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Site Poll - Chat Box 169 - Scanlation Watermarks

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KaoriNite
Post #522643
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1:33 pm, Feb 11 2012
Posts: 394


i kind of feel like the option "prefer them outside of the boxes" and "prefer them in the corner somewhere" should be combined. for me it just matters that they aren't in the actual artwork. and that they aren't so large and bright that they are distracting. if you are going to have a watermark it can be visible but it shouldn't be the first thing that my eye goes to on the page. also, i actually prefer words over a picture. i like how some groups simply have their name and their website in a corner or outside a box, rather than some type of artwork, no matter how small the artwork is.

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Highway-STAR
Post #522679
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Inactive Phantom
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5:59 pm, Feb 11 2012
Posts: 1078


Don't care, I'm not paying for it so they can do as they please as long as it doesn't obstruct panel clarity or whatever.

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wotonito
Post #522680 - Reply to (#522643) by KaoriNite
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6:03 pm, Feb 11 2012
Posts: 410


Quote from KaoriNite
i kind of feel like the option "prefer them outside of the boxes" and "prefer them in the corner somewhere" should be combined. for me it just matters that they aren't in the actual artwork. and that they aren't so large and bright that they are distracting. if you are going to have a watermark it can be visible but it shouldn't be the first thing that my eye goes to on the page. also, i actually prefer words over a picture. i like how some groups simply have their name and their website in a corner or outside a box, rather than some type of artwork, no matter how small the artwork is.


I agree completely, there should have been a "as long as it isn't in the way" option

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StarlightDreams
Post #522686
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6:32 pm, Feb 11 2012
Posts: 3891


I don't mind watermarks until they get in the way of enjoying the manga. There are plenty of groups nowadays who plaster huge watermarks over even the dialogue and it makes it extremely annoying and hard to read. I understand if groups want to prevent them from being distributed onto online readers, but there's a limit to how far you should take it.

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MewMan
Post #522690
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hmm~
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6:56 pm, Feb 11 2012
Posts: 940


i don't like watermark but
who am i to talk
i read it for free without contributing anything after all

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naridas
Post #522694 - Reply to (#522686) by StarlightDreams
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7:29 pm, Feb 11 2012
Posts: 6


Quote from StarlightDreams
I don't mind watermarks until they get in the way of enjoying the manga. There are plenty of groups nowadays who plaster huge watermarks over even the dialogue and it makes it extremely annoying and hard to read. I understand if groups want to prevent them from being distributed onto online readers, but there's a limit to how far you should take it.


Just wondering which groups who plaster huge watermarks? Most the time they are small and dont affect it really. The only groups i know that do huge watermarks is A-team but they release the unwatermark version later so i dont mind. i know a lot people that whine about A-team but i dont want to discuss it just saying beforehand. Japanazai does this to certain readers but u can read them fine on Batoto or when the wait is over and they release the unwatermarker version. Other than those two I cant think of any

StarlightDreams
Post #522700 - Reply to (#522694) by naridas
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7:58 pm, Feb 11 2012
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Quote from naridas
Quote from StarlightDreams
I don't mind watermarks until they get in the way of enjoying the manga. There are plenty of groups nowadays who plaster huge watermarks over even the dialogue and it makes it extremely annoying and hard to read. I understand if groups want to prevent them from being distributed onto online readers, but there's a limit to how far you should take it.


Just wondering which groups who plaster huge watermarks? Most the time they are small and dont affect it really. The only groups i know that do huge watermarks is A-team but they release the unwatermark version later so i dont mind. i know a lot people that whine about A-team but i dont want to discuss it just saying beforehand. Japanazai does this to certain readers but u can read them fine on Batoto or when the wait is over and they release the unwatermarker version. Other than those two I cant think of any


The ones I was thinking of was Japanazai, A-Team, and Doko Demo Doa. I exaggerated when I said plenty, there may be some others I don't know about. Maybe they've changed some of their policies, but I no longer read any projects by them because of the experience I've had with their watermarks.
I don't read manga on online readers and I go straight to the scanlator's website when I see it reported. I download them right then and there. Why should I have to change the way I read manga or wait a week to read something...readable? :/ I don't mind small watermarks, as long as it doesn't cover up the art too much (EX: I've always liked how Esthétique did their watermarks.). To me, it's the same as groups who have posting requirements or upload it onto readers and won't post a download link until after a waiting period.

