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Somebody forgot they were doing a comedy... damn it.

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Wolf570
Post #510710
Member

8:37 pm, Dec 3 2011
Posts: 56


Ok, going straight to the most glaring point. Why for the love of God would you go with a serious plot™ for this when:

A. The premise is absolutely up-the-keel ludicrous.
B. Battles are so overdone you just can't call them tactical with as straight face.
C. Part of the cast isn't good for anything but doing silly stuff and they do it a lot.

Before you bring out your pitchforks and torches let me elaborate.

Now, as everybody can see the premise is as it is – appearing out of nowhere superweapons mimicking warships from WW2, commanded by AI's mimicking girls and bent on fighting humanity. Do I need to say more?

Yes, yes. I know that at the beginning there were no “mental models” but rest assured, time for nitpicking is yet to come. Anyway, lets look at this work from a serious stand point because we are dealing here with “Mr. I am a Serious Plot”. Looks like I’m a bit butthurt about the issue at hand so bear with me, thanks.

So, most of the things happening revolve around this “Fleet of Fog” (cool name, I will give them that). But what exactly what is this FoF?
- Origin – unknown
- Strength – unknown number of hulls… plus almost all of them are equipped with force-fields, nano-armor and BFLs
- Objective – UNKNOWN… and no, annihilating almost every human ship/warship and then cruising around the hood for 17 year doesn’t count as “We are here to defeat humanity, all of you die” goal, it’s more like an annoyance on a grand scale.

If by the end of this manga they somehow manage to deliver a semi-coherent explanation for all those very vogue plot points I will be impressed, more, I will be amazed.

Anyway, I see what the authors are trying to do with “AI evolving” motive, but it’s presented in such a hamhanded way - machines making human avatars for themselves, then dressing in girly clothing for the purpose of becoming more human - it’s practically shoved in your face and then you get hit with shovel a few more time just to be absolutely sure you got it.

While we are by “shoving” – the pacing is shot to hell and back, its in such a hurry you would think that Nike is selling their shoes at half price somewhere nearby.

Next point. The Protagonist and Co. Although it’s above your average run-of-the-mill cast there is a certain aspect of the characterization of the main hero that makes him look like a... well, like a pretentious douchbag with daddy issues.

Remember the first few pages of chapter one? The protagonist, saving a poor helpless girl that was chased by a band off armed goons. To be blunt that scene makes no sense overall and was probably inserted there just to up the cool factor.

Elaboration. Apparently daddy dearest hired them to save his daughter. First question – from where? A evening high-class ball? Because that’s how it looks speculating by her clothes. Second question – when? Seriously, how much time did they have if they decided to a hire mercs that operate from a sub? Third question – why them? Why would you hire someone whose specialty is battling high-tech ships-of-the-line? I won’t even ask how he did it considering that his usual role is sitting in a chair and looking sumg.

Yeah, he looks especially smug when he pulls assumptions out of his ass, it’s so tactical. Don’t get me wrong but stuff happening here is isn’t guarded by any tangible rules. Whatever the author thinks is cool, will happen. For an actual “tactical situation” to occurred certain rules have to be at least vaguely defined – they can do this but can’t do that. Then you set up a situation “cleverly” using those rules. Thanks to that our hero saves the day and at the same time shows to the reader he is a smart bastard. Here, two BBs suddenly join to form a SBFL just like that. Cool factor up, number of targets convincingly down to one.

I spit on your plot convenience.

I think that’s most of my complaints. No, wait there is still this issue - why does the story start when it starts and not when the “boy meets submarine”? Anyone?



