Muslims are not better or worse as anyone else. The Bible is very problematic too and is missused for oppression daily but we need a bogeyman so the brown people it is.
Crazy orthodoxy versions of any religion exist and what happened on insert terror attack X is due to monsters and not religiose people.
Here are some wrong belies about the Quran: http://islam.about.com/od/commonmisconceptions/tp/myths.htm


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I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb

Really. It's all Muslims to blame for this. We who are in the majority are to take the blame for the few individuals who decided to go out of the their way to NOT follow/misinterpret/use violence which is condemned in repeatedly in the Quran and the teachings of our prophet?

It is our fault. Because we follow a religion that has no tolerance? We must take responsibility. For the 0.001% who commit violence.

Well wouldn't that apply for every other group of people ever in history? Should all German people held responsible for what the Nazi did? No. Should they be held for it? No. Should all Christians be held for what people like Jim Jones did? No. Do people hold Christians as mass accountable for every other act of violence done? No. Should every police officer be held accruable for what one officer did? No. A group of people never represents the whole everyone, especially when they literally go against everything that is about Islam. We have to some how come forward every time and "Not all of us" because people like you think "it's all of them." Never heard another man apologizing for the serial murders of another man saying "It's not all of us."

Saying it's the fault of Muslims but at the same saying not all is contradictory.


________________
Translating those lovely Boys Love stories

I absolutely agree. Both old and new testaments depict terrible deeds and insane laws.
But how many Jews are there in the world? And how many Christians (with all their denominations) follow those ancient laws? Even those who do, how many actually commit terror acts?

CH mocked everyone, including the Jews and the Christians.
How many were killed in retort?

I see no religion in a positive light, but we're talking about the terror acts committed by Muslims right now and the reputation they have.

@Sakura_Hikizaki
Like I said, those who follow that religion to a tee are quite obviously at fault, wouldn't you agree?
And I'm sorry, few individuals? What about the death toll in Syria? Do you really claim it has nothing to do with religion?
People like me don't think "it's all of them", please don't put words in my mouth.
It was clearly stated in my post.

Why would I blame Germans? Nazism was as much a cult as any other religion and those who followed it were definitely to blame. They just happened to have upheld their principles quite well.
No religion is peaceful when followed so literally.
The teachings of your prophet? What were his teachings, exactly? Striking infidels?
Islam stands exactly for those things, but YOU, as an individual, and thankfully many others, choose not to follow it to the word.
Same with any other religion, not just Islam. But like I said before, that's the topic of this thread.


________________
Hrodulf and Bjornolfr, you will not be forgotten.

And if the world were black and white,
you would be my rainbow in shades of grey.

Click 'n Play!

If I had a fantasy self, it'd be a tentacle monster.

I don´t have a high opinion on religion too but can accept that good thing come of it and i was taught by real Nuns at school. One of them in her 50s loved the Matrix btw. so let´s non judge too fast because you saw Mea Maxima Culpa as we all are snowflakes and all.
If we stop religion then we will kill ourselves over eyes color or football clubs or...

CH has been cooking for years and i find http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-30826582 way more important or near Shoah lever monstrosities like this forgotten one from 21 years ago http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide.
CH is a drop in the bucket in comparison. Watch the news, read a history book, go voting and don´t jump on twitter bandwagons. Only then can the death toll go down.
Or the sensationalist news coveredge .
Please make the Neo-Nazi/Pegida riots that are way to close to my location stop as they are getting worse if you possibly can. I and my african co-worker only want to live and push our weight(i for example help childern to learn the fun of read because of my job).
As Queen sang: Let Me Live

The http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht wasn´t actually evil btw.
It is the SS (who also killed germans) you need to hang and the americans did this here: http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans
As you see there were no good guys in WW 1/2 if you look closely and up to 2 mil. german women were raped (by russian like me) after WW 2 http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germ any.
Who is this Charlie guy again i saw on the Simpsons(this part is not a joke btw.) when compared ?

Last edited by residentgrigo at 7:02 am, Jan 15 2015

________________
I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb

While I'm sorry for the deaths of the victims and thoroughly believe in the freedom of speech, I also do not respect what they did or how they are fighting for 'what they believe'.

It probably sounds callous of me but insulting someone else's religion or purposely doing something blasphemous is just as terrible a violation of said religion practitioners' rights to freedom of religion. I'm certain there would be much more outcry if others started defacing their religious icons or have similar actions, like the defacement of churches in Thailand.

