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Why Manga Reader Sites Are Not Okay

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mizunosaki
Post #576366
user avatar
Member

5:59 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 182


Recently I started a solo scanlation group. Within 2 months, one of my release get posted in a manga reader site, disregarding my share policy.

I'm aware that people have varying opinion on this, so let me throw in my two cents.

(Mods if this is not allowed please lock it or delete this post)

The scanlation business is a business not powered with money. It’s powered with mutual respect. The readers (a term I prefer better than leechers) respect the scanlators for giving them access to works that they otherwise wouldn’t be able to read/understand. The scanlator respects the artist for obvious reasons.

The biggest question in this debate is: Who has the right?

People who believe in ‘sharing is caring’ main argument is this: ‘Hey, you took the work from the original artist too, didn’t you?’

Let me rebut this really quick. The quick answer is yes. The one who holds the right to the ORIGINAL WORK is the original artist.

But here comes the twist. The one who owns the intellectual property of the TRANSLATION and EDITING is the scanlator.

Meaning that even though the original work is not theirs, they partially own the intellectual right of the translated work.

Whereas unauthorized sharers or leechers do NOT add any to the work, and therefore do not own any rights to the translated work.

I’ll explain this in drawing so it’s easier to understand.

User Posted Image
User Posted Image

Why are Manga Reader Sites (with the exception of Batoto) not okay?

Again, I'll explain this in drawing.

User Posted Image
User Posted Image
User Posted Image
User Posted Image
User Posted Image
User Posted Image
User Posted Image

The morality and ethics of scanlations have been long debated, but I think we can all agree that manga reader sites who squeezed in to profit from the hard work of so many people are the most immoral of all and need to be stopped.

I know this will fall on many deaf ears but this still need to be said.

Last edited by mizunosaki at 8:06 pm, Nov 8

Kaitentsuki
Post #576367
user avatar
Member

6:08 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 831


.....I just have to say those pictures are awesome bigrazz
Explain the situation in a simple and in a neat manner.

Cthylla
Post #576369
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Mythical Creature
Member

6:16 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 169


I only download manga because I don't like waiting for pictures to load, I want to be able to read offline, I like to collect things, and when the whole manga thing becomes illegal I want to have copies of everything still around. ^^

Kaitentsuki
Post #576372 - Reply to (#576369) by Cthylla
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Member

6:35 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 831


The only thing i read from this was....gotta catch them all mangamon! (mangamon sounds cooler ending it with manga would had sounded weird sad )

Wolf6969
Post #576373
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Member

7:07 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 39


I share the same point of view of Cthylla,i like collecting manga (to the point i think i have a mental disorder).Sometimes this sharing sites are the only places where you can find certain works but before i try them i always try to get them from the scanlator site,say "Thanks for the hard work",but if i cant find the manga i am looking there dont expect me to read it online.For people like me its kinda complicated getting on one side of this argument because you really are grateful to scanlators that deliver us all those amazing mangas,but if i cannot download it from your site or mirc channel i am going to some sharing site and get it there,so i am also grateful to the site for having the manga.Both (scanlators and sites) have my full support because in the end the only reason i got the manga i wanted on my hard drive is because the sum of efforts on both sides.

mizunosaki
Post #576374 - Reply to (#576373) by Wolf6969
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7:56 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 182


Quote from Wolf6969
For people like me its kinda complicated getting on one side of this argument because you really are grateful to scanlators that deliver us all those amazing mangas,but if i cannot download it from your site or mirc channel i am going to some sharing site and get it there,so i am also grateful to the site for having the manga.


I'm like you guys, I don't like reading manga online because I hate to wait for it to load.

The sharing issue is a little bit complicated. I mean, my release was readily available (heck it's even posted on MU and people can just download it from mediafire) so it kind of pisses me off that people still go and upload it on manga reader sites.

But what if I restrict the distribution? People are going to think 'Oh, this release is hard to find. Let's share it on reader sites so more people will see it.' I think that's the issue with a lot of groups too.

In the end, you just can't win. :\

My solution is to withhold the intellectual property completely. In other words, to stop scanlating. Granted this doesn't do much for me because I'm just a tiny group, but this seems to be effective for larger groups like harudaki.

User Posted Image

But this way the readers are the one suffering, while the manga reader sites will just profit off some other people :\

MasamiAkane
Post #576375 - Reply to (#576366) by mizunosaki
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Rebel Rebel
Member

7:59 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 1230


Quote from mizunosaki
I know this will fall on many deaf ears but this still need to be said.

Sad, but true.

And what a neat presentation =D

Spoiler (mouse over to view)
The only reason it's become harder to access scanlations from the group themselves (aside from older groups that have disbanded) is because sharing/eader sites started appearing out of nowhere, taking their releases without permission. The more sharing/reading sites pop-up, the more scanlators become private, then the more demand there is for the public reader/sharing sites. It's really a vicious cycle and after the dust clears up only the scanlators lose because no matter how private a scan group may be, someone will always leak it.


But some scanlators get into this business with the mentality of reader sites. Not all of them really do it out of love or respect.

In the end, as a fan, "reader" and semiformer scanlator it's best to learn the language and keep the glory to yourself. Now I need to learn Korean since webtoons seems to be the next best thing in the internets. ヽ(´ー`)┌

Cthylla
Post #576377
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Mythical Creature
Member

8:12 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 169


What annoys me the most though is scanlators that won't let you download, but instead have their own special "reader." This has driven me recently to find a program that lets you rip manga from reader sites. (which is freaking awesome now I can download some older manga that isn't on scanlator sites any more, and certain big manga like one piece biggrin)

mizunosaki
Post #576379 - Reply to (#576377) by Cthylla
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8:22 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 182


Quote from Cthylla
What annoys me the most though is scanlators that won't let you download, but instead have their own special "reader." This has driven me recently to find a program that lets you rip manga from reader sites. (which is freaking awesome now I can download some older manga that isn't on scanlat ...