Now it’s time for the nitpick corner:

1. Why does FoF have subs when every goddamn CA, BC and BB (as demonstrated) can dive and has torpedo tubes in the bow? Espionage? Yeah, right.
2. Apparently every coast in Japan is at least 100m deep right by the shoreline considering that subs can spectacularly jump out of water and CAs can hide submerged without anybody noticing them.
3. The CL in chapter one heads for the sub, how the hell is it possible that a torpedo from the very sub impacts the CL on the port side amidships?
4. Why does every units of FoF have accommodations for a human crew when they never planned of having one?
5. Why would you want to transport the prototype torpedo all the way through the pacific or with a shuttle if you just need to get it to Korea, by ground to Siberia, then transport it by a large fighter-bomber that would make a low altitude flight over the North Pole.
6. Why do you need to deliver the whole torpedo, send them a goddamn e-mail.
7. The torpedo is useless. It works pretty well against nano-armor but before it manages to reach it’s target it will bounce of the force-field. Not to mention the protagonist points it out clearly and the dudes go “well, we are still working on it”. Are you serious?
8. Japans economy is hammered so hard they are only able to produce 5 of those. Horseshit. You would think that after building a totally now sub class that is able to use the cavitation effect there would be some leftover cash for more the a handful of fancy new torpedoes.
9. Where are the NUKES?

Looks I’m a lot more butthurt about this issue then I though. I got too bored and too frustrated to go beyond chapter 17.

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jasperv
Post #510843 - Reply to (#510710) by Wolf570
Member

8:14 pm, Dec 4 2011
Posts: 280


Quote from Wolf570
Ok, going straight to the most glaring point. Why for the love of God would you go with a serious plot™ for this when:

A. The premise is absolutely up-the-keel ludicrous.
B. Battles are so overdone you just can't call them tactical with as straight face.
C. Part of the cast isn't good for anything but doing silly stuff and they do it a lot.

you answered yourself this story don't take itself seriously it's more in the line for fan-service oriented battleships anthropomorphism and some last volume page authors comment point at that.
Quote
4. Why does every units of FoF have accommodations for a human crew when they never planned of having one?

because they are WWII wrecks!
Quote
5. Why would you want to transport the prototype torpedo all the way through the pacific or with a shuttle if you just need to get it to Korea, by ground to Siberia, then transport it by a large fighter-bomber that would make a low altitude flight over the North Pole.

maybe because Europe is at war
Quote
6. Why do you need to deliver the whole torpedo, send them a goddamn e-mail.

yeah you're right, but even so lotsa countries can get nuclear weapons blueprints yet they can't make one unless they ask "Abdelkadir khan" network for some components.
Quote
7. The torpedo is useless. It works pretty well against nano-armor but before it manages to reach it’s target it will bounce of the force-field. Not to mention the protagonist points it out clearly and the dudes go “well, we are still working on it”. Are you serious?

capsizing even one ship from the FoF is worth the effort given how can one of them wreak havoc in a human fleet and they don't seems to reproduce or multiply
Quote
8. Japans economy is hammered so hard they are only able to produce 5 of those. Horseshit. You would think that after building a totally now sub class that is able to use the cavitation effect there would be some leftover cash for more the a handful of fancy new torpedoes.

supercavitation is not newtech it was wellknown and used according to the manga chronology before the annihilation of the human fleets
Quote
9. Where are the NUKES?

after haruna splited the sea asunder like moses did and seems like it could distort space and gravitation how did you expect nukes to work against them?
Quote
Looks I’m a lot more butthurt about this issue then I though. I got too bored and too frustrated to go beyond chapter 17.

you're reading the manga for the wrong reasons
its geared toward geeky otakus who drool when they see Takao,Yamato (whether they are the battleships themselves or the mental models) and lolli Haruna biggrin

Wolf570
Post #511007
Member

7:57 pm, Dec 5 2011
Posts: 56


No, I’m pretty sure I’m reading it for the right reasons. Just like every other title.

If I may be so bold as to ask, where did I per chance imply I’m impotent towards the topic we are currently discussing? Just for the sake of integrity this is my wallpaper at work…
User Posted Image
I think I will put on Takao next time.

Anyway, time to crush the opposition.
Quote
you answered yourself this story don't take itself seriously it's more in the line for fan-service oriented battleships anthropomorphism and some last volume page authors comment point at that.

Of course it’s one big “Steel Fleet” anthropomorphism, it’s obvious after the first chapter. Unfortunately a part of the story does take itself seriously and the rest of it suffers because of it.

For the general rule and I wish they write this on my tombstone:
“DUBIOUS SOURCE MATERIAL DOESN’T EXCUSE SHITTY WRITING”
Quote
because they are WWII wrecks!

