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Can't believe there's so few shoujo female dominance manga!

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WShin
Post #564726
user avatar
Member

6:50 am, Aug 7 2012
Posts: 41


@ YouStoopet:

"And i think you misunderstood, Femdom doesn't apply only to female-male relationships, it goes for Yuri too, and threesomes (In case of Hentai), hence why i said male or female partner." Oh, I didn't know about that - I did misunderstand, sorry. I don't usually read yuri.

I know about UtaPri - when I didn't know what it was about and only admired the art, I liked it. I still like the male leads (*ahem* Otoya), but yeah, I don't like that helpless, bumbly side of her (this is what her personality is made up of, and a talent for songwriting, if I remember correctly from breadmasterlee reviews). This is an otome game; why can't the woman be in power/confident about herself for once?

Was the heroine helpless in HakuOuki? I like to think not, but I guess I haven't played the game.

Arcana famigalia - it was a bit closer to what I'm thinking of in terms of confident female. Most of the male leads were uncomfortably weird though (I wonder if that's an underlying message: Be confident and self-assured, and actually dominate at something, and most of the men interested in you will be seriously messed up in some way). I am hoping the latter is the reason why it didn't sell so well, and not because the female was capable of protecting herself and taking the lead.

I hate raising this example, but I'll do it anyways: Quinrose - Alice in the Heart/Clover/Joker no Kuni series could be considered confident at times (she's certainly got more mood swings when she starts liking the guys more). And the series is wildly popular. The only problem I have with the franchise is the Alice is the one that needs to be saved, Blood/Twins/Ace/Boris/Peter are almost the ones who initiate the smut scenes every time (Alice gets pushed down/up against something a lot in their routes-doesn't she ever get bruises?). Gowland's was probably the only route where she was doing an equal amount of initiating/follow-through - but that may have been due to the fact that he was considered an ossan (I liked his route because of Alice being more active in their relationship, and not because he was an ossan).

"this world is pretty unfair, if you just express your opinion then people would avoid you, call you a freak, or some retarded crap (excuse the rage moment). " - Not entirely true; you awesome people joined into this conversation to give your opinions - none of you avoided me, called me a freak (so far, XD), etc. Have a little more faith biggrin The interwebz is where you can shout out your true feelings and hear other people's. And we all know the interwebz have power to change the world.

"there are strong and masculine men who prefer strong women over "normal" ones, they want someone to keep up with them and be there for them and DO something for them." - Haha, although I want to be a strong woman and be a black belt in karate, or a pro in another martial art, I'm pretty much normal (but I can definitely push a guy down if I want to and he wants me to >.> /looks away quickly. "Ignore me!") Hopefully, strong and masculine men who aren't afraid to cry/blush/get teary-eyed/show emotions and are into manga as much as I am...yeah, probably not.

"no need to get upset over such minor and trivial things, you'll just end up thinking of unnecessary stuff and overworking your brain resulting in unnecessary headaches, i've been there, trust me." - It's not a minor nor trivial thing, actually. To each their own, but I like thinking about it - what good is a brain if you're not overworking it? XD

Just realized something: You play otome games too? You know what an otome game is?

Last edited by WShin at 6:58 am, Aug 7

YouStoopet
Post #564728
Member

7:17 am, Aug 7 2012
Posts: 6


@WShin

Lol, redhead bishounens are pretty popular, eh?

Well like i said earlier, it's easier that way for the players/viewers/readers to relate to, and the "femdom" market is very very small, lol you can even probably count the people who're into said genre xD
But there are some moments where the protagonists grow some backbone.

Well, not "helpless", more like your average girl, surrounded by bishounens and whatnot ;p

as for the breadmasterlee blog, the admin there is pretty narrow-minded and prude, some of his/her reviews and posts makes you wonder "why is a person like this even exists"? but i do get a few general ideas about certain otome games sometimes. and i do apperciate his/her effort, although that mindset won't get him/her anywhere.

Well, if you check the top sellers list on mania's forums or any site you know that shows records of unit/volume sales of anime/manga/otome or pretty any format, you'll realize it's impossible to find an even average or decent seller that has a confident and agressive female protagonist, so i don't think it's the cast that stops it from selling, since pretty much every character in the otaku media is weird in a way or another, regardless of genre or the target demographic, so yeah. (There's also this R-18 Otome game called "Chou no Doku Hana no Kusari" Where the female protagonist is a total wimp, and this game has got a spot in the top 100 PC game sellers in Amazon, and even beating half the Eroges there) anyway i think the main reason being that most people do not like that type of women, unfortunately, but what can you do :/

And you mean Heart no alice no kuni? I heard of it, although honestly it doesn't seem like it's popular, since i've heard of pretty much all the popular Otome games.

