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The Lolicon Shotacon Debate

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Mehme
Post #535029
Member

8:48 pm, Apr 26 2010
Posts: 3


control freaks. Let's ban loli/shota - it's "immoral". Let's ban yaoi/yuri - it's "immoral". Let's ban gore - it's "dangerous"...Let's just ban the whole fking world -.-' (everything in this comment is sarcasm except "world-ban" and "control freak" part).

side note: The talk about baning "dangerous games", but what about movies? Some movies are far more brutal and...."realistic" then some of the video games..

za3bola
Post #535030 - Reply to (#535018) by Konbanwa002007
Member

9:39 pm, Apr 26 2010
Posts: 29


Well I like yaoi 'cause I like men, that's is why I enjoy reading it. I think what bothers me apart from looking like a child is the age, children are not sexually mature.

Z

voraciouszest
Post #535031 - Reply to (#535027) by rainexoxo
user avatar
Member

9:41 pm, Apr 26 2010
Posts: 56


I'd really like to thank you for that post, rainexoxo. You've pretty well summed it up. Though I don't particularly enjoy shotacon because of the girly ukes, I still like and respect the mangaka who create works of these kinds.
I think a lot of people are forgetting that there's a huge fanbase in Japan, and around the world, that love moe characters - cute, innocent, small and child-like. I am a short, pretty girl who doesn't look her age (23). Getting into bars is like proving my own identity and I'd easily get away with slipping back into 8th grade. Lots of guys hit on me because they like that kind of look. In no way does this reflect any kind of lifestyle choice they might make for themselves and this was the point I was trying to make by relating censorship to the more outlandish hentai themes.
There are some really sick people out there that would look at lolicon and shotacon as something I don't even want to think about. There are also some people out there who'd read hentai, or even the many violent shounen and seinen manga out there and think of that in ways that I don't even want to imagine. But the vast majority of people simply enjoy something different. I'm not blasting them into the sun for preferences that I don't share.
I admit I have a problem with graphically depicted sexual situations in which a minor is taken advantage of by an adult or guardian. I definitely can't read it. But I really can't understand how some people have so permissively accepted sexual themes and violence on a level that would make the majority of people sick.
So, where do we draw the line? As long as graphic violence and sexual torture exist on this site, so too should shotacon and lolicon. The information is there for people to make informed decisions and they have been warned.

Macrome
Post #535032 - Reply to (#534822) by LinkMcCloud
user avatar
Member

9:44 pm, Apr 26 2010
Posts: 1


I agree entirely, if it comes to pass the third party links or even genres and sieries information have to removed and there is nothing to be done about it, well... there would be nothing anyone could do about it, but until then, and it may not happen, I don't think we should give in on our own. I don't read any loli/shota mangas so I wounldn't really feel the loss, but first of all I don't think that is very fair towards those of you that do and secondly because I don't want it to be to easy and this just keeps going untill it really hurts.

za3bola
Post #535033 - Reply to (#535027) by rainexoxo
Member

9:56 pm, Apr 26 2010
Posts: 29


There are a lot of genres out there that make me cringe but each to their own. My concern is children depicted in a sexual context.

People who look like children and are cute is not shota/loli as they are sexually mature.

Doesn't this genre that specifically focus on young children glorify "children" having sex when child abuse is a prevalent problem around the world.

You are a mother so you probably understand this more than others, you probably are a strong person with a very good abiltity to distinguish between what is real and what is not. As mother you also have pretty good understanding of what is wrong and right as you need to teach your kids. But not everyone is like that.

You said yourself that you don't like all kinds of shota/loli because a lot of them are probably not appropriate at all. It is the same thing with me I sift through yaoi to find ones that are appropriate (and don't contain elements of shota). But not everyone is like that.

And don't get me wrong I do love yaoi but I am not using it as an excuse here just as an example.

Z

Xeronia
Post #535034 - Reply to (#535025) by Drahken
user avatar
Member

11:15 pm, Apr 26 2010
Posts: 1650


That's the thing. They're not actually hypocrites. They've realized that it's a problem and is trying to stop it. There was a big purge I think, and that probably included lots of illegal sites.

rainexoxo
Post #535035 - Reply to (#535033) by za3bola
user avatar
Member

11:29 pm, Apr 26 2010
Posts: 17


"People who look like children and are cute is not shota/loli as they are sexually mature." Do you even know what you are arguing anymore? Characters in adult situations who look like children and are cute are exactly what leads a manga to be classified as shota/loli. And sexual maturity is a vague concept at best since these are two-dimensional drawing we are talking about.