Fair enough, then answer me this – why does IONA have an interior that is most definitely not from the original I-401?
Quote
maybe because Europe is at war

Last time I checked Korea and the region known as Siberia isn’t located in Europe. Maybe it changed by now but I doubt it.
Quote
“yeah you're right, but even so lotsa countries can get nuclear weapons blueprints yet they can't make one unless they ask "Abdelkadir khan" network for some components.”

This argument would be valid if we were talking about Pakistan, not USA. Unfortunately for you we are not. BTW, reverse engineering is a bitch.
Quote
capsizing even one ship from the FoF is worth the effort given how can one of them wreak havoc in a human fleet and they don't seems to reproduce or multiply

One word – Pitiful. You are risking a priceless asset against the assumption a weapon that doesn’t work, MAY, work one day. Besides, fleets of ships appeared out of nowhere, why shouldn’t they do it again? They had to be build somewhere.
Quote
supercavitation is not newtech it was wellknown and used according to the manga chronology before the annihilation of the human fleets

I wasn’t referring to that, I was asking about spare change lying around to build the sub but not the torpedoes.
Quote
after haruna splited the sea asunder like moses did and seems like it could distort space and gravitation how did you expect nukes to work against them?

Actually a nuclear initiation does pretty much the same thing… and more. When I wrote that nitpick I was asking why are they non-existing in the manga.

Now to your explanation – in chapter 7, whatshisnameagain… the dude with the mask explains that theoretically it’s possible to break the force-field if you apply enough energy.

Hmm, want to saturate something with enough energy? This sounds like a work for a NUKE!


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iluvatar751
Post #511014
Member

9:03 pm, Dec 5 2011
Posts: 43


your complaint is so long im not even gona cuote so ill tell you this you are nipticking a lot but you are not paying to much atention to the dialogs if you did a lot of things wouild make more sence for example the only countries that have the resourses to make the torpedo are china russia and america but china and russia are about to take hand in the europwan conflict so they are aout of the cuestion also avary other atempt to send the torpedo or the blueprints to america has already failed so the options you proposed are also out of the cuestion the low altitude flight over the north pole is also because the polar areas have melted wich also awnsers why the costs of japan are so deep and by the way do you imagine what would hapen if you use a nuke for each ww2 naval vessel out there?? not to mention it wouldnt hit them anyway since those ships can take satelites and upper atmosferic vehicles out i dont think so
so aniway read every dialog and text with more detail and you will find most the awnser and for the tactical thing its not like its as bad as you say but if you dónt like it o well everyone has his oun taste
se ya

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jasperv
Post #511690
Member

6:43 pm, Dec 9 2011
Posts: 280


well maybe i'm blinded by my bias toward Arc performance because
I loved their past series (Gundam MSV-R: Return of Johnny Ridden and Mobile Suit Gundam: The Gihren Assassination Plot)
but I think that plot wise it's less then what the authors are capable of doing
yet excuse them that this series is more of a tong in cheek perversion of the genre laugh

Wolf570
Post #511972
Member

7:17 pm, Dec 11 2011
Posts: 56


Quote
the only countries that have the resourses to make the torpedo are china russia and america but china and russia are about to take hand in the europwan conflict so they are aout of the cuestion

It doesn't matter, primarily because of the 9 time zones a.k.a. "Holy shit! Russian is BIG!". Catch my drift? Furthermore, every wondered what is the fastest way to get help from the Russian Army? You find the biggest army big-shot in the region and appeal to his righteousness (Euphemism for "slap him with a lot of cash") and presto - one Su-34 to your disposal.

Additionally I wanted to point out that the moment China or Russian even looks funny in the direction of Europe, the EU will resurface faster then you could say "Scobby Doo".
Quote
avary other atempt to send the torpedo or the blueprints to america has already failed

Plot convenience again, with no elaboration whatsoever. How exactly is a shuttle attempt reasonable again? While ascending it's visible as hell and wit no way to defend. If that one was the second best option then i may see why all the rest failed.
Quote
so the options you proposed are also out of the cuestion the low altitude flight over the north pole is also because the polar areas have melted

Point, defiantly a point about the melting. I also made a geographic fail, should have optioned for a quick jump over the "Bering's Strait", a bit more risky but a lot shorter way.
Quote
wich also awnsers why the costs of japan are so deep

No, it does not answer the question why the coasts are so deep. You just pulled that one hypothesis out of your ass.
Quote
by the way do you imagine what would hapen if you use a nuke for each ww2 naval vessel out there??

