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Manick
Post #623616
user avatar
Untitled


5:54 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 2216


All,

I have been in communication with PayPal directly, and they have re-enabled our account. We were required to remove the PayPal donate button from the site in order to do so, but we should be fine for now.

Additionally, we have worked the issue with our host, and we are no longer in any imminent danger of being shut down, due to our compliance with the DMCA request.

I wanted to clarify some of the rumors being passed around:

1. The DMCA was from an official source and not a troll. We have made a conscious choice not to reveal this source. We are not going to vilify the organization that did this. We want to encourage the adoption of manga outside of Japan, and we're not going to help that by putting a face to everyone's anger. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at us for removing the links.

2. The DMCA request was for "Contributory Infringement", and this link was provided directly by the organization that filed the request: http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512/question.cgi?QuestionID= 268

3. The DMCA was narrowly targeted at this organization's copyright works. We had to act quickly to ensure that we complied with the request, so we disabled all links. We are looking into code changes to somehow enable links for scanlators who do not scanlate anything related to this organization's licenses. This may take some time.

4. This is the first time we've had any sort of DMCA filed related to linking to scanlator websites.

5. The DMCA was not submitted to us directly, but was passed instead to PayPal and our host. We found out from our host and acted immediately. We have worked with companies in the past to ensure their rights are protected, and we would have appreciated being contacted first. We are willing to communicate with the organization that made the demand. I can be contacted (manick @ mangaupdates.com)

6. The DMCA was submitted through an intermediary who specializes in handling removal of copyrighted material from the Internet.

The MangaUpdates team realizes the importance of group links. To some, this site is no longer what it was without them. While we cannot guarantee anything, we are still trying to come up with some way to provide this information.

We encourage everyone to BUY MANGA. While everyone's purpose for being in this community is their own, our goal is to increase awareness to anyone who wishes to be informed. That is our mission, and has always been our mission. We will continue to strive to do that as long as we can.

Thank you,

MU

thevampirate
Post #623621
user avatar
Member

6:40 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 116


Have the scanlators doing series under the DMCA takedown been told which of their series are keeping them from having links? I don't know if there is a way to keep it quiet and protect the scanlators. I know if I was in a group blocked I would at least like an offer saying one or more of your series are keeping you from your links would you like those posts removed to give you back your links. I know this is a serious and sensitive process and I hope you know the community is behind you guys.

kitty1826x
Post #623622
user avatar
Me too ♥
Member

6:47 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 951


2- I was right it was Contributory Infringement.
4- I feel like that was directed to me ... I read some posts, and skimmed almost every post in this thread, and I don't remember anyone else saying this ... (Maybe I'm just paranoid)
5- Harsh.


Contributory infringement occurs where "[o]ne who, with knowledge of the infringing activity, induces, causes, or materially contributes to the infringing conduct of another."4 In general, the two elements of contributory infringement are (1) knowledge of the infringing activity; and (2) material contribution to the activity.

Like I've said before contributory infringement and MU is a gray matter. I know MU does not encourage downloads, or members to read from readers sites. ( As it was stated a few times in FAQ). So Inducement clearing not there. Knowledge, again that's gray. For all MU knows links to scanlator's websites are so members can see what other works they have dropped, planning to pick up, future projects, and maybe contact to join the group. MU has never said hey if you want to read something go to the scanlator's website and download it from there. ( that also goes to causes, and materially contributes effects). But hey I'm not a lawyer.
Speaking of lawyers any news about MU going to contact one so we can get our links back? ( I'm sure if decided to get one, that members would donate to fund such an event.)
Again not a lawyer, but I believe if you keep the web address as plain text and not a link it should be fine. ( I think they can't do anything about plain text because it would violate the First Amendment. Think is the keyword, but maybe something you can look into)


Oh last, and I almost forgot thanks MU staff for your quick actions saving this site from being shut down. Although I'm not as upset as others to the links being taken down, if all the hard work I put into my lists was gone ... I don't even want to think about it. no
Thanks again.

