Actually most scanlator don't like online reader like mangafox because they make money from scanlator work not because peoples visit mangareader site and nit their own.
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Member
1:41 am, Jul 31 2011
Posts: 159
Member
1:55 am, Jul 31 2011
Posts: 159
I know what you mean by that but is it really that bad ?
I have done some scanlation in the past in french not english though and i saw them on online reader and in exchange online reader made my group more known,
I don't know how you feel exactly by when i was scanlating i was more happy to have a few 100 peoples reading what i was scanlating then only having a few who would have known about my group without online reader.
LIke you said i didn't like online reader either making money from my work but at the same time i think i would have hated it even more to lose hours on scanlating only to have 10-20 peoples reading.
I mean in the end scanlators make scan for the community( well maybe except a few exceptions) so isn't it good to have more peoples reading.
I have done some scanlation in the past in french not english though and i saw them on online reader and in exchange online reader made my group more known,
I don't know how you feel exactly by when i was scanlating i was more happy to have a few 100 peoples reading what i was scanlating then only having a few who would have known about my group without online reader.
LIke you said i didn't like online reader either making money from my work but at the same time i think i would have hated it even more to lose hours on scanlating only to have 10-20 peoples reading.
I mean in the end scanlators make scan for the community( well maybe except a few exceptions) so isn't it good to have more peoples reading.
Member
5:38 am, Jul 31 2011
Posts: 317
5:38 am, Jul 31 2011
Posts: 317
First, I'd like to point out that Batoto, unlike the other manga aggregators, is affiliated with scanlators. If scanlators do not profit through other aggregators, they do through Batoto.
Though I'd like to pose a question: what about Manga Traders? It doesn't have an online reader, but it is still counted as an aggregator.
I think it is safe to say that everyone starts/has started manga through aggregators. I started with Manga Volume then moved to OneManga. I was one of those devastated when OneManga was shut down. However, I pretty much stopped using aggregators when I discovered how to maximize the use of this site. I rarely read my manga online because I find it too slow for my preferences (even Mangastream, for some weird reason), and getting my manga straight from scanlators is just darned faster than waiting for third-parties to update. Not to mention that what is available on aggregators pales in comparison to the wealth of knowledge (which includes untranslated manga) found in Manga-Updates. The only time I read online through aggregators is when I'm after older oneshots or (as in the case of Manga Traders) completed series from defunct scanlation groups.
As for the options:
Help popularize manga: True, but as I mentioned you can only go so far with aggregators.
Make it easy to read manga: This is very subjective. Getting your manga straight from the scanlators only requires a few extra clicks, so I don't see how that can be not easy. IRC? Just takes 5-10 minutes to learn (provided you do try to learn it; there are guides available online, learn to Google). And in my experience, I prefer having to wait only once and reading my manga uninterrupted as compared to waiting for every page to load.
Not worth lower quality: I don't really care as long as it's clear and readable. But the MangaFox watermark is another story. And yes, I do archive what I read (unless I think it's not worth the diskspace).
Threaten scanlations: By making scanlators stop? I don't see how hard it is to respect the wishes of scanlators. For those who think that scanlators are being butthurt... IT'S A FREE SERVICE. Scanlators invest their time and money to bring us manga FOR FREE. If you're whining now because of some trivialities that scanlators are entitled to demand (you aren't paying for their services after all), let's see you whine when they stop scanlating, period. And besides, if you can't stand the 24-hour wait why not just go get your manga straight from the scanlator's sites?
Will cause problems with publishers: Aggregators do paint larger targets on scanlation groups... But I have personally yet to see a group get offed. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. But hey, fans are resilient, haha.
Yup, my two cents.
Though I'd like to pose a question: what about Manga Traders? It doesn't have an online reader, but it is still counted as an aggregator.
