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Believing in God

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Poll
The Existence of God?
Yes.
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Maybe.
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HaremOfClaymoreGirls
Post #22604
Member

12:37 am, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 2


religion = another form of slavery of your conscious mind

The way I see it: Religion bring a lot of troubles AND somewhat good things (art, newton believe in god, somewhat Einstien). But anyway I don't see any atheist group going around killing people in the name of religion or acting like Rev Jim Jones and say "hey boys and girls! want some cynide koolaid?"

I guess my view is whether or not you're religious doesn't matter as long as you respect the people around you it's all that matter. (Respect in OPINION too is very important for people that tend to overlook this) Religions just diversify people and that can be a good thing but it also cause huge HUGE conflicts. I personally know a lot of wonderful Christians,Jews, Budhists out there and just because I don't agree on their views doesn't mean I'm going to hell or we're going to bomb the fuck out of each other.

So in conclusion I guess there may be a god and I probably am agnostic or maybe just atheist but I believe in Karma. But at the end of the day I can be sure of one thing:
I HAVE A HAREM of Sexy claymore girls (for a username biggrin ).

Lukannon
Post #22629
Member

4:19 am, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 48


Quote
Who said i fabricated anything? Does the bible portray a negative outlook of God? hell no! instead it boosts him up. The "Savior". he blesses those that believe in him. oh really? is there proof of this besides scribblings of undocumented past? there is no point in trying to validate the bible. i mean really. for example Genesis. if there was no one alive when the world was created, how was this part documented? Divine intervention? who says?

you have no proof and in turn try to attack my UNBLINDED logic.


Am I trying to 'validate' the Bible? No. What I am saying is that you saying 'this was just a plague' and 'oh, they left stuff out that could be explained by a plague' is baseless. 'It's a plague, but they didn't know, so they left stuff out, which is why it can be a plague.' Your scenario first requires believing there is no God, and second, it requires believing that somehow the words 'an angel of death came and struck down all the firstborns' means 'a plague came and they made a fairy tale.'

Do I have proof? No. But not only do you not have proof for your story, it's baseless. You may be unblinded, and you may be speaking logically, but you have no foundation FOR you logic, which makes it illogical.

Quote
i think you are the one that is misinterpreting "God". According to your beliefs this God punishes people and interacts with humans on a whim based on his favorites.That is what is shown everywhere in the bible. instead of letting things play out naturally God interferes. Can you honestly say to me that according to the "FACTS" displayed in your holy book that God doesn't discriminate? can you say that he isn't biased? can you say that he is fair? the answer to all this is NO. Prove otherwise. Of course you are going to say i am wrong right? Again of course with no basis.

Furthermore this God intervening is a bit unexplainable. the Israelites are "His people". I scoff at this notion. You're telling me that this God you keep defending picked out a specific race of descendants and decided they are better and have a higher priority over the others races? don't deny my statement, you did say the were his "chosen people"


Did I say he didn't discriminate? I'm fairly sure I didn't, but I suppose I could be wrong.

Anyway. Let's go back to the basics.

In the beginning, God made Adam. Then God favored Abel because he loved God more than Cain. Then God favored Seth after Cain bashed in Abel's head. Then God favored nobody because they were all little jerks. Then he favored Noah because he was righteous and God-fearing, and killed off all the little jerks, and promised never to do it again. This was his first covenant.

After this, God came up to Abraham and told him 'hey, dude, if you pack up your stuff and travel to a random place out somewhere, someday, you'll have as manyd descendants as there are stars in the sky and grains of sand on the beach.' So Abraham, then called Abram, packed up everything and went with nothing more than God's word. And when Abraham finally had a son at the strapping young age of 100 or so, God tells him to sacrifice his only child. 'Well, okay' says Abraham.

After this, God intervenes and says 'your faith is great, blahblah.' Then came Isaac and Jacob and the twelve sons of Israel and Egypt and blahblahblah.

So what was the point of that story? The point is that God's people, the Jews, were bound to him and him to them by the covenant he made to Abraham. They were God's people not because God said 'hey, you're the dudes that I'm going to save, hooray!' but because Abraham justified himself through faith. God didn't pick Abraham. God tested Abraham, and Abraham passed with flying colors, and because of that, the Jews were his people.

