First of all, your meaning is kind of unclear so I apologize if I am misinterpreting my response.

Secondly, by the literal word-for-word definition of the statement of racism definition one, that quote from chapter 60 (I can read Japanese and the idea in Japanese is the same as the translated version) fits it perfectly. Yes, I understand the difference in racism and prejudice. Yes, I understand that hitler is also a perfect example of race superiority. Hitler believed white people were superior. Panther's grandma seems to believe that the black people have some superior physical abilities that are gifted to them by merit of their birth. These two beliefs manifest different results, but the concepts bare bones are the same. I understand too why you quoted those stats for non-whites in the NFL, but that is irrelevant information, there are blacks, whites, native americans, and other people of mixed heritage in the NFL and they are all top of the line athletes. There are several strings of line-ups in the NFL, for all you know by that data, a goodly percentage of that 65% could be third and fourth stringers. If you wanna throw stats at me, come back with something that: A. is relevant and B. is detailed enough to convey your point

Lastly, I did not mean a manga cannot discuss reality; what I meant was that the coach was both a reflection of reality and racist. The author was portraying what he understood about racism in America in this part. There is racism in manga and anime, just as there is prejudice and stereotyping. As a form of media, it is inevitable that these things are present, as they will directly reflect the author's opinion on many different matters. Whether the author is purposefully portraying racism (the white coach using his racial status to beat Panther down) or the author is actually expressing racist beliefs doesn't matter, both forms are apparent in manga just like in Hollywood and other major entertainment providers.

________________
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
-Oath of the Night's Watch, A Song of Ice and Fire

Then this is rather simple. Which definition matters? The definition that people are not "ignorant" in is so so water down that everything seemingly offensive is racism. This is like if one disagree on Israel/Palestine issue, then one would be call islamphobia and or racist against Jewish people. If racism is so water down, the political correctness would prevent any sort of debate on a lot of controversial topics.



Many posters in this thread have opposite views of me, but I respect them because they are making intellectual arguments that I could see from their point of view. But you sound kinda intellectual lacking. Those statements are both fact. And since you cannot make the intellectual connection, I will happy to help you since you are extremely naive. Government's involvement in foreign affairs has very little to do with the people. But it is up to the people to hold government accountable. It is up to the citizens to be inform and to know what their government is doing. It is up to the people to hold the news institution and the government institution to be accountable. Watching international news doesn't equate to government getting into foreign affairs. I wonder what level is your education to make such false logical equivalent. Does learning about slavery equivalent to endorsing slavery?? You make a lot of logical fallacies that I think replying to you is rather pointless. Also sticking one's nose in another affair isn't necessary bad. It is bad if the citizens that made the government accountable is so ignorant and brain wash that they endorse things that seemingly opposite to all the values that they are standing for in blind patriotism.



So here is the deal, since I am unsure on what you feel is racism, I will list some of the options here:

1) It is racist for the mangaka to think that black grandma would think that blacks are physical superior. So would the grandma is racist in this instance and not the mangaka.
2) It is racist for the mangaka to think that blacks are physical superior.
3) This stereotype some how would constitute and perpetuate racism.
4) A popular series Game of Thrones is set on a very sexist world. Is the author sexist? Or the people that he portraying is sexist?

The closest I feel to what you are talking about is the Asian model minority perception. That by itself, I don't think is racism. But it became racism when social institution practice such perception to discriminate against Asians, for example, Ivy league school limited Asian students because they feel that this minority group can be successful on their own. Like I already state in my previous post, I don't think making an observation of blacks has better physical traits due to their cultural values, genetic, and other nature/nurture factors, in itself isn't racism. It would be racism, if using such an explanation to argue why blacks are better and should be use as physical labor and or justified slavery. Or using such explanation to limit how many blacks can be in the NFL. Or even perpetuate the myth that the only way for blacks to be able to afford university is via sport scholarship. Those are racism in my mind.

I won't go into details, because what you are saying also has absolutely no facts to base on. Maybe if you give me some stats, then I would happily to agree with you.

For the last part of your post, the title of this thread was meant to incite conversation. I don't think manga/anime is immune to racism. But often, I feel claims that x, y, z is racist is more of a reflection on people's ignorant of what racism meant.



Last edited by lambchopsil at 11:05 pm, May 9 2013

Okay, now I understand you and I can agree with that completely. This was what I was trying to prove (after I got off of Panther) to you coincidentally.