I think it is safe to say that everyone starts/has started manga through aggregators. I started with Manga Volume then moved to OneManga. I was one of those devastated when OneManga was shut down. However, I pretty much stopped using aggregators when I discovered how to maximize the use of this site. I rarely read my manga online because I find it too slow for my preferences (even Mangastream, for some weird reason), and getting my manga straight from scanlators is just darned faster than waiting for third-parties to update. Not to mention that what is available on aggregators pales in comparison to the wealth of knowledge (which includes untranslated manga) found in Manga-Updates. The only time I read online through aggregators is when I'm after older oneshots or (as in the case of Manga Traders) completed series from defunct scanlation groups.
As for the options:
Help popularize manga: True, but as I mentioned you can only go so far with aggregators.
Make it easy to read manga: This is very subjective. Getting your manga straight from the scanlators only requires a few extra clicks, so I don't see how that can be not easy. IRC? Just takes 5-10 minutes to learn (provided you do try to learn it; there are guides available online, learn to Google). And in my experience, I prefer having to wait only once and reading my manga uninterrupted as compared to waiting for every page to load.
Not worth lower quality: I don't really care as long as it's clear and readable. But the MangaFox watermark is another story. And yes, I do archive what I read (unless I think it's not worth the diskspace).
Threaten scanlations: By making scanlators stop? I don't see how hard it is to respect the wishes of scanlators. For those who think that scanlators are being butthurt... IT'S A FREE SERVICE. Scanlators invest their time and money to bring us manga FOR FREE. If you're whining now because of some trivialities that scanlators are entitled to demand (you aren't paying for their services after all), let's see you whine when they stop scanlating, period. And besides, if you can't stand the 24-hour wait why not just go get your manga straight from the scanlator's sites?
Will cause problems with publishers: Aggregators do paint larger targets on scanlation groups... But I have personally yet to see a group get offed. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. But hey, fans are resilient, haha.
Yup, my two cents.
Member
1:34 pm, Jul 31 2011
Posts: 28
1:34 pm, Jul 31 2011
Posts: 28
in a well-cleaned scanlation, the pictures are frequently larger and clearer than in a manga volume from the store...
Member
1:50 pm, Jul 31 2011
Posts: 216
Totally agree with everything you said.
I miss the days when it was a more close community and people actually tried to search for manga. Honestly, with all the info on Manga-Updates, you get a wider selection of what you can read (as their search engine is amazing).
I also, don't see how people say it's faster, waiting for each page to load drives me crazy and in the end you are still downloading the image on to your computer as you load each image. Maybe it's just me, but I also like to read on my side on my bed, so I need to be able to flip the manga 90 degrees.
I miss the days when it was a more close community and people actually tried to search for manga. Honestly, with all the info on Manga-Updates, you get a wider selection of what you can read (as their search engine is amazing).
I also, don't see how people say it's faster, waiting for each page to load drives me crazy and in the end you are still downloading the image on to your computer as you load each image. Maybe it's just me, but I also like to read on my side on my bed, so I need to be able to flip the manga 90 degrees.
Member
2:45 pm, Jul 31 2011
Posts: 3
2:45 pm, Jul 31 2011
Posts: 3
I don't think everyone came to the scan world by online reader. Me, I was just curious about the mangaupdates link on baka-updates (anime), and found the website just awesome, so I played with it and stick around, then when I was getting tired of Naruto filler, I started reading the manga to see if the story was worth continuing and I came to love reading manga.
I don't really know how those websites affect scanlators morale, but I've seen what streaming sites did in the j-drama fansub community, it's no longer what it was years ago. I hope that never happens with the scanlation community.
Confusing poll, but if I have to chose I would say they threaten scanlation, because by making everything easier and somewhat faster to access it can get popular pretty quick, and I don't think it's a good thing to make popular something illegal... well on one side it might make changes in the industry, but on the other it might just paint a big red target on Mangaupdates which is to me the n°1 manga/scanlation information website in the world (and I would be lost without it).
On a more technical point of vue, the scans don't fill my TV with OR and it's more of a pain to read, so if I can I prefer to avoid them like the plague.
Honestly, I kinda miss the times when I clicked the IRC link first instead of the website/forum link
I don't really know how those websites affect scanlators morale, but I've seen what streaming sites did in the j-drama fansub community, it's no longer what it was years ago. I hope that never happens with the scanlation community.
