So here's the thing: what do you think is the meaning of cliche, specifically in manga, which has its own way to be so...

I wonder cause is clear that giving the word it's comon, despective use, no one likes a story that he/she considers cliche, but some times happens that there are stories full of "cliche ideas" that are considered good or that one considers good.

I think that this may be due to how people use the word, giving it the meaning of something that is not original on one side, or something that is repeated in a lot of stories on the other. If you think it in this second way, there are stories that have cliche elements, but are still original in the way those elements are put, so maybe in the end one wouldn't call them cliche.

so... it think a story is not cliche for its contents, but for the way they are writen/narrated/ilustrated... do you disagree, agree...? can you think of any example?

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I completely agree with you.
Sometimes it pains me to see good mangas that are being ignored or have bad reputation just because a bunch of people call them cliched. The thing is, cliched elements such as falling in love with the popular guy or being bullied by the popular girls in the class can be treated in an annoying way or in a great way. Right now I'm thinking of Strobe Edge. Ninako fell in love with Ren, who was very popular with girls, and there was a scene (maybe... I hope my mind didn't make this up) in which some fangirls of Ren tried to bully her. But it was alright! The manga showed it in a non-annoying way and it was still a great story.

Another example, maybe more drastic, is the one of Ookami Shoujo to Kuro Ouji. This manga is FULL of cliches. I mean, FULL OF THEM. And I still like it, because somehow the characters are well presented and even though the themes are more than typical it still gives a fresh vibe. But it's sad to see so many people hating it just because the theme is cliche.

So... Yeah, a story is cliche not because of its contents, but for the way it is written. If it's original, if the characters are well developed, they can face cliched situations and still be fresh and great.

Yes, that is exactly the reason for me writing this.

I dont know other people, but sometimes it happens to me that I find someone saying that x manga is cliche, but even though i understand what they mean, i cannot agree with them, because i dont think is cliche if the caracters take their decisions in a way that, even being a predictable choice, makes that path taken be theirs, and not something that came out to be just because it had to, for the sake of the story.

I think that is what usually happens to cliche stories: that it doesn't matter who the character was, but just what is happening to him/she... when a character gets lost in the repetitive plot around him/her, thats when i think the story is cliche.

ò.o

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I think that what makes a manga cliche is not exactly the same ideas being repeated and reused, but on how they are handled.
So for example, shy/awkward/mousy girl falls for cool/popular guy is used ad nauseum, but...there's some stories where it takes a slightly different approach that takes the story away from just that premise.
Example:
Eensy Weensy Monster, the girl is not quite shy/mousy, but she's not the popular one, she's average, and she eventually falls for the school's "prince". There is a bullying scene, or would be, if the author had not made it that the main girl is so adorable that her would be bullies decided to "protect" her.
There's also Fruits Basket, for a long time, people weren't sure if there was going to be a Yuki/Tohru pairing, in theory the cliche was there, but in the end, Natsuki Takaya went a different direction.

All stories have some cliche in them, it's unavoidable, but it seems that while some stories use the basic cliche premise and grow from it, some seem to just want to waddle in the cliche.

I don't like a lot of shojo because I hate the way the romances are handled, or the way the main females are portrayed.
A cliche I can think of in shojo is dumb/naive, but extremely happy/kind girl, and she may or may not be boy crazy and wanting a boyfriend so badly that nothing else matters.

More for how the cliches are written then the actual use of them. Try to imagine a story you know that DOESN'T have a cliche of some sort. Girl falls in love, etc. Cliche's don't make a story bad, per se, it's the overuse of them. Sometimes I just see cliche after cliche and the author doesn't try at all.

I'll use Game of Thrones for an example, because I'm reading it now (no spoilers lol!) The Queen is corrupt. How many stories have a corrupted female monarch in them?? I know I've read dozens. But it doesn't mean Game of Thrones is cliche or bad, necessarily. How about the fact that the Stark kids find themselves Direwolves in the beginning of the story, one for each of them. Sound a little sue-ish? It does to me!
Harry Potter --> Downtrodden boy finds out he's special and has magical powers and is the "chosen one". Sue-ish! But Rowling made it work.

A story with a predictive plot or familiar plot devices always have the opportunity to be written well, it's all up to the author!

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A rule of thumb is that everything will have cliches. What makes a series distinguish themselves from the cliches is how well you develop your characters, and how well you build your world.

To me, cliche is subjective rather than objective. It's only cliche when you've already consumed enough stories with the same plot progression to name it cliche and even then as Saons pointed out they can be tweaked in little ways to make it seem unique.

Hataraku Maou-sama has a lot of cliche but it's the most enjoyable anime for me this season because of the little ways the author made them work

So its the way the plot is handled rather than the plot itself, isn't it

Its kind of imposible to write something absolutly new. Humanity is always humanity, but it never gets boring to talk about it.
I think its great when i read a manga with a cliche idea that turns out to be original for one reason or another, and i think that's hard to achieve.

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I call a mange cliche when it is generic. I don't mind manga having similar basic theme as as long as there is originality, but some manga are basically the same story but with different names. And I mean exactly the same; the plot line and the character's personalities. I see this most often in shoujo school romances, but judging from comments I can imagine it is also pretty common in yaoi and yuri as well, and possibly shounen school sports. A manga that you forget the moment you finish reading it, where none of the characters stick out, and you would be hard pressed to tell it from other similar manga. That is cliche to me.

This obviously applies to any story, regardless of medium, and, as others have pointed out, having a common theme doesn't equate a bad story. (I love fantasy and pretty much every fantasy novel going draws inspiration from Tokein. That doesn't make those that follow him bad or cliche.) Similarly, a highly original premise isn't always good (though I really can't imagine anyone being able to come up with a plot that has absolutely no cliches in it at all.)

Last edited by CuthienSilmeriel at 9:53 am, Jun 22 2013

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I guess it's just something that does everything completely cut and paste with no charm to it. Like putting a tsundere character in the series and doing nothing with the archetype not even trying to turn her from tsun to dere. Though, there are some "elements" that make people moan every time they see it, not just in manga, but in every entertainment medium. Misunderstandings and Love Triangles do it for me. They can be creative with it and put depth to it so we can't really call them "cliches", but even then it usually pisses me off every time they do it mostly because of all the time they didn't do anything creative and meaningful to it.