(A little shocked this update thread wasn't locked like the 1st one)

________________
Yes yes I know I make longwinded comments, but that's just me >.<
I should proof read my comments more, but I won't ... I really should though >.>
So keep in mind I'm filled with typos

Reading FAQ and Forum Rules is very helpful ... so go read them if you haven't yet. Ex. -You could find out how to link mangas. Along with other useful things.
melquiades
Post #623623 - Reply to (#623622) by kitty1826x
user avatar
Member

7:05 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 8


http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contributory_infringement

I personally think, by reading that article, that they can't have a case against MU


Hantu
Post #623624
Member

7:06 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 6


I hope you will find peaceful solution that you looking for and it a win-win solution. That was underhand move by DMCA, targeted your PayPal and host instead of directly deal with you. MU is still important even without direct link to scanlation group. There wont be much different for most of us thanks to a workaround by kind anon.
Just a suggestion, maybe MU can create alternative site or method to mirror releases. I didn't really use Facebook or Twitter. But having those will make you harder to be taken down by underhand tactic. Stay strong and calm in a time like this. Peace.

________________
i don't exist
Chinmay
Post #623625
Member

7:27 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 19


For now as long as we have the up to date releases, and an active manga database, I am grateful.
I can manage the other problem. My bookmark bar has always been my favorite thing for many things!

Reyalsdog
Post #623627
Member

8:33 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 29


Other than Crunchyroll, it could be Kadokawa. They not so long ago merged with 3 pretty big publishers, and now probably hold like 1/3 of entire market.

Quote
we are still trying to come up with some way to provide this information.

Take this script, and make an add-on for browsers. If no one from MU know how - find someone who can. That would be all, end of the drama.

Hinokai
Post #623628
user avatar
Member

8:36 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 23


You don't really need to put a face on anything, it's obviously Crunchyroll considering the timing. Gotta protect those licenses to put on a good impression for the new investors.

Bedouin
Post #623630
Member

8:40 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 5


I agree that the tactics used were underhanded, and I'm disappointed about that. Targeting your host and PayPal was essentially lighting a flame under your backside to act immediately. This organisation showed a profound lack of respect towards MU by not contacting you from the start and basically holding the site to ransom. Most ironic considering the principles that the DMCA is supposed to uphold.

kihi
Post #623635
Member

8:59 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 10


no.5 wow they used underhanded trick. Funny for some organization with "power" to use DMCA they're sure are sly coward with no dignity laugh .

I still think it is better for you to disclose the DMCA so that scanlator can be more cautious on titles they work on. Otherwise the scanlators are left in pitch darkness and the next thing they know their site link no longer in MU. Thats not really fair for the scanlator.

Whether you guys put a face or not putting a face they are not many publisher out there. We can get angry at one or at all of them but still if you want to get your fill of manga (btw i personally love printed copy) you have to get it from them. *shrug

booknik
Post #623636
user avatar
Member

9:02 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 72


They've already been playing a losing battle with the for profit host sites that nod their heads on one end and keep doing things behind the back. The host sites have been the target for years with little to no luck (with exception of mangaone but that only caused mangafox to become more popular and over bloated). The scanlators are sometimes hard to pin. It was only a matter of time before this occurred. With mu the scanlators have a backbone to move around but still be found.The scanlators depend on people finding them as well as donating. You break both the ease of access of a portal along with the ability to move and readily be found. It's an indirect way to hit the scanlators and an attempt to hit the supplier the host sites that are wildly popular; it also can cause a disconnect between the scanlators and their main direct base of readers/donations. It's a brillant move by the company's lawyer, but that was just mean they didn't think to directly negociate with MU first (maybe they are too use to the shenanigans of the host sites?). Pissed off as I am to lose the links to things that haven't hit the US market, I think I've been expecting this move against MU since around the time mangaone got hit. cry

Last edited by booknik at 9:50 am, Dec 7

________________
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Einstein
duskyderp
Post #623637
Member

9:03 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 19


As I mention, this actually smells like a Fraudulant DCMA claim.