Confusing poll, but if I have to chose I would say they threaten scanlation, because by making everything easier and somewhat faster to access it can get popular pretty quick, and I don't think it's a good thing to make popular something illegal... well on one side it might make changes in the industry, but on the other it might just paint a big red target on Mangaupdates which is to me the n°1 manga/scanlation information website in the world (and I would be lost without it).
On a more technical point of vue, the scans don't fill my TV with OR and it's more of a pain to read, so if I can I prefer to avoid them like the plague.
Honestly, I kinda miss the times when I clicked the IRC link first instead of the website/forum link
Member1:13 am, Aug 1 2011
Posts: 40
I personally think all free online readers help greatly in popularizing manga; heck the manga community would never have been what it is today without the help of scanlators. Though it does popularize manga; publishers aren't able to get enough revenue from sales because not enough people can dish out the average of $13 a book all the time. I think it wouldn't hurt to lower the quality of published books to lower the cost and make it more accessible to people with lower incomes.
I mean, I would have loved to buy all the One Piece volumes... but it's a real turn off with the huge number of volumes it's at.
I mean, I would have loved to buy all the One Piece volumes... but it's a real turn off with the huge number of volumes it's at.
Member
7:01 am, Aug 1 2011
Posts: 63
7:01 am, Aug 1 2011
Posts: 63
For some interesting recent information about Mangafox's practices, you might want to read these:
http://foolrulez.org/blog/2011/03/mangafox-takedown/# comment-54789
http://www.kimnsarah.co.uk/news/kimi-gets-banned-by-m angafox/
(there are a couple of other interesting articles on the second link too)
For those questioning whether publishers are taking notice of these aggregator sites, well MF has been issued with a number of C&Ds and takedown requests, but seem to be playing games (taking down and then re-upping content) both with Scanlators and publishers alike.
http://foolrulez.org/blog/2011/03/mangafox-takedown/# comment-54789
http://www.kimnsarah.co.uk/news/kimi-gets-banned-by-m angafox/
(there are a couple of other interesting articles on the second link too)
For those questioning whether publishers are taking notice of these aggregator sites, well MF has been issued with a number of C&Ds and takedown requests, but seem to be playing games (taking down and then re-upping content) both with Scanlators and publishers alike.
Web Developer
Member
9:58 am, Aug 1 2011
Posts: 43
No scanlator likes them, but they've been a necessity.
Why? Because up to 8 months ago scanlators didn't have readers, therefore they left a real "market" in the open.
Here's a breakdown of the users that read manga at FoOlRulez:
3% downloads via IRC (always the same 100 people - most of which are aggregator owners)
10% downloads via DDL
87% uses the manga reader
There's no other site offering downloads consistently, so, considering also all the readers that go to aggregators, over 95% of the people reads manga from manga readers.
I still see groups that say that downloading is the most loved and best, but it's just plain untrue, and for how much they think their Preview software is cool, a very tiny little fraction of readers uses software to read manga properly.
Giving downloads to users is telling them to use their FAX preview software to read manga.
I rather give them a proper manga reader that works in a browser, with a custom experience for the user.
________________
Member of FoOlRulez and head coder of the FoOlSlide project.
Why? Because up to 8 months ago scanlators didn't have readers, therefore they left a real "market" in the open.
Here's a breakdown of the users that read manga at FoOlRulez:
3% downloads via IRC (always the same 100 people - most of which are aggregator owners)
10% downloads via DDL
87% uses the manga reader
There's no other site offering downloads consistently, so, considering also all the readers that go to aggregators, over 95% of the people reads manga from manga readers.
I still see groups that say that downloading is the most loved and best, but it's just plain untrue, and for how much they think their Preview software is cool, a very tiny little fraction of readers uses software to read manga properly.
Giving downloads to users is telling them to use their FAX preview software to read manga.
I rather give them a proper manga reader that works in a browser, with a custom experience for the user.
________________
Member of FoOlRulez and head coder of the FoOlSlide project.
