You love to scream at me but i love all my fans. I will now promote the medium (which i consider a bit superior to manga) and show you how sexism works on the other side.
http://amazon.de/Black-Widow-Volume-Finely-Thread/dp/0785188 193
Black Widow (or the 2nd version) were the leads in multiple very good series that got acclaim from (female) bloggers, professional reviewers and me.
The one above is still ongoing and we are getting an all-female Avengers Team soon, a high quality all-female X-men team exist and sells. There are hundreds of other quality examples. DC especial has become noteworthy in their representation of diversity of all kinds (thx.Vertigo/Karen Berger) and independent comics blow pretty much everything out of the water as indies are growing and outselling the big 2 week by week.
Back to Natasha as she can stand toe to toe with Daredevil, the Punisher, Wolverine and her on/off-lover Bucky in the books and she has no romantic interests in her current series which is nice. Elektra´s current series is good too and both ask some challenging questions regarding morality. She (and Sharon Carter) were leading characters in Ed Brubaker´s acclaimed Captain America run. She was also a quality act in the first Avengers movie (thx. Mr Whedon) and more importantly Cap 2. It´s Ironman 2 you need to complain about where she is eye candy only and she was very capable but her retarded romance was really bad in "Avengers Confidential". It´s by the Parasyte team and a ok action flick with a nonsense story.

It´s also a myth that female superhero films don´t exist as female leading big budget movies like Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel and TV shows as A.K.A. Jessica Jones or Supergirl are coming while IZombie (it´ Veronics Mars as a Zombie) and Agent Carter are storming the market right now.
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman_%282009_film%29 is quality entertainment and it is sad that DC decided to not make a second movie. The film made a sizeable profit and got high acclaimed but didn´t do as gangbuster in the fist weeks as the corporate overlords wanted. Past movies like Catwoman, Elektra, Supergirl, Tank Girl and ... were utter trash but they DO exist so let´s not forget our Dark History of further female leads.
The medium made giant strides in the last 30 years as we now have a very high female readership and more importantly a growing amount of female writers.
This is important as comics are suffering a well-documented gender gap but the problem here is more complicated then just screaming sexism. Where you should look for quality is the independent field. I swear by the Walked Dead where the deadliest character is the female/black Michonne (who suffers well executed sexual violence i will admit).
More noteworthy is that the sexually explicit / highly violent but also award-winning + bestselling Saga from Image now has more female reader then male.
I won´t deny problems as Identity Crisis, some Mark/Frank Millar books and so on but the average mass market comic is more respectful towards female characters, minorities (i am half black) or the LGBT community then what comes out of Japan. If someone disagrees with me then that is fine but that person is simply not reading comics i fear. I currently read about 25-40 newly releases every Wednesday as the quality is just that good now. It´s the sales i am worried about as they are... not that great. I know the scene in all the 3 big comic markets well and Bande dessinee are a bit of another case as they overrely on making their females too sexy (can´t spell Europe without nudity) or make them love interests only but they check out a bit more than the average manga as these characters are at least of age. Underage nudity is a thing in comics (of all countries) too but not the the degree Nipon has sunken and not nearly as sexual but let´s not go there.

One BIG problem with comic culture that shouldn´t be denied online sexism/racism, death treads and further trash. You know like on Xbox live? Most of what i said can be repeated about videogames where we are striding forward despite crappy Dead or Alive DLC (the games have good mechanics) or Criminal Girls or... Such trash may be made in japan but it is then bough by everyone so we need to acknowledge that this is an international problem. Then there is the Sarkeesian bashing or the Quinnspiracy or... Where would the web be without controversies? Japan is too civilized for that as they don´t brag on twitter about their CoD kill count or go on homophobic rants and so on even if 2Chan is a thing. They just get their freak on behind closed doors and that i can acknowledge is something the western world can learn a bit from. Let´s laugh a bit:

Assassination Classroom Apologizes For Printing Error on Characters' Bra Sizes
http://animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2014-03-20/assassination -classroom-apologizes-for-printing-error-on-characters-bra-sizes
Evangelion Ladies' Frilly Laced Underpants for Sale For ladies hm?
http://animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2013-07-28/evangelion-lad ies-frilly-laced-underpants-for-sale
Official One Piece 3D Breasts Mouse Pads for Sale
http://animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-01-16/official-one-piec e-3d-breasts-mouse-pads-for-sale

