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Je suis Charlie - Nous sommes Charlie

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Kigurumi
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7:23 pm, Jan 13 2015
Posts: 537


Dear fellow MU members,

As some of you may have heard, two terrorists attacked the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo last Wednesday. Twelve people including eight editors were shot at the magazine's headquarters in Paris. The magazine is known for its controversial cartoons of Muhammad. On Wednesday, 14 January 2015, the remaining editors and staff will publish the first edition of the weekly newspaper after the attack.

Here are a chronicle of the events from last Wednesday to last Friday and a comment from The Guardian:
Charlie Hebdo attack: Three days of terror
The Guardian view on Charlie Hebdo: those guns were trained on free speech

While I wish for your solidarity with the victims' families and your firm standing on the issue of freedom of speech, I hope that you will equally promote tolerance and respect towards the peaceful majority of Muslims who may be wrongly accused because of the extremists' inhumane actions.

Thank you for your attention.


Last edited by Tripitaka at 7:56 pm, Jan 13 2015

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"Stories are what death thinks he puts an end to.
He can't understand that they end in him, but they don't end with him."
- Ursula K. Le Guin, Gifts


To be savoured:
- Blood Alone by TAKANO Masayuki
- Otoyomegatari by MORI Kaoru
- Gangsta. by Kohske
- Seishun Kouryakuhon by AKIZUKI Sorata
Post #659847
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Member

8:39 pm, Jan 13 2015
Posts: 88


I don't see this tragedy as Muslim vs freedom of expression. For me the religion of the attacker was irrelevant. They are murderer. I leave at that.

Because if we're going with the association logic, me and my family could never stop apologizing for the Crusader. That dreadful crusader.

Post #659859 - Reply to (#659847) by bnad
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Kigurumi
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4:00 am, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 537


It's good and sensible of you not to see it that way. Sadly, there are people who don't understand that, while the Muhammad cartoons are considered blasphemy by Muslims, it isn't the Islam itself which caused the terrorists to kill the magazine's staff.


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"Stories are what death thinks he puts an end to.
He can't understand that they end in him, but they don't end with him."
- Ursula K. Le Guin, Gifts


To be savoured:
- Blood Alone by TAKANO Masayuki
- Otoyomegatari by MORI Kaoru
- Gangsta. by Kohske
- Seishun Kouryakuhon by AKIZUKI Sorata
 Member

4:18 am, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 137


I hope you're aware of the meaning behind word "tolerance". Just in case let me give it here as well:
"the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behavior that one dislikes or disagrees with."

By saying you hope that we will tolerate toward Muslims you're automatically selling the notion we do not like Muslims or disagree with them.
I'm sorry to say but I will not tolerate Muslims as there is nothing to tolerate them for as far as I see it.

As for the issue at hand I'll leave you with what an acquaintance of mine said:
Quote
Can we please stop pretending that spreading racist stereotypes and cheap jokes mocking people’s religious beliefs make us brave warriors for the freedom of speech?


Charlie Hebdo are far from innocent in this case as well.

Post #659862 - Reply to (#659860) by Chibi-Chibi
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5:16 am, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 88


Quote from Chibi-Chibi
I hope you're aware of the meaning behind word "tolerance". Just in case let me give it here as well:
"the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behavior that one dislikes or disagrees with."

By saying you hope that we will tolerate toward Muslims you're automatically selling the notion we do not like Muslims or disagree with them.
I'm sorry to say but I will not tolerate Muslims as there is nothing to tolerate them for as far as I see it.


Hmm... while I do like that you have a good intention, let me help to clear something.

Tolerance.

To you use your definition, is "the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behavior that one dislikes or disagrees with."

The word "or" means that you could choose one. Either it was an ability or willingness. Either it was a dislike with or disagree with. So here's the thing, being A Christian, kinda put me, and every other Christian on a disagreement with people from other religion. Mostly about God and life after death thingies.

And you know what, tolerance also means, that's is okay, for people to have a different opinion about something. Because we're willing or able to tolerate them.

I have Muslim friends. A lot actually. And I'm okay with them having a different opinion than me about religion or politics or music.

Would I treat them any different? Of course. For example, I would try really hard not eat and drink in front of them during Ramadhan, and whenever I invite them to dinner, I would only serve halal food (or kosher for my Jewish friend). But I would never, never, think them as less of a friend because of that.

My point is, I think tolerance is kinda awesome.

But if you disagree with me, I'm also okay with that biggrin

Post #659866 - Reply to (#659860) by Chibi-Chibi
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Kigurumi
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6:11 am, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 537


I am aware of the definition of tolerance. I put it this way on purpose because for some people in our secularised Western world it is not as self-evident as it is for you that it's okay to feel offended by the cartoons because they feel so strongly about their religion.

