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Should manga aggregator sites be allowed to use mangaupdates for their means of advertising?

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Poll
Should manga aggregator sites be allowed to use mangaupdates for their means of advertising?
No, definitely not!
Yes, why not?
I don't care
Votes: 146

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Claudia
Post #569219
user avatar
Member

10:52 am, Sep 8 2012
Posts: 64


I'm curious what the scanlation community thinks about manga aggretator sites releasing chapters on mangaupdates.

Are you alright with those sites paying people to work on these chapters and "steal" every popular project any scanlator group has with the sole purpose that their site release it 1st and be able to generate even more revenue for their site?

Do you think it is ethical big sites like mangareader and mangafox profiting from other peoples work? (Im talking about the authors/ artists here)
And lately... they even try to control the scanlation community?

As if it was not enough using scanlators to profit for themselves they even try to bite the hand that feeds them now? They might be thinking something along the lines: "Scanlators are useless we can do those projects ourselves."

I know mangaupdates are trying to be neutral on this matter but when you allow a manga reader site to release a chapter that is not only a new release. That is also extra advertising for them.

Should they be allowed to use mangaupdates for their means of advertising?

I'm posting this here as it is a neutral forum and I would like to see what other scanlators think about this matter?


________________
egscans.org
kaloo
Post #569237
Member

3:16 pm, Sep 8 2012
Posts: 395


They're lame and I don't like them but this is a database of scanlations so they can post what they make here.

Arigatomina
Post #569337
Member

6:06 am, Sep 9 2012
Posts: 32


Any scanlation group can post ads on their site in order to make a profit. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to list their releases here. The database is to list scanlations. If they scanlated them, they belong here.

I would have no issues if MU wanted to prohibit *links* to these sites. Naming them is simply making a record of their activity. Linking to them is directing traffic and increasing their income.

As for the "ethics" question, I don't care much. What they're doing is blatantly and openly illegal. They're not just "using" the books, they're doing it for profit. There's nothing "fair" about that use. If the authors don't feel like suing them, that's their choice. What bothers me is when artist do try to make a site stop, like they did with mangafox, yet the site continues to ignore them and get away with it. But if the artists can't do anything, and the law can't stop them, you might as well just learn to live with it. Don't give them money by visiting them. That's the only thing you can do. If you don't support them, then don't support them by visiting and giving them money.

As for these sites "stealing" scanlations...it depends. If they're reposting other people's scanlations, then those projects should not be credited to that site in the first place. If they're doing duplicates of the same projects other groups are doing, then it's fair use. Anyone with a copy of that book has as much right to scanlate their own version as the groups already doing so. Unless they're using someone else's raws/cleaning/translation/typesetting their scanlation is as valid as any other scanlation of that project. It might not be as good, and they might not have been respectful and polite about doing it, but it's a scanlation and it's theirs. This site lists scanlations - all scanlations of that particular book, not just the version made by the group fans like/respect the most.

Unless MU makes a firm stand in boycotting any groups that have ads on their sites, the fact that they're hosting their scanlation on a site with ads in order to make money shouldn't be a factor in whether or not the scanlation is listed here. That's a slippery slope to make a stand on. You boycot the aggregator sites and you have to check every "personal" scanlator website for ads to make sure they're not doing the same thing on a smaller scale. Then you have to consider that livejournal and mediafire are making lots of money from hosting scanlations. Just because the scanlators aren't pocketing the money doesn't mean those scanlations are being used for profit - and the scanlators are to blame because they uploaded those projects to those for-profit sites. Even paid lj groups and ad-free sites are paying someone to host that content, and that person is making lots of money off it. Unless you stick with irc and the like, there is no such thing as "free sharing" of scanlations. Someone is going to be making money, and personally I'd rather it be the scanlator than mediafire.

wolfinthesheep
Post #569339
Member

6:38 am, Sep 9 2012
Posts: 182


Is this another stealth whine about MangaPirates?

Like it or not, they scanlate their own stuff and release it...which MangaUpdates exists to report on.

