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"Anime/Manga is racist" is a faulty statement

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dae428
Post #598088 - Reply to (#598084) by imercenary
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6:33 am, May 8 2013
Posts: 7


Quote from imercenary
This is a manga site. Talking about movies is already a stretch as it is.

I'm not sure what your point is other than you seem to be making yourself out to be a hypocrite. You say that Asian stereotyping is not alright, but when I bring up the stereotyping of African, Americans and Britons; your r ...


That's not what I was saying.I was just saying I was more personally effected because I was Asian which was why I was prompted to use the example of Asian portrayal in movies as a means to show that racism is everywhere in pretty much all media and that to focus a great deal of effort on specifically anime/manga was a tad bit unnecessary. I didn't say that it was alright that anime/manga had racism against Africans, Americans, and British people. I just mentioned that since people are more inclined to apply stereotypes to what they don't know, Japanese manga artists would be more prone to using these stereotypes when drawing people from foreign places because there aren't many Africans, American, or British folk in Japan to begin with. In sports manga this is usually pretty prevalent.

And I will admit that you're right I should have known better considering this was a manga specific website. Honestly, there's no reason to be so harsh. If you're going to criticize me at least be civil about it.

Scyfon
Post #598092 - Reply to (#597944) by movingstone
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Mome Basher
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7:25 am, May 8 2013
Posts: 3336


Quote from movingstone
Edit: an example of this is Artermis from Young Justice- she is partially Vietnamese, who knew.

Considering it was revealed early on that her sister is Cheshire AKA Jade Nguyen, I thought it was pretty obvious. Hell, her mom's obviously Asian, so there's that too.

The only "Asian" I have a problem recognizing in comic books is Psylocke. Sometimes she's Asian, sometimes she's not :\

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wolfinthesheep
Post #598094 - Reply to (#598067) by dae428
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7:59 am, May 8 2013
Posts: 170


Quote from dae428
I'm just saying that racism is everywhere and to look at a one particular medium and judge it as being racist isn't really all that different from taking a glass and dipping it in the ocean and expecting there to be fresh water in the cup. Also, you should also know that the Japan has a primarily ...

Having been to Japan, Black people are actually surprisingly common. Absolutely no idea what the actual numbers are, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 1%, but I actually saw more Black people than any other non-Asian culture (granted, this was only during a 4 day timeframe). Especially around harajuku.

WarriorKalia
Post #598097 - Reply to (#598092) by Scyfon
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8:37 am, May 8 2013
Posts: 30


Er, before or after she died and got put into an Asian assassin body? I think she was like Captain Britain or something before that.

Scyfon
Post #598098 - Reply to (#598097) by WarriorKalia
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8:58 am, May 8 2013
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Quote from WarriorKalia
Er, before or after she died and got put into an Asian assassin body? I think she was like Captain Britain or something before that.

The general present, so after.

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Shuu-chan
Post #598101
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9:58 am, May 8 2013
Posts: 144


I guess the conclusion to come to is that racism/sexism etc. is prevalent in all forms of media across the world, but that doesn't mean it's okay. To argue the extent to which one country or form of entertainment is racist or who has it worse is to totally miss the point.

Manga/anime isn't inherently racist, but there are times when SPECIFIC manga/anime are. Instead of generalizing and using broad strokes to call anime/manga/Hollywood/American comics racist/sexist/prejudice we should instead hold specific creators accountable for their own actions. If they create something racist it isn't the genre or format that should be criticized, but the creator.

My point is that you can't argue that anime/manga as a whole is racist seeing as there are plenty titles that obviously aren't. Then again, arguing that racism exists in anime/manga is just blatantly stating the obvious. Of course there would be racism in anime/manga because there are racist creators out there. The same as in Hollywood, American comics and across the world. It happens due to a specific creator's prejudice not because of the format as a whole. It's all about how specific people use the format.

imercenary
Post #598117 - Reply to (#598088) by dae428
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1:17 pm, May 8 2013
Posts: 120


Quote from dae428
That's not what I was saying.I was just saying I was more personally effected because I was Asian which was why I was prompted to use the example of Asian portrayal in movies as a means to show that racism is everywhere in pretty much all media and that to focus a great deal of effort on specifica ...