Now. Let's say you are in a room of people. And in that room is your family. Now let's say you decide to leave that room of people, and the other people are forcing your family to stay. Soon after, they begin beating them. You have a gun in your hand. What do you do? Oh, yeah, you also promised your family that they would prosper and live long lives, and for the purposes of this hypothetical scenario, your promises are worth as much as your life.

Quote
This is very hypocritical to this "fair and just God that frankly has no right to intervene with daily life and picks sides on his whim.


Who are you to say what God has a right to do and what he doesn't have a right to do? If God created us, the earth, and the whole universe, if we owe our existence to him, why would he somehow not have the right to intervene in our daily lives? I don't understand your reasoning.

As for 'fair and just...' Understand that 'fair and just' means 'killing off everybody on this earth/abandoning them to hell.' By 'virtue' of being human and sinners, we deserve to die. But God already made a covenant that he'd never again perpetrate genocide aimed at the entire human race, and beyond that, he offered his son that if we believed in him and trusted in him to be our savior, we could still escape hell.

But that's not the point. And I've already discussed the 'whim' bit.

Quote
how is my logic wrong? i never said it had to be explained by science you assumed that yourself. i stated the fact that the story possibly isn't even true.


I never said 'you believe you have to be right.' I was dealing with your logic, which relies on it needing to be explained by science.

I think that's what I meant, anywho.

Quote
do you even have any logic? do you know what logic is? An angel coming to kill the first born child of a whole race is a FABRICATED STORY with NO BASE. prove to me other wise. you can't can you. oh wait you can quote the bible right? *cough*


Prove to me that it is a fabricated story, and then I'll have need of a base. But you can't do that either. I can't prove God exists, but you can't prove he doesn't. We are at an impasse, and nothing makes my or your scenario superior.

Quote
If i recall correctly there were Slaves in America as it developed. God didn't come down on the whites that lived here with a plague or a curse. why not? let me guess. cause blacks aren't his chosen people, right? how was the situation any different from then and biblical times? and don't get into specifics like one picked cotton and one built pyramids or some bull. cause frankly the situations were the same. only different is one is written in a book as his "chosen people" and the other wasn't.


Did God make a covenant with the 'father' of the black race because of the father's outstanding faith? Did God need a people to carry his laws and message and allow it to endure until he sent his son?

The situations were similar, but not really the same at all.

Quote
not fair correct? discriminatory correct? makes no sense correct?


Incorrect.

Quote
let me ask you this. ever been camping? ever told stories whether fables or true? ever told someone about an incident that happened but left out a piece of information? how about adding something to make yourself look better?

i am 100% sure you have done a few of those things i have said above. everyone has.


Of course. Except God, if you believe in him.

Quote
Frankly put there isn't anything to support these deeds of the bible but the bible itself. That in turn makes it unreliable.


I'm not going to shoot myself in the ass by pulling some science crap out of the back of my head that I read on a whim three years ago or summat, but I will say this:

A) Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Old Testament hasn't changed for a long, long time. This isn't directly dealing with your point.

B) Supposedly, Roman records prove the existence of Jesus Christ, that he was crucified, that his body disappeared three days later, that guards were indeed posted, and that his apostles fled and later returned to preach a gospel they knew they would be killed for.

C) If we assume from B that the New Testament is correct(a little bit more on that in a bit), the Old Testament is also by necessity correct.

If Roman records do indeed prove those things, it's certainly strong evidence that the events depicted in the Gospels did happen. What could make a man who previously denied knowing Jesus at all return to preach a message for Jesus that he knew he'd die for?

Quote
It is quite obvious where you stand on the matter since you hold everything in the bible as "Truth". it'd be nice if you opened your eyes a bit.


I'm trying, but I'm quite sleepy. none

'K, no. I'd say 'supposedly' before everything, because I have doubts about the Bible myself, but not only is that a hassle, you brought the direction of the argument onto my terms, that is, assuming that the Bible was at least partly true.

Quote
eek. i came off as an assho*e again. sry


Doesn't really matter. It'd be nice if people didn't get worked up, but maybe I'm just too cold.