It is not like CH is helping to change the less humane sides of a religion. They are doing nothing but throwing insults to rile up some people. I can't help but think of 'negging' when I say this. A poor comparison but still-

Of course, murder is never right. And disagreements do happen in life. That aside, I believe in always respecting everyone as long as they bring harm to no one, be it physical or mental.

P.S. Most singular religions are terrible though. I had a dear Christian friend (we have been separated since the change of schools) who while was close to me, firmly believed in my going to hell since I do not believe in his god. While I do not believe in that, it certainly hurts to hear and is what makes it most painful to me when I make friends with people of those (similar) religions.

"I believe you will have great suffering for not agreeing with me on superior authority." is the silent guillotine I hear behind my relationships with these people because that is the foundation of their beliefs. And also the reason why I will never believe in that same religion.

I have no wish to inflict that same pain I feel towards others.

@residentgrigo
I don't claim all religious people are corrupt or even bad. But I do believe it has a very high potential to drive people to do abhorrent deeds, especially if they adhere to it fully and blindly (like I said in my previous posts).
Not only the current big monotheistic religions, but any sect that makes people completely surrender their lives to a leader and a notion.
Oh, and hey there. Don't proclaim that my world view was shaped by a documentary that was released in 2012.

Ok, so you say we'd kill each other over petty things if we didn't have religion...
Why don't we, then? Why don't I, as an atheist, go and murder people on the street?
You're giving religion way too much credit.

And again, I was replying to the thread.
You say I jump to conclusions, but you seem very eager to blame me for not remembering or even knowing about the genocide in Rwanda, and go so far as to suggest I've never read a history book or voted? And I don't even use twitter, so I have no bandwagon to jump on.
As for sensationalist news coverage... Well, I'll admit that I find them too biased to watch.

Since when does war produce good people?
Again and again you make claims to opinions I supposedly have, but I do not.
Either jokingly or not, I can't tell...

Oh, you're Russian?
Well, I was born in Belarus to Jewish (albeit secular) parents and now live in Israel.
I live among the religious and the faithful and see what it does to people and also what it doesn't. I get the feeling you think I'm from the US, or that I idolize it. I don't. (I could be mistaken, so I apologize if I am) =)

The murders at CH's HQ were just another line in the long list of terror attacks.
If you go by body count, yes, you could say it's not as important.
But why does it keep happening and does it really not raise any red flags to you?

But you're right, people like sensationalism and tend to forget the past and focus only on the recent trend. I know that full well, living in Israel.

To anyone who's going to reply to me living in Israel -
I've worked with and befriended (mostly) religious Arabs, so I feel no animosity towards them in general (if you were to claim that).

@lucidet
Whether you agree with CH or not, did they really deserve getting killed over it? =/
I'm sure you agree that that didn't deserve the death sentence.
Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion and freedom of speech is just that... You can speak even if nobody wants to listen. But nowhere does it say you can harm and kill people you don't agree with.

Again, to be clear, I'm just making a point, not referring to you personally.

________________
Hrodulf and Bjornolfr, you will not be forgotten.

And if the world were black and white,
you would be my rainbow in shades of grey.

Click 'n Play!

If I had a fantasy self, it'd be a tentacle monster.

I only want to throw every party i can under the bus at the same because evil can be found in every corner and not fight with anyone here. I also did not want for another anime/manga site to talk about Nanjing again so i went with the jankies.
My granda survived the Siege of Leningrad and japan made an ecchi card game about that and then Kicksstarter brough it to the west so we all are monsters.
What i want is for people to pick up a book or question what they read or hear and not just blindly look at "news" site X when something big goes down. CH has had some abysmal coveredge !
I just look at my email today for example and their "news" had an interview by a wannabe terroist who was proud to proclaimed to the camera that he looks forward to killig "infidels" in the future. I did not open that window but still . People died and this is what they get ? Freedom of speech you have fail me today. Censorhip is the worst but how does an email client need such yellow journalism on the front paige. The CH conversation is now below the sea level it seems. CNN had this "lovely" title 2 days ago: Does Islam fuel terrorism?
I even learned the word "Binladenism" from CNN. What the actual hell ?
Putting people into boxes is a bad idea in gerenal as some piece (like me) won´t fit anywhere. Cogito ergo sum you all.
NightSwan we are also gender neutral Berserk bros so there is that.

Last edited by residentgrigo at 7:36 am, Jan 15 2015

________________
I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb

I understand you. And no, they did not deserve getting killed over it. They do certainly deserve sympathy as well.

