manga04_jpg login_tab_left_jpg
Username:   Password:    Forgot Password?
App
Try out our new iPhone application!
App
Manga Poll
Which kind of story would you find more interesting
Dystopia
Utopia
 
See Old Polls

Manga is the Japanese equivalent of comics
with a unique style and following. Join the revolution! Read some manga today!

Coded in ConTEXT

Join #baka-updates @irc.irchighway.net

RSS Feed
 
center_left_tab Forums center_right_tab

You are now viewing a topic.

Site Poll - Chat Box 169 - Scanlation Watermarks

Back to Chatter Box


Pages (5) [ 1 2 3 4 5 ] Next You must be registered to post!
From User Message Body
KILION
Post #522760
user avatar
Viva la anarchy
Member

1:15 am, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 111


Woooow another wall of text above..... laugh
"Site Poll - Chat Box 169 - Scanlation Watermarks" >I don't care as long as it's readable.


________________
User Posted Image
User Posted ImageR[̲̅ə̲̅٨̲̅٥ ̲̅٦̲̅]ution
penguin71
Post #522762
user avatar
Member

1:20 am, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 53


@KILION

I'm sorry for the walls of text. I'm not a big fan of them either. I suppose that I just have very strong opinions when it comes to scanlating.

tl;dr: Watermarks don't matter to me.

Last edited by penguin71 at 1:25 am, Feb 12

Pikapu
Post #522763 - Reply to (#522760) by KILION
user avatar
 Member

1:28 am, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 1979


Pretty much the same opinion as Kashi. Er, Identity Crisis.

Quote from KILION
Woooow another wall of text above..... laugh
"Site Poll - Chat Box 169 - Scanlation Watermarks" >I don't care as long as it's readable.

Woooow another pointless post~ laugh

No love,
Pika.

________________
User Posted Image
Quote from LawX
You are like the dense main character in a shoujo manga.
Quote from Crenshinibon
And you will murder someone one day, pika. If you're my daughter.
KILION
Post #522773 - Reply to (#522763) by Pikapu
user avatar
Viva la anarchy
Member

2:03 am, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 111


Quote from Pikapu
Pretty much the same opinion as Kashi. Er, Identity Crisis.

Quote from KILION
Woooow another wall of text above..... laugh
"Site Poll - Chat Box 169 - Scanlation Watermarks" >I don't care as long as it's readable.

Woooow another pointless post~ laugh

No love,
Pika.

Wooooow glad that your post was so amusing and relevant....laugh


________________
User Posted Image
User Posted ImageR[̲̅ə̲̅٨̲̅٥ ̲̅٦̲̅]ution
Naeko
Post #522775
Member

2:12 am, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 21


Part of the problem is that a relatively small group of fans are highly vocal on multiple forums against watermarks. The manga is still understandable and in most cases, a no-watermark version is released later. So, since the scanlators do release unwatermarked issues later, what is the real complaint about?

Fans From Hell is a cliche term that might be applicable here. Fans are notoriously deliberately ignorant about issues going on until it is forced into a spotlight such as internet sites staging a info or blackout day about SOPA, PIPA, and ACTA. Of course, there were angry complaints that blackouts should not have occurred. The real issue here is profiteering by aggregator sites. The scanlators are not the profiteers. Aggregators with ads can be very profitable especially since they don't split the revenue as Google does with youtube ads; note that quite a few youtube uploaders make hundreds of thousands of dollars each year just from splitting the ad revenue with google.

Why do neofans support for-profit aggregators like Mangafox? Is there a lack of morals? Here is some info from a knowledgeable user in forum that was linked to in a user comment at the A-Team website. It is important to note that aggregators force scanlators to become blamed for the crime of profiteering even though the scanlators were not doing so in themselves.

Few of you are familiar with NOEZ - the company that runs Mangafox which is an aggregator of manga and inconsiderate of scanlator's wishes about not profiteering. The number provided by NOEZ for site visits is approx 80 million visits. This means that they earn an amount in thousands from Mangafox daily.

Mangafox is but one of their anime piracy revenue sources. NOEZ also owns Wallpaperfox.com, Wallpaperhere.com, Mangahere.com, Animehere.com and Anime-eden.com. They all bring in ad revenue. Anime-eden is now defunct, much to the dismay of its subcribers. That's right, subcribers. Anime-eden had a payment subscription for the many anime series it hosted that had been fansubbed by others. Their otakushop.com sells unlicensed merchandise. Their multiple businesses have profit margins based upon piracy. It's unfair to fans spending a LOT of their time scanlating and/or fansubbing the work for others for no profit. Most of all, it is unfair on the anime and manga industry.