But two wrongs don't make a right. Acknowledging that all media has racism doesn't mean we should only address the racism of our respective cultures.

I'm not trying to be harsh about it, I'm being realistic about it. In the past, the 'violent foreigner' stereotype was based on the country's early experiences in international relations, fine, I get that. But fast forward to today and the 'blonde haired, violent foreign kid' is now an archetype in every genre. Compare that to Hollywood which has spent decades trying to move AWAY from the 'kung fu master-Asian' archetype.

Trying to deflect criticism by saying "you should look at your own media instead" is a straw-man argument. Hollywood is racist, fine, I get that. But you know what? Hollywood is making progress. Manga/anime? It looks like things are getting WORSE.

movingstone
Post #598127 - Reply to (#598026) by wolfinthesheep
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3:49 pm, May 8 2013
Posts: 155


Quote from wolfinthesheep
About the Miss Swan thing, isn't she just acting like an idiot/troll? I'm not really seeing any racial stereotypes involved there. The comedy is that she's being an irritating bitch, not that she's acting like someone in particular. At least, I don't think so...it may be a reference that's just flying straight over my head.


Well, historically, people in blackface acts like idiots which doesn't reflect reality of anyone in particular so are you saying that is right too. How about the Shaman King example that you gave, does he even act like any person in particular?? Like I said black face promote and maintain power inequality within the USA, whereas Miss Swan isn't really.

Quote from Skinny Kazoo
Where do I even start...first off I am not an idiot I know America is not a race and the way Americans are portrayed in this manga shows a lack of understanding of reality, or perhaps he was purposefully doing this


Hmm, what you meant "Americans," because there were plenty of Americans in that series. Second off, I don't call you out as an idiot, I have heard people said about being racist to Americans so I addressed people in general. I am not waiting to people make that stupid point and irritate me.

Quote from Skinny Kazoo
Okay, so I was not talking about the coach, nor does the crime rate for blacks in Illinois have anything to do with my post. Secondly, just because the coach's racism is a "reflection of reality" does not mean it is not racism.


It does in my opinion. Because to me, I have a clear definition of what is racism. That isn't a crime rate, like I already state the crime rate on non violent drug is about the same between blacks/whites. That is the rate of people getting send to prison. No one would think something subtle as that is racism, but it is. And people are so damn blind to it, instead, they waste their energy on holding grudge (like that one black intellect I quote about eyeshield 21) over non issue matter. Hahaha, your second statement make me laugh. So we can't discuss reality at all in manga?? So western movies are ban from making a white dude racist to discuss racism in America??

Quote from Skinny Kazoo
I was merely referring to the ridiculous assertion that Panther was, because he's black, naturally faster. Based strictly on your first definition, this is racism. Refer to chapter 60 where it says something about the super jumping power of the black people...there is no possible way to argue that does not fit definition 1 of racism


Hmm, I already address that about the accuracy of the translation. I gave the example of the afro/black gave you power in One Piece because it make no incoherent sense. But I am no color blind, nor should people are, the NFL is about 65% while the American blacks are but 12.6% in the American population. I already address that in itself isn't racist. Unless, if reality only offer minority that only option as social mobility then it very racist. Also in the heart of the matter, it doesn't fit definition 1. You know in your heart what cases meant race superiority. It isn't so shallow as an observation that a particular race is good as something because both nature/nurture (culture) factors. Superiority as in Hitler believe the white race to be superior. Or the chinese with their Sinocentrism. Yes, I can use Chinese here as opposed to Americans (because Americans is much more diverse in origin in most of the time doesn't share the same cultural identity).

Quote from switchgear
You have it completely backwards. Sexism is way more blatant and in your face in manga, especially shounen with panty shots everywhere, the harem genre as a genre is to say enough, all the girls that are simply there to get accidentally fondled, stripped and abused. Even when it is not harmen or ecchi characters in armour generally wear armour that prioritizes sexuality over practically (Erza, from Fairy Tail). That is not to say Western comics and media are not guilty of the same thing, but to ignore how prevalent it is in manga and anime is just ignorant.


