It wasn't directed at you, since you're being rather calm about the whole thing. Someone else said it somewhere before (still can't be bothered to quote though).

I honestly believe it's simply a matter of perspective. Just as much as I'm interpreting this poll in a non-offensive way, others are seeing it the other way round. There's probably no right or wrong, we're simply convinced of our own point of view.

Anyway, I didn't mean to offend anyone here, I just didn't like the way some people were talking here (no, not directed at you )

Ecchi? The poll isn't sexist, you are. Bust size is important factor in character design. Stereotypes are important in manga, it's not prejudice. With appearance you bring out the personality. You can argue that breast size is irrelevant to personality, but it's the same for hairstyle, clothing and, really, appearance in general. That's stereotyping, it's generalisation and it's not always right but that's beside the point. And that is wrong by the way—appearance is not irrelevant to personality.


And here's another sexist. You think that based on what? There is absolutely nothing to indicate that except your own prejudices. You seem to think that only because you want to.

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Are you saying that big and small breasts are not realistic? Wow, surely you must be a misogynist.

What you chose is in the end your own personal idea of the character's appearance and this is exactly why this poll is relevant.

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Objectification of women is so common I suppose it must be a shock to see it called out, but the problem with this type of poll is also the "average" choice. What people mean by average is completely different from person to person and depends on our surroundings and how we've been socialized to view women and what the "average" woman looks like.

Unfortunately, extremely harmful images what the average woman looks like permeate, particularly american, culture. The "average" representation given us on TV has increasingly thin women with increasingly larger boobs with figures that aren't available to most women without resorting to plastic surgery and/or extreme dieting, which often leads to severe eating disorders. Women's lower sense of self-esteem often comes from comparing themselves to an impossible "average" standard that just can't exist for most of us.

And the objectification of women is mainly disregarding the personal and intellectual abilities and capabilities of women, and reducing a woman's worth or role in society to that of an instrument for the sexual pleasure that she can produce in the mind of another.

Though notable exceptions exist, historically women have been valued mainly for their PHYSICAL attributes.

Billions of dollars are invested in making women unhappy with their bodies so they'll buy more and more products to meet an "average" standard that is never meant to be reached.

The repeated objectification of women, makes our bodies something to be consumed and stared at by men, and polls like this are a part of how society polices women's bodies to fit into a male accepted "average."

Men literally see women as objects to be used, it has been scientifically proven that the part of their brain activated when viewing a sexualized image of a woman is the same part that activates when they're about to use a tool. The reverse is not true. Men CANNOT be objectified, even by women who see sexualized images of men. Those men are still seen as HUMAN.

Standards for men are power fantasies set up by other men, and are often achieved with a little extra time at the gym lifting weights to gain muscle mass.

Standards for women are also fantasies set up by men, and are achieved through surgery, starvation, make-up, fashion, skin-care products, hair-care products, and a little extra time at the gym slimming down, but not building up too much muscle lest we become too masculine.

Polls like this are unacceptable because, yes anime and manga women aren't real, but they do represent images of real, though often idealized, women. And this poll is basically encouraging men to control/validate/make commentary on women's bodies, even if they are fictional, in an objectifying manner.

Yes decisions like this have to be made when drawing women, but this poll has one woman representing all women. Hence "a female character," thus the voting ends up representing what all women "should" look like. What people, particularly men, prefer.

I'm not saying mostly men vote on this poll. I'm also not saying this poll is going to drastically change a young woman's mind and make her think she should adjust her breast size to placate people on this site that she's never seen. This is just one of many thousands of influences young women will be subjected to.

This poll is what is called a micro-aggression. Micro-aggressions based in misogyny are brief and commonplace daily verbal, behavioral, or environmental indignities, whether intentional or unintentional, that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative gendered slights and insults towards women.

So while it most certainly isn't the most horrible of all sexist sins, it is still something that shouldn't be encouraged and it is still something that is demeaning towards women.

Why some of us get so angry about micro-aggressions is because it's something that we deal with on a daily basis. This shit builds up over time and becomes intolerable after a while. I've lost patience and the ability or the desire to be kind to those who take part in and support shit like this. The legitimate anger and frustration that I feel at constantly being dehumanized has reached its limit.

I've been up for the past 48 hours so i'm not sure how much sense this makes, but damnit I'm tired and no longer care.

Last edited by cowsrawesome at 6:02 pm, Nov 7 2013

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There is a scientific average breast size for adult humans which varies by ethnicity, look it up.