Let me elaborate. This isn't the first discussion about Charlie Hebdo I'm participating in. For the past week, I had to witness quite a few voices that showed me that prejudices against Muslims are still an issue in European society. It was not my intention to imply that the majority of MU members holds such a view. If my first post gave you that impression, I apologise.
But just in case there are some people among us who think of Muslims as stuck-up because of their conviction not to accept drawings of Muhammad, I'm asking those few to show at least some tolerance if they're unable to accept other people's world view.

As for Charlie Hebdo's sudden heroisation, I don't agree with that, either. Personally, I consider their cartoons cheap, tasteless and unnecessarily insulting. I'm sure that a lot of people share my opinion on this.
However, freedom of speech means that newspapers must be allowed to publish even this kind of sh*tty cartoons. The Guardian put it in a nutshell when they wrote "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

For me the phrases "Je suis Charlie" / "Nous sommes Charlie" are not meant to elevate this newspaper but to show my empathy with the dead journalists' families and to condemn the act of killing fellow humans because of their albeit idiotic opinions.


Last edited by Tripitaka at 6:20 am, Jan 14 2015

________________
"Stories are what death thinks he puts an end to.
He can't understand that they end in him, but they don't end with him."
- Ursula K. Le Guin, Gifts


To be savoured:
- Blood Alone by TAKANO Masayuki
- Otoyomegatari by MORI Kaoru
- Gangsta. by Kohske
- Seishun Kouryakuhon by AKIZUKI Sorata
Post #659876 - Reply to (#659862) by bnad
 Member

9:02 am, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 137


Quote from bnad
Hmm... while I do like that you have a good intention, let me help to clear something.

Tolerance.

To you use your definition, is "the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behavior that one dislikes or disagrees with."

The word "or" means that you could ...

I merely used the first definition I found to make people think. I did not further elaborate as I'd like to be as little involved in conversation as possible.
This word is not just about dislike OR disagree, the word has long been abused by media and along with it's original meaning also proposes that "I am right but I'll let it slide". It encourages people to hold in rage disagreements they have toward people that are different/other. It encourages people to think they're worthy more that someone else is, that's why we have the leverage to tolerate. And it else imposes on people who are tolerated to think less of them self's and not feel accepted at all.
If you think word tolerance is awesome I presume your experience with the usage of this word is completely different than mine. I see people shouting this word in conversations because people who tolerate think they've put up with the shit long enough. I've been told to tolerate man misogyny and sexual harassment, and I am not the only one to hear this word in such context. Why do you think mass media promotes "to tolerate" groups of minority, be it sexual minorities, racial/ethnic minorities or people with disability. Because they're promoting the image of what is "normal", "the standard" and if minorities cannot keep up with it they'll either be put up with (tolerated) or outright condemned.
That's why I don't like this word and I don't agree with it's usage. "Accepting people for who they are and respecting them" is something I'd much rather see.
And while I don't know the whole relationship you have with your friends, what I read in your reply is exactly what I'd say is accepting people for who they are and respecting them; not tolerance.


And yeah I would disagree with your comment about us christians being in disagreement with others. I'm not buying that since my pre-teen times. And while it general it is true, god gave us free will so basically it's up to us how we interpret that. ^^

Quote from Tripitaka
I am aware of the definition of tolerance. I put it this way on purpose because for some people in our secularised Western world it is not as self-evident as it is for you that it's okay to feel offended by the cartoons because they feel so strongly about their religion.

Let me elaborate. This isn' ...

This gives your first post different perspective indeed. I'm quite on the edge myself around this topic lately too, because I see so much of the wrong conversation going on.
And on the end I am forgetting I live in egoistic self centered West where starting with proper tolerance might be the best I can hope for -.-;;

I wasn't really replying your as a MU member, but more as EU citizen.
And indeed we have a lot of racial/ethnic/religious/etc discrimination here. I can hardly blame you for thinking otherwise. American privilege keeps most eyes on USA, while even we Europeans are forgetting we have same issues, hack it's us who thought USA the mastery of racism.
I just wish people would realize that what's going on is nothing else but spinning around magical circle of repetition.

I'm not involved enough to fully comment on this, but I know one thing, that Charlie can print whatever they want, but just with taglines and pictures displayed to everyone whether they want to see it or not obviously told a certain group of people to stay in there houses or leave the country, and they coudl avoid doing that.
bnad said they don't see it as such (and it's something we all should see), but media is making this a Muslim vs freedom of expression issue, not terrorist vs freedom of expression. People going to freedom of expression walk are with it supporting Charlie as well as the message they were giving out to people. The loss families had are great, but the loss Muslim community, not just in France but around the world, has thanks to this is far grater if you ask me.

