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Rape in Smut (or call them Cliches if you like...)

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Post #156244 - Reply to (#156086) by VampireBanana
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Masanobu Hojo
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12:10 am, Apr 23 2008
Posts: 366


Quote from yuri21
Btw, I find the rape in plenty of smut much more frightening than many "rape" scenes in hentai. ^^;; In smut, it's almost close to real rape and the portrayal of emotions like betrayal, sadness, fear, etc., makes it too painful and hideous to even believe that the girl is actually "enjoying" it. It's just horrible enough to make me feel sick. sad


I second this statement. Most rape scenes in H manga make me lol b/c they're so unrealistic and the girl ends up enjoying it anyway (WTF? laugh )

But in most shoujo manga the girl actually feels violated and puts up resistance. But afterwards she doesn't report it and goes to school and blushes everytime she sees the guy? confused

I don't wanna play the devil's advocate but all of Shinjo's works aren't as bad as, oh say, Love Celeb. Kaikan Phrase is pretty good and involves nothing non-consentual, and her one-shot Love Strip is actually about love believe it or not.

Oh yeah Pearilized you forgot Desire Climax, although I admit it's a guilty pleasure of mine embarrassed . Uwasa no Midori-kun just posses me off to the fullest. mad

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Post #157501
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8:02 am, Apr 29 2008
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Haha. The post above mine has a good point.

In smut category, the focus of the story is the rape scene, how agitated the girl is and how she expresses being ruined and all that.

In hentai, the focus of the story is the "act". how good it feels, zooming the genital areas from one place to another and apparently looking for the best angle for the ultimate shot of "fan-service"

The rape scenes in smut category where the girl will fall in love with the bastard afterwards is, yes, considered cliche. Actually, it's so sterotype, you feel like "Hell, another rape scene, next page please."

However way it's awful, the rape scene signifies the guy's "expression of love" to the girl (whom he shredded) and in most cases, the guy will do anything for the girl to forgive and he will show that he really love her. The (stupid) girl will realize that he really love him. They will be a couple and so another round of slap and tickle.

The end of another "Cinderella" story. smile

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12:51 pm, Apr 30 2008
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it's become a cliche in hentai, but this is a rather interesting subject...

if you think about it, outside of hentai, rape fantasies aren't terribly prevalent at all. In the old days, rape was used to make people pity the rapee, hate the rapist, and that was about it. The idea that rape is somehow a good form of sex has grown out of more and more violent sexual practices.

Bush says "there's no sex in violence" but even if you read ancient texts, it's clear that violence, or some form of rough physical interaction, has always been used as a way to turn people on.

Even "romance" novels written by women FOR WOMEN will often contain a sex scene like the following:

He swept me up in his powerful arms, and before I could even catch a surprised breath, he'd whisked me to the bedroom, ripped off my blouse, and thrown me onto the linen sheets.
As he removed his shirt, I came to my senses, realizing all too well what was about to happen. I sat up on the bed and tried to tell him that this was impossible, that we shouldn't do this, but he simply pushed me back down onto the soft sheets and captured my mouth in a hungry kiss, silencing my futile protests.

Now, seriously, this shit is old school. But it's almost just as much rape as in hentai. The girl didn't initiate the sex. She tried to stop it even. But the man's physical strength and perserverance ensures he winds up balls deep in her by the next paragraph.

And don't tell me, "That's not rape! She consented after he kissed her!"

Does it matter WHEN the other party consents, so long as they do?
In most hentai, as been said, the girl usually starts to enjoy the rape at some point. But does it stop becoming rape after she gets that glossy-look in her eyes in the last panel and says, "Please rape me more" ? Does it stop being rape when she starts moving her hips on her own, even if she's verbally protesting? Is the example I used above rape up until he kisses her, and magically not rape after?