I know, I feel the same way sometimes. I also don't like scanlators that post their scans only in their own forum, which makes me own like a gazillion of forum accounts O_O;

But still, it's different 'ripping it' and 'ripping it and resharing it'... You know? I mean in your case you're ripping it just for your own use, so no harm no foul. Resharing it is just spitting on the scanlator attempt to control distribution (if the manga is licensed).

And like MasamiAkane said, this is like a vicious cycle.

Quote
The more sharing/reading sites pop-up, the more scanlators become private, then the more demand there is for the public reader/sharing sites. It's really a vicious cycle and after the dust clears up only the scanlators lose because no matter how private a scan group may be, someone will always leak it.


In the end only the scanlators lose. If the scanlators quit, well the readers lose too. I mean I'm fine since I can still read and enjoy it, but not the readers.

oxmemexo
Post #576382 - Reply to (#576377) by Cthylla
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9:03 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 6


Quote from Cthylla
What annoys me the most though is scanlators that won't let you download, but instead have their own special "reader.".


I don't mind this. Isn't that helping out the group? It also prevents people from having the need to "share it" with others and post it on a manga reader sites (other than batoto, since scanlators usually post it there). It's still posted on other sites, but that's a different argument. I actually prefer having it on their site, if possible I will always go straight to the groups website and read it there. That way you're not annoying anyone and you have your manga without any problems.

Not saying that I don't like downloading, I used to be a major downloader, but it's a lot easier to read it on batoto or the scanlators website and I don't have to go through the trouble of zooming in and out.

However, downloading through IRC is something I dislike. So everyone has a different preference haha. Can't make everyone happy.

RS456
Post #576384 - Reply to (#576366) by mizunosaki
Member

9:21 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 207


Quote from mizunosaki
But here comes the twist. The one who owns the intellectual property of the TRANSLATION and EDITING is the scanlator.

Meaning that even though the original work is not theirs, they partially own the intellectual right of the translated work.


From a legal perspective that is not true. For you to even have that right you have to get permission from the original publisher/author. You only own the translation not the translated work and that is only if you get a copywrite for your translation. If a publisher wants to use your translation after that then they have to get your permission.

mizunosaki
Post #576385 - Reply to (#576384) by RS456
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9:32 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 182


Quote from RS456
From a legal perspective that is not true. For you to even have that right you have to get permission from the original publisher/author. You only own the translation not the translated work and that is only if you get a copywrite for your translation. If a publisher wants to use your translatio ...


You're right, that's why I mentioned partial. Perhaps I wasn't being clear. The term copyright is very loosely used these days.This is especially true for adaptive work like doujinshi and fanarts. I mean, in that sense the doujinka and fan artists don't have any right to use the characters and setting, right? They certainly didn't ask the copyright holder permission to adapt a manga into a doujinshi, for example. In that case, isn't Comiket the biggest piracy event ever?

But like I explained in the diagram, the fan artists & doujinka have the intellectual property of the adapted work. Translators own the intellectual property of the translation, which is packaged with the translated work.

In other words, the translator partially own an intellectual property of the translated work.


renseih
Post #576386
ℜeya
Member

9:40 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 191


WELL~ Legally, and if you argue on the intellectual copyrights, I have to say, the translating amounts next to nothing other than getting pissed off. I mean, if you make a fuss out of it, all that's gonna get is have all manga taken down from the internet. But, common sense is to respect the scanlators' wishes.

However, personal opinion is still that there's really no point in banning manga reader sites. They say that the sites makes money off of them... but I really don't care. It's not as if you'd loose money since the scans are free to begin with. And I don't see any organization or whatever actively taking down unlicensed mangas. Technically, posting a manga licensed or not is stealing. And, the best way to prevent stealing a translation is to post it up before someone else does it for you without permission. But, that is just me and not anyone else.

So of course for the best interest of everyone is to respect the scanlators wishes but still have it posted everywhere XD. Wishful thinking... yes.

________________
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Gunzy
Post #576389
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10:08 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 148


i didn't really take the time to read everyone's post, but generally, don't scanlators add pages showing they own the scans?? I understand being upset that someone is gaining money by selling the scans...but if they just host it, what's the big deal? I can understand why watermarks over the scan groups work is annoying...

perhaps scanlators should think of having a reader on their site. if we all downloaded the mangas we read, it'd take up a lot of space. well...that's my opinion.

mizunosaki
Post #576393 - Reply to (#576389) by Gunzy
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11:06 pm, Nov 8 2012
Posts: 182


Quote from Gunzy
i didn't really take the time to read everyone's post, but generally, don't scanlators add pages showing they own the scans?? I understand being upset that someone is gaining money by selling the scans...but if they just host it, what's the big deal? I can understand why watermarks over the scan gro ...


I'll make it simple for you.

1. They do make money from ad revenue. In other words, they make money by distributing contents that didn't come from them.

2. Resharing it is just like spitting on the scanlator attempt to control distribution (the most common example is if the manga is licensed).

3. By hosting the manga in multiple sites, it's harder for the scanlator to monitor what people use their scanlation for.

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