manga04_jpg login_tab_left_jpg
Username:   Password:    Forgot Password?
App
Try out our new iPhone application!
App
Manga Poll
You start a series but partway through it goes in a totally different direction that you dislike, you...
Continue, resolved to finish the series no matter what
Continue but stop reading if it gets any worse
Pause and wait or research what happens later to judge if should continue reading
Give up right away and stop reading
 
See Old Polls

Manga is the Japanese equivalent of comics
with a unique style and following. Join the revolution! Read some manga today!

Coded in ConTEXT

Join #baka-updates @irc.irchighway.net

RSS Feed
 
center_left_tab Forums center_right_tab

You are now viewing a topic.

The Lolicon Shotacon Debate

Back to News  See threaded view


Pages (22) [ 1 2 3 4 ... Last ] Next You must be registered to post!
From User Message Body
Manick
Post #534819
user avatar
Untitled


2:48 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 2214


I'm sure everyone has heard about the debate raging in the wild about Lolicon and Shotacon titles recently. If not, there is some good information here and here to bring yourselves up to speed. We still don't know why we were targeted, or why we were banned from Adsense, but we're now operating under the assumption that it is related to the Lolicon/Shotacon controversy. There's nothing we can do about this, and we ask everyone not to blame Google. They are a business, and they have to look out for their interests first and foremost.

How exactly do I feel about this situation? The best word to sum it up would be 'conflicted'. I'm no fan of Lolicon or Shotacon. I don't think they serve any ultimate benefit to anyone whatsoever. However, I also do not believe that anyone has any business outlawing a simple drawing on a piece of paper. I cannot comprehend what possible crime anyone is committing simply by the act of perception--by looking at a fictional representation. It seems no less poignant to me than the debate about South Park's "201". Regardless, this discussion transcends myself. What remains is how we deal with reality.

Let me reiterate to everyone that MangaUpdates does not host manga. We have never and will never host manga on our servers. Our primary goal as a website is to provide information. In fact, we encourage you to buy series that you enjoy, and help out the industry. However, as part of our legacy services, we do provide links to third party websites (when provided by our users) which host unlicensed manga scanlations. This is what I would like to discuss with you today.

With pressure on Japan to tighten its laws on Lolicon and Shotacon, and many other countries including the US blocking the content as illegal, we are faced with increasing pressure and limited options. One, we can do nothing, and risk possible intervention down the line; two, we can remove all links to third parties related to Shotacon or Lolicon; or three, we can remove all content, including series and releases related to these genres. I have created a poll, and I do hope that everyone will participate in making their feelings known.

It seems quite often that after reaching a certain population size, websites will typically find their paths becoming more and more intertwined with that of the prevalent social norms of the time. I know that many of you may not have second thoughts about something as controversial as our topic today, but I ask that you not forget it.

Thanks,

MU Staff

Visit our Genres page for definitions of these genres.

Identity Crisis
Post #534820
user avatar
Ever the optimist
Super Mod

5:13 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 4882


With the second option, are we talking about the group sites or links to mediafire where it is?

Manick
Post #534821 - Reply to (#534820) by Identity Crisis
user avatar
Untitled


5:16 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 2214


At this point, we hope to remove download links only, but it could apply to both in the future... It depends on our circumstances.

LinkMcCloud
Post #534822
user avatar
Legend and Hero
Member

5:19 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 80


Inevitably, the argument will be brought down to what is and isn't considered loli/shota-con.
I myself, don't read any of it myself, but removing the genres and series information, may be unnecessary, and will probably remove several miscategorized and well liked series.
You should be able to remove the third party links alone and still argue to be a database website.
Anyway, good luck to us all.

thevampirate
Post #534823
user avatar
Member

5:26 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 121


Well i find that most ecchi series have a smaller girl and i dont think those should be gone however any hentai lolicon manga should be removed because its the closest thing to child porn and i think that that could be the reason for removal of adds. if it is a choice between loosing ad revenue and loosing the child porn hentai, i would get rid of the lolicon any day of the week