Rape in hentai is, more often than not, the ultimate form of rough sex. (okay, guro is, but...). Sure, they sometimes use drugs, tentacle goo, magic and the like to keep the girl a 'mindless' slave. But it's just often a plot element trying to disguise the standard "caught up in the heat of the lustful moment" that is in plenty of romance novels.

so if there is "sex in violence" then to understand why rape is so prevalent in hentai, we need to understand what kind of violence is sexy. And, as they say, sexiness is in the eye of the beholder. Many fantasize about being dominated by their lover. The variable is the level of dominance that turns that person on! A nice little housewife might fantasize about being "taken" by the pool boy, and a sadist about being "raped" by unknown assailants, but they both want the same thing, rough sex with some kind of imbalance in control.

Control...

Control.
Controlling. Dominating.
Dominance. Violence.
Capacity for violence. Strength.
Strength. Ability to control.
Ability to control. Another's inability to control.
Inability to control. Weakness.
Weakness. Helplessness (lack of capacity for violence).
Helplessness. Submission.
Submitting. Allowing dominance.
Being dominating. Lack of control.
Control.

and rape, as you've seen, is all about control. It's control of sexual situations.

And, before I go, let me say I'm in no way advocating rape. I'm not. I'm just trying to explain why there is so much violence in sex. It is, quite simply, because violence is sexy, at least to the more primative part of our brain that we still have from when humans were trying just to survive in the wilderness. You can throw every single social, progressive, egalitarian concept you want up as reasons why rape isn't sexy, but, unfortunately, those concepts can't gain complete control over the purely physical, primitive attraction to violence.

Guns and dicks have a lot in common for a reason.

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Post #157768 - Reply to (#157763) by masamune
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1:57 pm, Apr 30 2008
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Quote from masamune
it's become a cliche in hentai, but this is a rather interesting subject...

if you think about it, outside of hentai, rape fantasies aren't terribly prevalent at all. In the old days, rape was used to make people pity the rapee, hate the rapist, and that was about it. The idea that rape is somehow a good form of sex has grown out of more and more violent sexual practices.

Bush says "there's no sex in violence" but even if you read ancient texts, it's clear that violence, or some form of rough physical interaction, has always been used as a way to turn people on.

Even "romance" novels written by women FOR WOMEN will often contain a sex scene like the following:

He swept me up in his powerful arms, and before I could even catch a surprised breath, he'd whisked me to the bedroom, ripped off my blouse, and thrown me onto the linen sheets.
As he removed his shirt, I came to my senses, realizing all too well what was about to happen. I sat up on the bed and tried to tell him that this was impossible, that we shouldn't do this, but he simply pushed me back down onto the soft sheets and captured my mouth in a hungry kiss, silencing my futile protests.

Now, seriously, this shit is old school. But it's almost just as much rape as in hentai. The girl didn't initiate the sex. She tried to stop it even. But the man's physical strength and perserverance ensures he winds up balls deep in her by the next paragraph.

And don't tell me, "That's not rape! She consented after he kissed her!"

Does it matter WHEN the other party consents, so long as they do?
In most hentai, as been said, the girl usually starts to enjoy the rape at some point. But does it stop becoming rape after she gets that glossy-look in her eyes in the last panel and says, "Please rape me more" ? Does it stop being rape when she starts moving her hips on her own, even if she's verbally protesting? Is the example I used above rape up until he kisses her, and magically not rape after?

Rape in hentai is, more often than not, the ultimate form of rough sex. (okay, guro is, but...). Sure, they sometimes use drugs, tentacle goo, magic and the like to keep the girl a 'mindless' slave. But it's just often a plot element trying to disguise the standard "caught up in the heat of the lustful moment" that is in plenty of romance novels.

so if there is "sex in violence" then to understand why rape is so prevalent in hentai, we need to understand what kind of violence is sexy. And, as they say, sexiness is in the eye of the beholder. Many fantasize about being dominated by their lover. The variable is the level of dominance that turns that person on! A nice little housewife might fantasize about being "taken" by the pool boy, and a sadist about being "raped" by unknown assailants, but they both want the same thing, rough sex with some kind of imbalance in control.