Terrible examples, you gave because it is quite genre specific. Why don't you gave the overall impression. Up course, it if is Shoujo or yaoi, the male nudes would be more prominent. And I bet males get abuse too. But I won't talk about it because, it was merely based on my perception and not anything I research on.

Quote from switchgear
Those people who cry racist for things like Bee though are probably just being stupid, but to say that racism does not exist in all manga and anime is just as stupid... At the same time though you still get manga that adapt Mein Kampf and adapting that book is both racist and even if you want to argue it is not, it is in very bad taste and judgement.


You are losing me now. This thread is for debate, in which people can learn something and change their opinion. Don't gave me general craps, give me specifics. If you think I ignorant of something, give me evidences that I can't absolutely not refute and give in to your premise. I disagree with your second statement that I quoted. People needed to be reminded that Hitler that rise in power isn't the one that killed people, the one that rise in power is a charismatic one. People need to learn from their history. Any charismatic leaders can potentially go down the path of Hitler. People don't vote for horrible person that kill massive amount of people. I just want to point out that my your logic it isn't just racism but also homophobia, prejudice against the disable, etc.

Totally don't understand your NFL thing.

Quote from Suxinn
Racism is defined by most sociologists as, in a nutshell, prejudice + power. And by power, I don't mean physical power, I mean societal/institutional power that has the right to take away your rights, culture, etc..


Thank you, the way some (I meant really minority of) black intellectuals feel disgusted on anime/manga's prejudice is on the same scale as the KKK is just urgghhh making me want to throw up.

Quote from Scyfon
Considering it was revealed early on that her sister is Cheshire AKA Jade Nguyen, I thought it was pretty obvious. Hell, her mom's obviously Asian, so there's that too.


My point being, American comics often portray Asians as just being generic whites with Asian background. I merely restate this as something as read from a forum. But I haven't read enough American comic to say this is true or false. If you are knowledgeable on the subject, Scyfon, enlighten me. (no this isn't sarcasm/I am serious/it always good to learn).

Last edited by movingstone at 3:57 pm, May 8

dae428
Post #598156 - Reply to (#598117) by imercenary
Member

7:42 pm, May 8 2013
Posts: 7


I never said two wrongs make a right in that we should just look at our own culture. You've pretty much been putting words in my mouth since I started posting on this forum. I'm not going to continue telling you my reasoning behind my post since I would just be repeating myself.

I've never really read manga or watched anime that had violent foreign blonde guy with the exception of Hajime no Ippo and that was ages ago. You've never really given actual examples to support your statements. Anyways I'm done with arguing with you. Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to start off with more thought the next time I start posting on forums.

Anyways @wolfinthesheep I had no idea blacks were so common in Japan. That's pretty interesting. Besides Harajuku, where else did you go?

imercenary
Post #598167 - Reply to (#598156) by dae428
Member

9:23 pm, May 8 2013
Posts: 120


Quote from dae428
I never said two wrongs make a right in that we should just look at our own culture. You've pretty much been putting words in my mouth since I started posting on this forum. I'm not going to continue telling you my reasoning behind my post since I would just be repeating myself.

I've never really ...


I'd make a list, but someone already did so.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlondGuysAreEvil

Seriously, at this point you have no idea wtf you're talking about. You're being defensive for the sake of defensive.

movingstone
Post #598229 - Reply to (#598167) by imercenary
Member

7:54 am, May 9 2013
Posts: 155


Quote from imercenary
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlondGuysAreEvil

Seriously, at this point you have no idea wtf you're talking about. You're being defensive for the sake of defensive.


I don't really follow your conversation so I gonna just response to this one post. Is this your example of racism?? HIruma from eyeshield 21?? How is this fit in the definition of racism and power struggle between subordinate vs dominant group?? I don't know something about this makes very little sense because tv troupe usually gather examples to fit the already existing troupe. But within any series, however, there are evil guys that aren't blond and there are evil guys that are blond. There are good guys that are blond, and there are bad guys that are blond. Tv troupe just picked out (let make up an imagine stat) 1 out of 10 blond character that happened to be evil and said well that belong to the tv troupe. >___<

I supposed this is the equivalent to people had try to condemn Disney for being racist by making villains in darker skin tone or more ethnic looking. "Maybe" some of those charges have some point to it. But most of those examples, I think were bullshit.

