a developer I personally like clarity and testability.
“If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck” - though maybe true, is useless if you don't know what a duck is (or can't tell the difference between a swan and a duck).

That there are many different opinions makes it a good subject to debate over, and clearly has need for it. That not everyone has the same area of expertise or as many years of experience as you, makes it all the more interesting. The answer 'it will come with time, debate is pointless', though perfectly valid, doesn't really help. It would be wonderful if by the end we, as enthusiasts could all agree on something, or at least have learned something from each other.
I you don't like the subject, feel free to ignore this topic.

If this topic is a repetition, sorry. Still, if it's been years since... Why bother bringing it up (without providing links)? I could understand weeks or months... but years? (please don't answer, it's not important).

Anyway, I understand your opinion (though stated quite harsh and final) and on some points might even agree.

--------

When I started this topic I hadn't really thought it through myself yet, after the first few replies I could already see many flaws in my own reasoning, the reason behind the topic has also changed somewhat, so let's try and simply the subject a bit shall we:

The definition of what is a book is quite clear, the definition of 'graphic novel' is clear, even that of comic is clear...
I used to lump comics and manga together, but it has long since grown into a large subset of comics. I feel, and I think many others also do, a manga can no longer be simply called a comic.

The question is thus, where does 'comics' end and 'manga' start?
What divides those two and how.
For the sake of argument let's ignore Manhwa, Manhua and Doujinshi for now, these only over-complicate matters unnecessarily. Sorry for bringing it up before.

The general opinion on this appears to be that for something to be called manga it just needs to originate from Japan or for many just needs to be in manga style... Preferably both.

Though simple, it's also quite vague and leaves room for much interpretation, which is only good to a degree.

Quote from Oddwaffle
At the extreme general, comics are essentially a sub-set of picture books - or stories written with pictures. Manga is also sub-set of picture books. They are extremely similar but anyone who have read know that they both have different styles and expressions. It's difficult confuse one with another if you are given two extreme of manga and comic books to read (ex: Spiderman vs Bleach). Even if you could get the exact same story for both books, you will still notice a different 'vibe' when you read them.

However, there isn't really a strict definition of comics have to be such and such or manga has to be such and such. If anyone read The Adventures of Tintin or Lucky Luke then you will notice that some instances of these comics can pass for a strange 4-panel manga.

OEL can try to pass as manga but any experienced reader will notice the differences right off the bat. It gives off a different vibe even if the setting is similar to a manga. I think it has to do with differences cultures, media, life styles and education systems. You can also tell the difference between a manhwa and manga (no, it's not the left/right reading style) but it can be very difficult as korea and japan cultures, media, life styles...etc are similar to each other. For example, Freezing can pass as a manga while ID will have a harder time passing as a manga.


THANK YOU (brid also)

Especially for not pointing out how wrong/stupid/retarded I apparently am because I'm just trying to makes sense/put into words something.

So you would say manga doesn't need to be 'Japanese', There can also be German manga or Swedish manga. It's the art style that is important. The word manga only relates to style (and format?) used by the artist.

Makes sense, I'm currently going with this explanation... Maybe adding a 'country of origin' to the series?

Quote from Scyfon
Please don't get offended when people point out that your logic is bloody retarded.

I don't mind someone pointing out my reasoning is flawed, if they were to provide counter arguments and/or do it in a constructive manner.
I do mind someone calling me a retard for no apparent reason and support this by adding vague statements or unrelated comments. I was hoping for at least some amount of decency.

Last edited by Joentjuh at 10:25 pm, Sep 6

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StarlightDreams
Post #494667
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Lowly Member
Member

10:44 pm, Sep 6 2011
Posts: 3891


Comics published in Japan aimed towards Japanese people.

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Oddwaffle
Post #494688
Member

1:21 am, Sep 7 2011
Posts: 84


If you want a clear distinction between manga and comics, I believe the closest can I come up with is the author's background knowledge and influences that give him the 'vibe'. It's not the drawing style but more like a feeling similar to how people call Hollywood movies are 'Americanized'. You can say it's the difference in perspective and expressions of the authors.

A friend of mine said "If the surrounding environment is responsible for defining half of who we are then we are all half-clones since we all go through the same education system, watch the same TV shows, read the same newspaper...etc.". A manga artist growing up in a Japanese environment will have a distinct 'vibe' compare to a comic artist growing up in an American environment.

OEL stuff can not fool an experienced reader because the author only tries to imitate manga. The author doesn't fully understand the mindset of the Japanese culture. Manhwa can easily fool a novice reader into believing it as a Manga because Korean culture is fairly similar to Japanese culture.

Masterba
Post #494700
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The Shorty
 Member

2:30 am, Sep 7 2011
Posts: 330


Any work of comic created in Japan and published in Japan.

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