VampireBanana
Post #534824
user avatar
MangaAddict.1+1=11
Member

5:26 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 844


This issue does put Baka-updates in a tight position. On one hand, if you all choose to keep the info... it'd be seen in the light of "being fair" and so forth. On the other hand, there's the problem of funding for the servers, part or much of which was previously covered by the funds derived from the ads. =/

And then again... now that I recall from various forums I was looking at, Google Adsense has never been very nice to sites which're non "family-friendly" anyways. This includes "sexually explicit" images, "sexually implied" images as well as discussions concerning topics of violence, sex, etc., etc. It doesn't matter whether that "sensitive information" is provided to minors with some warning or blocked from the search bots. As long as any of it exists on that site, well... good luck with Google Adsense.

And also, there's also the possible problem of too many false clicks originating from 1 IP or something like that.

________________
Most under-rated BL: Songs of Self-Abuse. Dark, perverse, grotesque, twisted, sick, insane, etc. Venture only if you've nerves of steel.

The woman who can't summarize.

User Posted Image
godhand666
Post #534825
user avatar
Member

5:27 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 7


MU was targeted by google because of a guy(?) posting a blog and emailing google's add people and the sponsors themselves to point out the loli/shota. I don't have the link but found it on one of the stickies on mangafox's forums. He listed mangaupdates in the blog and emails as having "content" on the site and being on the top 1000 list or something along with a lot of others. He claims he didn't want google to shut down websites and control the interweb like it is doing, but to point out what he wanted to so he would feel superior or something. Although anyone with 1/10th of a mind would know where it would/did lead.
In my opinion I say do nothing. This is an information website where one goes to get information. Going to out the way to delete the links to all the groups that have a release under one of these two genres would be sad since most of the groups don't do solely those genres but other non-shota/loli releases. At most maybe not let the release pages not have the "DL" link like how licensed releases go.

________________
User Posted Image
VampireBanana
Post #534826 - Reply to (#534824) by VampireBanana
user avatar
MangaAddict.1+1=11
Member

5:36 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 844


To further clarify on the topic of non "family-friendly" sites, this is why most activist sites and so on... don't host any ads from Google Adsense. And I think this issue may still apply to sites not based in the USA and its' territories.

And to even further cement my comments, please read this post. The Google Adsense TOS should have already mentioned the following rules:

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showpost.php?s=b5a899e55dd92c0430838ef987922535& p=103423&postcount=7

________________
Most under-rated BL: Songs of Self-Abuse. Dark, perverse, grotesque, twisted, sick, insane, etc. Venture only if you've nerves of steel.

The woman who can't summarize.

User Posted Image
dezin19
Post #534827
user avatar
Member

5:38 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 147


Quote
However, I also do not believe that anyone has any business outlawing a simple drawing on a piece of paper. I cannot comprehend what possible crime anyone is committing simply by the act of perception--by looking at a fictional representation.


I would have to agree. These are not children's lives being exploited; it's just someones drawings on paper. Loli/shota manga isn't going to turn people into pedophiles and/or sex offenders, and it certainly shouldn't be a crime to host these manga genres.

I, personally, don't read these genres; however, some people enjoy them, and I don't see any harm in that. Now, if they had a case that directly linked some loli otaku to a underage rape crime, then maybe they would have reason for concern.

________________
~Hell Hath No Fury~
vietangelix
Post #534828
user avatar
Smile
Member

5:38 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 329


I am not interesting in Lolicon or Shotacon but I think you should keep the info and just remove the links (Just to be on the safe side). Even if the content is illegal, I don't why it's so bad to just keep the info of the content.

________________
User Posted Image
Toto
Post #534829
user avatar
Site Admin

5:45 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 2276


I'd prefer that the content be kept from principle.