Control...

Control.
Controlling. Dominating.
Dominance. Violence.
Capacity for violence. Strength.
Strength. Ability to control.
Ability to control. Another's inability to control.
Inability to control. Weakness.
Weakness. Helplessness (lack of capacity for violence).
Helplessness. Submission.
Submitting. Allowing dominance.
Being dominating. Lack of control.
Control.

and rape, as you've seen, is all about control. It's control of sexual situations.

And, before I go, let me say I'm in no way advocating rape. I'm not. I'm just trying to explain why there is so much violence in sex. It is, quite simply, because violence is sexy, at least to the more primative part of our brain that we still have from when humans were trying just to survive in the wilderness. You can throw every single social, progressive, egalitarian concept you want up as reasons why rape isn't sexy, but, unfortunately, those concepts can't gain complete control over the purely physical, primitive attraction to violence.

Guns and dicks have a lot in common for a reason.
I applaud you for your well-written post. Instead of just bitching, you provided examples to support your opinion. This is truly one of the best posts I've read on the site.

Props to you.


Post #159343
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9:12 am, May 7 2008
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i liked smut..
but no mangas other than that, i agree with you

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Post #159416 - Reply to (#157768) by Dubby
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Mad With a Hat
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12:27 pm, May 7 2008
Posts: 4764


Quote from Dubby
Quote from masamune
it's become a cliche in hentai, but this is a rather interesting subject...

if you think about it, outside of hentai, rape fantasies aren't terribly prevalent at all. In the old days, rape was used to make people pity the rapee, hate the rapist, and that was about it. The idea that rape is somehow a good form of sex has grown out of more and more violent sexual practices.

Bush says "there's no sex in violence" but even if you read ancient texts, it's clear that violence, or some form of rough physical interaction, has always been used as a way to turn people on.

Even "romance" novels written by women FOR WOMEN will often contain a sex scene like the following:

He swept me up in his powerful arms, and before I could even catch a surprised breath, he'd whisked me to the bedroom, ripped off my blouse, and thrown me onto the linen sheets.
As he removed his shirt, I came to my senses, realizing all too well what was about to happen. I sat up on the bed and tried to tell him that this was impossible, that we shouldn't do this, but he simply pushed me back down onto the soft sheets and captured my mouth in a hungry kiss, silencing my futile protests.

Now, seriously, this shit is old school. But it's almost just as much rape as in hentai. The girl didn't initiate the sex. She tried to stop it even. But the man's physical strength and perserverance ensures he winds up balls deep in her by the next paragraph.

And don't tell me, "That's not rape! She consented after he kissed her!"

Does it matter WHEN the other party consents, so long as they do?
In most hentai, as been said, the girl usually starts to enjoy the rape at some point. But does it stop becoming rape after she gets that glossy-look in her eyes in the last panel and says, "Please rape me more" ? Does it stop being rape when she starts moving her hips on her own, even if she's verbally protesting? Is the example I used above rape up until he kisses her, and magically not rape after?

Rape in hentai is, more often than not, the ultimate form of rough sex. (okay, guro is, but...). Sure, they sometimes use drugs, tentacle goo, magic and the like to keep the girl a 'mindless' slave. But it's just often a plot element trying to disguise the standard "caught up in the heat of the lustful moment" that is in plenty of romance novels.

so if there is "sex in violence" then to understand why rape is so prevalent in hentai, we need to understand what kind of violence is sexy. And, as they say, sexiness is in the eye of the beholder. Many fantasize about being dominated by their lover. The variable is the level of dominance that turns that person on! A nice little housewife might fantasize about being "taken" by the pool boy, and a sadist about being "raped" by unknown assailants, but they both want the same thing, rough sex with some kind of imbalance in control.

Control...