Umm, yes? Hell, I would use three on each capital-ship.
Please watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U8CZAKSsNA
It helps put things into perspective.
Quote
not to mention it wouldnt hit them anyway since those ships can take satelites and upper atmosferic vehicles out i dont think so

Who said anything about ICBMs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_45_torpedo
Quote
but if you dónt like it o well everyone has his oun taste

Or lacks the said "taste".
Quote
but I think that plot wise it's less then what the authors are capable of doing

Sadly. I really think they should have gone in the same direction Kurogane Pukapuka Tai went. With more emphasis on warships and less on lesbianism... or just more warships User Posted Image

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iluvatar751
Post #511995
Member

10:10 pm, Dec 11 2011
Posts: 43


Quote
Umm, yes? Hell, I would use three on each capital-ship.
Please watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U8CZAKSsNA
It helps put things into perspective.

you reallygot me there dude that blew my mind

Quote
It doesn't matter, primarily because of the 9 time zones a.k.a. "Holy shit! Russian is BIG!". Catch my drift? Furthermore, every wondered what is the fastest way to get help from the Russian Army? You find the biggest army big-shot in the region and appeal to his righteousness (Euphemism for "slap him with a lot of cash") and presto - one Su-34 to your disposal.

i dont really know about that since this is a few dacades in the future but if so it would still be shot down at least thats what i think but lets move on

Quote
Additionally I wanted to point out that the moment China or Russian even looks funny in the direction of Europe, the EU will resurface faster then you could say "Scobby Doo".


mabe mabe not but since they have been at war for so long i dont think even united they would have the resourses to stop china, heck they couldnt do it now they wouldnt do it then

Quote
Plot convenience again, with no elaboration whatsoever
.

i see your point but its manga no matter how good the author is somethings simply have to be comvinient

Quote
How exactly is a shuttle attempt reasonable again? While ascending it's visible as hell and wit no way to defend. If that one was the second best option then i may see why all the rest failed.


first chapter they tried, it failed not because it couldnt launch but it was brought down in hawai becawse the 401 sunk the cruiser that was gonna stop the launch (dont remember the name)

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No, it does not answer the question why the coasts are so deep. You just pulled that one hypothesis out of your ass.


dude just... let ti go, let it go at least with this excuse we can pretend hehe but anyway

Quote
Or lacks the said "taste".


just why the agresion? mabe i ofended you in my last post or i sounded rude but it wasnt my intention sorry if it seemed that way

Quote
Who said anything about ICBMs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_45_torpedo


nice comeback but i still dont think it would reach and they would probably end up loosing the sub and even so we dont know if we would destroy de ships after the clein field is destroied but thats for the author to decide

Quote
well maybe i'm blinded by my bias toward Arc performance because
I loved their past series (Gundam MSV-R: Return of Johnny Ridden and Mobile Suit Gundam: The Gihren Assassination Plot)
but I think that plot wise it's less then what the authors are capable of doing
yet excuse them that this series is more of a tong in cheek perversion of the genre laugh


plot wise i dont think it even started yet, i didnt read those but if its as good as you say this one probably will be better in the future

and just to finish this do you like it or not? because even with all this u seem to have read it several times its a bit confusing
anyway i wait for your reply

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jasperv
Post #512076 - Reply to (#511995) by iluvatar751
Member

11:49 am, Dec 12 2011
Posts: 280


Quote from iluvatar751
Quote
well maybe i'm blinded by my bias ..