haha, i laughed hard at the "interwebz" thingie lol, but yea you're right, the internet is the place where you can scream it all out with no one stopping you ;p


Lol, but of course i do, My sister has tons of Otome games and posters stacked in her room, she even lends me some from time to time.

and in case someone here doesn't know what it is xD
Otome games are visual novels targeted at the female market, instead of the typical male protagonist-several heroines, it's female protagonist-several heroes ;p



StephKuran
Post #564730 - Reply to (#564709) by WShin
user avatar
Member

7:58 am, Aug 7 2012
Posts: 248


@WShin
Actually I think both mangas are quite accurate to a certain point. Some are so complicated that can refuse someone, and when they feel the guy is leaving, try to get him again (Stroke Material). And I know girls who certainly have no heart, in real life. I kinda feel pity for the guy, but there are lots of M out there too (Prince's Cactus).

Quote
There are lots of shoujo where the female is the one who takes the first action (depending on how you define it, it could be confessing, kissing, hugging, blushing, etc.) My problem is that they don't follow through/ need to the guy to follow through. For the second point, I'd prefer taking over - there's a lot where the female enjoys it (or is like: "No, stop it-oh wait, I think I like this", depending on your preference). I don't quite understand your fourth point. Do you mean a guy like a girl more than he likes his onahole? I would hope so. Sorry if it's not what you meant.

I want to point out that we're talking about manga, otherwise mentioned.

With first action I mean the initiative in any activity regarding couple intimacy. That's why I stated What I'd like to see in female characters in a relationship before.

I guess we're dealing with mature matters and genres because is almost useless to mention shoujo manga. My initial point is about how rare is a character trying to give a kiss or having sex with her boyfriend with blunt self-confidence and keeping up the courage. I know it's hard to get accustomed even with someone you love, but if you took that step you're implying your disposition to love and be loved, not to restrain yourself.

If we talk about a previous status and you let me share my opinion, I don't really like when the girl confesses. First, they always lower their head (as if it's a sin); second, they do it almost shouting and sorrounded by people; third, blushing is like the signal to start laughing at the girl. The way mangakas portray a confession is 99% of the times is totally shameful, immature and often accompanied by rejections. And if the guy accept is just because he was asked to, feelings aren't considered but masked with the typical "she's cute" (not to mention 10 pages later both are madly in love).

Everything seems ok for 2 and 3.

Let me explain the 4th. By (pre)adolescent sex machines, I meant all the 16 & under guys who are supposed to be the most experienced in sexuality themes. In shoujo we often see MCs who had tons of girls on their beds by the time they meet the FCs (always virgins), since they've lived quite enough to make them feel good. So by Beating out those (pre)adolescent sex machines I referred to some girl capable of refrain a guy's instincts. A great example is Kawaii Oresama.
Quote
Onto the article - I love breadmasterlee - I'm a total lurker on Hinano's site...

The article is great. I was cultivating myself about otome games, just out of curiosity, and came with this. I keep thinking on the fact that if we have shounen vs shoujo, seinen vs josei, ecchi vs smut, why there's no hentai vs f-hentai? Girls are pervy too (I guess bigrazz), so it'd be fair read/play something where we aren't objects. But in the end, I'm so lazy to download anything, so I won't find things of the sort...
Quote
"The passive role certainly was imposed by someone with self-esteem. I'm not saying that is bad (actually can be fun sometimes, everyones wants to be spoiled), but as a forever lifestyle sucks." - I don't exactly agree with the fact that dominating someone is equivalent to spoiling him/her, but I guess if you're an M (like the mangaka assumes the average shoujo reader is)...

Actually I mentioned passive role. Domination-submission was mentioned a bit below as something bad. I tried to refer to the thousands of people living like that for culture or conviction. Personally I don't like it, but if their mates (the providers) value and treasure them (the handwork) it's perfectly respectable for me.

I didn't explain correctly the fun/spoiling thing. Some of the feminism premises were the right to vote and the right to divorce. Based on that, some men organizations arose and said that if they wanted to be equal, any considerations will be taken away, e.g. politeness. So the eternal sexisms blurted out and there were even more strict groups; at least for me, the petitions aren't out of this world (can't use weren't yet), not everybody can see this way though. Women aren't inferior, but biologically are more emotional, and a normal woman likes attention and courtesy the same way a man likes to be called the alpha. That was my point, I assume there are couples who like to change roles for fun, and at least one in a lifetime a girl will play the damsel-in-distress to be spoiled.

Quote
Isn't it ironic that one of the top-selling series on the continent (North America) is Fifty Shades of Grey?