In America:
http://comicsalliance.com/dc-comics-t-shirts-sexist-batmans-wife- superman-wonder-woman-score/ BUT it was recalled. The Batman shirt doesn´t throw any real characters under the bus but the Wonder Woman one is trash.
There is now a bit of a "scandal" about an (awesome in my opinion as The Killing Joke is a real story) Batgirl variant cover: http://comicbookresources.com/article/dc-comics-cancels-batg irl-joker-variant-at-artists-request
Worst of all is a case where the writer got death threads for criticizing this cover: http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=52103
The cover is whatever but i will agreed that it is sexist but sending People death threads because someone disagrees with you is way worse than sexism so let´s leave it at that.

We are having a discussion about sexism in sequential art? Then read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y:_The_Last_Man (9/10) and Tempest (but only a japanese/german version exist). Both are about a single gender society and thus inherently about the theme, have very intelligent thoughs to contribute so just try out something outside of your usual confort zone and don´t give up hope. Search harder and don´t settle for trash.

Final though: Past anime leads like in Eva or Gundam: The Origin (or Victory or War In The Pocket which has a sadly rare good female Gundam pilot) have young leads who look, sound and behave like adults. Then we have the modern scene with angsty piece of nonsense like Banagher from Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn - Bande Dessinee or even better K-ON! and all the other Moe stuff (i call them virginity porn ) who are all "technically" older but have personalities, looks and voice acting as if they are barely out of grade school. Remember a time when men with beards could showed up anime?
Or how about Nausicaä who is a moe character but also highly empowered. Well Ghibli is closed for the next few years and Ageism has it´s own wiki article.
It´s frankly the anime scene where change need to happen as it is more public and alternative manga or josei publicationsand do exist. Remember the last time Noitamina showed a "real" Josei show? I kind off do. Less "hard hitting" internet discussion (most had good opinions to contribute of course) and more disc/tankobon sales are needed and it´s not a piece of paper or the concept of a country that is sexist (or whatever-ist).
It´s is us so think about what good you can do for real people before you try to change entertainment. I will admit that tv anime writing has improved in the last few years (or returned to glory!) but we are only retelling the same old songs with the same old puppets. Gundam 00 had good ideas, Mushi-shi came back and Death Parade is is great with a quality female co-star on top but we need more female leads who aren´t PLOT only. Or are cheap marketing gimmicks to sell god knows what. Rio: Rainbow Gate! i am looking @you! Psycho-Pass 2 did it, more Ghost in the Shell ARISE is up next, Sailor Moon Crystal (the old anime sucks) is getting noticeable international traction so i am optimistic.
Edit:conquerorofheaven makes good points i just saw.

Last edited by residentgrigo at 11:50 pm, Apr 11 2015

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I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb

I don't see why so many people take such issue with "objectification". I mean it goes both ways. Take Free! the anime which suddenly got super popular with a massive female audience. There's barely any plot and you can easily see the parts which are obvious fan service ploys. The reason why women in manga are more often the target of "objectification" is just because there is a much larger male audience for mainstream manga.

That being said I don't think anyone can pretend that the whole of Japanese society is still incredibly sexist. Any woman in a professional role that is largely male dominated (doctors, police, lawyers, etc.) is going to be the subject of criticism. This viewpoint has just been translated to manga. There are a lot of progressive manga that have pretty well balanced depictions of both sexes, but 99% are not mainstream.

The thing that bothers me are the double standards that have been accepted as a result of this. In almost any manga, not just harems, with more than 1 love interest it's totally okay for the female characters to beat the crap out of the male MC, but the second someone hits a girl freakin' time stops.

In Ai Kora Hachibei gets beat up hourly.
In The World Only God Knows Keima just wants to be left alone, but gets destroyed by jealous women that he's not even dating.
Zero no Tsukaima Saito just ends up in unfortunately sexual situations, yet he's the one that always gets punished.

I could go on forever, but the point is would any male really be okay with that kind of treatment? Just because a girl is a jealous tsundere doesn't mean she can treat the guy she likes like trash. I don't get why this is so appealing to people.