plot wise i dont think it even started yet, i didnt read those but if its as good as you say this one probably will be better in the future

and just to finish this do you like it or not? because even with all this u seem to have read it several times its a bit confusing
anyway i wait for your reply

is this question for me? yes definitely I liked this series!
it wasn't clear because you quoted me with the bulk of Wolf570 quotes
and it seems like your said that i'm saying that this series is sub-bar
i'm just agreeing with Wolf570 that script wise it's not as good as what the authors did before
but it's not an excuse to ditch this manga because why make a solid script for a comedic manga? that would be overwriting and a waste of resources for this genre (time that would have been spent on drawing more moe mental models and fan-service)

iluvatar751
Post #512145 - Reply to (#512076) by jasperv
Member

12:24 am, Dec 13 2011
Posts: 43


Quote from jasperv
Quote from iluvatar751
Quote
well maybe i'm blinded by my bias ..

plot wise i dont think it even started yet, i didnt read those but if its as good as you say this one probably will be better in the future

and just to finish this do you like it or not? because even with all this u seem to have read it several times its a bit confusing
anyway i wait for your reply

is this question for me? yes definitely I liked this series!
it wasn't clear because you quoted me with the bulk of Wolf570 quotes
and it seems like your said that i'm saying that this series is sub-bar
i'm just agreeing with Wolf570 that script wise it's not as good as what the authors did before
but it's not an excuse to ditch this manga because why make a solid script for a comedic manga? that would be overwriting and a waste of resources for this genre (time that would have been spent on drawing more moe mental models and fan-service)


the cuestionis for both of you actualy sorry for not making it clear.
and thanks for the clarification

so if you ask me i dont fink serios and comedy are incompatible if we take for example sun ken rock or other series like that

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Wolf570
Post #512597
Member

10:48 am, Dec 15 2011
Posts: 56


Ok, putting all the irrelevant stuff aside.

Quote
just why the agresion? mabe i ofended you in my last post or i sounded rude but it wasnt my intention sorry if it seemed that way

Nah, that's just the way I post, the straight-for-your-throat style. Nowadays if I post something that is longer then a two-liner it's because the subject ticked me of massively. Like here...
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=26417
or here...
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=8734
My blog (I don't post much right now) is full of it.

And you could say I like the confrontation...so keep your apology to yourself, it's not needed smile wink grin
Quote
but it's not an excuse to ditch this manga because why make a solid script for a comedic manga? that would be overwriting and a waste of resources for this genre (time that would have been spent on drawing more moe mental models and fan-service)

You are so wrong (yes, I cannot stress this enough).

I'm a diehard believer in the "writing above all else" school. It's really simple and includes all genres, no matter how much gorgeous the art or how awesome the fan-service... without a solid writing it's still a shallow pound instead of a deep blue sea.

Two examples:
1. Angel Densetsu - when it begun the art was horrendous (actually, this is a perfect title to study the evolution of ones drawing style), but the story caught me right away and keep me reading (one of my all-time-fav).

(here I had the problem with coming up with the second extreme because I prefer to forget titles that suckass, for a moment I was contemplating using Mai-Hime - high level of fanservice and good enough art - but then it struck me, "eureka" I shouted.

2. Freezing (or anything else being unlucky enough to have IM Dal-Young as the author) - top-of-the-line boobage/lower-angle action, top-notch art... unfortunately the story is stupid and doesn't make an ounce of sense. Plus, the atmosphere really likes to make a 180 degree turnaround, it's annoying as hell when there is an ecchi lighthearted comment and then suddenly your back to "I-will-destroy-you-because-I-have-an-emotional-grudge-con nected-to-the-death-of-my-friend"... MAKE UP YOUR FUCKING MIND, JESUS ON A STICK!

I think I'm making my point clear enough.
Quote
so if you ask me i dont fink serios and comedy are incompatible

Of course, but you have to be competent enough to know how to make it work.

Last edited by Wolf570 at 2:02 pm, Dec 15

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iluvatar751
Post #512705
Member

3:19 am, Dec 16 2011
Posts: 43


Quote
Nah, that's just the way I post, the straight-for-your-throat style. Nowadays if I post something that is longer then a two-liner it's because the subject ticked me of massively. Like here...
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=26417
or here...
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=8734
My blog (I don't post much right now) is full of it.