I didn't know about that "book" until few weeks ago. When I read the summarize, I got a eek face. I believe that humans need doses of sexuality, either physical (by experience) or other means (by getting proof), but also it has negative effects, more over those mentally ill. These kinds of materials should be treated with supreme discretion due to their influence and risk of falling in the wrong hands. Everyone has particular likings and is free, however this feels directed to specific purposes... I'm not even a fan of Harry Potter for example, but certainly had good life lessons.

Getting to know that a best-seller doesn't imply to be a good book along with a world where isn't bad showing off these themes, but an offense trying to change the system... In the end, we can't get rid of our instinctive part, right?


WShin
Post #564731 - Reply to (#564728) by YouStoopet
user avatar
Member

7:59 am, Aug 7 2012
Posts: 41


@YouStoopet:

"Lol, redhead bishounens are pretty popular, eh?" - There's other popular redheaded bishounen? where? XD. Yeah, I'm partial to them myself. But I liked Otoya because he's optimistic, upbeat, and loves music (triple whammy to my heart).

"Well, not "helpless", more like your average girl, surrounded by bishounens and whatnot ;p" - Your average girl? May I know in which country this is average so I can move there immediately? - Kidding smile

"as for the breadmasterlee blog, the admin there is pretty narrow-minded and prude, some of his/her reviews and posts makes you wonder "why is a person like this even exists"? but i do get a few general ideas about certain otome games sometimes. and i do apperciate his/her effort, although that mindset won't get him/her anywhere." - I don't think Hinano is a prude, actually. Which reviews made you think so? I agree with and like many of her posts, but I want to hear your opinion on the ones that you didn't like.

"(There's also this R-18 Otome game called "Chou no Doku Hana no Kusari" Where the female protagonist is a total wimp, and this game has got a spot in the top 100 PC game sellers in Amazon, and even beating half the Eroges there) anyway i think the main reason being that most people do not like that type of women, unfortunately, but what can you do :/" I think I played that game once, just for the heck of it. Lesson learned: Don't play series that you know will probably be bad, and others have said are bad.

"And you mean Heart no alice no kuni? I heard of it, although honestly it doesn't seem like it's popular, since i've heard of pretty much all the popular Otome games." - I will defend that it's popular with all my might. Try it if you like kuuderes (she's spunky, at least).

"Lol, but of course i do, My sister has tons of Otome games and posters stacked in her room, she even lends me some from time to time." Man, you are so lucky you understand japanese...and have access to so many games. I have to get by on reviews, most of the time.

My main intent of this thread was to stir up some thought and hopefully motivate an up and coming mangaka with this idea/or a beginning mangaka. Hopefully I'll see some femdom work from some of you in the near future?

Last edited by WShin at 8:06 am, Aug 7

TofuQueen
Post #564732
user avatar
Crazy Cat Lady
Member

8:25 am, Aug 7 2012
Posts: 1842


Interesting conversation...which I've only skimmed, as there's a LOT of text.... (O_o)

My apologies if this was already mentioned & I missed it - how about the "fantasy" element? That's one reason I enjoy romances where the guy takes charge & the woman goes along with it (eh...not meaning anything extreme here...doormat heroines & abusive boyfriends irritate the bejeebers out of me), and everything turns out fine/happy.

IRL I would never, EVER just let someone else take the initiative and trust that everything would work out. Maybe I'm a bit of an overly-responsible control freak; to me just letting someone else take charge in reality would be practically impossible but as a fantasy it sounds pretty nice sometimes. laugh

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yarn
Post #564733
yarny, yarny
Member

8:27 am, Aug 7 2012
Posts: 86


Ah, very interesting discussion.

I noticed early on when I started reading shoujo/josei romance, that even if the girl started out being assertive in the relationship and on an equal footing with her male love interest, she'd always end up becoming all melty and blushy and letting him take the lead in everything. From what I've seen, this happens practically 100% in "smut" titles. And I'm not going to even go into the rape ones.

I understand that a lot of girls/women enjoy this kind of stuff. That's OK - we all have different things that satisfy us. But *I* don't like it. I'm not a passive person. So if I see a for-females manga whose sole selling point is romance, I don't read it. I already know how it's going to turn out. I have found a couple of romance ones that I do like. But that's usually because they already fall outside of the mainstream.

As much as ecchi has its own problems, when I'm craving some romance, that's what I'll go to to find something. Because I feel I'm much more likely to find a girl who will have some spine.

And I wasn't aware that otome games were like that eek I've never been into games of any sort, so I guess I'm not missing anything.

Kitteh_13
Post #564736
user avatar
Member

8:28 am, Aug 7 2012
Posts: 749


Read Goong. She dominates so hard it's sad and depressing.
Or My Fucking Lover. Or Model.

I dunno, obviously it doesn't dominate, but there are definitely tons of shoujo/josei out there with the dominant females you just need to look. I came up with those three off the top of my head.