However, I'd like to make another suggestion. How about disabling cover pages to only loli/shota series? So, we'd still keep the majority of the information on the database but remove some of the objectionable content. Yes, the covers are supposed to be censored, but there are a lot that barely have any.

If something MUST be done, do this and see what happens. Use it as a way to test the waters.

________________
"Officially, this machine doesn't exist, you didn't get it from me,
and I don't know you. Make sure it doesn't leave the building."
VampireBanana
Post #534830 - Reply to (#534826) by VampireBanana
user avatar
MangaAddict.1+1=11
Member

5:46 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 844


And content from the term "mature content" refers to text, audio, images, blah blah blah blah... basically, anything that can be used to convey information.

________________
Most under-rated BL: Songs of Self-Abuse. Dark, perverse, grotesque, twisted, sick, insane, etc. Venture only if you've nerves of steel.

The woman who can't summarize.

User Posted Image
vietangelix
Post #534831 - Reply to (#534828) by vietangelix
user avatar
Smile
Member

5:50 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 329


But I don't really like censorships. It restricts the arts and people's ideas.
We wouldn't have gotten so far if everything gets censored because of some idiots who don't like it. -__-

________________
User Posted Image
babel
Post #534832
Member

5:56 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 63


Like yourself, I have no interest in Lolicon or shotacon productions, but as many people believe, I think there should be room for all tastes and interests in the manga (and anime) world. The introduction of the victimless crime that is coming about with these ever-increasing witch-hunts perpetrated by politicians who are masters of the knee-jerk response is already too far down the line of killing intellectual freedom on the net.
It isn't just hentai-type titles which are being targeted anymore either. When mainstream manga such as Negima begin to fall under the hammer then what is left? The people forcing this issue will never stop. If they get their way with this, then next it could be depictions of violence. I can see the eventual end of most manga productions unless this is stopped.
As far as Google is concerned, they have set themselves up as guardians of freedom recently with their stance on China, so to find them using their power to veto sites through means of pulling advertising is very disturbing indeed. The saying goes: 'with great power comes great responsibility'. Well Google has that power, but I'm seeing very little sense of responsibility...

One of the few outspoken critics of this insidious trend of censorship is the author Neil Gaiman - he's been promoting the Comic Book Legal Defense fund and has been touring and giving talks on the subject. Unfortunately, there aren't very many voices out there for freedom, but many sites like L7world (which is the site I suspect may have started all this), which are drowning them out with their inflammatory blogging methods.

These types of articles, branded 'tabloid reporting' in the printed media world and subject to guidelines and laws, are ironically allowed to be published with impunity on the web it seems- benefiting from the freedom they are so eager to bring to an end.

As far as MangaUpdates is concerned, I'm not in a position to comment on what you should do from a financial point of view: if you can't survive without advertising and can't get advertising except through Google then your options are limited. But if you start censoring your own links, then where do you draw the line? Do you just remove the hentai links? Or do you go further and start censoring titles like Negima too? If you do, then what about 12 months down the line when some Southern states politician looking for an easy vote-winner starts shouting about something else you're linking to?

It seems freedom of speech on the internet is being suffocated. I'm from one of the worst-offending Countries in this matter - the UK. We have recently had a draconian e-bill forced through parliament in a late-night session which scares the hell out of me. What can I do about it? Well, an election is coming up in a few weeks and for the first time in as long as I can remember, I'm going to vote. I'll be voting for whoever is against that bill. It may not be much, but I'm doing what I can.

mangotango
Post #534833
Member

5:57 am, Apr 25 2010
Posts: 7


I think you guys should leave everything as is. Like you said you are an information website so many people trust that the information you provide here that they are accurate, reliable and complete. For these reasons alone I say continue the norm and just live off donations.

Pages (22) [ 1 2 3 4 ... Last ] Next You must be registered to post!

Back to News  Back to Top

Search This Topic:
 
Manga Search
MANGA Fu
MEMBERS
TEAM-BU


footer