Varna
Post #22637 - Reply to (#22629) by Lukannon
user avatar
Member

5:24 am, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 267


again you read but didn't understand. all you keep doing is quoting things i say and throwing in bible quotes. i don't understand how you can't get a simple concept through your head.

"baseless" means having no base or foundation.stop mentioning a word that you don't understand. my base for my view and what i said has to do with the bible having no real proof to support paranormal in the stories. Scratch that i will focus on the old testament, since you can say that Jesus did exist and was crucified. not that this proves the stories of any miracles. But as you have already mentioned you believe because one part is true all parts are. i guess you have never heard of a lie before. perfect world right?

Abraham. haha. been there heard that. who was with Abraham when this covenant was made? who wrote this? how was this story passed down? <_<
Furthermore this covenant still shows God playing favorites and intervening in human life."You worship me so i will use my powers to bless your family. yayie!". This bias is pointed out by the bible plain as day. Frankly it is unjust in black and white terms. Abrahams descendants were in no way better than other people. humans have the same value regardless of who their father or mother is.

you comparing the Abraham situation to a family is completely misguided. cause according to your statements yet again you are saying that God doesn't see us all as equals. in which case why would he send his son to die for everyone? makes no sense if he has favorites right?

a real metaphor would be saying god is a human. he saw two piles of ants. he found one pile cute. and when they succumbed to the strength of the other he decided to harm their enemies because of a promise he made. this in turn goes with my next point of God having no right to interfere in human lives. you say who am i to say this?

lets say the bible is correct for this answer and there is God etc

who the fuck do you think i am? A generation of a creation that was made to live on earth. FURTHERMORE this creation along with all the other creations has the right to choose how they live their life from everyday tasks like food to eat to who they will attack out of rage. your God intervening totally negates the natural order of his creations having the choice of how to live their lives. basically what you are saying is that God can be two-faced. right? He can do what he wants with us since he is the creator. at the same time like currently in the world he can claim ignorance and not directly intervene with a show of power. hypocritical by all accounts. your God is supposed to be watching over us as we live a Sinful life in the world,not passing Judgment before Judgment day. impatient are we?

lets go here. the times may have advanced technologically so but, nothing else has changed. there are still wars. people are still raped. people still go against "God's" teachings. ETC .so why doesn't he demonstrated his love in the world today? its been many years since the time of Abraham. which means there are a lot more descendent's. are his descendants really that blessed compared to others. not really.

I have shown my reasons *cough* aka *cough* base(foundation) for my statements. now you tell me. what is the real reason for the bible, its base? fact is, the bible is man made. and it has human intentions behind its set up and the stories included in it. i hardly think you can accuse me of fabricating this. unless it was God himself that made the bible and handed it to the world.

also its nice how you assume that because i state certain things that i don't believe there is a God(of sorts). i never once stated this in any posts. i attack the bible, the stories and its credibility. none of which i support. on that note i happen to find a higher existence more acceptable to believe than scientific theories.

Frankly put.
your bible is "baseless" unless you include itself, which you can't. This in turn practically negates EVERYTHING you have said considering it is all bible quotes.

kthx bye.

________________
HUBBY of DUBBY
ZeroLink
Post #22658
user avatar
Member

8:19 am, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 13


Wow you guys get worked up over this dont you I dont believe in the god's of the known religions I just cant believe in what they say I do believe that there is something but I dont know what it is but on that account it is each persons choice as to what they want to believe I have no say in anyone elses life unless they ask me for my thoughts on something they are doing or thinking about. So i dont care what anyone believes as long as they dont try and push it off on me.

Lukannon
Post #22669
Member

1:12 pm, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 48


Quote
again you read but didn't understand. all you keep doing is quoting things i say and throwing in bible quotes. i don't understand how you can't get a simple concept through your head.


If we're arguing the terms of the Bible, obviously I'm going to be using the Bible. It's common sense. Or do you mean using the Bible to back up the Bible?

Anyway, calm down. Anybody can say 'you read but don't understand' if it's not going your way. Just wait and see how it turns out.