Other less known sites by NOEZ include Otakuzone.com, Animeonline.net and game321.com. They operate under 'Ngames Limited' for online gaming ventures. You also won't find much about these in a whois search because NOEZ use private domain registration.

Currently, NOEZ has profitable businesses in the online gaming, animation and comic book reprinting industry. I can't imagine what their cumulative revenue could be, but it's obvious they barely spend money on much besides themselves and server costs for their sites. That's a large profit margin. They then take that money and invest a minimum amount in other less shady business ventures, such as their games. However, even their games are suspicious. The anime-inspired “Pockie Ninja” is a blatant rip-off and an attempt with minimum effort and huge profits. Again, the efforts and intellectual property of other individuals have been profitable for NOEZ. They rely hugely on the ignorance of their visitors and their customers.

It is definite that they operate in China. When searching for their parent company in chinese ( which is 'Hangzhou promise of science and technology' according to Google translate), the results are mainly job vacancy sites with the same contact details. The most interesting result to surface is this, which reveals the name of a 'President' of the company. A certain Ong Yong Ye (I expect there's a translation issue. Google translate's a bitch) seems to be the president of Hangzhou promise of science and technology. There isn't much info about Mr.Ye because due to moonrune reading problems. However, the name Mr.Ye is probably a fake. So far, a lot of names have popped up. NOEZ. Ngames Limited. Hangzhou promise of science and technology. It's pretty clear that they specialise in deception and online piracy. More people need to know and understand their true nature and the way they operate. It is also probably they have other piracy ventures we don't know about.

The site Noez.com.cn is down, so here are some screencaps for your research and proof at:
http://imgur.com/a/cIL1r/all#0

blake77
Post #522847
Member

9:48 am, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 32


The problem with watermarks is that most of them are quite intrusive. Since scanlations is a visual medium, this can detract from the story itself. This also reduces the desire to collect the scanlation. Mind you, while I didn't like watermarks, I was willing to tolerate it until A-Team used pornographic material as watermark. While it was understandable why they did it (so that Mangafox would not be able to use their scans), this actually disrespected their fans who belong to a global community where some of them might view it as a culturally offensive behaviour. As for the non watermarked versions, I have seldom seen such releases announced, so I wouldn't know about them.

Support for the aggregator sites however is a different but related issue. Sometimes it is because the scanlators make the fans jump through hoops to get the scans, sometimes, for whatever technical reasons they can't download the files (blocked site, low disk space etc.), or they could actually fail to understand how to download the file ( IRC ). While these are only excuses, for some files, aggregators are the only way they could get the scans, either because the scanlators died out or the groups download links were removed due to policy or legal threats.

naridas
Post #522870 - Reply to (#522847) by blake77
user avatar
Member

2:16 pm, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 6


Quote from blake77
The problem with watermarks is that most of them are quite intrusive. Since scanlations is a visual medium, this can detract from the story itself. This also reduces the desire to collect the scanlation. Mind you, while I didn't like watermarks, I was willing to tolerate it until A-Team used pornographic material as watermark. While it was understandable why they did it (so that Mangafox would not be able to use their scans), this actually disrespected their fans who belong to a global community where some of them might view it as a culturally offensive behaviour. As for the non watermarked versions, I have seldom seen such releases announced, so I wouldn't know about them.

Support for the aggregator sites however is a different but related issue. Sometimes it is because the scanlators make the fans jump through hoops to get the scans, sometimes, for whatever technical reasons they can't download the files (blocked site, low disk space etc.), or they could actually fail to understand how to download the file ( IRC ). While these are only excuses, for some files, aggregators are the only way they could get the scans, either because the scanlators died out or the groups download links were removed due to policy or legal threats.


about the A-team thing, i found it hilarious tbh but i guess u might call my sense of humour weird. Since i actually go to their site and they specifically said there will be NSFW images on this and they will release an UN-WM version later so I just waited. IMO people who read from MF are not fans of the scanlation group, your a fan when you go directly to their site and dl or read from their links.


tl;dr I found the whole A-team thing funny(sort of like an inside joke). A-team didnt disrespect their fans at all because if they were fans in the first place they would of read their post and would be laughing at MF with them.

but all in all thats just my viewpoint so dont kill me for it xD


The Steed
Post #522885
user avatar
Mind Wrack
Member

3:44 pm, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 212


All over the place!