Last edited by StarlightDreams at 8:03 pm, Feb 11

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Lynkz
Post #522704
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Wish I was a real
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8:23 pm, Feb 11 2012
Posts: 18


outside the box and in a corner are useless. anyone who wanted to steal credit could erase it w/ MS paint with no training.. just white erase. nd some1 before mentioned that credits pages were enough... they(mangafox and it's affiliates) sometimes just remove the credits page before uploading the scanlation to their site and watermark it themselves, sometimes covering up interesting(or for beginners, needed) translator or editor notes.

i prefer a light transparent watermark splashed all over or centered in the art so i can "tune it out" and it doesn't distract me from the story. that way those wascally thieves can't remove it w/o editing the whole page and actually working for it.

also, if noone visits the thief sites and they're forced to close down due to lower web hits resulting in loss of add sponsorship, we can avoid watermarks all together... in a perfect world.


also, i'm a leech all the way. I have not enough time to dedicate my body to the benefit of all, so i admire scanlators and wish to show my support to them in anyway i can. dealing with watermarks and downloading directly from the source is the least i can do.


Naridas - I was about to post and i read your quote. ^^; as fo an annoying watermark I hate some of the Billwang marks, it's the only one i hate, but i also find their overall quality to be lacking so it would only make sense i hate they way they watermark. in some of their releases they put it in a different spot on every page, and it's too cluttered to even be remotely transparent.

A-teams is nice because i can see through it and i have no problem w/ theirs, and like you said, i can get a no-mark ed. later. smile

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RevanRevanchist
Post #522718
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Scripting Genius
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9:55 pm, Feb 11 2012
Posts: 19


The entire point to scanlation groups putting their watermarks over the artwork is to make it impossible for the readers that steal the scans from the scanlators before their grace period is up to remove the watermark. If the manga readers want to have the scans so badly, then they really should scanlate it themselves. I personally like what some scanlation groups (see Japanzai) are doing with their watermarks that make it so that certain readers (Batoto) that respect their policies can display it correctly, whereas other readers can't.

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penguin71
Post #522728
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11:18 pm, Feb 11 2012
Posts: 53


I think there is a very logical and understandable explanation behind scanlation watermarks. If anyone wants to read the long explanation here it is.

1. Scanlators want people to read their manga
2. Some scanlators want credit for what they've put work into by displaying their credits and having procedures on when and where to host
3. Online aggregate sites take the scanlated manga and host it without regard to their requests. Note: some sites, like Batoto, make attempt at following scanlator wishes, at the cost of a smaller archive of manga
4. Aggregate sites, due to the convenience of having all manga in one place, make tons of money off ads while sacrificing little to none on hosting the manga ripped from other scanlators
5. Some scanlators are angry at those aggregate sites for disregarding their rules
6. Some scanlators put up watermarks, obnoxious or not, to mark their work as their own and to make readers notice that YES, there are real people scanlating the manga. Note: By "work" I mean the EDITING of the work, NOT the work itself (that of course is the mangaka's work).
7. Readers, mainly leechers, get mad over having their manga get watermarked. Some ignore the watermarks, some drop the manga, some rage and accuse of the scanlators for watermarking
8. Scanlators face a choice: continue watermarking and face potential outcry, stop watermarking and continue to have their rules ignored, or stop scanlating completely and abandon their original purpose of spreading the love of manga.

The biggest argument again watermarking seems to be "it isn't your work so you have no right to dictate rules for who and when to host it". My view tends to be that scanlators have every right to watermark, even if it makes the scanlation entirely illegible. Why? Because it is their work that made it available to others to begin with. Yes, the manga is not theirs. Yes, they scanlate for readers. But since the readers (read: leechers), did not contribute, they really have no right to complain and no obligation to the scanlator's work.

Here's an analogy to what I mean.

Once upon a time, someone began to make bagels and sell them. Only those with money and understanding of the bagel could fully appreciate and acquire sustenance from the bagel. He was called the creator.