Quote
"baseless" means having no base or foundation.stop mentioning a word that you don't understand. my base for my view and what i said has to do with the bible having no real proof to support paranormal in the stories.


You have no proof to disprove it. Your 'view' is based entirely on 'this is false or misleading,' but you can't prove it's false, so why does it matter? If we are at an impasse, this point is null and void.

Quote
Scratch that i will focus on the old testament, since you can say that Jesus did exist and was crucified. not that this proves the stories of any miracles. But as you have already mentioned you believe because one part is true all parts are. i guess you have never heard of a lie before. perfect world right?


Obviously you don't grasp my reasoning. I'll quote myself here.

[quote=LukannonIf Roman records do indeed prove those things, it's certainly strong evidence that the events depicted in the Gospels did happen. What could make a man who previously denied knowing Jesus at all return to preach a message for Jesus that he knew he'd die for?[/quote]

If the Gospels are true, by necessity, the Old Testament is also true.

Quote
Abraham. haha. been there heard that. who was with Abraham when this covenant was made? who wrote this? how was this story passed down? <_<


-\(o__o)/- Who was there to disprove it?

Quote
Furthermore this covenant still shows God playing favorites and intervening in human life."You worship me so i will use my powers to bless your family. yayie!". This bias is pointed out by the bible plain as day. Frankly it is unjust in black and white terms. Abrahams descendants were in no way better than other people. humans have the same value regardless of who their father or mother is.


Wrong. It wasn't 'hey, this d00d likes me, I'll take care of him and his descendants,' it was 'hey, this d00d chooses to trust totally in me, I'mma reward him for his faith.' It didn't have to be Abraham. Had it been anyone else who showed the same faith, I'm fully confident that God would've done the same for them. But apparently, nobody else did.

God chose the Jews for Abraham's sake. Not the Jews' sake. Nothing made them better; they were set apart by the laws they followed, but they weren't necessarily better than the surrounding people.

Quote
you comparing the Abraham situation to a family is completely misguided. cause according to your statements yet again you are saying that God doesn't see us all as equals. in which case why would he send his son to die for everyone? makes no sense if he has favorites right?


God broke down the barriers between Jews and Gentiles with his son sent. God never promised 'I will never ever save these pagans.' The fact that he sent his son for everyone should show that he doesn't play favorites unnecessarily. Again, you're misconstruing the circumstances to further your point.

And do you think you value your family only as much as a stranger?

Quote
a real metaphor would be saying god is a human. he saw two piles of ants. he found one pile cute. and when they succumbed to the strength of the other he decided to harm their enemies because of a promise he made. this in turn goes with my next point of God having no right to interfere in human lives. you say who am i to say this?


Wrong. Individual human lives don't really have meaning, but humans were created to walk alongside God as near-equals. Would you kill yourself for some ants?

Quote
who the fuck do you think i am? A generation of a creation that was made to live on earth. FURTHERMORE this creation along with all the other creations has the right to choose how they live their life from everyday tasks like food to eat to who they will attack out of rage. your God intervening totally negates the natural order of his creations having the choice of how to live their lives.


What are you talking about? You don't have a RIGHT to do anything because you exist. If it's assumed that the God depicted in the Bible exists, he GAVE you your rights AND your life. 'Natural order?' Don't make me laugh.

Until you can present me a logical basis for thinking 'we have rights beyond what God gives us and our lives are our own, not God's,' then you can't use this point.

Quote
basically what you are saying is that God can be two-faced. right? He can do what he wants with us since he is the creator. at the same time like currently in the world he can claim ignorance and not directly intervene with a show of power. hypocritical by all accounts. your God is supposed to be watching over us as we live a Sinful life in the world,not passing Judgment before Judgment day. impatient are we?


What are you talking about? If you trust in the words of missionaries and who knows who else, God DOES show himself with some regularity. Not only that, why should God follow some sort of pattern like 'if I do this, I HAVE to do this' because you say so? There is no hypocrisy, because God never claimed ignorance, nor did he say 'from here until the end, I will not touch this world ever again.' You have no BASE from calling him a hypocrite except your extrapolation.

And how is intervening passing Judgment? I don't understand why such a jump is automatic and guaranteed.