Member
11:22 am, Aug 1 2011
Posts: 111
The ease of using online readers does make it so more people will read a given series, but oftentimes the attention isn't necessarily wanted by the person who created the scanlation. With the increased prominence of scanlation comes increased scrutiny from publishers and the law. This isn't a huge problem just yet, except for the reader sites themselves, but I can definitely see it becoming one.
However, perhaps the worst thing about many online readers is just how "for profit" they are. They generally treat the image files with little to no respect (image sizes are reduced and saved in low quality, creating artifacts and marring the artwork), don't bother updating with new versions or keeping the chapters they have available consistent (chapters from many different scanlators) and, in MangaFox's case, even go into outright bootlegging.
Another related thing some online readers do: watermarks. Why? I realize people don't want others making money off of them, but the reason a company would do this is for legal reasons in identifying who took their work. Scanlations, being illegal to begin with, have no ability to pursue legal action against people who stole their stolen work.
As a concept, I'm not totally against the idea of online readers. They do make it easier for people to read things. But perhaps online readers should be left to the publishers. I just see too much potential for unscrupulous individuals or organizations to exploit scanlations for money, and for unwanted attention from publishers.
However, perhaps the worst thing about many online readers is just how "for profit" they are. They generally treat the image files with little to no respect (image sizes are reduced and saved in low quality, creating artifacts and marring the artwork), don't bother updating with new versions or keeping the chapters they have available consistent (chapters from many different scanlators) and, in MangaFox's case, even go into outright bootlegging.
Another related thing some online readers do: watermarks. Why? I realize people don't want others making money off of them, but the reason a company would do this is for legal reasons in identifying who took their work. Scanlations, being illegal to begin with, have no ability to pursue legal action against people who stole their stolen work.
As a concept, I'm not totally against the idea of online readers. They do make it easier for people to read things. But perhaps online readers should be left to the publishers. I just see too much potential for unscrupulous individuals or organizations to exploit scanlations for money, and for unwanted attention from publishers.
Member
3:18 pm, Aug 1 2011
Posts: 216
All your data sounds pretty unfounded, unless you state how all this data was collected and if proper research was done. For example, if it was not a voluntary poll. To say that 95% of readers read from reader is a stretch.
Also, there are sites that offer downloads consistently, follow the rules of the scanlators, AND don't make a profit.
You say that groups are trying to make readers download their "preview software", however, I have never seen a scanlator group make people download manga to use their software. Why? because they don't have one (usually anyway). All they do is just scanlate and ask that you follow their distribution rules.
Also, there are sites that offer downloads consistently, follow the rules of the scanlators, AND don't make a profit.
You say that groups are trying to make readers download their "preview software", however, I have never seen a scanlator group make people download manga to use their software. Why? because they don't have one (usually anyway). All they do is just scanlate and ask that you follow their distribution rules.
Web Developer
Member
5:46 pm, Aug 1 2011
Posts: 43
Starting from the bottom:
I didn't say they are going to make people download their own software. My scanlation group is the only that is actively also an open-source software team, so for sure I wouldn't hope that.
I'm saying that people who are forced to download, will most likely use Windows' Preview, or Mac's preview. That's basically the fax software. That's worse than any "decent" online reading.
About my research:
My team is the one that codes the scanlation manga readers, DDL systems and rare bots (FoOlReader, FoOlSlide, Tanline). We know our software quite well, so putting up statistics is quite simple, and obviously in our interest.
This is tracking data from our scanlation server. It's not voluntary, there's no poll involved, and there's no restrictions. DDL, IRC and Read Online are reachable all in 2 clicks, and bots can't get to them, so it's all human data.
At this point, it's easy to take IRC download numbers, DDL numbers, Read Online tracking, and use proportions, that are most likely clean.
We can get as simple as Sora no Otoshimono 52, our most popular manga: 157*IRC, 334*DDL, 4491*ReadOnline. Pessimist estimation is that there's 10 time more readers around, and optimist that 2 parts of them download elsewhere. This makes "Read Online" simply overwhelming.
________________
Member of FoOlRulez and head coder of the FoOlSlide project.
I didn't say they are going to make people download their own software. My scanlation group is the only that is actively also an open-source software team, so for sure I wouldn't hope that.