One day, someone bought some bagels, converted it to a form where others could understand and appreciate them, and let others take them. He wanted other to be able to appreciate the wonder of the creator's bagels. He set some rules on when to take them but couldn't really enforce their rules. His distribution site was small, and so not everyone knew about it. He was called the distributor.

Some time later, a person decided to collect all the converted bagels from various distributors, and give them all out at one site. They ignored the distributor's rules and also began selling ad space around their site. He was called the aggregator.

A short while later, someone walked by the much grander aggregate site and took a converted bagel from the aggregator. He was amazed by the quality of the converted bagel and began to go there regularly. He was called the receiver.

Some distributors became annoyed because their converted bagels were being taken and given out without regard to their rules. They appealed to the receivers to come directly to them when getting converted bagels.

Many of the receivers ignored the distributors and continued to get their converted bagels from the much more convenient aggregator, who by this point had made quite a sum of money from selling ad space.

Several days later, the distributor bought a bagel as usual and converted it, but this time put bird shit in the bagel. The aggregator took it as usual and receivers got their converted bagels from the aggregator as usual.

Later, the receiver goes to the aggregator and complains about the shit in the converted bagel. The aggregator claims that he neither made nor converted the bagel. He points to the distributor and says that all converting was done by him.

The receiver goes to the distributor and complains that the converted bagel has shit in it. The receiver demands that the shit be taken out and that future bagels contain no shit.

The distributor tells the receiver that he should have listened to him or this wouldn't have happened. The receiver tells the distributor that no one will take their converted bagels if there is shit in them. The receiver also states that they have no right to put shit in the bagel since it's not their bagel to begin with.

The distributor shrugs and tells the receiver that if he doesn't want a shitty bagel then he shouldn't take it. The receiver claims that the distributor has abandoned his original purpose and the receiver. The distributor responds by saying that it is the receivers who have abandoned them.

Zina
Post #522739
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Member

11:54 pm, Feb 11 2012
Posts: 89


I was reading this manga once as it was released by the scanlators. However, the manga hosting sites weren't following the scanlators rules about the small wait time before posting the manga. The scanlators ended up putting a huge dark watermark down the middle of each page expressing their discontentment with the specific site, explaining that the watermark would only be removed from their releases after the manga hosting site started following the rules.

As much as it was annoying as heck, I couldn't help but cheer on the scanlators. It's their production, and beggars can't be choosers. It also made the hosting site look like a complete fool. bigrazz

In conclusion, I don't mind watermarks, and power to the scanlators who use them. eyes

P.S. The bagel story made me giggle. XD

LordZel
Post #522741
Member

12:05 am, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 3


Based on poll results so far:

30.6% keeping it real

25.4% have lowered standards

23.5% don't realize scanlation does not give you ownership of the manga

0.3% are scanlators that use watermarks

1.5% are trolling

18.9% are people who don't read scanlation/wanted to see the results

It's fairly well known that scanlation groups that use watermarks don't read scanlations. If they did, watermarks would piss them off too.

Defacing the work you claim to love just to spite sites like mangafox is full on retarded.

Quote from penguin71
The biggest argument again watermarking seems to be "it isn't your work so you have no right to dictate rules for who and when to host it". My view tends to be that scanlators have every right to watermark, even if it makes the scanlation entirely illegible. Why? Because it is their work that made it available to others to begin with. Yes, the manga is not theirs. Yes, they scanlate for readers. But since the readers (read: leechers), did not contribute, they really have no right to complain and no obligation to the scanlator's work.


You were actually doing good up until this point in your post.

You're wrong, the biggest argument against watermarking is that these scanlators are defacing the very works they claim to love and promote. It would be better for them to just quit scanlating than to use watermarks. It is not their work. It is someone else's work. They merely translate it (and some rare ones even do redrawing to make the translation fit). If they released a translation script as an image and watermarked that, then you would be right. However, that's not the case and they should feel a deep shame for defacing the very works they claim to care about.

Finally, I just want to add that your analogy is a bagel load of shit.