Yours Faithfully,
The Steed

________________
He who hides the truth with lies,
Will only be left with his inner cries.

Sincerely Yours,
The Steed
blake77
Post #522891 - Reply to (#522870) by naridas
Member

4:31 pm, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 32


Quote from naridas
about the A-team thing, i found it hilarious tbh but i guess u might call my sense of humour weird. Since i actually go to their site and they specifically said there will be NSFW images on this and they will release an UN-WM version later so I just waited. IMO people who read from MF are not fans of the scanlation group, your a fan when you go directly to their site and dl or read from their links.


What they actually posted on their release is this: Breakertard

Quote
Breakertard, what a great new word I read last week, when i was reading all the hate and trolls.
It was pointed out i might have been slightly over zealous with the watermarks, by lumping everyone with mangafox.
A new wm has fixed that.

Also someone else mentioned they would still read it, even if i plastered the pages with something else,
So for you reader, enjoy.

Yes its probably a massive dick move, I might actually relent and release a non-wm version on Sunday,
Just depends on the amount of hate I’ll get this time I guess.


Now where did they say it was NSFW? It was possible that they said it in the comments of the previous Breaker release but it was never said in the release announcement itself. I thought it would be a translucent image pasted on the scans, and not what was actually pasted on them. And secondly, it was not that they will release a non-wm version, it was that they might release a non-wm version.

p.s.
While humor might be universal, what is humorous isn't.

chineserider
Post #522892
user avatar
Persona non grata
Member

4:36 pm, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 1490


Watermarks goes unnoticed for me until they block out parts of the manga page. Watermarks like those that Doko Demo Doa puts on every page block out some of the images and words is something that annoys me greatly.

________________
Nulla in mundo pax sincera
User Posted Image
"Always go too far, because that's where you'll find the truth." - Albert Camus
p3pelepe
Post #522896
Member

4:49 pm, Feb 12 2012
Posts: 312


It doesn't matter to me as long as the chapter still readable. Some scanlator also upload non-watermark version afterwards, so usually I wait for the clean version. It just bugs me when watermarks are all over the place (e.g. Doko Demo Doa). I stopped reading their scanlation long ago because I can't stand that huge watermark on every page.

Naeko
Post #522955 - Reply to (#522694) by naridas
Member

12:30 am, Feb 13 2012
Posts: 21


Quote from naridas
The only groups i know that do huge watermarks is A-team but they release the unwatermark version later so i dont mind. i know a lot people that whine about A-team but i dont want to discuss it just saying beforehand. Japanazai does this to certain readers but u can read them fine on Batoto or when the wait is over and they release the unwatermarker version.


The real scanlation fans go to the scanlation groups' webpages. The leechers just go to the reader site and do two bad things: (1) support piracy for profit, (2) force scanlators into being prosecutable as accessories in piracy for profit if law enforcement decides to go after a reader site. It is a reasonable worry that both scanlators and manga fans have.




LordZel
Post #522960 - Reply to (#522757) by penguin71
Member

1:14 am, Feb 13 2012
Posts: 3


Quote from penguin71
Of course watermarks are obnoxious, that's the point. They're trying to get the reader's attention. "Some scanlation groups are in it for profit only"...but what does that have to do with watermarking? Most scanlation groups work without profit. In fact, many go in the red from buying raws to work on them. How can these groups "not care about the manga" when they're putting effort into scanlating and not receiving anything for it? The most thing they can get is recognition for their work, which of course can also be taken sites use their work without giving proper credit.


You really fail to grasp the basic concept that the manga does not belong to the scanlators and they're defacing the very thing they claim to love by putting watermarks on them. If you don't understand something as basic as spite being something that defeats its own purpose, then it really is pointless to even argue.

Quote from penguin71
Your argument that I cannot use basic logic is uncalled for. Have you run out of things to say that you have to insult me personally instead?


I call it as it is. If you feel insulted by the truth, that's your problem.

Quote from penguin71
If you've participated in both scanlating and subbing, I'm sure you would understand if someone were to take your work and use it as they please. Maybe you don't care, but plenty of people who scanlate and sub DO care, and if they need to put up obnoxious watermarks to show that they care, then they can do it. Just because you don't think it's a good idea doesn't mean others think the same way. That's why it's called an opinion.