Quote
lets go here. the times may have advanced technologically so but, nothing else has changed. there are still wars. people are still raped. people still go against "God's" teachings. ETC .so why doesn't he demonstrated his love in the world today? its been many years since the time of Abraham. which means there are a lot more descendent's. are his descendants really that blessed compared to others. not really.


God broke down the barriers between Jews and Gentiles when he sent in Jesus Christ. Which is, incidentally, the focal point of his love. Understand, according to Christian doctrine, we are ALL supposed to go to hell. Not one of us can get into heaven on our own merits. God, in a show of mercy, gave up his son so that if we trusted in him, he would take the burden of our sins and our punishment for us that we could go to heaven.

Is 'love' guaranteeing a life of security and satisfaction regardless of what you do? Do you think a king or judge is being just if he doesn't punish a person when he sins? You, like many other people, misunderstand God's love. It's not a foolish, sappy love that makes him want to guarantee that we never, ever, ever get hurt. It's a just, perfect love, that makes him want us to join him in heaven, but that allows room for justice.

Now, whether all that's true remains to be seen, but you misconstruing what God is doesn't really further your case.

Quote
I have shown my reasons *cough* aka *cough* base(foundation) for my statements.


Apparently. Btw, generally, it's *coughstatementcough*.

Quote
now you tell me. what is the real reason for the bible, its base? fact is, the bible is man made. and it has human intentions behind its set up and the stories included in it. i hardly think you can accuse me of fabricating this. unless it was God himself that made the bible and handed it to the world.


Men scribed it. Who wrote it? It's probably the biggest point of contention between the church and atheists.

The answer is God, yes. It's called 'divine inspiration.' A necessary facet of the Christian faith.

Quote
also its nice how you assume that because i state certain things that i don't believe there is a God(of sorts). i never once stated this in any posts. i attack the bible, the stories and its credibility.


If you attack the Bible, you can only attack the existence of the God depicted in the Bible. Whether you believe there IS a God or not doesn't matter, because the God we're discussing is the Bible's God.

Quote
none of which i support. on that note i happen to find a higher existence more acceptable to believe than scientific theories.


...Wait, what? Wasn't it you who said 'mass energy theory or God, mass energy theory's more believable?'

I suppose not. Ah well.

Quote
Frankly put.
your bible is "baseless" unless you include itself, which you can't. This in turn practically negates EVERYTHING you have said considering it is all bible quotes.


No, because the thing is, you are arguing against the Bible's God. By necessity, I HAVE to quote the Bible. What, am I supposed to say, 'well, according to Atheist study #136, God doesn't exist, so this argument is meaningless?'

Again. The New Testament is not baseless, and if you accept that as true, then the Old Testament by default and extension is also true.

Quote
kthx bye.


You're welcome.

Varna
Post #22672
user avatar
Member

2:37 pm, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 267


Erroneous

read but don't understand has to do with not going my way? who says it isn't? and "not going my way" in no way relates to what i am saying.

you state things that contradict your whole argument against me.

we don't have rights besides what God gives us? and then you tell me to prove that we do have the choice on how we live our lives? that is automatically proven by us living on earth WITHOUT God there to lead us. we have no meaning? so why does the bible focus on God's love and trying to save us? oh forgot that didn't you? we are supposed to walk with him as near equals? i scoff at that notion. first off we dont have these paranormal abilities that God is depicted as having. second God never LIVED on earth. he watched over it.
Furthermore you say i must prove that we have the right to live our own lives? who says we don't? God? oh wait that is coming from your bible which is baseless correct? you said that since the Gospels have to do with people who were real that everything in the bible must be true. This is a childish concept on it's own that has no logic behind it. "Default" and "extension" has no logic behind it. that is a misconception that because one thing is true all must be true.

Sarah is strong. men are strong. Sarah is stronger than everyone in the village thus by "default" and "Extension" Sarah is a man. vague and stupid no? just like the logic behind Default and Extension of the New to Old testament. ESPECIALLY when the only thing proven to be true about the deeds in the new testament is that the names are of people who lived during that time. i can make up a story about Bush and may other Popular people who will be recorded in history. that doesn't mean it is a true story.