Now on to the positive. Look at American comic books. There are plenty of female heroes, a lot of which are stronger than their male counter parts. Both genders are depicted wearing skin tight, revealing clothing but it doesn't change how badass they are. The reason for this is that 48% of comic book readers are women. Bottom line, the tiny minority of people that read manga in japan is vastly male dominated. Especially when shoujo and shounen are marketed separately. I think that the more women that become accepting of manga and later action manga the less we'll see of this issue.

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Cynicism at its best.

It's just the way the world is, to change the manga you'll need to change the world first but if you mainly read mainstream stuff... Girl you'll never read anything worth your time, just some advice

Seems silly to be talking about sexism in manga and anime when there is an industry built around selling to girls and women.

And as popular as the loser-male lead surrounded by sexualized females theme is in shounen, the exact opposite is true for shoujo (maybe even more pronounced, actually), where the most popular stories are the plain-everyday-girls who are chased by the sexualized males.

Most of the industry is built upon pandering to what sells and what gets the best viewerships/readerships. And...unsurprisingly that usually comes down to cheap fantasies, for boys and girls.

Haven't you heard? you can't sexualize males. Those are called power fantasies.

Anyway, its a form of art. Fuck off. If you want it to change, lead by example. If you can't, you're just another idiot begging for others to do your work for you.

The manga that you mentioned are all clearly directed at males, so I think it's actually more a sort of fetish than real double standards

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My current top 3:
Fullmetal Alchemist
Pandora Hearts
3-gatsu no Lion

I'm female, but most of the time I hate the female characters. Why?

I think that most people jsut can't seem to be able to write a female character. There is a fine line between a strong and independent woman and a b*tch, and most "strong" characters fall into "b*tch" category instead.

But sticking to the topic of manga, talking in terms of what people think "shojo" is (being a female protagonist and fluffy romance), I hate most of them, because the girls are typically "girly". Meaning they are incredibly stupid, insipid, but somehow everyone finds them charming.

There are some exceptions to (my) rules though:
For example, Tohru from Fruits Basket was a typical shojo heroine, in that she was cute, stupid, naive and incredibly saintly, yet there was an inner strength in there that made her the heroine for a reason. She stood up to the "villain" even though she was physically weak and her personality was not really the confronting type. Actually I found her 2 friends, who were more of the "strong independent women" to be annoying, because of their over zealousness of Tohru. I know it was supposed to be cute, but it sometimes went a little to overboard.

I think I'm about to get a lot of grief for saying this, but I find Shuri from Honey Bitter to be a well rounded character, as well as what little we've seen of her friend Minori and her aunt.
Let's talk about the aunt, first. She's a strong independent woman done right (Again, this is only my opinion), because she's actually an ex-cop, so she has physical training and strength, as well as mental strength to back up her actions if need be.
Minori- We haven't seen much of her, but what little we know about her, in her first appearance she finds out her boyfriend is cheating on her, she takes everything as it comes, no overtly dramatics and she breaks up with him. She's a loyal friend, but not necessarily over-bearing.
Shuri- People hate her and find her weak because in recent chapters she Yup, that does not look good for her as a character, and people are disappointing in the author, thinking that she was above the "girl falls for her rapist" trope. Anyway, I don't really think that's what the author is aiming for at all. At least there has been dialogue about the whole issue, but for the time being, I think that she's a fairly well written flawed female.

There's sexism everywhere, that's never going to fully go away, we just have to filter the things we don't like and avoid the mangas/novels/movies etc that don't appeal to us.

My biggest problem with sexism and objectification in manga is how it's marketed. To young boys, especially (ick). Like, I don't care if you have a fetish for women being objectified. I have a fetish for men being objectified, so I get it, enjoy your fantasy. As long as it's just a fantasy, and you are aware that it is completely unacceptable to nonconsensually objectify people in real life, then please, carry on. But that kind of thing should be kept to fetish/niche interest magazines, where the buyer knows exactly what it is he or she is buying (like Ichijinsha's trap magazine or a seinen magazine devoted entirely to ecchi, intended for OLDER AUDIENCES). What I hate is that, in reality, it's sprinkled all throughout mainstream shounen and shoujo so that these little kids and teens who are reading it are all, "Well, X did that to Y, and she seemed to like it/no one called him out/whatever, so that's probably an appropriate way of treating women and picking up chicks." It's like, no, you're an idiot. Kids are idiots! I especially can't understand shounen ecchi series. Shounen's primary demographic is fourteen and younger! Why are you ingraining these stupid, malleable kids with messages that objectification and sexism are okay?! They can't even distinguish fantasy from reality half the time! Yeesh!

