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Abortion

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What do you think of abortion?
It shouldn't happen
Women should have the choice
Maybe in certain circumstances
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daed
Post #225837 - Reply to (#225637) by shi666san
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8:41 pm, Nov 7 2008
Posts: 1574


Quote from shi666san
Quote from kaerfehtdeelb
In certain circumstances. Like if it was rape, incest, or a danger to the woman's life.

Otherwise not, you shouldn't destroy a possible life just because you don't want it.


I completely agree with you *nods*
I get really mad when I see girls my age getting pregnant aborting the baby, and then getting pregnant again a couple moths later. mad

no worries, after a few abortions it's really screws up the uterus stuff in there, so wont have to worry about them every reproducing. sucks for the poor fetuses though

personally conflicted about it, don't want the government to make something you do to your own body illegal, but it's a horrible practice.

TofuQueen
Post #225844
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Crazy Cat Lady
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9:38 pm, Nov 7 2008
Posts: 1849


It might be helpful for many people to study the development from fertilized egg to embryo to fetus to baby. Very early on, that clump of cells really bears no resemblance to a human; it doesn't have a brain or organs or nerves that can feel pain.

While I strongly favor preventing pregnancy in the first place rather than getting pregnant & then aborting, I really have no argument with very early abortions - that is not a baby, it is a group of cells that may, under the right conditions, develop into a baby.

Those who are 100% against abortion need to look at the reality of our world - many, many children born to parents who are unable or unwilling to care for them. If abortion is outlawed without addressing any other issues, that number will only increase.

If you are 100% against abortion, then look for ways to make it obsolete!

Look for ways to change the world so that the only girls/women who get pregnant are those who want to have children.

Look for ways to change the world so that people aren't forced into agonizing choices like "do I abort this pregnancy and increase the chances that I'll be able to care for the six children I already have, or do I continue this pregnancy and greatly increase the chances that none of my children will have enough to eat?".

Look for ways to address the root of the problem - unwanted pregnancies - rather than just outlawing one result of the problem.

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Rob1988
Post #225847
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Sinon
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9:53 pm, Nov 7 2008
Posts: 914


Recommended read: Freakonomics
Nice chapter in it where he attributes the main factor for the fall of crime in 90's America to a certain court case that occurred ~18 years prior eek

So ignoring morals another practical reason for abortion.

IMustBeInsane
Post #225860 - Reply to (#225837) by daed
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Oxymoronic
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10:28 pm, Nov 7 2008
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Quote from daed
personally conflicted about it, don't want the government to make something you do to your own body illegal, but it's a horrible practice.


I know lots of people have used the excuse: "it's a woman's own body. What right does the government have to make what people to do their own body illegal?" Personally, this bugs me for two reasons.
A) I don't think a baby is just another part of a womans body but even disregarding this, there is
B) the government has plenty of things illegal that you can do to your own body, at least in the U.S. It's illegal to make your own body high by taking things such as LSD and pot. It's illegal to try and kill your own body.


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Rob1988
Post #225865 - Reply to (#225860) by IMustBeInsane
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Sinon
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10:33 pm, Nov 7 2008
Posts: 914


Quote from IMustBeInsane
A) I don't think a baby is just another part of a womans body

If it isn't part of her body then surely she has the right to get rid of the foreign parasite? shy

x0mbiec0rp
Post #225867 - Reply to (#225865) by Rob1988
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lagomorphilia!
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10:37 pm, Nov 7 2008
Posts: 2507


Quote from Rob1988
Quote from IMustBeInsane
A) I don't think a baby is just another part of a womans body

If it isn't part of her body then surely she has the right to get rid of the foreign parasite? shy

Sometimes the body tries to do that all by itself.


Don't let an expectant mother hear you say that...

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TofuQueen
Post #225868 - Reply to (#225860) by IMustBeInsane
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10:43 pm, Nov 7 2008
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Quote from IMustBeInsane
B) the government has plenty of things illegal that you can do to your own body, at least in the U.S. It's illegal to make your own body high by taking things such as LSD and pot. It's illegal to try and kill your own body.
I do believe a large part of the regulation of drugs & alcohol is that people who use them also often cause harm to others, or cause harm to themselves w/out really understanding what they're doing.