Bottom Line
it is not me who has to disprove the bible. its the bible that has to prove itself. you have come to some weird conclusion that because a compilation of stories was given to the public that it is true and anyone who disagrees with it needs to disprove it. you have said it yourself. This bible was written through "divine inspiration". oh really? you ever been given this divine inspiration? ever seen anyone have this happen in your presence. This "divine inspiration" means that you who believe in the bible believe in it blindly because a God who hasn't shown himself at all SUPPOSEDLY had men write his word. of course this god just happens to be the SAME one that the men wrote about. wow....that sure makes for some good evidence right?

furthermore. the bible was made. this is true. the bible was made by man. this is also true. the God in the bible has shown himself to people besides the ones in the stories. oh wait that is false. my bad for not understanding a fabricated story is false. you got me...oh wait. that has to do with your statements doesn't it. wow. no way.

So far all you have shown is that you take everything in the bible for Gold, hands down. There is no reasoning behind this. you just have faith that everything in it is correct. all i am saying is that there is no logic behind this. HENCE why the word FAITH comes up as the basis for religious beliefs. Don't take it out on me that you are gullible enough to believe a man made story about an Alien. before you get pissed about the word alien, look it up first. *yawn*

Quote
.Wait, what? Wasn't it you who said 'mass energy theory or God, mass energy theory's more believable?'

I suppose not. Ah well.


i don't think i said mass energy theory... confused ...welcome to prove me wrong. I'm sure i have stated against both God and Evolution on this forum. In any case my personal beliefs have nothing to do with my logical beliefs. Contradictory they are but it is perfectly feasible.

Frankly i am gonna stop here. cause all we have done is go around in circles with me stating the bible doesn't have 100% proof of its deeds or the depicted God. and you stating that i am wrong because God did things(even though you never witnessed it).

________________
HUBBY of DUBBY
Lukannon
Post #22682
Member

4:53 pm, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 48


Quote
read but don't understand has to do with not going my way? who says it isn't? and "not going my way" in no way relates to what i am saying.


Don't judge the debate before it's over. 'Reading but not understanding' to you may simply be 'you're wrong' to me.

Quote
you state things that contradict your whole argument against me.


I welcome you to try and prove it.

Quote
we don't have rights besides what God gives us? and then you tell me to prove that we do have the choice on how we live our lives? that is automatically proven by us living on earth WITHOUT God there to lead us.


Apparently, you've misunderstood my statement.

What I mean is not 'God must tell us what to do, we can only do what God tells us,' it's 'we don't have the right to tell God 'butt out.'

Quote
Until you can present me a logical basis for thinking 'we have rights beyond what God gives us and our lives are our own, not God's,' then you can't use this point.


You say 'well, God's not telling us what to do right now, obviously we can do what we want.' And that's true, to an extent, but MY point was that 'we don't have the right to exclude God from guiding our lives when he chooses,' which was in response to YOU saying that God doesn't have the right to intervene in our lives.

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we have no meaning? so why does the bible focus on God's love and trying to save us? oh forgot that didn't you?


Why does 'God saving you' make your life meaningful? As I said. As far as I can tell, individual human lives have no meaning. One could argue that our meaning is to glorify God, but we are ALIVE. There is no meaning to us being alive, we just are.

Quote
we are supposed to walk with him as near equals? i scoff at that notion. first off we dont have these paranormal abilities that God is depicted as having. second God never LIVED on earth. he watched over it.


Wrong.

A) Paranormal abilities don't even matter. 'Equal' did not mean 'like God in every way.' If a king talks to one of his subjects as an equal, does that mean the subject has the same authority as a king?

B) God did indeed walk on Earth, assuming we're still arguing on Biblical terms. I'll even quote a few direct passages: Genesis 3:8 "Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day..."

Genesis 5:22 "After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters."

Genesis 5:24 "Enoch walked with God, then he was no more, because God took him away."

Quote
Furthermore you say i must prove that we have the right to live our own lives? who says we don't? God? oh wait that is coming from your bible which is baseless correct?


Wrong. You claim 'God has no right to interfere in our daily lives.' My response was 'Why would he not? Prove that you have the right to not be interfered with." And your response is now 'Why should I have to?" The original argument stemmed from a context in which it is assumed that yes, God exists as stated in the Bible. If he does, then why would he have no right to interfere in our lives?