I'm saying that people who are forced to download, will most likely use Windows' Preview, or Mac's preview. That's basically the fax software. That's worse than any "decent" online reading.
About my research:
My team is the one that codes the scanlation manga readers, DDL systems and rare bots (FoOlReader, FoOlSlide, Tanline). We know our software quite well, so putting up statistics is quite simple, and obviously in our interest.
This is tracking data from our scanlation server. It's not voluntary, there's no poll involved, and there's no restrictions. DDL, IRC and Read Online are reachable all in 2 clicks, and bots can't get to them, so it's all human data.
At this point, it's easy to take IRC download numbers, DDL numbers, Read Online tracking, and use proportions, that are most likely clean.
We can get as simple as Sora no Otoshimono 52, our most popular manga: 157*IRC, 334*DDL, 4491*ReadOnline. Pessimist estimation is that there's 10 time more readers around, and optimist that 2 parts of them download elsewhere. This makes "Read Online" simply overwhelming.
________________
Member of FoOlRulez and head coder of the FoOlSlide project.
Member
3:22 am, Aug 2 2011
Posts: 19
3:22 am, Aug 2 2011
Posts: 19
woxxy, you are wrong: from the numbers you listed, it seem that 90% of people read from manga reader, 7% use direct download, so only 3% use IRC
Also, can you explain me why scanlators are against the watermarks that mangafox put on the images? From definition of watermark (you can search on google), watermark is a "design impressed on the surface", while mangafox simply add at the bottom of the images its "watermark".
I agree that they compress and resize them, but using "watermark" isn't an abuse of term?
Also, can you explain me why scanlators are against the watermarks that mangafox put on the images? From definition of watermark (you can search on google), watermark is a "design impressed on the surface", while mangafox simply add at the bottom of the images its "watermark".
I agree that they compress and resize them, but using "watermark" isn't an abuse of term?
Member
9:59 am, Aug 2 2011
Posts: 1
9:59 am, Aug 2 2011
Posts: 1
mangakas work with all year round with very few vacation days so that they can churn out their works and feed themselves.
scanlators take their works, translates them, then releases them to the public for viewing. there's no problem in this if the manga their working on is not licensed and the mangaka doesnt have the means of releasing international versions of his/her manga, and it actually helps in a way to popularize the manga. BUT there are definitely a couple of scanlation groups trying to make money off these works with putting tons of ads in their sites and readers, and using file hosts with monetary rewards for every download of the scanlated manga.
It sucks for the mangaka who worked day in and day out for the entire week to release the manga and for someone to take a couple of hours to translate his/her work and make money off of it. I'm bothered by this because scanlators used to do this solely because they LOVE the manga and they wanted others to enjoy it as well, nowadays you see scanlators do it for the money. It would've been okay if they gave the revenue (or at least part of it) to the mangaka himself/herself but sadly it's not that way at all.
now comes online readers which takes scanlations and boxes it in with ads in all sides as you read them and makes money off of the scanlators works. lots of scanlators are pissed off at online readers not just because they make money off of their releases but some readers even removes the credit pages when they put up the manga. this double sucks for the mangaka because now their getting taken advantage of in 2 levels.
How would you feel if for example you were selling some french fries that people in your neighborhood loves to eat you hand pick the best potatoes, peel them, slice them fry them, salt them, making sure each piece is delicious before you sell them, then some guy just takes your fries without permission and puts some powdered cheese flavoring to it and sells it on the other side of town that loves that cheese flavor. then another guy takes those then packs them in an attractive packaging and then proceeds in selling them still without permission. It sucks for the 1st person but he just lets it happen because he doesn't have a stall set up in the other part of town, yet.
one can argue that this system we have popularizes manga but mangakas releasing them and selling them popularizes their manga as well AND it makes money for them. online readers are leeches of the community, sure it popularizes the manga, BUT it only makes money for the readers the mangaka doesn't see a cent of that revenue at all!
mangakas work their asses off to give fans manga and to earn what little money they can.