I talk about this in slightly ranting/raging length here:
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=44023&pa ge=16#post623626

The reason is simple. They are using Chilling Effects, but from what you have told us, not provide a chilling effects open record DCMA claim report. It literally and open document where anyone can review or look at the filed DCMA claim with Chilling Effects. Thus, it provides due process because the public and accused have an open record of the case being filed. There is not secret court of DCMA claims but a Clearing House were people can view them. (Hence the Chilling Effects Clearing House)

For example if this was google, there is a policy with chilling effects to actually post there major DMCA reports. In fact, I believe if you look around the chilli's effect site there should be page up about proper filing of DCMA claims and how when using chilli effect, you are supposed to provide the accused website with a link to their claim. This is what google has done impart to so many false youtube copyright claims. (it gets over 1,000 a day)

Even if Chilling Effects is the immediate, they still have this policy of giving the website accused due process by having an open record of the claim. Its a corner stone of their policies as shown below:

Quote
Chilling Effects welcomes submission of letters from individuals and from Internet service providers and hosts. Chilling Effects welcomes submission of letters from individuals and from Internet service providers and hosts. These submissions enable us to study the prevalence of legal threats and allow Internet users to see the source of content removals
Chilling Effects aims to support lawful online activity against the chill of unwarranted legal threats. We are excited about the new opportunities the Internet offers individuals to express their views, parody politicians, celebrate favorite stars, or criticize businesses, but concerned that not everyone feels the same way. Study to date suggests that cease and desist letters often silence Internet users, whether or not their claims have legal merit. The Chilling Effects project seeks to document that "chill" and inform C&D recipients of their legal rights in response.



However, in this cause the organization has linked to a chilling effects FAQ page instead of the report. This tactic is very very commonly done by trolls who file fraudulent DCMA claims. Even if their DCMA has even some value of merit, its still a fraudulent claim because how they have served you the notice of the DCMA claim. Legally speaking how can someone fairly respond to DCMA claim they have only heard rumors about with no legal document action. You have no idea of the scope of the claim, the validity of the party claiming it (which Chilling Effects actually fact checks), their is no legal ground to stand on.) Literally its like issuing a subpoena for a witness and failing to deliver the letter of the subpoena to the witness. In the link, I gave I talked about very historical examples of DCMA battles being delayed or even won, due to improper procedure. (The fox one is my favorate because its a perfect example of the same type of DCMA threatening an harrassment you guys are experiencing.)

In short, I am pretty sure you guys and paypal are being trolled



A few suggested things would might do/consider:

1) You should write back through paypal, to the organization that if they do not produce or link to the necessary DCMA legal documents or Chilling Effects documents, then you will have no recourse but to file a counter DCMA fraud claim with Chilling Effects and the Better Business Bureau. While you have done what they suggested, the continued lack of proper legal procedure does not guarantee that mangaupdates couldn't possibly bring back links to the organizations.

2) (If they write you back a super threating e-mail do this)---> If they still don't produce the necessary documents or link to them, you might also consider contacting the major manga companies or google (depending on who this organizations says they work for) for concerns of possible identity theft of one of their employees. In this e-mail you might add, you are willing to work with google and manga companies to sort out any copyright problems as long as both parties have a fair and respectful tone. However, mangaupdates will not be harassed by organizations who fraudulently misrepresent major corporations with improper due process. You don't believe that such persons who e-mailed you were truellying working in google or manga companies best interest based on the reaction you have seen. In fact, all this DCMA claim has done is to make the problems worse not better.

3) Finally, open record is important, we don't file DCMA claims or emails in secrety NSA courts. Wendy Seltzer didn't create Chilling Effects, so that people could be threated as her own work has shown that automated DCMA silence Internet users, whether or not their claims have legal merit. The lack of an open record is also highly disrespectful Nelson Mandela, who faught to prevent discrimination specifically online discrimination just before he died.