Thank you for this insightful, differentiated and sophisticated opinion that is totally not generalizing at all.



Actually these standards are set up by other women. It's well known that most men don't care if women wear make up, fancy clothes or hairstyles. They do it to compare themselves to other females.



No it does not. It's just your paranoia.


I don't see how your ramblings about sexism have anything to do with this poll at all. But I can honestly say every true feminist should be embarassed at the hateful shit you're writing in the name of feminism.

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1. Socially perceived "average" and literal average are too very different things. The literal average size of every woman in america is size 14, but I don't see that represented in any media as the image we should strive for and I highly doubt a poll about what a woman's size should be with an "average" option would mean size 14 to many people either.

2. This is actually a scientific fact that men and women are socialized to see women as objects. There have been numerous psychological tests done to prove this shit. The brain literally functions differently when seeing images of sexualized men and women. Look it up on your own. You have access to google.

3. Internalized misogyny is a thing, but men are the ones who run the media in the majority that idealizes women in a certain way. This is really basic 101 shit.

4. This poll is objectifying even if people don't interpret it that specific way.

5. I've never once said I was a feminist. That was the label you used. I'm just a woman who doesn't like being objectified by random men, either on the streets or on the internet. If expressing an opinion on why I don't think women should be treated as objects makes me a feminist in your eyes, and feminism has a negative connotation, then that says much more about you than it does about me.

Last edited by cowsrawesome at 8:44 pm, Nov 7 2013

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Honestly, there's nothing wrong with this, but what you're doing is saying that you see shit that isn't there in the first place. You've even said it yourself.

So you're pretty much saying people who have no problem with this poll are assholes, just because they don't see things the way you do. Just because they're not reading so far in between the lines, that you start seeing things you think is there.

You've made decent, and valid points in you posts, yes - but they have, as much as you want them to be, nothing to do with this topic.

There isn't anything wrong with feminism. It's just when suddenly EVERYONE's the bad guy for not seeing the non-existent things that you see. If the term feminism brings any sort of negative connotation, then I'd say "arguments" like these is a major factor to it.

Last edited by Scyfon at 12:08 am, Nov 8 2013

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I never said that people who have no problem with this poll are assholes. Stop putting words in my mouth. I think the guy who thought up this poll in the first place is an asshole (seriously, just check out the original proposal) and the person who decided it would be appropriate for this site is an asshole. I think the people using this poll as another excuse to reinforce stereotypes of women are assholes too, whether or not they're male or female. Anyone writing misogynistic bs is also probably on my shit list.

But, I don't care too much about those who honestly believe the poll is innocent in intent, though I do think they're being a bit deliberately obtuse, I don't mind too much.

Clearly other women have been made uncomfortable by this poll. I'm not the only one "reading so far in between the lines." Even if I were, with how we have been socialized, classifying women by boob size is objectifying no matter how you look at it.

Objectification reinforces a lot of other nasty behavior that I've personally encountered and don't like. Thus I wrote my piece.

You guys are the ones bringing "feminism" into it, again. I understand why, it's a term that you can easily use to write off any woman who does anything other than shutting up and smiling prettily as an "angry feminist" who clearly has nothing of import to say. It's a very easy cop out. But like I've pointed out before, nowhere do I ever mention being a feminist to begin with.



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Your "mainly" seems very biased. I'm not talking about exceptions either. In different periods and regions women have had different roles and values. Same for men. Of course there have been times when what you say is true.


That's just marketing. And what you're talking about is only products related to appearance. And it's in no way unique to women either.


Here's another very prejudiced view on what the male population thinks is average. I really doubt men think of popular actors and models in advertisement to be "average". All you say seem very biased and sexist.


This is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Scientifically proven? Those "scientific" tests are very doubtful to say the least. You can get any results you want on statistics, and everyone believes the ones they want. Saying "it's scientific fact" doesn't prove anything. It's a scientific fact that earth is flat.


The only ones who have so far given any indication of any sexism is you and a couple others with similar views. You make a problem where it doesn't exist for you own satisfaction—simply because you want to believe there is one.


Another comment that is based on nothing but personal bias. You can make it sound however you like. As I've pointed out the original question went along the lines: "you're about to enter a manga as a female character".


She never said feminism has negative connotation, she said people like you give it one. And it's true. It's a scientific fact.

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Far-off places with sweet sounding names.

sorry sweetie, but you legitimately believe in reverse sexism. there's not much I can ever do for you.

That's just a sad fact.

