Sorry, I'm a busy person so didn't follow the thread, but it's rude not to at least reply.

Firstly, obviously I'm not ok with rape, murder, terrorism etc. Suggesting that I would be simply because I am more disgusted by child porn is a ridiculous argument and holds no basis is sound, logical reasoning. It has been proven, multiple times, that over exposure to certain actions desensitises our reaction to them. This works for both good and bad thinks. For example, as we get older we feel that time passes by faster because our daily lives become more mundane so less moments capture our attention enough to be retained, thus creating the illusion that time is passing faster than when we were young. This is an example of exposure desensitising us to every day wonders. The same thing happens with rape, murder and child porn and pretty much any other experience you care to mention. I'm perfectly aware of the difference between legalising something and agreeing with it, but paedophilia is not something that should be legally condoned in any form.

There is a difference between paedophilia and murder. If you truly believe that child porn is manga is acceptable because it's just fiction, why isn't it also acceptable in live action dramas?

Also, I could cite a hundred references about how it encourages paedophiles, and you could cite more about how it doesn't. We could go back and forth all day and still not reach a conclusion. When you have kids, or a nephew/niece, or any other child you are attached to and you realise how terribly dangerous these child predators are to that child you won't be so understanding I promise.

It's slightly ironic that you are declaring me childish when you haven't actually given me a solid reason for why lolu and shots shouldn't be banned, you've only attacked me in a very immature way, which I forgive you for because you're probably a teenager and haven't yet learnt how to properly construct an argument.

I would also like to point out that checking out my lists is not really an accurate measure of my feelings. You'll notice that I haven't even started to read Negima. It is there because it was recommended to me several years ago, I read less than a chapter, didn't really like it but thought I'd try reading it again at one point, so put it on hold (my wish list is several hundred manga long) and actually totally forgot about it until you just brought it up. I'm not even sure what it's aboit, though no doubt you won't believe me. My point is, I've been reading manga since I wax 13. I'm now 26. What I read when I was 13 is not a good indication of what I read or believe in now. I did something called growing up. As a grown up i will do everything in my power to protect innocent children, that includes supporting a ban on child porn in any form.

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The pen is mightier than the sword...and considerably easier to write with.

I do not like BANNING things

the problem here is more how decadent the western world have become

in a good and functioning society a person should be preocupied with working and making the community a better place
not spending time reading sexual stories about 10-12year old girls or boys

sexabuse/crime/"terror" is a product of the capitalist world we live in
banning things will only lead to underground movements
we need to change society from the roots

lol and alot of other things
w/e
you ppl argue like this is something important lol
and that your oppinions matter
omg

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I felt that I had to respond to this.
The obvious difference is that live action dramas involve actual people,
while manga does not.

And I have to assume we're talking solely about explicit sex, because I've yet to see such an uprising against rape in "artistic" works.

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Hrodulf and Bjornolfr, you will not be forgotten.

And if the world were black and white,
you would be my rainbow in shades of grey.

Click 'n Play!

If I had a fantasy self, it'd be a tentacle monster.

Of course not.
...but, just as obviously, you're okay with having it in manga, and other media.

The whole point of asking that obviously rhetorical question, was to point out your hypocrisy.
I am amazed that you need me to explain this to you.
You claim, further down, that you've done a thing called "growing up". I beg to differ.

There have been countless studies on violent media (particularly video games, where you are taking an active role in performing the "violent acts"), and the results have been clear:
Violent media doesn't make you any more violent.
Violent media doesn't make you any more accepting of violence.
...and why on earth would you think that someone's desensitization towards violence in video games, would mean that the person is desensitization towards violence in reality?

Sure, I can confirm that I am desensitized to loli/shota (even though they are things I certainly don't seek out), but...
That's not child porn (as there is no child involved, only lines/pixels on paper/a screen).
Nor would my reaction to actual children porn be desensitized, by my desensitization toward loli/shota.

This is especially true in this case, as lolis/shotas looks pretty damn different, to how real children look.