SOME scanlators take advantage and makes money off the mangaka's works.
online readers then take advantage and makes money off of scanlators and SOME even removes the credits of the scanlators.
fyi reading lq manga on a browser, waiting for each page to load even if it's just a couple of seconds sucks. people should get a real manga reader, it's 10x better. also manga on paper, even better.
tl;dr
online readers good for fans, not so good for the ones making the manga. also, BUY manga, it gives artists the money they deserve.
scanlators take their works, translates them, then releases them to the public for viewing. there's no problem in this if the manga their working on is not licensed and the mangaka doesnt have the means of releasing international versions of his/her manga, and it actually helps in a way to popularize the manga. BUT there are definitely a couple of scanlation groups trying to make money off these works with putting tons of ads in their sites and readers, and using file hosts with monetary rewards for every download of the scanlated manga.
It sucks for the mangaka who worked day in and day out for the entire week to release the manga and for someone to take a couple of hours to translate his/her work and make money off of it. I'm bothered by this because scanlators used to do this solely because they LOVE the manga and they wanted others to enjoy it as well, nowadays you see scanlators do it for the money. It would've been okay if they gave the revenue (or at least part of it) to the mangaka himself/herself but sadly it's not that way at all.
now comes online readers which takes scanlations and boxes it in with ads in all sides as you read them and makes money off of the scanlators works. lots of scanlators are pissed off at online readers not just because they make money off of their releases but some readers even removes the credit pages when they put up the manga. this double sucks for the mangaka because now their getting taken advantage of in 2 levels.
How would you feel if for example you were selling some french fries that people in your neighborhood loves to eat you hand pick the best potatoes, peel them, slice them fry them, salt them, making sure each piece is delicious before you sell them, then some guy just takes your fries without permission and puts some powdered cheese flavoring to it and sells it on the other side of town that loves that cheese flavor. then another guy takes those then packs them in an attractive packaging and then proceeds in selling them still without permission. It sucks for the 1st person but he just lets it happen because he doesn't have a stall set up in the other part of town, yet.
one can argue that this system we have popularizes manga but mangakas releasing them and selling them popularizes their manga as well AND it makes money for them. online readers are leeches of the community, sure it popularizes the manga, BUT it only makes money for the readers the mangaka doesn't see a cent of that revenue at all!
mangakas work their asses off to give fans manga and to earn what little money they can.
SOME scanlators take advantage and makes money off the mangaka's works.
online readers then take advantage and makes money off of scanlators and SOME even removes the credits of the scanlators.
fyi reading lq manga on a browser, waiting for each page to load even if it's just a couple of seconds sucks. people should get a real manga reader, it's 10x better. also manga on paper, even better.
tl;dr
online readers good for fans, not so good for the ones making the manga. also, BUY manga, it gives artists the money they deserve.
rawr
Member
10:16 am, Aug 2 2011
Posts: 161
I can also confirm on woxxy's numbers. But, probably because we are a newer group and a group that primarily focuses on webtoons, the numbers are more skewed towards online reader count (we do prints too!!). A series like Tower of God for example will get over 10k reads (with room to spare), but only like 800 downloads. And I'd expect that most of those downloads are by people who read it online already for archiving purposes. Our print comics like Zippy still gets 85~90% in online reads in comparison with downloads. We don't have IRC though.
Again, these are stats collected by the server, not voluntary results.
However, I think woxxy underestimates the size of the aggregates. Popular aggregates will reach views in millions, but I've never even heard of a scanlator's website that can get past 20k views per chapter on a single comic - which also implies serious bandwidth requirement for a scanlator's budget to hold up. Given such evidence, I'd say it's more like 99.9% of viewers are online readers globally and 0.1% downloaders.
________________
The Company
[b]Batoto
Again, these are stats collected by the server, not voluntary results.
However, I think woxxy underestimates the size of the aggregates. Popular aggregates will reach views in millions, but I've never even heard of a scanlator's website that can get past 20k views per chapter on a single comic - which also implies serious bandwidth requirement for a scanlator's budget to hold up. Given such evidence, I'd say it's more like 99.9% of viewers are online readers globally and 0.1% downloaders.
________________
The Company
[b]Batoto