You can look all this shit up on your own if you like, but I doubt you will. Hell, even if you did, I'm not sure it'd do any good. Your "personal bias" based in literally nothing other than opinion is cute, but not conducive to intelligent conversation. I've studied this shit for years and have forgotten more than you will probably ever know about the subject, but better luck next time.

I'm basically just using this forum as an excuse to procrastinate on other things, so do feel free to try again sometime. Maybe one day when you have something of substance to say other than blind refutations I'll pay attention to you, but it is not this day.








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Perdition Prison- where there are no guards, no rules and no escape. Only the strong survive: http://perditionrp.freeforums.net/

WOW. Lady, you just lost all credibility. Take your so-called years of "studies" back to school and get it assessed because you've yet to get a passing grade.
Sexism is a two way street, and if you think otherwise, man you're damn delusional.


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Everyday I'm tumblin'

You can "study" the subject all you want. That kind of "study" only serves to strengthen your bias. Anyone can look up anything to support their view while ignoring all contrary evidence.

If you can't make up anything credible yourself you pull out the sourceless scientific tests and imaginary studies on the subject? As I said, there are scientific studies that prove any viewpoint, but if you can't make arguments based on logic at least give us your sources. If you claim to be some sort of expert on the subject then show us evidence of your academic degrees.

In internet everyone seems to be expert of everything and know all the scientific facts. How are you different?

Scyfon is right. You lost all the little credibility you ever had with that post. When there's a situation where you can't counter other person's arguments the thing to do is to deny them and cling to your believes without any basis? It's easier to use personal attacks and try to discredit the other person?

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Far-off places with sweet sounding names.

believing in reverse sexism is akin to believing in reverse racism, heterophobia and the easter bunny. These things don't exist. Men can be negatively affected by misogyny, yes absolutely. But it's hatred of the feminine and women that is at the root of their problems. Women's reactionary anger towards oppression will not ever be the same as oppression until there's an established matriarchy and women own the majority of the government, wealth and power. When men fear to walk the streets at night because a woman might attack and sexually assault or rape them, and when men are routinely disenfranchised and have to fight twice as hard to get half as much recognition and still get paid less than their female counterparts, then ya'll can come at me with "reverse sexism."

Ya'll are dead set in your ways, so I'm not going to go on much more with this because it really will be a waste of my time, but if ya'll legitimately want sources and aren't just flapping your jaw, check out Audrey Lorde, Bell Hooks, and Patiricia Hill Collins, they'll give you all the resources and proofs that you need and are asking for. Bell Hooks' Feminism is for Everybody is a good place to start and can be found for free online as can a few of their other works. I also suggest reading Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish, and then reading Foucault and Feminism by Lois McNay. I am familiar with feminist theory and have learned much from them in my time even if I don't identify as one, there are still a lot of important things that feminist scholars focus on that others usually don't.

A psychological expert who focuses on gender theory is Anne Fausto Sterling, her work Sexing the Body: Gender Politics and the Structure of Sexuality would be a good place to start.

These are just jumping off points for you guys, but before you check out Foucualt, you'll probably need a working knowledge of post-structuralism.

A good site for you guys to visit would be derailingfordummies.com I'm not being cruel or condescending, this is a legitimate site that breaks down a lot of your objections and it's easy to understand and access.

Rayna Edwards also wrote an excellent book called, Responding to Gender-based Devaluation: The Relationship Between Microaggressions, Emotion, and Coping Strategies in Women and Gender Non-conforming Individuals.

If you guys are legitimately interested in sources to read and look at, here they are. Any social theorist worth their salt is aware of sexism, male privilege, and oppression. This is just the beginning, If you guys read all of these and want more, I have plenty more where that came from.

As for studying while ignoring all contrary evidence? I used to be exactly like you guys until I found all of the contrary evidence. So good luck.

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Perdition Prison- where there are no guards, no rules and no escape. Only the strong survive: http://perditionrp.freeforums.net/

Just want to say something.. It's true, there's no such thing as reverse sexism or reverse racism. Racism is not specific to any race and sexism isn't specific to a certain gender.
Sexism isn't discrimination against women by men or anything, it's not objectifying women by men, it's just discrimination against a sex generally not your own.

I guess you can technically consider treating someone better because of their gender or race as reverse racism and reverse sexism, but I believe there's already a term for those things, which currently escapes me.

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I'm sorry, but I'm sure this poll is intended as an artistic question same as "do you prefer to draw squirrels with stripes or without?" and not to insult or for prejudice

If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

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