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The Lolicon Shotacon Debate

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SvenV
Post #535060 - Reply to (#535059) by SvenV
Member

4:34 pm, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 4


Oops, my apologies, I see that it's already possible while logged in. The filter options won't save for me in Firefox (worked in IE), but that's a separate issue.

AutumnKitsune
Post #535061 - Reply to (#534856) by mattai
user avatar
Teadrinker
Member

5:37 pm, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 7


This, this A MILLION TIMES THIS.

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AutumnKitsune
Post #535062 - Reply to (#534986) by Anyien
user avatar
Teadrinker
Member

6:52 pm, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 7


Thank you. I was thinking that to my knowledge it wasn't illegal and wondering what everyone else was talking about...

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krytorii
Post #535063 - Reply to (#534832) by babel
Member

9:09 pm, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 32


Could you provide a link or name for this bill? I live in the UK and have heard of this, but dont know the details. If you want a party that opposes this vote PPUK. They haev no chance of getting into power, but they need the publicity (they already have a swedish seat in the UN).

Im not old enough to vote, and any letter/email I send to an MP probably wont even be read if I state my age (agism is still a big factor in getting your voice heard).

Damn convoluted politcs system.

krytorii
Post #535064 - Reply to (#534903) by drunkguy
Member

9:14 pm, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 32


You dont need to be able to log in to do this, you could probably just have a button/tick bocx next to it which says "include..."
Users could log in and safe prefs permanently, so they can bypass this.
Im no website designer so I dont know how hard this would be, but I assume the majority of this could be done by adding the advance search filters onto the standard search. The button would disable these filters.

krytorii
Post #535065 - Reply to (#534881) by piyochama
Member

9:32 pm, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 32


I dont know about the US laws, but in the UK retailers are allowed to withohold sales for whatever reason they like, provided it isnt racist/sexist etc... I assume this also extends to internet service porviders, like google. If this is the case then google can do what they like.

To be honest we cant blame google. They have more important things to do than effectively pay someone to check out this whole debate. They saw what they saw and made a decision based on it.

For example, if you were a 3rd world farmer, you are allowed to decide to sell to fair trade over Wall-mart. Both on for economic and moral reasons

vietangelix
Post #535066 - Reply to (#535058) by tom_moreau
user avatar
Smile
Member

10:25 pm, Apr 27 2010
Posts: 329


Yeah!

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se7a
Post #535067
Member

8:41 am, Apr 28 2010
Posts: 23


CP is completely normal and depicting it to satisfy sexual urges of wanna be pedophiles is completely ok.. lol
fucking americans and their need for freedom above everything. Just let pedophiles go somewhere else to search for their kid porn fiction
If the manga just has lolis or shota but that's not the main point of it and they aren't depicted mainly in a sexual tone, who cares?

xtr3m3dude
Post #535068 - Reply to (#535067) by se7a
user avatar
KYOKUGEN !!!
 Member

1:00 pm, Apr 28 2010
Posts: 877


Look, the main problem people have with this ban is that every under 18 depiction would be banned eventually, which practically bans one 1/2 of all manga. Age of consent tends to be 18 years of age, which makes 16-17 depictions out to be as bad as the very young depictions. That's just not right, since most older teens (if not all) explore their sexuality (not necessarily sex, but almost everyone masturbates) because it is only natural to do it at that age.
Point being:
1. Ban is way too broad.
2. Older teens have sex in the real world.
3. Manga doesn't even feature real depictions in the first place, because the art style isn't realism.
4. How can you expect manga fans to be okay with banning ecchi manga featuring fictional high-school characters when such a ban doesn't even work for real life high-schools. (Even if you didn't date in high-school I am sure you have at least seen people who have...)

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demon_god03
Post #535069 - Reply to (#535039) by za3bola
user avatar
Member

1:25 pm, Apr 28 2010
Posts: 29


Quote
This is my non-expert opinion and I am quite happy to just leave it to the experts to make the decision for us.


It really is this kind of mentality that allows censorship to work. What really constitutes as an expert really? The porverbial 5 men in a dark room? The guy that originally wrote the article on the internet that sparked this mess? In many of the cases of the manga that are being removed like Dance in the Vampire Bund, the theme of the manga is not sex with children, but rather there is some nudity and/or ecchi moments in the manga. In the case of Vampire Bund,
Spoiler (highlight to view)
my understanding is that the loli vampire is that way in order to AVOID having sex with one of the three greesy old men that killed her mother.
Really, I'd much rather excersise my own judgement then rely on the opinions of porported "experts" that very likely know nothing of the series in question but rather hone in on and exagerate certain elements to make their point. If you were really concerned with the physical and mental well-being of children I believe that teaching them to make well thought out and informed judgement and to excerise their mind would be more beneficial then focusing on pixal children.