At least in theory, girls/women who are having an abortion are educated & informed about it ahead of time (if they're not, they certainly should be).


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StarlightDreams
Post #225871
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11:00 pm, Nov 7 2008
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Maybe in certain circumstances...but I won't get into details about it.

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harmonious
Post #225872 - Reply to (#225828) by x0mbiec0rp
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11:07 pm, Nov 7 2008
Posts: 8


Quote from x0mbiec0rp
That is not a controlled experiment. In fact, what that's actually known as is a case study. And again, it doesn't take into account the similarity of adoptive environments, or even how being in a similar region would play into personality. It's very easy to argue that most of these similarities are completely coincidental.


It is one single experiment of many that study genetics and personality.

Quote from x0mbiec0rp
That's a matter of opinion. You also fail to take in to account that man has been using his advanced intelligence to disrupt the process of evolution for quite some time. Most would argue that inaction to save a childs life from a curable disease is immoral, yet it uses man's intelligence to avoid an otherwise unavoidable event, and potentially disrupt the genetic pool. In the grander scheme of things, perhaps it's evil because it alters the survivability of man. Before you declare some evil, make sure it's not just an opinion.


A deaf person wants their child genetically modified to be deaf, is it not evil? I would also point out that any genetic modifications would really come before the fertilization of the egg and would come by guaranteeing certain results. Any modification after fertilization is certainly a greater moral hazard no matter what justifications you think you have.

Quote from x0mbiec0rp
Really? You don't think that every cell in a body has a complete set of human genetic information? Because they definitely do. Right there in the nucleus. They simply don't utilize it, and function primarily using RNA. Now, anyways, onto the organ argument. Remember, while your argument doesn't take organs into account, mine does. Say I'm killed by a murderer. If I have donated a kidney to save a man's life, does that mean the 'murderer' can't be charged with murder, since a part of my unique genetic code lives on in that other man?


Yes and no. It has all the DNA within the nucleus, but they aren't active and thus do not produce to RNA copies of the DNA. A zygote is wholly different from a kidney. A kidney does not have a distinct DNA of its own, it has your specific combination of active DNA.

A kidney cannot grow into an infant and then later into an adult no matter how long you wait.

Quote from x0mbiec0rp
A zygote is an incomplete human. So is a fetus. It cannot survive on its own, just like my kidney. My kidney has its own unique genetic code, now, and so does the fetus/zygote. Neither can currently reproduce, yet each could be used to form a new human being if utilized properly.


An infant is an incomplete human. An infant cannot survive on its own nor can it reproduce. Are you going to tell me it isn't human? As I said, zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, and adult all are nothing but stages in development. It is still the same individual and it is human throughout its life.

Quote from x0mbiec0rp
Yet, in the law, some people have these rights removed. Children don't have the complete set of these rights, nor do many mental patients, and many people otherwise incapacitated in some way. You have made an assumption that isn't necessarily verified by the law, especially in cases where an individual has less than optimal mental or physical capabilities.


There are many laws that violate one's rights, doesn't make them right. Be it, child, or mental patient, they all have their right to life. A child by extension has their right to property and liberty via their parents. Surely you do not want to argue that a parent should be allowed to kill their child, no matter their age.

Quote from x0mbiec0rp
Sure it does. It's just defective. Now considering humanity is, from an evolutionary perspective, the results of countless cell defects that turned out beneficial, I think it's perfectly fair to argue that these cancer cells are human. The question is, much like an unborn child, at what point can we draw the line?


Line? The cancer cells are still your cells with your DNA.

Quote from x0mbiec0rp
Alright then, let's write a sequel metaphor instead. Instead of throwing the kidnapped victim out of the plane, the two of us finish our flight, after which I feed, clothe, and house the victim, and proceed to brainwash him or her with a new set of principles and way of thinking. Twenty years later, I release him or her back into the world, and continue to monitor his or her actions. Wow, this metaphor makes it sound like it might be an even worse crime to give birth and raise a child. I think you might need a better one.


Don't want a child? Be responsible instead of killing the child when you screw up.