*In another note, just found an article in which Donald Trump cried racist against Django Unchained lmao*

====================================

Oh and look they even had western movies and animation in that tv troupe. >__<
What are they saying blaming One Piece to be racist for Doflamingo having blond hair confused Sanji, Zeff?? I don't recalled Rob Lucci having blond hair or Crocodile. How about some of those blond hair Kuja ladies?

Quote from imercenary
Yeah and? Africans, Americans and Britons are found in Japan too. Where are the manga portraying them in a non-racist manner? Not all Africans are excellent marathon runners, not all Americans are culturally ignorant and not all Britons are Victorian-style mannered people.


Edit: oh and I believe I already addressed your point on government can legally not hiring anybody they want on one of my previous post. Btw, living in America, boy oh boy, I realize a large population of Americans are culturally ignorant. Usually, I don't care if a country is culturally ignorant because we can't be all perfect. However, in this case, I do. 1st reason, this country is one of the most advanced country in the world. It would do better if we are not so ignorant all of the time. 2nd reason, we love to stick our nose where its don't belong in foreign affair. Gosh, people can't even pinpoint the countries we are at war with on a freaking map. 3rd reason, this whole attitude of "the rest of the world hate us because they are jealous." 4th reason, the system set up that way. Even on the news, we don't cover international news as much. Then there this whole standard of expecting everyone to speak English, and very proper English. I see it all of the time, on Amazing Race. Sometimes some people acted so rude to the locals. And then there this whole internet thing, where one is judge on English skill.

But in my own philosophy, I can totally overlook that. And I think my reasons are just as bullshit as others. And some citizens of every country can just be totally be ignorant. You don't have to pinpoint and blame everything on Japan's manga/anime. Just go around and ask people of all nations about what their perception of Americans. I supposed it is all their fault for being so so so so so racist against Americans. Up course, the answers will not be uniformed.

Last edited by movingstone at 10:07 am, May 9

dae428
Post #598233 - Reply to (#598167) by imercenary
Member

8:34 am, May 9 2013
Posts: 7


Quote from imercenary
I'd make a list, but someone already did so.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlondGuysAreEvil

Seriously, at this point you have no idea wtf you're talking about. You're being defensive for the sake of defensive.


I wasn't going to continue posting on this forum, but since you've been so gracious as to put up evidence and insult me yet again, I may as well respond, for the sake of responding, or this case for the sake of "defensive."

This information is basically stating that blondes are evil in both American and Japanese media. That's pretty interesting, I never really noticed that stereotype before. Anyways, you're main point was that Japan was more racist than America. That's what I perceived anyways. Believe it or not I am well aware of what I'm talking about.

I admit I make mistakes and I try to correct them. However, when you say things like I have no idea what I'm talking about and that I'm saying that Japanese racism is acceptable, then of course I'm going to defend myself. Do you expect to me to just blindly agree with you and take your word as the absolute truth?

If anyone doesn't know what he's talking about its you. You're taking into account my first post even though I clearly mentioned that it was improperly written and did not reflect my main views. In a way it may be me as well. Maybe you understand my current points but disagree with me regardless. I'm guessing that we've gotten of on the wrong foot. I believe Shuu-chan stated what I wanted to say originally best.

In all honesty though I'm having trouble with seeing why you exhibit such hostility from me. I guess in that sense I really don't know what I'm talking about. I'd really like it if you would tell me exactly what about me that disgusts you so much. Is it because I'm Asian? Just kidding. Or am I!!! O_O Yeah I am... But in all seriousness lay it all out on me brother. It's probably best that you PM me your response though. It seems we've gone off-topic enough as is...