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YouStoopet
Post #564738
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8:45 am, Aug 7 2012
Posts: 6


@WShin

I believe that guy from Aquarion has got his own share of popularity lol

errr,i don't really wanna talk about it, just remembering those reviews and some posts make me bang my head on the wall.

You shouldn't listen to what anyone says though, if one or two say something is bad, the rest might say it's good, and it can go the other way around too. as for that game, i played it a little, and for me it was typical, although it got alot of reviews on Amazon and nearly all of them are positive.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/aromarie-%E8%9D%B6%E3%81%AE% E6%AF%92-%E8%8F%AF%E3%81%AE%E9%8E%96-%E5%88% 9D%E5%9B%9E%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%E7%89%88/dp/B00 4OBZI5S/ref=zg_bs_927712_33

If you can read japanese, if not then as you can see, it's rank is high, it even beat alot of good selling eroge (Ranked 33), so yeah, as you can see, the majority prefer the "average" or "innocent/shy" type because in our society that's the norm. although a little change once in a while doesn't hurt.

I understand that you like the game, but i seriously couldn't find anything that implies it's popular, many Otome games are getting adaptions nowadays, and the only adaption that series got is a short OVA, which had crappy BD/DVD sales, as far as Stalker's records go.

Yeah, well hopefully i'll get the chance to become a mangaka, although you have to know that mangaka's write and draw what appeals to the audience, for example, take a Shounen manga, It's a common feature that the protagonist starts out normal, then he grows in terms of maturity, strengh, etc etc etc. well it's kind of the same with pretty much all the genres, if something sells, is popular, and the fans want it, then mangakas/anime studios/VN companies/LN authors will make more of it, all that while trying to make it believable and no extreme content.

all in all, the reason behind femdom being uncommon is because its market is very small, and people do not like it, or find it appealing. but of course there are those few people as exceptions, like us here, but since the world is shitty and unfair, the minority's voice is like non-existant or something.

anyway, i'll go grab something to eat xD, i'm hungry.

yarn
Post #564739 - Reply to (#564736) by Kitteh_13
yarny, yarny
Member

9:14 am, Aug 7 2012
Posts: 86


Quote from Kitteh_13
Read Goong. She dominates so hard it's sad and depressing.
Or My Fucking Lover. Or Model.

I dunno, obviously it doesn't dominate, but there are definitely tons of shoujo/josei out there with the dominant females you just need to look. I came up with those three off the top of my head.

Goong and Model are from Korea, I believe. I don't know how different the female social norms there are compared to Japan. [EDIT: Actually, now that I think of it, one of my favorite stories is a "shoujo" manhwa: Ciel Last Autumn Story. Talk about an aggressive female lead! I can also think of Evyione. I think there must really be a different climate about the types of stories that are considered acceptable or are liked by Korean girls.]

----------

Another thing I thought of is female mangaka who write stories for shounen/seinen publications. I think you're more likely to find assertive females in those places than you do in mainstream shoujo/josei.

One mangaka I thought of is Hoshino Lily, who mostly does BL (judging by her profile here) but also does the seinen title Otome Youkai Zakuro. The story is told from the perspective of the female lead, who is a very strong and interesting character. (Sadly, they seemed to change this in the anime adaptation, telling it from the male lead's perspective, and simplifying her into a tsundere.)

My point is, I think there are a fair number of female mangaka who are and would be willing to write more stories with dominant female characters. But for some reason they can't get these kinds of stories printed in for-girls publications.

Last edited by yarn at 9:32 am, Aug 7

YouStoopet
Post #564740 - Reply to (#564739) by yarn
Member

9:21 am, Aug 7 2012
Posts: 6


Quote from yarn
Goong and Model are from Korea, I believe. I don't know how different the female social norms there are compared to Japan.

----------

Another thing I thought of is female mangaka who write stories for shounen/seinen publications. I think you're more likely to find assertive females in those pla ...


Yeah, i noticed there are quite a few assertive females in Shounen/Seinen, although they're mostly just for fanservice, just like in Hentai and Ecchi '_'

Korean mangas are pretty similar to Japanese ones, in nearly everything, except the art-style is slightly different. but yeah, there's just as few assertive females in korean mangas as there is in japanese ones, and pretty much all kinds of comics.

and yeah, there are some mangaka, both female and male, who're willing to write/draw stories with assertive females, but the fanbase for such stuff is still very small, so it'd be like a worthless effort from their part, although people like us would apperciate even them trying lol

Roughan
Post #564953
user avatar
Member

5:45 pm, Aug 8 2012
Posts: 250


read Ooku, the society in the manga is dominated by women. It's a critically acclaimed and award winning manga by the best shojo/josei manga artist of this generation.

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