Want to exclude Dynasty Scans and Japanzai as well? I mean, they have extensive readers as well. How about Scanlators that ask for donations? Money is money, doesn't matter if it's profit.

tragicking
Post #569379 - Reply to (#569337) by Arigatomina
user avatar
Member

3:13 pm, Sep 9 2012
Posts: 60


Quote from Arigatomina
Any scanlation group can post ads on their site in order to make a profit. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to list their releases here. The database is to list scanlations. If they scanlated them, they belong here.

I would have no issues if MU wanted to prohibit *links* to these site ...

I think you misunderstood her. She have no problem with any group for placing ads or something like that. She clearly mentioned that she was talking about manga hosting sites. We all know the difference between manga reading sites and scanlators. Manga reader sites are using releases which are not done by them. And to advertise themselves they are using MU as a medium by releasing new chapters.
So the topic is not anyways related to profit made by scanlators.....
Any group can add their releases here for any project regardless whether other group is doing or not but aggregiate sites who uses releases as a medium to promote themselves should definately be not allowed.

Hanae
Post #569388
user avatar
Member

6:35 pm, Sep 9 2012
Posts: 750


Um, I didn't see any "manga aggregator" site ads on mangaupdates. Did I overlook them, or are you talking about a hypothetical situation?

Arigatomina
Post #569389 - Reply to (#569379) by tragicking
Member

6:42 pm, Sep 9 2012
Posts: 32


Quote from tragicking
Manga reader sites are using releases which are not done by them. And to advertise themselves they are using MU as a medium by releasing new chapters.

How many releases does a group have to host which are not done by them before they're counted as a "manga reader site" instead of a "scanlation site"? Or is it only the groups who don't have permission to host other people's work who are considered "manga reader" groups? What about groups located on forums who allow members to post and share other people's scanlations without permission. Should those groups not be allowed to list their own releases on MU?

Lots of scanlators bulk up and pad out their collection with other people's projects in order to better feed visitors. The polite ones just make sure they have permission before doing so. The thing that separates these "manga reader sites" isn't that they accumulate other people's scanlations and keep themselves "legit" by releasing a scanlation of their own now and then. It's the fact that they're doing it for money and they're making a lot of it.

Once you remove money from the equation, you're just talking about "theft" - sharing (using) other people's work without permission. Every group that uses someone else's raws without permission is just as bad as the groups who repost other people's scanlations without permission. Yet people on this forum seem to take it for granted that "if you can find the raws online, you're free to use them." MU even has a sticky post promoting the use of "found scans" without permission or credit. So why shouldn't these manga reader sites apply the same "ethics" to scanlations found online? I don't consider mangafox a thief when half the projects they've "stolen" were made using raws those scanlation groups "stole" from some poor dupe of a scanner who didn't even get credited for ruining a book he paid good money for. I prefer honor among thieves that extends to include scanners as well as scanlators. If you don't have any respect for the scanner, don't expect any as a scanlator. But if you get into the theft argument, someone is going to chime in about scanlators "stealing" from the original artist, and that entire debate will fall apart.

I'm convinced the problem here is the money. We're jealous that they're making money and we're not, we're insulted that they're being rude about it, and we're outraged that they're doing it so openly they're causing artists to send out C&D letters to perfectly respectable (innocent) scanlation groups. If MU makes a stand, it should be based off that last point. They're making profit so openly it is harming the scanlation hobby as a whole. As a site based around scanlations, MU should be against those who intentionally try to kill the entire hobby just to make a quick buck.

kamochi
Post #569392
Member

7:19 pm, Sep 9 2012
Posts: 3


Thinly veiled mangapirate butthurt thread.You are the one advertising them with all this whining.

Chaoskitty
Post #569393 - Reply to (#569339) by wolfinthesheep
user avatar
Member

7:26 pm, Sep 9 2012
Posts: 232


Quote from wolfinthesheep
Is this another stealth whine about MangaPirates?

Like it or not, they scanlate their own stuff and release it...which MangaUpdates exists to report on.

Want to exclude Dynasty Scans and Japanzai as well? I mean, they have extensive readers as well. How about Scanlators that ask for donations? ...


^^^ Seconded to the sun and back. Really Cluadia you aren't being sneaky, projects get stolen; get over it. It happens to everyone.