4) You might also still want to contact Paypal for believing based on the information given that this is a fraudulent copyright claim especially because they have not produced the necessary legal documents or chilling effects to show DCMA claim. If Chilling Effects was the organization, I would not only send the message to paypal, but also Wendy Seltzer. This is becuase the email is seriously disrespectful of her work in making DCMA cases open to the public. http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/people/wseltzer


I write this becuase I deeply respect the founder of Chilling Effects too much and a deeply respect manga companies too much... too much to let 1 person and 1 e-mail ruin there life works in the eyes of the manga community. It is already hard enough to get manga in certain parts of the United States. (Its very complicated and would take me an entire thread to explain). We should do anything to hamper it. (we cannot even get it shipped to us online, without manga updates, I probably wouldn't know who to contact or message from manga companies to ask for e-book versions due to inability to obtain a physical copy.)


Quote from booknik
They've already been playing a losing battle with the for profit host sites that nod their heads on one end and keep doing things behind the back. They've been the target for years with little to no luck (with exception of mangaone but that only caused mangafox to become more popular and over bloat ...

You have a very valid point, if this didn't smell like fraud, I would agree with you. However, there is something rotten in Denmark.





Last edited by duskyderp at 9:11 am, Dec 7

Antaliss
Post #623640 - Reply to (#623623) by melquiades
Member

9:10 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 8


They don't need to. They know full well hosting companies won't ever risk their own skin for a customer and will shut you down preventively. While you're busy fixing the administrative mess left by preventive measures, your site is effectively out of commission. Law isn't about being right, it's about making it look like you may be right. The cost of so-called justice does the rest.

socru
Post #623642
user avatar
Member

9:14 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 5


I commend you on the very professional way of handling this. It goes without saying I will keep MU on my bookmark list. :-)
However, this organization, has acted simply INTOLERABLE. They could have approached you directly, yet they needed to form a bully gang ... I'm sure you would have cooperated with them, yet they chose to be mean.
They need to realize they took the wrong approach. What I suggest is this - remove manga pages of all the manga they own. Let them realize their manga is worthless unless it's promoted by a popular site like MU. And that it's better to be friends than enemies with MU. Regards, Socru.

duskyderp
Post #623644 - Reply to (#623640) by Antaliss
Member

9:17 am, Dec 7 2013
Posts: 19


Quote from Antaliss
They don't need to. They know full well hosting companies won't ever risk their own skin for a customer and will shut you down preventively. While you're busy fixing the administrative mess left by preventive measures, your site is effectively out of commission. Law isn't about being right, it's about making it look like your right.


A chilling effect counter DCMA claim can force any paypal company to not only reopen its doors, but issue you an appology, and be on watch for preventively shutting you down based on other excuses.
Seriously, how do you think chuggaconroy still get money for he youtube videos of nintendo games? Someone from Chilling Effects watchs his channel. (If I am not mistaken he get the money he's payed in advertisements by google directly to sent to his paypal account.) Paypal will not even touch a DCMA claim related to him any more for fear of possibly being wrong. (Also he donates alot of the money, if I remember correctly, because he doesn't want to be payed to play video games.)

So, yes they need to because they have legal and social precident to do so. Now Paypal may send them a BS letter, but this exactly why I talked about contacting Chilling Effects is for.

Quote from socru
I commend you on the very professional way of handling this. It goes without saying I will keep MU on my bookmark list. :-)
However, this organization, has acted simply INTOLERABLE. They could have approached you directly, yet they needed to form a bully gang ... I'm sure you would have cooperated with them, yet they chose to be mean.
They need to realize they took the wrong approach. What I suggest is this - remove manga pages of all the manga they own. Let them realize their manga is worthless unless it's promoted by a popular site like MU. And that it's better to be friends than enemies with MU. Regards, Socru.


I could not have said it better myself. *Applause for Socru*

Last edited by duskyderp at 9:22 am, Dec 7

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