When YOU are the one bringing the argument onto Biblical terms, don't rag on me for using the Bible just because you can't.

Quote
you said that since the Gospels have to do with people who were real that everything in the bible must be true. This is a childish concept on it's own that has no logic behind it. "Default" and "extension" has no logic behind it. that is a misconception that because one thing is true all must be true.


Wrong again. You apparently still have not grasped my logic. Roman records supposedly prove blahblahblah(here's the important part) that after he was crucified, Jesus' disciples fled, denying all knowledge of Jesus, and later returned to preach the gospel, knowing they would be martyred.

What do you think could possibly make a man do such a thing? To spread a message, KNOWING that he would be killed for it? Riches? Power? In exchange for guaranteed death? I don't think so. While it's not conclusive evidence at all, it certainly provides a strong argument.

If you believe from there that the events depicted in the gospels are true, then by extension, the events depicted in the Old Testament MUST be true, because the Gospels rely entirely on the Old Testament's events. If Jesus is the Messiah, then that follows that there must be a basis for calling him the Messiah. And other stuff, but I won't bother if you can't grasp the logic in the first two paragraphs.

Now, does this mean I am necessarily right, and that the Bible is necessarily true? No. However, it does invalidate your current argument.

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Sarah is strong. men are strong. Sarah is stronger than everyone in the village thus by "default" and "Extension" Sarah is a man. vague and stupid no?


Your example is rather flawed.

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just like the logic behind Default and Extension of the New to Old testament. ESPECIALLY when the only thing proven to be true about the deeds in the new testament is that the names are of people who lived during that time. i can make up a story about Bush and may other Popular people who will be recorded in history. that doesn't mean it is a true story.


I've been using 'your' weapon, logic, to make my claims, and you have misinterpreted the entire thing. The only thing proven to be true about the New Testament? It also supposedly proves that Jesus was crucified, that his body disappeared three days later, that Herod tried to kill him as a baby by mass infanticide, blahblahblah. Quite a bit more than a name.

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it is not me who has to disprove the bible. its the bible that has to prove itself. you have come to some weird conclusion that because a compilation of stories was given to the public that it is true and anyone who disagrees with it needs to disprove it.


Wrong. To disagree with it is fine, because I have no concrete proof that the Bible is true(although I explained what I do have above). However, neither does anyone disagreeing with it have proof. Therefore, we are at an impasse; the Bible can neither be stated to be false OR true. It's a matter of choice of belief. If I can't prove it, it is not false by default because you don't have any proof for your side either.

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you have said it yourself. This bible was written through "divine inspiration". oh really? you ever been given this divine inspiration? ever seen anyone have this happen in your presence. This "divine inspiration" means that you who believe in the bible believe in it blindly because a God who hasn't shown himself at all SUPPOSEDLY had men write his word. of course this god just happens to be the SAME one that the men wrote about. wow....that sure makes for some good evidence right?


Have you ever had the same inspiration as, say, a writer? If a writer writes 'I had inspiration,' do you automatically assume that what he says is false because you have never experienced a similar inspiration?

Do I know that the Bible is divinely inspired? No, I'm not. But that's what I choose to gamble my life on. If I lose, boohoo. What've I lost? If I win, I've got it made.

And everything else with relevance to this I've already posted, I believe.

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furthermore. the bible was made. this is true. the bible was made by man. this is also true.


At least to an extent, yes.

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the God in the bible has shown himself to people besides the ones in the stories. oh wait that is false. my bad for not understanding a fabricated story is false. you got me...oh wait. that has to do with your statements doesn't it. wow. no way.


You don't believe he's shown himself because you choose not to believe. Here's one debatable example, that I'm sure you're familiar with: Joan d'Arc, 15th century heroine, now canonized as a saint. Was she crazy? Was she truly divinely inspired? Who knows? Those who choose to believe believe, and those who choose not to believe do not believe.

And if you trust the words of missionaries, God is quite active in various third world countries. Do you trust them? There's no particular reason to besides the fact that they'd be horrible hypocrites if they were lying, but then, there's no particular reason to not believe them either...unless you've already made up your mind about God not existing.