Honestly, there really isn't a right answer to this dilemma. Scanlating itself is a legally ambiguous topic (possibly equivalent to pirating). My view is that scanlators can do what they wish with their work because they did it. Your view is that they shouldn't deface "what they claim to love" when they "don't care about manga". You have your view and I have mine. I don't want this thread about a poll turning into a flame war so let's just leave it at that.


Personally, I wouldn't care what others do with my work because I'm intelligent enough to realize that you can't own information. I'd go into further detail about ownership and information but it's a bit off topic and I feel it would be lost on you.

Just because you think watermarks are a good idea, doesn't mean it is (see what I did there). Defacing someone else's work to protest another website making profit from your work is not only ironic, unethical and illegal but it is counter-intuitive to your own goals. Simply put, there are no benefits to watermarks.

Watermarks don't encourage people to avoid for profit sites. In fact, watermarks can encourage people to go to the for profit sites just to avoid watermarks.

If you want to put a stop to for profit sites, either provide a better site, stop scanlating entirely or find another constructive way to get people to take notice. If you really wanted to do something to get a reader's attention to the problem, you could intentionally delay the release of a popular manga. It's the same type of attention grabbing as watermarks but it doesn't require you to deface the works you are trying to promote and it'll actually grab attention that can be focused onto the problem rather than just making them move on to better sites.

Quote from Naeko
Part of the problem is that a relatively small group of fans are highly vocal on multiple forums against watermarks. The manga is still understandable and in most cases, a no-watermark version is released later. So, since the scanlators do release unwatermarked issues later, what is the real complaint about?


The real complaint is that scanlators are defacing the very manga they claim to promote in order to spite the sites profiting from their scanlations. They don't even pretend that it's for the benefit of the original mangaka.

The scanlators that truly promote manga aren't going to deface them out of spite.

Quote from Naeko
Fans From Hell is a cliche term that might be applicable here. Fans are notoriously deliberately ignorant about issues going on until it is forced into a spotlight such as internet sites staging a info or blackout day about SOPA, PIPA, and ACTA. Of course, there were angry complaints that blackouts should not have occurred. The real issue here is profiteering by aggregator sites. The scanlators are not the profiteers. Aggregators with ads can be very profitable especially since they don't split the revenue as Google does with youtube ads; note that quite a few youtube uploaders make hundreds of thousands of dollars each year just from splitting the ad revenue with google.

Why do neofans support for-profit aggregators like Mangafox? Is there a lack of morals?


It's really typical to blame the fans but the truth is that, if there was a better site that wasn't for profit and wasn't defacing the manga, most readers would go there. It really is that simple. The majority of people want the best quality for the least effort. Morality plays a part but, for most people, if morals get in the way of convenience, they'll gladly set them aside. No, not everyone is like that. People who actually care and have strong moral convictions will buy the manga (if available to them), refuse to support those who profit off of another person's work and don't read scanlations with watermarks.

It's ironic you bring up blackout day, seeing as a blackout would be far more constructive than watermarks. With manga being a weekly/monthly/bimonthly/etc. type thing, it'd probably take a blackout longer than a day to get attention though.

tl;dr: Watermarks are more likely to promote a for profit site than to destroy it, making them entirely pointless.

7godeohs
Post #522965
Member

1:59 am, Feb 13 2012
Posts: 138


I'm like a lot of people here who don't really care as long as it's not plastered all over the artwork. I would prefer no watermarks, but it's their scanlation and they can do whatever they want to the work they put in. I would vote for a corner outside boxes (upper-left if you want to get specific).

As long as the groups that plaster their watermarks over every page (to piss off aggregators) actually release a non-watermarked version I am fine with that. If the smallest gesture of thanks I can provide is to visit their site and download it directly from the source, thereby not supporting a for-profit site, then that's fine by me.

Identity Crisis
Post #522969 - Reply to (#522960) by LordZel
user avatar
Ever the optimist
Super Mod

2:54 am, Feb 13 2012
Posts: 4881


So, I just read some new manga chapters, and I've got to say that Japanzai is fucking ridiculous. Honestly, I'm glad things are getting released, and that I can read them now, and I am more than capable of waiting for an unwatermarked version, but its the principal behind it, man. They shouldn't be fucking obnoxious about it, when THEY themselves upload it to a reader site. Fucking arrogant faggots.

Also, I like a lot of the points this guy made, so I'm quoting him, despite it being a long post, which I usually hate. :3

Quote from LordZel
Quote from penguin71
Of course watermarks are obnoxious, that's the point. They're trying to get the reader's attention. "Some scanlation groups are in it for profit only"...but what does that have to do with watermarking? Most scanlation groups work without profit. In fact, many go in the red from buying raws to work on them. How can these groups "not care about the manga" when they're putting effort into scanlating and not receiving anything for it? The most thing they can get is recognition for their work, which of course can also be taken sites use their work without giving proper credit.