Last edited by harmonious at 11:27 pm, Nov 7

Telengard
Post #225874
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Radical Dreamer
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11:28 pm, Nov 7 2008
Posts: 42


This is a difficult issue for me on a personal level, and a very controversial one. I can't believe this thread has lasted as long as it has without exploding. I'll try to treat it with the seriousness and respect that it deserves, but please understand that this is not an college research paper. (Disclaimer: I'm no expert, especially on this!)

As a conservative with liberal ideals and strong libertarian leanings (yes, I'm an oxymoron) my primary concern is that the government stay the hell out of my life. I'd like to extend that same protection from government interference to all my fellow citizens of the USA, including prospective mothers.

However, we do have a government and I think that's because we need it to perform a few legitimate functions so that we can have an orderly and somewhat peaceful society. One of those few legitimate functions would be to punish murderers and prevent murder when possible. If murder can be defined as the intentional killing of one human being by another human being, then I suppose that should apply to abortion as well.

Considering the, hopefully rare, case of a woman who finds herself unwillingly pregnant, one has to wonder what circumstances could possibly lead her to such a state. Contraception has existed for at least hundreds of years in one form or another, and these days we have methods of contraception which are effective most of the time.

Women who choose to ignore the cornucopia of information and methods to prevent pregnancy should probably just bear with it for 9 mos. and then get their problem permanently fixed. Adoption agencies have existed for longer than I can remember, and there are many qualified and willing parents who will bless you for your choice to give them your child. If it's necessary to involve the court to see to it that it happens, then so be it. At least that child's life has been preserved, and the mother can go back to her reckless and self destructive lifestyle afterwards, with no further consequence to herself or anyone else.

Considering the cases of rape, incest, or the life of the mother being jeopardized by the somewhat traumatic experience of giving birth, it seems to me that she should be helped in the best way possible as determined by her doctor. She's also free to seek council from the family members, lawyers, and clergy of her choosing, but that goes without saying.

I cannot fathom how we, as a society, could allow any woman who has already been a victim of rape to be forcibly restrained for 9 months until labor can be induced for her to give birth. For that reason, it seems to me that that should be the limit of the exceptions. The courts will just have to sort out exceptions as they happen.

Those are my thoughts, but remember I am no expert.

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magicbulletgirl
Post #225875
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11:35 pm, Nov 7 2008
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Quote
Don't want a child? Be responsible instead of killing the child when you screw up.


Hmmm... you know some people are responsible. They take pills, they use a condom, but their bodies are very fertile and when that condom rips, uh-oh, she's pregnant.
So this woman doesn't deserve the right to have an abortion though she was responsible?

The fact remains that unplanned children, no matter what the circumstances, are accidents. It says nothing about how responsible the people are before or after if they keep it or not.
In fact in your own life I'm sure you can find plenty of irresponsible moments so how dare you judge?


sweet despair
Post #225876 - Reply to (#225516) by kaerfehtdeelb
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Artificial Life
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11:47 pm, Nov 7 2008
Posts: 1592


Quote from kaerfehtdeelb
In certain circumstances. Like if it was rape, incest, or a danger to the woman's life.

Otherwise not, you shouldn't destroy a possible life just because you don't want it.


wut he said. u cant say u want to kill the baby cuz u dont want it theres plenty of birthcontrol out there! or give it up 4 adoption... its not the babys fault!

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Sijy
Post #225892 - Reply to (#225865) by Rob1988
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Wakasensei
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12:17 am, Nov 8 2008
Posts: 332


Quote from Rob1988
If it isn't part of her body then surely she has the right to get rid of the foreign parasite? shy


False Dichotomy.

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shaggievara
Post #225893 - Reply to (#225865) by Rob1988
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12:19 am, Nov 8 2008
Posts: 1901


Quote from Rob1988
Quote from IMustBeInsane
A) I don't think a baby is just another part of a womans body

If it isn't part of her body then surely she has the right to get rid of the foreign parasite? shy



All babies are parasites. They are like second generation amoebas. mad All funny shaped and allegedly soft.

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Post #225913 - Reply to (#225786) by harmonious
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Midnight Rooster
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1:51 am, Nov 8 2008
Posts: 238


Quote from harmonious
The government is suppose to be there to protect everyone's life, liberty, and property. Does it simply not become murder when the victims cannot defend or speak for themselves?

This isn't true. It is up to the people to decide what the government is for.


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