And you could say I like the confrontation...so keep your apology to yourself, it's not needed smile wink grin


ok duly noted thank for clarifing

Quote
You are so wrong (yes, I cannot stress this enough).

I'm a diehard believer in the "writing above all else" school. It's really simple and includes all genres, no matter how much gorgeous the art or how awesome the fan-service... without a solid writing it's still a shallow pound instead of a deep blue sea.

Two examples:
1. Angel Densetsu - when it begun the art was horrendous (actually, this is a perfect title to study the evolution of ones drawing style), but the story caught me right away and keep me reading (one of my all-time-fav).

(here I had the problem with coming up with the second extreme because I prefer to forget titles that suckass, for a moment I was contemplating using Mai-Hime - high level of fanservice and good enough art - but then it struck me, "eureka" I shouted.

2. Freezing (or anything else being unlucky enough to have IM Dal-Young as the author) - top-of-the-line boobage/lower-angle action, top-notch art... unfortunately the story is stupid and doesn't make an ounce of sense. Plus, the atmosphere really likes to make a 180 degree turnaround, it's annoying as hell when there is an ecchi lighthearted comment and then suddenly your back to "I-will-destroy-you-because-I-have-an-emotional-grudge-con nected-to-the-death-of-my-friend"... MAKE UP YOUR FUCKING MIND, JESUS ON A STICK!


yea i see your point completly agree i realy loved angel densetsu and on the other hand i find Freezing a bit dull i only read it beause... now that a think about it i cant think a good reason mabe boredoom but yea its prety boring

even so there is something about arpeggio that i realy liked (i dont think the mental models are much of fan service so its not that) i havent read other works by the same author so i cant compare but even so i found it more compeling than many other works out there and even if there are many issues with the comon sence of the wrighting if we think about every minute detail most series would be imposible to enjoy

just to finish im a BIG sucker for good artwork but if the story doesent correspond it i most of the time leave it unfinished

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jasperv
Post #512766 - Reply to (#512597) by Wolf570
Member

2:50 pm, Dec 16 2011
Posts: 280


Quote from Wolf570
... it's because the subject ticked me of massively. Like here...
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=26417
or here...
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=8734
My blog (I don't post much right now) is full of it.

And you could say I like the confrontation...so keep your apology to yourself, it's not needed smile wink grin

I'm a diehard believer in the "writing above all else" school. It's really simple and includes all genres, no matter how much gorgeous the art or how awesome the fan-service... without a solid writing it's still a shallow pound instead of a deep blue sea.

ah you're that guy who get a boner from Sigyn Erster
and seems like you ticked an admin and got one of your threads locked
I dunno if you're angry against the world or a natural born provocateur
but don't complain when people get it wrong from your written posts (you're in a way like the protag from Angel densetsu)
I coudn't understand your rage against the authors since from the begining of the manga it was clear what kind of stuff we were going to get
so how about writing a serious letter with your complaint to the authors just to show how silly you can be bigrazz
this thread is going to a flame war and risk getting closed so use a more tame tone

partially
Post #543814
Member

2:43 am, Apr 4 2012
Posts: 23


Can't be bothered reading all that stuff. I will say this though, I was actually surprised as it did give a perfectly reasonable and logical explanation as to why the ships are all female. In that early on I forgot which chapter it is asked and the Fog answer with confusion, as they thought all ships were female as that is how they always are referred to by human mariners, hence why they made all their AIs female. And its true, the Navy is very masculine and will almost always refer to ships using a feminine form.

As to the rest of the plot, well yes it gets a tad ludicrous at times, but so what? It doesn't need comedy to still have plain fun.

jasperv
Post #570389 - Reply to (#543814) by partially
Member

10:15 pm, Sep 17 2012
Posts: 280


Actually the may be another explanation
Quote
being "married to a ship" is no idle term. The divorce rate among sailors is a lot higher than the normal average, and it's because the sailor is spending more time with his ship than his wife.
from this
but my take on this is that some old Mediterranean ships used to have a female figureheads and maybe it have relation to Andromeda's mythology (warding-off sea monsters)

Last edited by jasperv at 6:08 pm, Oct 4

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