Control.
Controlling. Dominating.
Dominance. Violence.
Capacity for violence. Strength.
Strength. Ability to control.
Ability to control. Another's inability to control.
Inability to control. Weakness.
Weakness. Helplessness (lack of capacity for violence).
Helplessness. Submission.
Submitting. Allowing dominance.
Being dominating. Lack of control.
Control.

and rape, as you've seen, is all about control. It's control of sexual situations.

And, before I go, let me say I'm in no way advocating rape. I'm not. I'm just trying to explain why there is so much violence in sex. It is, quite simply, because violence is sexy, at least to the more primative part of our brain that we still have from when humans were trying just to survive in the wilderness. You can throw every single social, progressive, egalitarian concept you want up as reasons why rape isn't sexy, but, unfortunately, those concepts can't gain complete control over the purely physical, primitive attraction to violence.

Guns and dicks have a lot in common for a reason.
I applaud you for your well-written post. Instead of just bitching, you provided examples to support your opinion. This is truly one of the best posts I've read on the site.

Props to you.


Indeed. I second Dubby^^




Even if the victim strats to feel pleasure at some point, it doesn't mean it not rape..
Same goes with the (public view?) that men cannot be raped...

Even in smut or hentai- I don't find rape arousing nor amusing..
I preffer to skip it in hentai, and usually drop the manga that contains rape~~

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Masanobu Hojo
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8:11 pm, May 7 2008
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Wow I didn't expect this to turn into some deep discussion of violence and sex in the world today.

Some hentai does take the subject matter seriously even if it doesn't come to some deep, dramatic conclusion. But what I meant to say in my previous post was that those shojo cliches of "falling in love w/ your tormentor" are just as ridiculous as hentai stories about school girls or office ladies who turn into sluts b/c they were molested on a train.

P.S. I don't usually read hentai w/ rape either b/c rape is horrifying no matter how you look at it. But I just have to lol sometimes whenever I read the lines of: "Oh my God!! It feels so good! Give me more! Cum inside!!" while this woman is being violated by numerous men, most of which carry some horrible disease.

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7:51 pm, Jul 2 2008
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I guess young girls like reading them to repress their hormones somehow or another.

I personally read some of them and I didn't enjoy it. Dx

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4:23 pm, Jul 3 2008
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This is pretty much when i go look for a manga to read, i always cross out shoujo and josei off the list.. annoying cliche crap like this

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10:17 pm, Jul 3 2008
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thank god!

everyone hates it!

i found rape sick, disgusting and horrifying......

i hate to see rape in the manga...it acts like it's encouraging this outrageous behaviour esp when the gal always tend to fall in love with the rapist

slap out of it!

he's a criminal!

it's sick sick sick.........

Post #178460 - Reply to (#116177) by funkmu1
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2:26 pm, Jul 12 2008
Posts: 38


Quote from funkmu1
kinda like stockholm syndrome. Where the hostage symphasizes with the terrorist or wahtever and falls in love with him or her.



I actually thought it could have been like this. It got me really annoyed to read these stories in which logic and self respects didn't even exist as ideas. But then, I thought that it could be an "after effect"; these girls could be traumatized and thus comply with their victimizer or even feel in love with him. I wouldn't know how else to explain this, other than the latter idea or that they are actually stupid women giving the rest of us a bad name.
I also thought of it as perhaps a cultural idea that I don't know and understand. Perhaps this overpowering patriarch behavior is seen as the most masculine and in a way preferred because of its patriarch rules. I thought that perhaps a sensitive man was seen as less of a man because of his actions of respect sensitivity and compassion. But I don't know. What do you guys think of the latter?

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5:57 pm, Jul 14 2008
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Right, well, I don't really read that much shojou/josei, primarily for this reason, sorta. For some reason, the fact that a comic, aimed for ladies, features some of the weakest, dumbest women ever. Really, what part of this is ever right or helpful. They say the women in stuff aim for guys are bad, but this is, in my head, 10x worse. Atleast the ones in shounen and seinen are mostly strong willed-ish, not some one who would drop trou for some one who is flat out abusive. I've seen it in real life, and it leads to alot of spousal abuse in real life. But, maybe thats what theyre trying to do, brain wash their women back...