You really fail to grasp the basic concept that the manga does not belong to the scanlators and they're defacing the very thing they claim to love by putting watermarks on them. If you don't understand something as basic as spite being something that defeats its own purpose, then it really is pointless to even argue.

Quote from penguin71
Your argument that I cannot use basic logic is uncalled for. Have you run out of things to say that you have to insult me personally instead?


I call it as it is. If you feel insulted by the truth, that's your problem.

Quote from penguin71
If you've participated in both scanlating and subbing, I'm sure you would understand if someone were to take your work and use it as they please. Maybe you don't care, but plenty of people who scanlate and sub DO care, and if they need to put up obnoxious watermarks to show that they care, then they can do it. Just because you don't think it's a good idea doesn't mean others think the same way. That's why it's called an opinion.

Honestly, there really isn't a right answer to this dilemma. Scanlating itself is a legally ambiguous topic (possibly equivalent to pirating). My view is that scanlators can do what they wish with their work because they did it. Your view is that they shouldn't deface "what they claim to love" when they "don't care about manga". You have your view and I have mine. I don't want this thread about a poll turning into a flame war so let's just leave it at that.


Personally, I wouldn't care what others do with my work because I'm intelligent enough to realize that you can't own information. I'd go into further detail about ownership and information but it's a bit off topic and I feel it would be lost on you.

Just because you think watermarks are a good idea, doesn't mean it is (see what I did there). Defacing someone else's work to protest another website making profit from your work is not only ironic, unethical and illegal but it is counter-intuitive to your own goals. Simply put, there are no benefits to watermarks.

Watermarks don't encourage people to avoid for profit sites. In fact, watermarks can encourage people to go to the for profit sites just to avoid watermarks.

If you want to put a stop to for profit sites, either provide a better site, stop scanlating entirely or find another constructive way to get people to take notice. If you really wanted to do something to get a reader's attention to the problem, you could intentionally delay the release of a popular manga. It's the same type of attention grabbing as watermarks but it doesn't require you to deface the works you are trying to promote and it'll actually grab attention that can be focused onto the problem rather than just making them move on to better sites.

Quote from Naeko
Part of the problem is that a relatively small group of fans are highly vocal on multiple forums against watermarks. The manga is still understandable and in most cases, a no-watermark version is released later. So, since the scanlators do release unwatermarked issues later, what is the real complaint about?


The real complaint is that scanlators are defacing the very manga they claim to promote in order to spite the sites profiting from their scanlations. They don't even pretend that it's for the benefit of the original mangaka.

The scanlators that truly promote manga aren't going to deface them out of spite.

Quote from Naeko
Fans From Hell is a cliche term that might be applicable here. Fans are notoriously deliberately ignorant about issues going on until it is forced into a spotlight such as internet sites staging a info or blackout day about SOPA, PIPA, and ACTA. Of course, there were angry complaints that blackouts should not have occurred. The real issue here is profiteering by aggregator sites. The scanlators are not the profiteers. Aggregators with ads can be very profitable especially since they don't split the revenue as Google does with youtube ads; note that quite a few youtube uploaders make hundreds of thousands of dollars each year just from splitting the ad revenue with google.

Why do neofans support for-profit aggregators like Mangafox? Is there a lack of morals?


It's really typical to blame the fans but the truth is that, if there was a better site that wasn't for profit and wasn't defacing the manga, most readers would go there. It really is that simple. The majority of people want the best quality for the least effort. Morality plays a part but, for most people, if morals get in the way of convenience, they'll gladly set them aside. No, not everyone is like that. People who actually care and have strong moral convictions will buy the manga (if available to them), refuse to support those who profit off of another person's work and don't read scanlations with watermarks.

It's ironic you bring up blackout day, seeing as a blackout would be far more constructive than watermarks. With manga being a weekly/monthly/bimonthly/etc. type thing, it'd probably take a blackout longer than a day to get attention though.

tl;dr: Watermarks are more likely to promote a for profit site than to destroy it, making them entirely pointless.



Pages (5) [ 1 2 3 4 5 ] Next You must be registered to post!

Back to Chatter Box  Back to Top

Search This Topic:
 
Manga Search
MANGA Fu
MEMBERS
TEAM-BU


footer