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New Poll - Scanlating Licensed Series

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11:59 pm, Jul 29 2017
Posts: 454


Yup, never, what we're already doing as scanlators is questionable enough, continuing pirate publications of a title licensed in that language takes all the "questionable" out of it, now you're just plain stealing. You shouldn't need a DMCA notice to tell you right from wrong, a title getting licensed into the language you intend to scanlate it into completely changes the equation.

Though I'm not at all surprised by the poll..........well, a little bit I guess, I'd actually expect it to be 90%+ for "yes, always" because the vast (vaaaaaast) amount of scanlation fans are just that, fans, and nothing else. They're not involved in scanlations in any way, they're just consumers who don't care about anything or anybody but getting what they want, as fast as they can get it, and for free. None of them are ever going to say stop, hell, a high percentage of them don't even know how any of this works, they're just reading free stuff and waiting for more to appear.

Post #693983
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6:59 am, Jul 30 2017
Posts: 432


The argument that pirate copying is bad for the creators, is deeply flawed in multiple ways (some of which have already been mentioned and I don't wish to side-track the thread, so lets just say I don't buy it and leave it at that)
...though with anime/manga, you could argue that people go for fan translations, due to them being available far sooner (though that's not always true, anymore). That said...

That said, it depends on how good the licenced translation is.

If it's on par with, e.g. Tokyopop... (or, say, Chrunchyroll's subs [more like trollsubs] for Gabriel Dropout)
Continue scanlating and refuse to ackowledge that an official translation exists (as such "translations" could hardly be refered to, as such)

Every scanlator/fansubber/whatever ceasing to translate a work, due to it being licensed...
If it's because there is now a, at least decent, translation already being made, then it's a decent and respectable gesture and avoiding re-inventing the wheel ...or maybe more like pre-inventing? You get what I mean. (this won't stop pirating, mind. I've seen plenty of scans of translated manga)

If, however, it is just because it's licenced, even though the "translation" is shit...
Then it means that no one, other than those who know enough Japanese, to need no translation, will be able to properly enjoy the work.

In fact, I'd encourage people to revisit series that have had a badly "translated" release, long ago, and consider scanlating them.

Last edited by zarlan at 7:08 am, Jul 30 2017

Post #693985
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8:01 am, Jul 30 2017
Posts: 402


I don't really see how giving out for free something a creator is trying to make a living off can be good for them, but whatever.

I'm more curious about these crap official translations. How do you even know they're crap? I don't actually read a lot of translated manga, official or scanlations, but I do know that the skill level of fan J-E translators (and I don't exclude myself) is well below that of professionals. If you closely look at a random selection of scanlated chapters, you will find that many (if not most) are rife with mistakes that a pro wouldn't make. There are all sorts, from insufficient knowledge of Japanese to even understand the original, to insufficient knowledge of subject matter to correctly express it in English, coupled with unwillingness/inability to research, and even the command of English is often lacking. So even if there is a crap official translation, chances are that the scanlation would also be crap, albeit in a different way.

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Post #693989 - Reply to (#693985) by cmertb
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9:26 am, Jul 30 2017
Posts: 432


Quote from cmertb
I don't really see how giving out for free something a creator is trying to make a living off can be good for them

I said that it's bullshit to say that it hurts them. I said nohing about it benefitting them (that's a complete separate issue ..not that I get why you wouldn't understand how it is beneficial to have lots of people know about you and your work...)
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How do you even know they're crap?

Several reasons:
* A lot of the translations sound weird/bizzare/unnatural.
* A lot of the translations have characters talking in a way/manner/style (or lack thereof), that is completely out-of-character for them.
* I know some Japanese. Not to the level of having no need, at all, of translation (except with very easy reads, like Chii's Sweet Home. And if looking up kanji was less of a hassle...), but...
* I know some people who are fluent in Japanese (including professional translators), who have generally confirmed my assesments.
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I don't actually read a lot of translated manga, official or scanlations, but I do know that the skill level of fan J-E translators (and I don't exclude myself) is well below that of professionals.

Based on...?
As you, yourself admitted, you don't read a lot of either. That means you are in no position to judge.