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Post #179137 - Reply to (#116080) by CatzCradle
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rebmeM
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7:35 pm, Jul 14 2008
Posts: 258


Quote
The end?

Well, maybe sometimes there's the part where Girl (same ppl previously mentioned above) meets Guy's Rival (or something like that), who is really nice and friendly to her. Rival tries to kiss Girl, yet is slapped and rejected for Guy...

Am I the only who gets pissed off when this happens? This was exactly why I gave up reading smut at the age of 13...


Glad to know that i'm not the only one, cheer up dude, i totally agree with you. Almost every smut manga that i ever come across with had that kinda plot. Sometimes i get so pissed off that i had to vent my anger on my poor pillow. Wtf! is it that easy to get a girl to sleep with ya, man i'm more mad at the girls rather than the guys, how can they be soo... stupid to get herself in such situation, sure the guys a f@#$in a#$%le, but come on man, if you really care about yourself, i expect you'd fight with tooth and nail and everything right?

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1:07 am, Jul 15 2008
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Manasume: your post is really well thought of.

I hadn't considered the part of "sex" about "control" in a long time. smile But what you said about rape and sex is all kinda true since there're many more couples these days who like to roleplay rape, torture, etc. that falls along the lines of the harder types of sex like "s&m" in "bdsm".


gurrla: Hmmm... that sounds like it might be true although it could be 'cos some females are still brought up to "older kinda values" where the male is superior to the female. I mean if you considered that some of these mangaka are likely around the ages of 20s to 40s, it's quite possible.

And if you also considered the fact that quite a few of the older generation in Japan might consider that the younger generations are getting out of hand and that they've to be "set onto the right path", then it isn't too difficult to ponder if such works are a after-effect of such a mindset.

Last edited by yuri21 at 1:15 am, Jul 15 2008

Post #179586 - Reply to (#179264) by VampireBanana
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5:32 pm, Jul 15 2008
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Quote from yuri21
Manasume: your post is really well thought of.

I hadn't considered the part of "sex" about "control" in a long time. smile But what you said about rape and sex is all kinda true since there're many more couples these days who like to roleplay rape, torture, etc. that falls along the lines of the harder types of sex like "s&m" in "bdsm".


gurrla: Hmmm... that sounds like it might be true although it could be 'cos some females are still brought up to "older kinda values" where the male is superior to the female. I mean if you considered that some of these mangaka are likely around the ages of 20s to 40s, it's quite possible.

And if you also considered the fact that quite a few of the older generation in Japan might consider that the younger generations are getting out of hand and that they've to be "set onto the right path", then it isn't too difficult to ponder if such works are a after-effect of such a mindset.


So, could it be that the mangaka are actually working with the system and trying to re-enforce this power dynamic and unbalance in order to preserve "the old ways"? I mean, that's how I am understanding you.
You say that these authors are in their 20's to 40's. I am in my 20's and yet my ideas and beliefs are forever broadening my mind and seeking a more equal social norm.
I am hispanic, our culture is patriarchal, although when compared to the Japanese culture, I don't necessarily know how patriarchal we are. Perhaps our hemisphere is quickly changing because of the strong american influence as well as the disproportional age range in our societies. I feel like there are more young people from the newer generations than people of the older ones.
I do believe the point you've made is very plausible. I have often wonder what the Japanese culture dictates to its young minds. I don't really know it well, but from the little that I know, it gives the idea that new and old ideas and ways of life can co-exist. Of course, it never specifies what forms (ways) of life that actually survive. Perhaps one of the old ways that is being perpetuated is the male/female dynamic and its power struggle.

Last edited by gurrla at 5:38 pm, Jul 15 2008

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