But neither do they deserve to be martyred for 'freedom of speech' for they are not heros but petty bullies. There are some things that should not be said.

Like say, a person died and you show up at their funeral and insult them infront of their relatives. If they punched you, no one would be 'supporting' your freedom of speech. Naturally I'm not comparing what happened to CH to this... It's hard to explain. :/

I agree, they shouldn't be martyred, and whether they were brave or foolish is up for debate, but their case is such an interesting one.
The team of CH knew full well that it might come to this, but the point is, why should it ever come to this? Even with your example of picketing funerals, the "punishment" was a mere punch. But getting killed over spreading what certain people might consider offensive cartoons in a satirical magazine... Well, that "punishment" certainly doesn't fit the "crime".

Yes, some things shouldn't be said, but we should all be free to say them.

________________
Hrodulf and Bjornolfr, you will not be forgotten.

And if the world were black and white,
you would be my rainbow in shades of grey.

Click 'n Play!

If I had a fantasy self, it'd be a tentacle monster.

Tripitaka what have you done to me bro ? How come i am now "running" MU´s "political channe". Oh well. If we can´t have satire in a satire magazine then what is even the poin ?
God is also forbidden to be shown and how many old man with a beard versions do you know of ? If the Simpsons and Family Guy could show him then i don´t get why Muḥammad can´t be shows as he has been before the 2005 murders or later or now. There should be no martyrs as this happened in 2010 and the world still turned just fine: http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Draw_Mohammed_Day
Now excuse me as i have to draw a stickfigure version of him too as a friend of mine already did this week. Both are also on proteced wiki articles with pictures of them.
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/God and http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad.
Where is the big DOS attack here ?

While we are at it this is who got killed/hurt: On 7 January 2015, at about 11:30 CET (10:30 UTC), two masked gunmen forced their way into the offices of the French satirical weekly newspaper Charlie Hebdo in Paris. They killed 12 people, including the editor Stéphane "Charb" Charbonnier, 7 other Charlie Hebdo employees, and 2 National Police officers, and wounded 11 others. Not the first attack on them btw.
Here is something worth talking about too: The French government granted nearly €1 million to support the magazine. The Digital Innovation Press Fund (French: Fonds Google–AIPG pour l’Innovation Numérique de la presse), partially funded by Google, donated €250,000, matching a donation by the French Press and Pluralism Fund. The Guardian Media Group pledged a donation of £100,000.

And this nugget i dug up now: http://time.com/3668875/pope-francis-charlie-hebdo/
“There is a limit,” he said, speaking in Italian. “Every religion has its dignity. I cannot mock a religion that respects human life and the human person.”
Today humanity lost.
For fairness sake: The Pope also condemned the Paris violence. “One cannot offend, make war, kill in the name of one’s own religion, that is, in the name of God,” Francis said. “To kill in the name of God is an aberration.”

Last edited by residentgrigo at 10:16 am, Jan 15 2015

________________
I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb

Of course it should never have come to this or have it as a conceivable consequence and their deaths are not their fault. Also everyone has the right to say what they want.

My point was more about blatant disrespect however. Being Asian and all, I see it all the time. It is staggeringly bad, even if its satire and all it does is ruinous division of races/religion. Satire would be good for caste systems, such as 'a joker mocking a king' or common populace vs. authority but it is never good - or at least not presently - when there is already bloodshed on hand. We still have race and religious problems, whether we admit it or not and we still have blood feuds. Things like these have no reason or rhyme and using satire against them is trying to pit logic against insanity. It does not work.

Not to mention, people who yell the loudest or have a large audience have 'a responsibility'. CH has that responsibility. They disregarded it. They are doing racial and religious harm. They are harming people as well, even if its not physical.



How upsetting. They should have given it to the victims' families and used it to direct more harmonious movements.

The famelies are getting money: On Wednesday itself it was announced that due to a huge demand in France, the print run would be raised from three to five million copies. The newspaper announced the revenue from the issue would go towards the family of the victims. And: The "survivors' issue", as the magazine calls it, is available in six languages including English, Arabic and Turkish. Proceeds are going to victims' families.
President Francois Hollande has insisted the magazine and its values will continue.
"Charlie Hebdo is alive and will live on," he said. "You can assassinate men and women but you will never kill their ideas."
Charlie Hebdo's decision to publish another cartoon of the Prophet drew threats from militant Islamist websites and criticism from the Islamic world.
http://bbc.com/news/world-europe-30808284
Ortiginally it was: 60,000 copies ! I am still not cool how this new issues is a hyped up "media event". I don´t think that buying a "must have item" and then going on with your life the next week while learning nothing can be the answer. Too bad South Park is in pause right now. Their episode i would have liked to see.