As far as Panther's grandma goes, what is being portrayed is racism (which I think you just agreed to). I can also agree with you on the fact that I have no idea whether that was a reflection of the mangaka's beliefs or his intention to portray racism. (I was arguing on this one point, stats really do not come into play, I was just comparing a statement in the manga to the first definition you provided)

I find it funny that this whole conversation was based off of my assumption from the title that you were saying that manga/anime is not racist. I was trying to convince someone of something when said person already believed what I was trying to prove...wow

________________
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
-Oath of the Night's Watch, A Song of Ice and Fire

I guess you just pass every example that does not fit into your argument as terrible. You go on about accepting the other view if we give examples (which we have) but then you dismiss them as irrelevant or terrible. Fairy Tail (which is a very popular series) is full of sexism and those skimpy armour outfits I mentioned.

It's not just harems that do it and by the way Shounen is probably one o the largest genres. Your demands are impossible to meet because of the differences in manga. If sexism is something common in the shounen genre which it is as mentioned in my above examples of skimpy armour, the sexual abuse for no reason and exploitation of female characters simply to get better ratings for the manga then it is apart of manga. You can't simply exclude it as one genre because your argument is that it does not exist in manga (the same for racism (such as shenhua in Black Lagoon who is put down by Revy quite often for her accent, not to mention the fact that she is given that accent when most other characters are not given phonic accents). Shounen and its ecchi and harem subgenres are apart of manga and if it exist there then it exists in manga. It does not have to exist in every series and in every genre to exist. I've read a lit of Shounen, Shoujo and other simialr genres and naked men are not that common in Shoujo (Yaoi is hentai/porn so you can't use that as an example) nor is the exploitation of males as you make a slight hint at. If you want another example how about Bleach. It is not ecchi or harem but even there the mangaka exploits female characters by their clothing choice such as Harribel or Nel's adult form.

My NFL thing is that they take the best players (at least now) regardless of race. The lack of players of Asian descent as you want to point out is because the best athletes in Asian countries play sports that are popular and the most financially beneficial in their country, like soccer or baseball. Football is the popular sport in the US, so their best athletes play football, so there is more Americans. Just like hockey is the most popular sport in Canada so our best athletes play hockey. Star athletes that would make things like the NFL are generally naturally gifted in sports and probably could play most sports successfully is what I am saying. If football was the most popular sport in China or Japan or Korea (or any other East Asian country) and paid the way the NFL pays then there would be more players from those countries in the NFL, instead things like soccer and baseball pay more so those naturally gifted athletes will lean towards those sports as those are the ones pushed in schools and the like when they are kids.

In regards to the Hitler thing. History books can teach us not to repeat the mistakes of men like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Franco, etc. There is no need to adapt such a book like Mein Kampf to try to make a profit. In doings so the person adapting it either likes/supports the book or thinks that there is a large enough demographic that will buy the book and make them money is using the suffering and tragedy of millions of people, including an entire people to make a profit.

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Banana Gecko!!

[B]

Hmm, I think maybe you didn't follow the conversation. A lot of people give a lot of great point especially on the black face. That person almost convince me but not quite.



Okay?? In Berserk, Guts get rape. In series like Gantz, etc, males or females are getting brutally kill while being naked.




And to that I reply, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtzlKJ1dObU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NqRG88E-s8

And I believe reverse harem is quite common too. How about Fruit Basket and the number of guys getting naked??

Hmm, your NFL thing make no sense in regard to just black and white by comparing the actual population to the actual representative in the NFL.



I am an American. I passed the citizenship test. And one of my most valued right is anti censorship. You have the right to your opinion regarding the subject and I believe the people who buy that stuffs will disagree with you. I have no interest to read such and buying such, but I will defend their right to do it to the death.

You make no sense. You speak rhetoric, but do not realizes that they may have the right to say it, but that does not mean it is not racist. Also, your right to free speech was never and is not a right between two individuals but between the People and the State. You have a right to free speech thus the state can't censor you (intended as you can't be punished by the state for bad mouthing the state). And even if you have the right to anti-censorship adapting and trying to profit off a tragedy that resulted from Mein Kampf is just wrong.



Okay here you obviously don't know the the difference between my examples and what you are trying to argue. Guts gets raped which is sexual abuse but it is not the exploitation of woman or even men for that matter, it is a plot element and I've never read Berserk but I assume it is relevant to the plot, maybe pushes the plot or is a key to some trauma or reasoning to his character. There is no reason in a series like To-Love Ru for the main character to trip down stairs and happen to catch a girl's panties while he is falling and pulling them down or to grab a breast or for a panty shot. Or in bleach for a swordswoman to wear a top that is so short you can see the bottom of her breasts That is sexism and that is sexual exploitation. Getting killed in the nude is not sexual harassment or exploitation.