On what basis do you claim that all fan translators are inferior to all professionals? (keep in mind that all that "professional" means, is that you get paid, however much/little, for it. It says nothing of your education, qualifications or skill)

All of the mistakes you mention, "that a pro wouldn't make", are thing I've seen countless times, in professional "translations", along with even worse mistakes ...and intentional errors and changes (and no, I'm not talking about fully legitimate changes to idioms, phrases and the like, and similar things, that makes the translation less literal, but does bring it closer to the feel/meaning of the original)

Do those flaws exist in fan translations?
Certainly!
I've even seen ones thay are almost unreadable, due to being made by Chinese people with little to no understanding of English. (which doesn't neccesarily make them worse than some professional translations I've seen, mind you)
Not from all groups, though
...and the fact that shit fan translators exist, doesn't excuse shit "pro" translations, who have the gall to ask for money for their garbage and presume to call themselves pro translators (with fan translations, if they're shit, at least no one has to pay for 'em and no one gets paid for 'em)

There are shit translators AND decent/good translators among both pros and fans translators.
At no point did I make any claim, concerning which group (pros or fans) is worse/better, overall
...and neither does that issue have any relevance or bearing, on anything I've said.

Besides:
If a scanlator does a bad translation, another one might come along and do a better job
...but if you get a shitty professonal translation, then there is, essentially, no hope of a decent translation, ever.

Last edited by zarlan at 2:10 pm, Jul 30 2017

Post #693996 - Reply to (#693989) by zarlan
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2:27 pm, Jul 30 2017
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Quote from zarlan
I said that it's bullshit to say that it hurts them.


You're getting carried away with trying to defend something that can't be defended. Questions of quality, availability, none of that crap matters, you're trying to rationalize away black-and-white right and wrong.

If you're a scanlator that's stepping on the author and the publisher's toes by making and distributing your own version of what they're selling (which obviously is going to take sales away from them.......even if it's just one person who takes the free version instead of buying the commercial version.........who are you trying to kid that it's "bullshit to say that it hurts them"? O_o) then you're stealing from them.

There's just no way to get around this.

Post #693999 - Reply to (#693989) by zarlan
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3:50 pm, Jul 30 2017
Posts: 402


Why do you think you understand the manga market better than the publishers who work in it? The claim that the mangaka and his intermediaries will somehow benefit from wider exposure lacks any kind of evidence to back it up, while the publishers who are supposed to understand the market believe the opposite. I tend to agree with the publishers simply because this isn't 2000 anymore, anyone who was ever going to get into the manga fanbase is already in it. Today, scanlation will result in lost sales and no gain to the fanbase.

Now, about translation quality, I don't need to read everything or even a lot to make a judgment. I simply need to have read a representative sample, which I have. I do catch pro tlers make mistakes from time to time, but it is really from time to time. Mistakes in fan translations are commonplace. I'm talking about unintentional mistakes specifically, intentional changes are a separate matter. In any case, I have yet to see an official tl that I would describe as "shit" due to it being unintentionally bad, so if you can point to any example (I mean provide an image, because I won't go and buy it), I would appreciate it.

I know that there are some fan translators who translate better than many pro tlers (actually, there are some pros in scanlation, interestingly enough), but we're talking about the average level here. And the average level is unfortunately not where you'd want it to be.


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Post #694014 - Reply to (#693999) by cmertb
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10:35 pm, Jul 30 2017
Posts: 432


Quote from cmertb
Why do you think you understand the manga market better than the publishers who work in it?

As I said, I'm not going to go into that issue here, so as to not side track things.
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Now, about translation quality, I don't need to read everything or even a lot to make a judgment. I simply need to have read a representative sample

...and you think you can say what you've read is representative, because...?
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I do catch pro tlers make mistakes from time to time, but it is really from time to time.

Oh really?
So pretty much everything Tokyopop ever released, for example, is time to time?
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I'm talking about unintentional mistakes specifically, intentional changes are a separate matter.

...and far worse and inexcusable.
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In any case, I have yet to see an official tl that I would describe as "shit" due to it being unintentionally bad, so if you can point to any example (I mean provide an image, because I won't go and buy it), I would appreciate it.