The conversation should be how the people(my govenment is behind CH) is handling the entire fiasko. Like how "my" Chancellor Merkel was edited out of of a Jewish ultra-Orthodox newspaper in Israel because she is a woman .
The picture in Hamevaser also cut out other women, like the Paris mayor, Anne Hidalgo, though the newspaper clumsily left her dark glove on the sleeve of a marcher.
The European Union’s foreign policy chief, Federica Mogherini, was cropped out.
I keep harping on it but the way CH is beeing covered is just insane now.
The more i look the worse it gets so i will stop now.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/14/israeli-newspap er-hamevaser-merkel-women-charlie-hebdo-rally

Last edited by residentgrigo at 5:16 pm, Jan 15 2015

________________
I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb

The thing with freedom of speech (and all kinds of freedoms) is that yours overlaps with the other guy's and that is bound to lead to conflict. It all comes down to free will (you can do whatever you want) and the fact that humans have tendency for conflict.


I'm sure if I decided to make fun of massacre (like, say a satirical comic) I would get myself in some deep s*** (no Muslims would have to be involved in that). Though if Charlie Hebdo did that, people would probably go easy on them (or did they do that already).

Folks from the magazine brought it up on themselves. You might wish for a world were you can offend others and do so with no consequence, but our world and (even more so) people are far from perfect, so there is no chance for that. Many have tried to change the world, but it always ended up with mountains of corpses and the world staying the same.

When there is an action there is also a reaction (that's how the world is and there is little you can do to change that). If you tell a random guy his a d***, he might punch you. Sometimes the reaction outweighs the action, like when you go hiking in the mountains and an avalanche takes you. That should not have been, you just took a few steps, that's like nothing, yet there is an avalanche. But only a fool would have go hiking at that time knowing that there is a risk of an avalanche and the folks from the magazine knew. There are times when people risk their lives for a just cause (like rescuers going to save the fool who went hiking when it was a bad idea), but was this one really worth it. Was that a noble sacrifice on the altar of "freedom of speech" or just pouring oil to fire?

Let's see, what if I stared offending others on this forum? I'd probably get banned because the rules forbid me to do so. Aren't the rules against "freedom of speech"? If the "freedom of speech" is so great, then why do we have rules that go against it on the forum? I'm certain that most countries have similar rules. If I started offending local politicians publicly I would get sued in no time at all (maybe it's different in France). Would there be a huge controversy over "freedom of speech" if Charlie Hebdo went bankrupt after loosing a lawsuit?

I find it silly that now everyone wants to associate themselves with some crappy satirical magazine, because of the events. I certainly do not want to.

P.S. Somehow the fight for "freedom of speech" turned into a fight over "freedom to offend others" in various media.

CH is whatever. Not bad, not good and nothing special and there are a ton of such magazines in europe but my library will now probably have to get CH in some form it seems. Here is a list of things South Park pulled(won an Oscar and multiple Emmys): http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_matter_in_South_Park. They got multiple death threads too and episodes were pulled and still it has this: 8,9/10 from 184.936 users on Imdb and it will go for at least 20 seasons.
Art needs to be 100% free and criticize anything as it is one of the very few ways to bring about change and can be understood by a global audience. If The 120 Days of Sodom or insert garbage X here needs to be defended in the process then i will do it or i chose the wrong job. I wouldn´t be surprised if my library would have to get Mein Kampf as is now could become legal very soon in germany and i am 100% cool with that.
That thing is worse then any drawing of any prophet as i have read it.

________________
I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb

There's no need to fight for the freedom to say things that don't offend anybody. By increasing their circulation many times over when attacked, they can demonstrate that trying to use violence to suppress things you find offensive will only backfire.

Maybe in backwater theocratic dictatorships alright to kill people for saying things you don't like, for mocking things you hold dear, but in a civilized country that's not acceptable. If you don't like what someone is saying, don't listen to them.

I've never read Charlie Hebdo, and don't feel any need to do so all of a sudden, but obviously some people read it and enjoy it. It's absurd to say they shouldn't be allowed to do so because some people find it offensive. Every fucking publication in existence is offensive to someone.

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"It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."