My entire point so far has been to say that a statement like racism is not in manga or anime and then to compare it to the media of the US is wrong. If even one example of racism exists in one manga or one anime then you cannot use that argument.

For me at least this quote by Shiny Kazoo sums up what I am trying to argue.


Id i have been unclear it is because I don't really want to waste my time going through all the anime and manga I've read and watched to pick out specific examples that pass your standards. Arguing with you is like arguing with the Westboro Baptist Church, you don't see reason and you don't see the other side of the argument.

Also, I have not seen an example from you that is current and not from the 1960s. Racism is everywhere even today in both Japanese culture including manga and in Western media. To assume that it does not exist or to simply make excuses for it when it does come up is blind ignorance.

In your original argument your examples are incredibly vague and to say that criminals come form all sorts of backgrounds is dismissing the fact that every manga is different and they can not be lumped together in one over reaching umbrella. One villain or one hero or one background character can be racist and just because in another manga the villain is white or Japanese or a woman or a man or etc etc (even in the same story) does not mean that character is not either racist themselves or a racist/prejudice/stereotypical portrayal. I'll use your example of Bee, he talks in bad rap and looks kind of like a gangster and thus he can be considered a character developed on poor stereotypes, but not necessarily racist as it is not a discrimination. If Bee happened to be a thief, lazy, a run away father, etc as well then it would be racist. That being said the inclusion of other characters like the Third Raikage does not mean that Bee or characters that alone might be racist or based on prejudice or created solely from stereotypes are still not racists. Having a character (and this is now just a generic example and not Bee) that has black skin, acts like a stereotypical gangster and is a criminal and maybe even a runaway father, but also having a character with the same skin colour that is just a normal character or a class president (for an example) does not mean the first character is not racist.

Racism exists in manga and anime though in nearly all cases when it exists it tends to be subtle because of the demographic that tends to be mangaka (more liberal minded people). There will always be outliers as with all media. Manga and anime especially benefit (at least for us westerners) from been a more recent media so it has befitted from the more liberal mindedness of Western culture (and yes Japan is for the most part considered part of Western culture) that has been evolving in the last 30 years. I'm sure if you looked at much older manga or just older Japanese literature and maybe even anime I would bet on their being a a few stark examples (maybe even a number of them) of racism just as there are when you go back 40 or 50 years in American cartoons and literature.



Your first example does not make much sense. It is just a crappily dubbed character kind of following the angry black man stereotype.

Your second example is for a swimming show, so of course they would be in swim trunks and it is obviously aimed at girls and yet they are not in sexually suggestive positions just for the hell of it like most openings for the ones that sexually exploit women.

I've seen some reverse harem anime and I've read and watched fruits basket and I've never seen the type of things that I mentioned happen to boys in those. Fruits Basket only had guys naked when they transformed which is a plot device. If they turn into animals, many of them turning into anime either bigger than them or bigger smaller than them their clothes would either fall off or rip. They can't just appear in clothes again. People would bitch about the accuracy and where the clothes come from. If Fruit's Basket was one of those anime and manga that do the things I mentioned in my previous posts then the main character would have touched them inappropriately when they transformed in their arms or they would come back in sexually stimulating positions or they clothes would be ripped in bad places for no reason. And when the guys in Fruits Basket transform and become nude the more sensitive parts (the lower half) are always hidden off panel or by the way the character is drawn because it is not a focal point of the manga or that scene for the readers to see the characters naked, while in the manga I mention that is the intention to draw better ratings.

Last edited by lambchopsil at 11:06 pm, May 9 2013

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Banana Gecko!!

[B]

Did you ignore my point that even by the sociology definition, manga/anime can still be considered racist? I'm not arguing which definition is correct; I'm arguing that even by the sociology definition, depicting minority races in a negative light is considered racism, not just racial prejudice. Since the publishers and writers hold institutional power, prejudice against a race can be considered to be racism. The way that black people are often depicted in manga is racist, especially if that's what most people in Japan consider to be normal, since that means such beliefs are entrenched within their society.

You can find it wrong, you can cry about it because your feelings were hurt, doesn't mean it should be taken off the shelf, know what I mean?

No, I think I addressed your point. Personally, I see that is a legitimate view of reality (your view that is). However, in case by case basis, I still disagree with a lot of what people considered as racist. Because a lot of these people's definition of racism seemed so water down that it is equivalent to man's nature is violent or the sky is blue. I meant that kinda make it into a non issue matter. Look at this thread, a lot of people here condemn manga is racist and yet they continue to support it via their action. What good is that? By having a clear definition of racism, people then can have a clear goal of what they can achieve.