Last edited by dae428 at 8:41 am, May 9

Damnedman
Post #598240
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10:44 am, May 9 2013
Posts: 573


This discussion is really bad. Not because of the topic, but because the OP hasn't clarified his definition of racism. The definition posted is the colloquial definition which is basically racism = racial prejudice, meaning having an opinion of a person based on race. In that case, what most of the people, particularly the guy said about black people having big lips manga being racist, is correct. The sociology definition on the other hand is largely ignored, because most people are ignorant of that definition, which is basically racism requires institutional power and privileges not available to the other races. In that case, I would argue if mangakas and editors are the institutional power and they made the conscious decision to depict black people with big lips and felt that is acceptable, then that can be considered racism instead of simple racial prejudice. This is because racism doesn't require a conscious effort to be racist. In the past, western cartoon (I'm talking about the likes of Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck), there have been similar depictions of Native Americans and black people comparable to that second YouTube video. It was considered appropriate back then, but nowadays we consider that to be racist. Similarly, because the mangakas and editors feel it was appropriate to depict black people in the way that they do, that is considered racism because it perpetuates black people in a certain way even if they are ignorant of the fact that it's racist.

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imercenary
Post #598306 - Reply to (#598229) by movingstone
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8:15 pm, May 9 2013
Posts: 120


Quote from movingstone
2nd reason, we love to stick our nose where its don't belong in foreign affair. Gosh, people can't even pinpoint the countries we are at war with on a freaking map.

4th reason, the system set up that way. Even on the news, we don't cover international news as much.


What?

You can't have it both ways. If you're going to cover international news, you're obviously going to encourage people to tell the government to get involved in foreign affairs. What are you talking about?


Quote from dae428
I admit I make mistakes and I try to correct them. However, when you say things like I have no idea what I'm talking about and that I'm saying that Japanese racism is acceptable, then of course I'm going to defend myself. Do you expect to me to just blindly agree with you and take your word as the absolute truth?


In all honesty though I'm having trouble with seeing why you exhibit such hostility from me. I guess in that sense I really don't know what I'm talking about. I'd really like it if you would tell me exactly what about me that disgusts you so much. Is it because I'm Asian? Just kidding. Or am I!!! O_O Yeah I am... But in all seriousness lay it all out on me brother. It's probably best that you PM me your response though. It seems we've gone off-topic enough as is...


No, I hope that you're reasonable to understand the difficulties of recognizing the racism within your own culture. All cultures have that problem, some just deal with it better than others... (Remember when there was anti-"Arab" racism after 9/11? Man, that was bad.)

Na, I have no hostility towards you. I just find that you're almost willfully ignorant based on the fact that you keep asking for "evidence" of blonde racism in manga/anime when a simple Google search would find several lists.

And why should blonde men get all the hate? Heres the female version of that list : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlondesAreEvil

Last edited by imercenary at 8:37 pm, May 9

dae428
Post #598308 - Reply to (#598306) by imercenary
Member

8:47 pm, May 9 2013
Posts: 7


Quote from imercenary
No, I hope that you're reasonable to understand the difficulties of recognizing the racism within your own culture. All cultures have that problem, some just deal with it better than others... (Remember when there was anti-"Arab" racism after 9/11? Man, that was bad.)

Na, I have no hostility towards you. I just find that you're almost willfully ignorant based on the fact that you keep asking for "evidence" of blonde racism in manga/anime when a simple Google search would find several lists.


Quote from dae428
I admit I make mistakes and I try to correct them. However, when you say things like ...


I do recognize the racism in both Japanese and American culture. To be honest I just posted my first response without even looking at the posts before mine. Its kind of funny considering that your first post was pretty much the gist of what I wanted to say when I started in that racism is everywhere in both Japanese and American media. Anyways, I overreacted a bit. So I apologize for that. I hate to admit it, but I do have a habit of taking somethings too personally and I do often write things tactlessly as well.

Anyways. That whole evil blonde thing is pretty interesting. I figured for blonde girls it was always just the ditzy, dumb stereotype... I am curious as to why you feel that manga/anime racism is more prevalent than Hollywood racism. Unless you don't... Then my mistake.

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