Why would I bother to remember something that is worthless?
But to mention what I can remember, and think of, off the top of my head:
Anything by the, thankfully no longer existing, Tokyopop, Kuchibiru Tameiki Sakurairo (I've downloaded the pro translation, scanlation and raw and compared them ...and both translations contained ridiculously basic errors, that even I would never be capable of making or comprehending how you could manage to make), the (as I've mentioned) Crunchroll Gabriel Dropout (anime) English subs, every translation of the Seikai series (be it manga, anime or the original books. Hell, the books are abridged, aside from having a preposterous translation)...
There are tons more, but...

As I've said, it's hardly something I'd bother to remember.

Oh no wait!
I just remembered an example. Not the best, perhaps, as it might not involve messing up the meaning and might not be quite to the level of shitty, but...
One of the pro translator friends I mentioned, has gotten criticized by some, for his Naruto translation, because he made Naruto sound like a bratty teenager (unlike in the English translations) ...to which he responds that Naruto sounds like a bratty teenager in the originals.
This means that the English translations (where he doesn't sound like that) mess up, on one of the basic fundamentals of translation.
One that I often see scanlators get right.
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(I mean provide an image, because I won't go and buy it)

Just download pirate copies then.
It's not like anyone is losing any profits from what you would be buying anyway ...and you've already stated that you're willing to read (and make) fan translations, so it's not like you'd have any moral qualms about it.
(though in the case of Gabriel Dropout, you can simply watch it for free)
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but we're talking about the average level here.

No we aren't.
As I said:
The average level had no relevance or bearing, on anything I've said or argued.

As long as there is a significant amount of shit pro translations (and there are) and a significant amount of good scanlators (and you just admitted that there are), that is sufficient for what I'm saying.

Last edited by zarlan at 10:56 pm, Jul 30 2017

Post #694019 - Reply to (#694014) by zarlan
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12:27 am, Jul 31 2017
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Quote from zarlan


>_<

All I basically hear you saying is "It's fine and I've got an answer for any argument because I want it."

Oh well, whatever, but a lot of what's come up isn't what was asked. All that was asked is if scanlations should continue if the title gets licensed, and the answer is no, never, that's plain stealing, folks. Practically no fan is going to turn down "free" over "costs money", so it's up to the scanlators to do the right thing and stop when this comes up.

Just find a new project, people, and be happy for the author who made it to the (really) big time smile

Post #694021 - Reply to (#694019) by svines85
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1:07 am, Jul 31 2017
Posts: 432


Quote from svines85
All I basically hear you saying is "It's fine and I've got an answer for any argument because I want it."

...because you hear what you want to hear.
What I'm actually saying, is that I'm not going to debate the issue here, because it's off-topic.
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Oh well, whatever, but a lot of what's come up isn't what was asked. All that was asked is if scanlations should continue if the title gets licensed, and the answer is no, never, that's plain stealing, folks.

No, that answer is completely outside of the scope of the poll question.
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Practically no fan is going to turn down "free" over "costs money", so it's up to the scanlators to do the right thing and stop when this comes up.

...
That sentence makes no sense.
If you ended it with "so you shouldn't do scanlations", then it would be coherent, but...

Post #694027 - Reply to (#694021) by zarlan
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8:00 am, Jul 31 2017
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Quote from zarlan


Flailing wildly there, ain't ya? biggrin

Post #694028 - Reply to (#694014) by zarlan
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8:29 am, Jul 31 2017
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Okay, I should clarify that my sample is representative of shounen and seinen demographic. And it is representative because it's pretty random, and sufficient in size to give me an over 80% confidence level with the assumption of total population in the specified demographic of 1000. It's good enough for me to make a judgment.

As for the specifics, so far most of your complaints seem to be about poor stylistic choices (which, I should point out, is highly subjective) or intentional changes. This is not the same level of error as basically not understanding the Japanese original, which is a glaring issue in scanlation. I would like to check the one specific example of basic translation errors you gave, Kuchibiru Tameiki Sakurairo, but naturally I'm only finding scanlations online. So if you could point me to where to find the official translation (by PM)?