Switchgear- I think we derail this thread way way too long, if you want go and create a sexist thread. I won't participate but after this post, I won't reply to your sexism stuffs any longer. As a logical person with eyes and ears, I see the examples of what supposedly "sexploitation." However, my progressive philosophy had always been against sexual repression. It seemed your solution is to eliminated them altogether for equality. Whereas, I see it as "more and more" and "more male nudes" to make it more equal (up course age appropriate). You seemed to have a limit view too. Yaoi for example doesn't necessary is porn. Yaoi is just male love romance. And since I don't think you are actively seeking it out (I assume you are a heterosexual male) then you are not necessary an expert on that stuff.

Furthermore, you seemed to not get the point of the vids. Hmm, one vid, I totally dismiss your accent non issue matter. Black Lagoon is trying to be realistic and it succeed in some aspects and failed in many others. And I just took it at that. The swimming vids, do you think that is aim for guys Really Who do you think is the main audience for such a show?? And since I already addressed on yaoi romance vs yaoi porn. I am done with that.

As for Mein Kamf, I think you misunderstood my position. I disagree with you as for the author's main motive. I disagree with you on the purpose of the adaption. I disagree with you on what appropriate and what not appropriate of learning from he past. And finally, if this book is indeed for a racist agenda, then I will agree on the racist aspect of it but I damn well disagree on censorship. You made so many assumptions you can't prove.

Okay, so now I addressed the heart of your view.



Hmmm, I totally don't get what you are saying here. Do you think I personally believe that manga/anime is immune to racism?? Nah, I am not that much of an idealist. But I disagree with the cases people brought up as racism. And why wouldn't I cannot compare to the USA, you were the first person derail this thread (I think) by bringing up sexism. And I merely brought up American comics for that. I am a feminist, not a feminazi. I grew up in a very androcentric society where my dad beats my mom and I watch that on my bed at the age of 4. I often very much agree with third world country feminists, and I agree with the core values of western feminists. But often, I found these western feminists as nothing more than privilege people who whine too much.

I do see the other side of the argument, but it is different. I can compare it as one think the moon emits light whereas I see it as the moon is reflecting light from the sun. Also, I found your Westboro Baptist Church comparison amusing, as a gay person who is coming from a very low income class (from a third world country) and is a first generation immigrant in the USA, and as a rape victim to multiple count of rape by various person. To me, a lot of these controversies are non issues. Because I experienced real issues.



Isn't that diversity?? Hahahaha.... Man, look like I am fundamentally disagree with you. So is this some sort of selective out-spurt of racism?? So minority can't do no wrong?? You can't depict a black, asian, gay person as evil, and as criminal in all circumstances??

Oh please, I am not going too far into the past. Because that is an entirely different world back then. Racism is real and is everywhere. What is the point of saying the sky is blue and the grass is green.

Lastly, up course, manga that for females isn't so blatant as the one for males in term of nudes. That is the effect of cultures, men and women want different sort of fantasy. This is reflective on what males and females want to buy and also the way the mangaka portrayed things.

Like I said, I don't found it as sexist nor do I found the current reality is quite the ideal reality. More male nudes should be the solution lol. I would hate if people actually waste resources to tone down the sexual-ness in manga because it feel like something a conservative would do. And I think you could find a lot of common ground with Westboro Baptist Church. *just kidding*

There's a BIG difference between a character being sexy/sexual and being sexualized/objectified. Go look it up. As for your magical solution... well, I completely disagree with it but I won't dwell into that.
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Wow, first you say

And then

Despite you having suffered the consequences of patriarchy and its sexist, women-hating culture, you use the word "feminazi"and claim that western feminists do nothing but whine. I don't get your line of thought.


The problem is that minorities are barely represented, and when they are, the characters are just big stereotypes as opposed to the vast diversity we can find in white characters in western media and Japanese characters in Japanese media.
So yeah, having a black character be an angry person/gangster IS racist as long as there's not enough diversity of portrayals.


There's no difference between what opposite genders like, they can like any kind of thing. Men and women aren't born with a brain programmed to like this and that.
Men can like romance and drama while women can like action and gore. But the media doesn't think so, they keep making things aimed at men or women, assuming they can only like that kind of stuff. That's bullshit.

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http://fah-web.stanford.edu/teamstats/team79419.html

I cant say anything about it being racist, BUT they do see thinks based on their perceptions and their culture... ya cant say thats being racist tho.