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Seinen is RIGHT
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11:09 am, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 2402


His death or http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_c ontroversy or the censorship of South Park or... are just the worst.
Ether we can make fun of everything or nothing. France (insert country X here) has freedom of speech if you can´t live with it go way or go to hell! What people are doing by using the Quran as a shield is just criminal. Or the unjustified hate of the muslim people.
I (a nonwhite atheist) have finished the entire bible and the Koran will be this year.
The amount of money my government is throwing out to keep the Pegida demonstrations civil is just sad. Respect other peoples opinions. Even ones of goddam Nazis as i think that Gemany´s very own NPD shouldn´t be banned even if they want to have people like me thrown out. Je suis: Grigori Getahun

Last edited by residentgrigo at 4:33 am, Aug 30 2015

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Post #659882 - Reply to (#659876) by Chibi-Chibi
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Kigurumi
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12:21 pm, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 537


I know what you mean. I've been aware of the subliminal discrimination against our fellow Muslim citizens for some time now, and I'm growing increasingly concerned about the recent developments. It feels as though Muslims citizens and EU citizens from other confessions are only drifting further and further apart, despite the public effort to get closer to each other. As though there was a foul mood smouldering under the surface of public tolerance.

I had wanted to prevent unjust assignments of guilt and prejudiced messages with my original post, but I guess it isn't that easy to get it right. I made this thread in order to raise the awareness of the unsettling changes in the European social climate as I fear that this terrorist attack in the centre of Europe might lead to an irreversible turn for more suspicion towards our Muslim friends and neighbours.

However, I still hope that the French and we as fellow Europeans may find the same courage that the Spanish population showed after the terrorist attacks in Madrid 2004: The courage to carry on with our daily lives like before, the courage not to let any terrorist threats influence our socio-political decisions for more openness, acceptance and mutual trust and the courage to stand firm in our resolve to build a free, peaceful and pluralist culture.


Last edited by Tripitaka at 12:46 pm, Jan 14 2015

________________
"Stories are what death thinks he puts an end to.
He can't understand that they end in him, but they don't end with him."
- Ursula K. Le Guin, Gifts


To be savoured:
- Blood Alone by TAKANO Masayuki
- Otoyomegatari by MORI Kaoru
- Gangsta. by Kohske
- Seishun Kouryakuhon by AKIZUKI Sorata
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Seinen is RIGHT
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12:27 pm, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 2402


http://aawsat.net/2006/09/article55265281 is a good idea or the new Ms. Marvel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms._Marvel_%28Kamala_Khan%29 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightrunner_%28comics%29.
You have NO idea what shit-storms these cool action heroes caused. Look it up !
Some people were born to hate it seems. I look "muslim" myself and some people in my life are not ok with that but i will wear my long metal hair and full beard with even more pride cuz fu#k them.
Were some of you non-white people ever called terrorists because i have.

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Post #659889
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12:49 pm, Jan 14 2015
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funny thing about tolerance, it has to go both ways for it to work



Post #659891
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:D
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1:53 pm, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 315


while i agree that the right to say what you want, even if its shitty, should be protected, i feel like many of the responses to this attack has left a bad taste in my mouth. like, reprinting material and celebrating this company like its some kind of hero? naw.

would have preferred if the national response went in the direction of australia's response to an extremist attack ala #illridewithyou

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Mad With a Hat
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2:10 pm, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 4764


Any negative reputation Muslims have was created by said Muslims.
People who follow a religion that seeks to eradicate any other way of life have no concept of tolerance.

I accept and agree that not all Muslims are like that, but those "moderate" people do not follow their faith and religion and would be brutally murdered as infidels in other parts of the world by their fellow Muslims.

Quote from afmart
funny thing about tolerance, it has to go both ways for it to work


Exactly.

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Post #659894 - Reply to (#659891) by gwkimmy
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2:28 pm, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 636


Quote from gwkimmy
while i agree that the right to say what you want, even if its shitty, should be protected, i feel like many of the responses to this attack has left a bad taste in my mouth. like, reprinting material and celebrating this company like its some kind of hero? naw.

would have preferred if the national ...


It's kind of a different problem being addressed though.

Australia-> Muslims being attacked by people associating them with extremists (or just using that as an excuse).

France-> Extremist Muslims attacking people who print pictures of Muhammad as a scare tactic.

I think both are issues and both do need to be addressed.

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Post #659895
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2:34 pm, Jan 14 2015
Posts: 761


In my opinion it doesn't matter what terrorists' religion, race or nationality is, whether they do that for revenge or to "free their country" or to "protect their religion". What they do invalidates all that. They are just murderers, it's as simple as that.
They shouldn't be associated with any groups except for other murderers. I feel sorry for all Muslims who are grouped with such people.
I know what it feels like to be judged because of some crazy loud people who supposedly belong to your religion (despite doing the exact opposite of its teachings) and, in worst case, I'm just going to be associated with narrow-minded homophobes, not murderers.

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