________________
A battle has been fought, and is now over.
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demon_god03
Post #535070 - Reply to (#535067) by se7a
user avatar
Member

1:47 pm, Apr 28 2010
Posts: 29


As xtr3m3dude said, the ban is too broad. "Loli" to people may mean different things, for example to me, loli is pre teen but as I can see here it seems that anything under 18 can be considered "loli". One of the issues I have with this is the fact that some series like vampire bund is made to be some kind of child pornography when it isn't. They just focus on the aspect of a manga that allows them to make their point and ignore the rest. Honestly, if only people were so zealous in censoring the Catholic Church when their priests molests children and are let off the hook and the incidents buried.

________________
A battle has been fought, and is now over.
Place your sword upon the ground, and rest in the temporal peace. After dozing in the warmth of a dream, a new day will begin.
celinae
Post #535071 - Reply to (#535036) by Somniel
user avatar
Member

3:16 pm, Apr 28 2010
Posts: 13


Problem with loli-shota is that there was a law passed a couple of years ago that actually does make it illegal for "virtual" child pornography in the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_Act_of_2003 So saying that it's just a matter of the models' consent isn't true, because maybe even putting cover images that give a teaser of the "action" in the manga might get MU smacked down in even more serious manners than losing revenue from advertising. I think I remember one guy from Texas or Arizona who got arrested because of that law for ordering manga from Japan with some pretty explicit stuff, mainly because some of the characters looked like minors. The man was judged guilty the first time and I think he was trying to appeal it, but I don't remember what the outcome was.

While I do believe that there is a lot of really, really messed up loli-shota out there, and to some extent I can't quite understand the appeal... I feel like attempting to cut it down is bad because you're essentially repressing a form of art. Not to mention that it's so liable to abuse, i.e. mangafox getting rid of Kaichou wa Maid-sama due to pressure from advertisers. If you say loli and shota is not allowed because it contains minors having sex, what is to stop you from banning, say, shoujo where the couples have sex and are obviously in high school? Not to mention that while a situation like lolicon or shotacon actually shouldn't happen in real life, and rarely (thankfully?) does, a good percentage of kids in high school not only have sex but are interested in having it. Forcing artists to not depict that aspect of reality is repressing freedom of expression...
~_~

So yeah, the law is really messed up. Hopefully, hopefully, the bits about virtual representation might get repealed, but until then MU should try to stick to the safe side of the fence and be careful about download links and cover images... Hopefully the situation won't get worse! ;_;

aurickandrien
Post #535072
user avatar
Member

3:56 pm, Apr 28 2010
Posts: 11


It's probably more work, but maybe you could make any 'questionable content' hidden so that people can't access it unless they are logged and have selected the option to be able to access it. Kind of like Pixiv has the option to not be able to view R18+ content unless you want to.

Of course that wouldn't actually solve the problem of the content being on the site... but maybe I'm just lazy and want a shortcut for excluding those genres from my Genre searches all the time. bigrazz

Stoner
Post #535073 - Reply to (#535069) by demon_god03
Member

7:51 pm, Apr 28 2010
Posts: 18


dont you think the way she looks contradict the fact that she changes to a child to not have sex with old men? I mean, why dress her in clothing that is arousing? Doesnt that contradict the "message" it tries to pass? And from what im reading, your "understanding" could be completely wrong too.

From the point of view of someone who once read rape mangas, i have NO problem with rape/shota/loli being removed from here (goodbye my shotas sad ).

AND last thing, why do you not want to change a situation based on the fact they "would" go further? That's up to you to draw the line on what you want. likeze3 or something said, case by case. Yes case by case. Just like when we should use a rule instead of case by case, case by case. In which cases can you make a clear rule and when cant you. But either way, im being utopic/ian. In a perfect world, there would be no rape and no child porn smile. But just because it wont happen doesnt mean i cant be angry about it.

Being convoluted and messy is what i do best by the way.

Stoner
Post #535074 - Reply to (#535068) by xtr3m3dude
Member

8:00 pm, Apr 28 2010
Posts: 18


how can you say that? It is targeted at the depiction of children having sex. Stop mixing things.
second, i disagree with ecchi. If im looking for scantily clad women, im going to read hentai. Oh, and i don't read manga to watch scantily clad women. I read manga for the story. And about rape, if it is within the context of the story and brings more dept to the plot, i dont mind. The problem is, its often NOT the case.

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