"Doesn't this genre that specifically focus on young children glorify "children" having sex when child abuse is a prevalent problem around the world." My response to that would be "No." Although I do strongly agree that child abuse/molestation is completely immoral (evil even), drawing or reading pictorial works of fiction with young looking characters in adult situations is not the same thing. Also, having information about these kinds of material does not lead to or promote deviant behavior. Please, understand this, if nothing else...People, in general, can read works of fiction (whether they are animalistic, incestuous, homosexual, violent or worse) and still not have the inclination to perpetrate or even support these acts in real life.

"You said yourself that you don't like all kinds of shota/loli because a lot of them are probably not appropriate at all." The Shota/Loli categories do have their extreme works, as do all genres (that quite frankly sicken me); however, I know that these works do not represent the group as a whole. Thus, I am willing to put aside my personal preferences and accept the bad with the good. As I stated above, these are two-dimensional drawings we are talking about. Any judgments made as to who looks too young and who doesn't would be solely based on personal perspective not actual evidence. I, for one, am not ready for other people, especially those who have no interest or understanding of what they are criticizing, to tell me what I can or can't read.

"As mother you also have pretty good understanding of what is wrong and right as you need to teach your kids." Yes, I do have a very strong moral compass, and I do teach my kids about right and wrong. One of the main lessons I try to impart to them is the danger of censorship, and how wrong it is for a person to use the excuse of moral justification as a means to control what information another person has access to. Knowledge is not evil.

Somniel
Post #535036 - Reply to (#534905) by Diokhan
Member

11:37 pm, Apr 26 2010
Posts: 5


MU is hosted in the US, correct? Legally, there would be no reason to remove anything, although direct download links are... awkward - grey area. And bully for the freedom of "speech" which currently allows for anyone to say/film/print anything which does not injure or untruthfully defame anyone. Yes, yes, unless you've based your loli-/shotacon images on actual people who may be materially damaged by such images you are not actually doing any harm. If some form of expression is not to one's taste, one need only ignore it - change the channel, read a different book, crawl to a different thread on the web. The freedom to express is countered by the freedom to ignore. If you don't want children to be exposed to certain things, make sure they are well supervised. [As for the cover images, though tedious, you could simply get permission to host them, and leave blank anything without explicit permission in order to avoid any other potential legal issues (copyright, etc.).]
The real problem is funding, yes? Obviously a site as large as MU is expensive to maintain, and currently you are funded via advertising. If there is no advertiser willing to work with you under current conditions, you have three options: 1) compromise - find someone who is willing to work with you at all, and remove the material they find objectionable; 2) get user funding - encourage the site-goers who wish to maintain the information unexpurgated to keep the site going; 3) close down, as no change whatsoever is not going to answer the financial dilemma.
Personally, I think option 3 is no good, so come pay day, I'm making my own meager contribution to option 2. For the rest, user-funding is generally unpredictable while bills and taxes are fairly constant, so option 2 is risky, but not without rewards. It can work. Some high-traffic communities operate on (or mostly on) donations, generally with a little counter somewhere on the page to let users know how close the site is to its monthly financial goal. On the other hand, ads are likely much easier to employ, and certainly much more predictable funding.

If you feel this is a political assault on MU, determine exactly what your political convictions are, and stick to them. If you think this is just a financial issue, then you're going to have to find the funds somewhere. Probably, it will be both, and you'll have to do what everyone does - the best they can to get by. I hope you'll be able to maintain at least the current level of information, making it much easier to determine which titles are likely to suit our various personal tastes without having to trawl through every title, gold or garbage, in order to find what we want (frankly, I'd like to avoid any sports comic based around cricket or foosball).

KennEH!
Post #535037
user avatar
Member

12:45 am, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 2324


Why not try what Danbooru did, only allow that kind of stuff to members. They say it's so advertisers don't stop support, but I think it could have a lot of other benefits.

derpMonster
Post #535038 - Reply to (#535035) by rainexoxo
Member

12:52 am, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 43


i stopped arguing with her as guess what - she reflects the majority of the populations views with regards to this whole lolshote debate. anyone who looks young - BAAAAAD. Old Oyaji types - GOOOOOD.

that person might as well read bara - OH WAIT - that could be a really muscular 16 year old you are beating off too you pervert!!

seriously. first it starts with these genres. then it will be yaoi/yuri. then anything ecchi.

if only governments put in the same zeal into protecting real children but as we all know, pixel children have more rights than real ones.

za3bola
Post #535039 - Reply to (#535035) by rainexoxo
Member

12:58 am, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 29


Okay I am going to just add 1 more comment and leave it as is because it is getting a little out of hand.