Last edited by lambchopsil at 8:29 am, Feb 12

penguin71
Post #522746
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Member

12:19 am, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 53


It's just my opinion on the matter, so I don't expect everyone to agree with it. And well no one likes shitty bagels, but if that's all they'll give then we don't have to take them.

"It's fairly well known that scanlation groups that use watermarks don't read scanlations. If they did, watermarks would piss them off too."

How is this "well known"? Where did you hear this from? And scanlation groups don't read scanlations? That's like saying that engineers don't live in houses. Why would they scanlate if they don't read scanlations?

"Defacing the work you claim to love just to spite sites like mangafox is full on retarded."

If someone takes your water every day, you might decide to poison it one day because you don't like them taking your water. Anger and retaliation isn't retarded, especially if you drank from the water before you poisoned it.


Last edited by penguin71 at 12:32 am, Feb 12

LordZel
Post #522755 - Reply to (#522746) by penguin71
Member

12:49 am, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 3


Quote from penguin71
"It's fairly well known that scanlation groups that use watermarks don't read scanlations. If they did, watermarks would piss them off too."

How is this "well known"? Where did you hear this from? And scanlation groups don't read scanlations? That's like saying that engineers don't live in houses. Why would they scanlate if they don't read scanlations?


It's simple logic. Anyone who reads scanlation would find watermarks obnoxious. Also, you have to be able to read raws to scanlate. If you can read raws, you don't have to find a scanlation to read it. Further, some scanlation groups are in it for profit only. They really don't care about the manga. Perhaps, I was wrong for assuming most people could use basic logic. You really do enjoy your bad analogies. You're a very apples and oranges type.

Quote from penguin71
"Defacing the work you claim to love just to spite sites like mangafox is full on retarded."

If someone takes your water every day, you might decide to poison it one day because you don't like them taking your water. Anger and retaliation isn't retarded, especially if you drank from the water before you poisoned it.


Yeah, anger, retaliation and poisoned wells are all full on retarded. As I said, they'd be better off just quitting scanlation.

Just so you know, I've participated in both scanlation and subbing. I've never considered watermarking or hard subbed logos a good idea. Though, I'm guilty of contributing to the second.

penguin71
Post #522757 - Reply to (#522755) by LordZel
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1:07 am, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 53


Quote from LordZel
It's simple logic. Anyone who reads scanlation would find watermarks obnoxious. Also, you have to be able to read raws to scanlate. If you can read raws, you don't have to find a scanlation to read it. Further, some scanlation groups are in it for profit only. They really don't care about the manga. Perhaps, I was wrong for assuming most people could use basic logic. You really do enjoy your bad analogies. You're a very apples and oranges type.


Of course watermarks are obnoxious, that's the point. They're trying to get the reader's attention. "Some scanlation groups are in it for profit only"...but what does that have to do with watermarking? Most scanlation groups work without profit. In fact, many go in the red from buying raws to work on them. How can these groups "not care about the manga" when they're putting effort into scanlating and not receiving anything for it? The most thing they can get is recognition for their work, which of course can also be taken sites use their work without giving proper credit.

Your argument that I cannot use basic logic is uncalled for. Have you run out of things to say that you have to insult me personally instead?

Quote
Yeah, anger, retaliation and poisoned wells are all full on retarded. As I said, they'd be better off just quitting scanlation.

Just so you know, I've participated in both scanlation and subbing. I've never considered watermarking or hard subbed logos a good idea. Though, I'm guilty of contributing to the second.


If you've participated in both scanlating and subbing, I'm sure you would understand if someone were to take your work and use it as they please. Maybe you don't care, but plenty of people who scanlate and sub DO care, and if they need to put up obnoxious watermarks to show that they care, then they can do it. Just because you don't think it's a good idea doesn't mean others think the same way. That's why it's called an opinion.

Honestly, there really isn't a right answer to this dilemma. Scanlating itself is a legally ambiguous topic (possibly equivalent to pirating). My view is that scanlators can do what they wish with their work because they did it. Your view is that they shouldn't deface "what they claim to love" when they "don't care about manga". You have your view and I have mine. I don't want this thread about a poll turning into a flame war so let's just leave it at that.


Last edited by penguin71 at 1:18 am, Feb 12

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