And that's my view on it. I hate how sexism is built into the culture of mainstream manga and pretty much stamped into kids' minds when they're too young and stupid to know how to think on their own. (Have I made it clear yet that I'm not very fond of kids? ) Sure, whatever, you need to do your puberty thing or whatever, but my god, at least know that you shouldn't treat people like lumps of meat for your own pleasure! (But then again, I'm asexual, so I don't really understand crazy teenage hormones or... or... the other very alien things you sexual people do. )

By the way, let's stay polite here, everyone, okay? There's really no need to get all offended and defensive because people may be Criticizing Things I Like (And That's No Good!). If you disagree with OP, then calmly and rationally defend your position instead of swearing and insulting. After all, I think it's safe to say we're all here because we all love manga, right?

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"Now, everything is... just..."

writer | librarian | critic

This kind of argument might be true from a Western perspective (to a degree, though the subject is very debatable, and I'd say being malleable doesn't stop when you grow up either).

For an Asian cultural standpoint (especially Japan), the entire societal system works to mould people into the kind of person they're "supposed to be". The language is built around the degree of respect you're supposed to show to someone, you're taught to bow your head and know your place from an early age, people acting outside of the norm is highly looked down upon, families that are "abnormal" are shunned, etc.

So when the entire culture and society around you is going to make you the same salaryman or office lady or housewife or whatever that everyone approves of, fictional content is taken a lot less seriously in terms of shaping you.

thank you!

The whole point of me posting this was that I felt like it was time to open the doors to discussion about this on a forum i frequent reguarly. From the sounds of it, there are a lot of people who have issues with gender representation in manga but not once in the many years i've been this forum have I seen much said about it.

People just seen to accept it but I just feel like it's time that we had an open discussion.

I mean, obviously there is no way some obscure forum thread is going to change the gender stereotypes surrounding a long and great culture like Japan's but at least there's discussion about it.

These same kind of discussions pop up constantly, and usually it's about how mainstream series are garbage and lack good stories, or how some character cliche is boring and overused, or what have you.

Reality is that this thread isn't really any different than those ones, you're just framing it is as "sexism" instead of the generic "there's so much garbage anime/manga" that everyone else complains about.

I see it in shoujo and yaoi pretty often and used in a casual or "romantic" manner. Things like:

"But you're a girl you know." (So?)

or

"At least act like a girl." (Basically dont be yourself. Be feminine even if you have to force yourself. Be what I consider to be like a girl.)

or in yaoi

"I am going to make you my woman." (Because by being pursued and submissive he is the "woman"?)

or

"You were moaning like a woman." (As if only women can act this way?)

IDK maybe not everyone will see them as sexist but I personally do get offended and put off when I see stuff like that. I am sensitive though I will not deny that.

Last edited by Whatever at 1:50 pm, Mar 28 2015

One thing I like about Japan is that the population hasn't yet been brainwashed into believing that stereotyping is the most evil thing ever.

Manga lives from stereotypes about Japanese society. If you took that away, they'd be about as boring and unfunny as American comics.

So please, just stay away from manga or find some that you like instead of demanding Japanese society to change in order to appease your hurt feelings.

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^No need for that. There are plenty of manga that dont have cheesy benevolent sexist lines like "but you're a girl you cant.." Your avatar for example. Yandere Kanojo.

The points that you're missing is that Shoujo and Yaoi are basically written exclusively for the young female audience, and very much shaped by what readership and sales numbers say about what's popular.

So, I mean you can talk all you want about how sexist that kind of gender portrayal is, but at the end of the day it's not about what the mangaka and anime directors are pushing to the female audience, but what the female audience is responding to and enjoying.

And sure, we could also have a long discussion about how Japan is extremely traditional and dead-set in its gender roles and all that. But at the same time it's not like the Western market is very different. Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray are two series that are absolutely notorious for featuring passive and weak female leads who get swept up in abusive romantic relationships, and they're massive best sellers written by women for women, and bought almost exclusively by women.

At a certain point you have to accept that you're essentially an outlier in the market demographics. Which is basically the same for any shonen readers who want protagonists with some brain cells and don't talk about heart all the time.