And yes, zarlan, we are talking about the average level. Remember, I'm the one who started this thread in the conversation. My original point was that if you have a fan translation and an official translation for the same title, chances are the fan translation will be worse. You seem to argue that it's all worth it because it is possible for the fan translation to be better. To this, I can only say that there are many things in the universe which are possible, but not probable, so it is a very weak argument even from the utilitarian point of view, easily outweighed by the harm caused by lost sales.

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Post #694049
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Manga Omnivore
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10:18 pm, Jul 31 2017
Posts: 23


as the question it's written my answer is an instant 5.

i'm also all for translating the so far untranslated material and remove it as the volumes come out in the language in question.

do i like when i can read licensed manga without paying for it, yes very much but i prefer to buy them if i can.

i do however think that all mangas should have a few chapters available online just so you can know what you're getting into, they are quite expensive for the time it takes to read them especially if i need to import them .

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12:42 pm, Aug 1 2017
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I really try to read the licensed version for stuff (right now Kimi ni Todoke and Akatsuki no Yona) but I can see that it is annoying when it's way behind. I don't like spending lots of $$ on stuff, I especially didn't when I was a teen and first started reading manga, but I have read a lot of manga from the library which is free. And I don't live in the US, I live in Canada, where licensed manga is just as available (and even more expensive, but that's life).

As for scanlating, I like to pick up series that are not licensed. If it was licensed, I would drop it. However, I finished a series that was dropped by Viz (B.O.D.Y.). I felt that the fans needed to know what happened.

And I can't say I haven't read ones that were licensed, and then scanned, and then posted onto manga sites. Which is probably more illegal than scanlating??

Usually, I'll go by the rule that if it is available scanlated, I'll check it out for free, and then buy it if I liked it. I'd rather buy something I know I already like than take a chance.

Post #694093 - Reply to (#693979) by svines85
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11:39 pm, Aug 1 2017
Posts: 18


I chose #4 but I couldn't agree more with what you said about those "fans".
My favorite way to get mad and cringe at the same time is, go to any aggregator manga sites (mangafox, mangapark, mangahere etc) and read the comments from those "fans", you'll face palm yourself in no time.

One time I found a top comment which sounds something like this: "Don't you hate it when sites like mangapark uploads all these manga yet they're not completed? Why don't they finish one and move to the next manga!!"

The way they think how scanlated online manga works amuse me laugh laugh laugh

Post #694101 - Reply to (#694028) by cmertb
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5:40 am, Aug 2 2017
Posts: 432


Quote from cmertb
and sufficient in size to give me an over 80% confidence level with the assumption of total population in the specified demographic of 1000. It's good enough for me to make a judgment.

80%? Based on... An assumption.
...
'nuff said.
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As for the specifics, so far most of your complaints seem to be about poor stylistic choices

No. I have not made a single such complaint.
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or intentional changes.

...which are far worse than unintentional ones.
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This is not the same level of error as basically not understanding the Japanese original

...except that, that type of error, is quite a big proportion of my complaints.
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I would like to check the one specific example of basic translation errors you gave, Kuchibiru Tameiki Sakurairo, but naturally I'm only finding scanlations online. So if you could point me to where to find the official translation (by PM)?

I'll do that, as soon as I get access to a proper computer (mine doesn't work at the moment. I'm writing this on smartphone)
...though I must say that I'm shocked by your lack of googleing skills.
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And yes, zarlan, we are talking about the average level. Remember, I'm the one who started this thread in the conversation.

No you didn't.
Your first comment in this conversation, was a reply to my comment
...which makes my comment, the first one.
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My original point was that if you have a fan translation and an official translation for the same title, chances are the fan translation will be worse.

Perhaps ...but that's irrelevant.
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You seem to argue that it's all worth it because it is possible for the fan translation to be better.

No, I am pointing out the fact that fan translations many times (not all, certainly, or necessarily even most) ARE much better, with the official one being terribly bad.
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easily outweighed by the harm caused by lost sales.

Now you're going off-topic, by going into arguments against pirate copying (need I remind you that any scanlation, license or not, is pirate copying?)
Besides: Why should horrid translations, be supported? Why encourage companies, to give people defective prioducts? (after all, it's a lot cheaper to make shit translations ...and if that'll do. If customers have no oher choice...)

Last edited by zarlan at 5:53 am, Aug 2 2017

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