Granted, there aren't as many studies that show fictional child porn to be harmless (as it hasn't been studied as much), but...
So what?
The burden of evidence lies on those who would claim that it is harmful.
Otherwise, you'd have to forbid EVERYTHING, unless it is proven to be okay ...and that would be ridiculous and hopelessly impractical.
Heck, it would be impossible to implement.
[quote]There is a difference between paedophilia and murder.[quote]
Yes.
Murder is far worse.
If you disagree, then I assume that you would want all victims of child abuse to be killed (so as to put them out of their misery, that is worse than death)

Because that would necessarily involve child actors doing things and/or having things done to them that, while it wouldn't have to be the full real actions they are to portray, would still be far beyond what you can ask of a child to do.
It would be child abuse.

In a manga, no child is involved.
Just pen and paper.

The difference is, that I would be citing scientific studies, while you would be citing anecdotes.
You would be cherry-picking all the "evidence" that you can find, that claims it encourages paedophiles, while I would be presenting studies that look at all the evidence, and concludes that there is no sign of such a connection.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
"Anecdotal evidence" and "scientific evidence" are practically opposites.

Anecdotal "evidence", has zero value in determining what is true.
It can guide you towards what to study, but aside from that...

Having children, or being attached to children, isn't an argument. It doesn't have any effect on the logic. It changes no evidence.

So what you're saying is "when you get a child, or get attached to a child, your emotions will over-ride your reason"?
How would that be a good thing?

There are plenty of parents who reject everything you say.
Also, why do you assume that I do not have children that I am attached to?
Why do you assume that I am not, myself, a parent? Have I said that I'm not? Have I said that I am?
Would it lend any weight to any arguments or logic, either way?

This is a complete red herring.
If anything, saying that "I believe strongly in this, because I have children", is an admission that one is too biased and too emotional, to be able to look at the issue, rationally. (not that this is necessarily the case, of course ...though, sadly, it often can be)

I don't have to.
You need to show me a good reason to ban it.
The burden of evidence lies with you.
Just as a person accused of an offence should be innocent until proven guilty, actions and objects should be legal unless it is proven that it would be harmful not to forbid it.

As to good reasons:
* Freedom of Speech and Expression. (which forbids such a ban)
* The lack of any rational reason to ban it. (i.e. stuff like "I don't like it" and "I feel it should be banned", don't count)

Ah, the irony...
What about my post was immature, pray tell?


You wouldn't know a properly constructed argument, if it came up and bit you in the face.
There is about as much reason and logic in your post, as there is ice in the sun.
The only arguments you've put forward, which were chock full of fallacies, was the point, further down about how Negima being in your On Hold list, wasn't relevant.
Aside from that, it's all logical errors. The only exceptions being any factual errors.

It does show what you've read ...and not dropped.

...
How do you read partway into a chapter, without starting to read?

Fair enough.
I take back my comment about Negima, then.
Thanks for correcting me, there.

Your "Complete List", sure as hell isn't, that's for sure.
This is completely off topic, but... 13 years of reading manga, and you haven't finished a single one? Seriously?

Last edited by zarlan at 2:24 pm, Nov 24 2014

Why should it matter if it is explicit or not?
She is perfectly fine with explicit murder in manga, after all.

She might object to rape in fiction (I don't know, she hasn't really said. Just that she's not fine with it in real life), but she's fine with murder in fiction
...even though it is far worse to be murdered, than to be raped.

This thread could only have run so long on an anime/manga board and there is a new poll btw.

You haven´t been involved in a discussions about Irreversible(me and Ebert love that scene) or heard the buzz around this: http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-ta lking-tv-rape-20140520-story.html
She does have a point about Women in Refrigerators(Gail Simone is my hero).

There have been anti-pornography demonstrations in the UK(and elsewhere) in 2014:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/09/23/feminists-stage-mea t-mark_n_977330.html
And counter-demonstrations against these ones too.

Aren't we all strangers in a strange land my friends .

Last edited by residentgrigo at 2:47 pm, Nov 24 2014

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I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb

Since this is getting out of hand and I don't want to devote any more energy to an Internet debate, let's just agree to disagree.

P.S. Of course I've finished manga, I just don't keep them in my completed list.

Last edited by CuthienSilmeriel at 10:27 am, Nov 30 2014

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The pen is mightier than the sword...and considerably easier to write with.

dude, then why would you necro the thread when it's finally died off, basically?

Sorry. Forgot it was also a thread. I just replied to a comment. I'm also bad at timing things.. Ignore me!

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The pen is mightier than the sword...and considerably easier to write with.

don't really care. everyone likes different things.

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As of December 31st, 2021, this account is inactive. I have long moved on. Goodbye.