And to stay on topic. What about groups that don't have sites and only release their stuff on readers? And then there is Batoto and The Company. Should we kick them off because they are a reader site. Yes, we can all agree that mangapirates are rats and need to die. But to do that, shut up about them. They will die in their own time. Like wolf said, they are doing their own work and MU can hardly kick a group off just because another sub-par group is throwing a hissy fit.

tactics
Post #569397 - Reply to (#569393) by Chaoskitty
user avatar
Is a female
 Member

8:36 pm, Sep 9 2012
Posts: 3396


Quote from Chaoskitty
Like wolf said, they are doing their own work and MU can hardly kick a group off just because another sub-par group is throwing a hissy fit.

Indeed. MU is the neutral in all these spats between scanlators. It's a database for releases. If it's a legit release, it's gonna be on here, no matter how much you may despise that group.
At the end of the day, it's up to the users of this site to choose whether they read the releases or not. I don't see why they shouldn't be given that information though if it's out there and that's what MU is here for.
Some people don't give a shit, some do. Let the users make that decision for themselves.

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User Posted Image
smarts
Post #569403
user avatar
All is in chaos
Member

9:34 pm, Sep 9 2012
Posts: 161


agreed this is nuetral site and a database take your complaints elsewhere. I for 1 like to read the latest chapter ASAP and couldnt care less about what site releases it first.

________________
Chidori
User Posted Image
Dawn_
Post #569522 - Reply to (#569392) by kamochi
Member

8:37 pm, Sep 10 2012
Posts: 7


This isn't about money nor jealousy.

It's more about respect; there is a unspoken rule in scanlation. When we take over a project we usually wait 3 months or talk to the other party before starting.

"We" scanlators aren't doing this for money most us are using our time on this only as a hobby and because we love manga/manwha/manhua.

The same thing happened with aggregated site before. When they started not waiting 24 hours delay on their site. The scanlation world went mad and this is how appeared "Jesus christ page" like Japanzai did everywhere..

What they are doing now is called alienation. I mean talking about mangareader site wasn't MF a good place to hang out before they started replacing the system of contributors..? Now it feels like russian policy.

MU is a neutral party and they shouldn't get involved in all this. But, i think that anyone that have ever been and doing scanlation can only feel sad at how things developped with time. (Come on paid team to do scanlation by mangareader site..?!)

It used to be to fan for fans. Now it's just money as you say. But i personally don't feel jealous at all. Because i still do scanlation with this as a motto and i'd rather stick to myself than run for gold.

wolfinthesheep
Post #569526 - Reply to (#569522) by Dawn_
Member

9:16 pm, Sep 10 2012
Posts: 182


Quote from Dawn_
This isn't about money nor jealousy.

It's more about respect; there is a unspoken rule in scanlation. When we take over a project we usually wait 3 months or talk to the other party before starting.

"We" scanlators aren't doing this for money most us are using our time on this only as a hob ...

Your unspoken rule is non-existent. It gets broken every single day, by plenty of groups that only care about getting credit for the popular series, or by groups that just want to scanlate the stuff they care about.

Where were you when Dynasty-Scans had Pastel "stolen"? Where are you every week when Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, etc. get released by 3 different groups?

That's right, you don't actually care about the "unspoken rule". You just want to mark your territory.

Claudia
Post #569703
user avatar
Member

10:11 am, Sep 12 2012
Posts: 64


This is getting off topic I see

IMHO any scanlation group can scanlate whatever they want ~
If they go by the rules or not that is their problem.

But Im not talking about scanlation groups. Im talking about manga reader sites.
There is a HUGE difference. And to define the difference just to be clear:

--- Scanlators only hosts in their site series that they are working with.
--- Manga reader sites hosts everything (or at least whatever they can get their hands on).


2 scanlators that one of those manga reader sites has taken projects from are now down? Closed shop? (Their urls are not working) Shibo Nabi and Lively Scans. Is this a coincidence?

Also I saw someone mention something about jealousy? When someone is jealous or envy something, they try to copy it or create something that can be antagonistic of it.

So who is jealous and who is not, the facts can speak for themselves I believe.



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wolfinthesheep
Post #570040
Member

4:40 am, Sep 15 2012
Posts: 182


If they don't release their own scanlations, they aren't showing up on MangaUpdates as is, so there is no issue.

If they do release their own scanlations, they deserve to show up here.

In other words, you're either trying to debate a problem that does not exist, or you're essentially whining about Manga Pirates again.

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