People who are posting here are way too use to shota/loli and therefore can't really see the potential implications behind it.

I get it that people who like reading shot/loli like it because they enjoy the love connection between two kids, it's sweet, pure and genuine. But does it have to be sexual? Don't you think you guys are mixing too many emotions in a dangerous way? I like puppies and I like sex but it doesn't mean that I want to see puppies having sex, in fact seeing that would probably mess me up.

I think when it comes to material about and for little children we really do need to tread carefully.
I have never read shota/loli nor will I ever allow myself to, because I don't think kids should ever be perceived in a sexual way.

This is my non-expert opinion and I am quite happy to just leave it to the experts to make the decision for us.

Z

xtr3m3dude
Post #535040 - Reply to (#535035) by rainexoxo
user avatar
KYOKUGEN !!!
 Member

1:14 am, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 878


The only people who are unable to tell the difference between fiction and reality are ones with mental disorders. The majority of people are not mentally ill and can make conscious decisions about the actions they take.

Your own private thoughts should never, ever, under no circumstance be a crime, regardless of how wrong your thoughts may be be perceived to be by society. Societies should and do have laws which try to regulate criminal behavior as best as they can, and anyone who breaks those laws will suffer the punishment.

But you cannot punish people who have not done a crime, just because they thought up a scenario... Messing with people's heads and regulating their thoughts is going way too far. Read George Orwell's 1984 or some of the many other dystopian novels out there.

People have argued before that being homosexual is unnatural because it goes against nature (homosexuals can't have kids after all). But being born with a hormonal imbalance or certain genes is not the individual's fault - it happens "naturally". What's to say that lolicons aren't victims of their own biology? And while it is obvious that they should never have sexual relations with minors (who aren't mature enough to be allowed to give consent) thinking about isn't the same as committing a crime.

What matters is that no real human is hurt in manga. Actually 2D manga shouldn't be compared to real pictures because the art style doesn't even resemble 3D... The art style itself isn't even realism! It would be very difficult to properly censor sexual content in most manga works. Should the 25 year old who looks like a shota/loli be censored? Or should the 16 year old minor who looks mature be censored?

I don't really care much for shotas/lolis (ones that to me look like 13 and under with clearly underdeveloped bodies) in explicit works, but I tend to enjoy a lot of works that have sexuality in a high school setting (and I don't even mean just hentai, there are so many ecchi mangas that have this...). But once they start to ban the extremes, very soon the moderate will follow and there go all the harem, ecchi, love-comedy manga! Most of them are shonen and deal with high schoolers and the few seinen I can think of have characters that look young even if they are technically in uni...

Hell I had my first sexual experience in high school when I was 16 (close to 17, but still technically 16) with a partner my age. Does that make me a deviant sex offender? That would make a significant % of teens criminals... Maybe I really am a deviant with deviant friends but I started masturbating at 12 and many of my friends used to claim they masturbated before I ever did... I guess I'll see some of you guys in hell...

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rainexoxo
Post #535041 - Reply to (#535040) by xtr3m3dude
user avatar
Member

1:25 am, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 17


"But once they start to ban the extremes, very soon the moderate will follow..." I think this is a very good point. Once the extremes are gone, won't it stand to reason that the moderates would move up to fill that void and thus become the new extremes. When would it stop?

xtr3m3dude
Post #535042 - Reply to (#535037) by KennEH!
user avatar
KYOKUGEN !!!
 Member

1:28 am, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 878


I'm not sure it really matters if the given material is hard to access.
As long as it's possible to access it the sponsors probably won't come back.

Still I am all for that option. We already have user control panel where we can filter out releases, so why not just make shota/loli, and maybe even yaoi/yuri and hentai releases hidden by default? Explicit content will at least be hidden from moralfags who don't intentionally pry deep. Anyone else can just tweak their user cp to their liking.

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derpMonster
Post #535043 - Reply to (#535041) by rainexoxo
Member

1:37 am, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 43


and that my friends is what a slippery slope this is.

actually under the loliban in japan, end of evangelion will come under the chopping block - http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/04/27/tokyo-loli-b an-will-include-evangelion/

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