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So far all you have shown is that you take everything in the bible for Gold, hands down. There is no reasoning behind this. you just have faith that everything in it is correct.


I have responded to this point multiple times. Apparently, you enjoy reading selectively. I won't be bothered to paraphrase or quote myself at the moment, because it appears to not be in the last ten posts.

EDIT: Ah, here it is. Luckily for me, it was on the same page. =3

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'K, no. I'd say 'supposedly' before everything, because I have doubts about the Bible myself, but not only is that a hassle, you brought the direction of the argument onto my terms, that is, assuming that the Bible was at least partly true.


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all i am saying is that there is no logic behind this.


And I've responded to it.

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HENCE why the word FAITH comes up as the basis for religious beliefs.


'Faith' does not mean 'blindly believe everything,' although it can for some people.

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Don't take it out on me that you are gullible enough to believe a man made story about an Alien. before you get pissed about the word alien, look it up first. *yawn*


a·li·en (ā'lē-ən, āl'yən) pronunciation
adj.

1. Owing political allegiance to another country or government; foreign: alien residents.
2. Belonging to, characteristic of, or constituting another and very different place, society, or person; strange. See synonyms at foreign.
3. Dissimilar, inconsistent, or opposed, as in nature: emotions alien to her temperament.

n.

1. An unnaturalized foreign resident of a country. Also called noncitizen.
2. A person from another and very different family, people, or place.
3. A person who is not included in a group; an outsider.
4. A creature from outer space: a story about an invasion of aliens.
5. Ecology. An organism, especially a plant or animal, that occurs in or is naturalized in a region to which it is not native.

Pick your poison.

And again, YOU are the one bringing it onto Biblical terms. What do you expect me to use to defend the Bible's God, Doctor Seuss?


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i don't think i said mass energy theory... confused ...welcome to prove me wrong. I'm sure i have stated against both God and Evolution on this forum. In any case my personal beliefs have nothing to do with my logical beliefs. Contradictory they are but it is perfectly feasible.


Hmm. Apparently, it was someone else, as I mentioned. It doesn't really matter.

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Frankly i am gonna stop here. cause all we have done is go around in circles with me stating the bible doesn't have 100% proof of its deeds or the depicted God. and you stating that i am wrong because God did things(even though you never witnessed it).


Wrong. What we've done is go around in circles with you putting words in my mouth and pretending as though you've accomplished something. If you're afraid to continue, or don't feel like continuing, please, be my guest, but understand that you can't claim victory or superiority if you're the one bowing out.

Stealth
Post #22684 - Reply to (#22682) by Lukannon
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5:17 pm, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 1036


Quote from Lukannon
Don't judge the debate before it's over. 'Reading but not understanding' to you may simply be 'you're wrong' to me.

I certainly hope it's over...

Quote from Varna
Frankly i am gonna stop here. cause all we have done is go around in circles...

Exactly

Quote from Lukannon
Wrong.[...] you can't claim victory or superiority if you're the one bowing out.

No you are WRONG, there is no such thing as victory here. The last one standing won't be getting a cookie. And you two better stop (or at least greatly calm down) before I have to lock this thread. And everybody has to bow out. All you have been doing was going around in circles and escalating things more and more. If you don't calm down, do not continue.
I really don't want to lock this thread. It's been a good activity boost to the forum.

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So predictable...
Varna
Post #22691
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Member

6:20 pm, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 267


@Lukannon

First off all i see plenty of lies. this whole argument you have said that i fabricate things etc.

hell the end of your last post you said i put words in your mouth. give me one example. you can't can you?

Alien. wow you said pick my poison. there are multiple definitions there that categorize him that way. you put your own foot in your mouth not me. should i quote them for you how about " A person from another and very different family, people, or place." no need for me to go on and prove a point that you already proved for me.

Joan of arc. i won't comment. no point debating that. there are religious views just as there are views of her being used to help everyone focus on one cause. don't bring in something to help you that you yourself question and can't support just like many others.

I am not lost at all when you mention Roman records. You have SaidRoman records prove jesus was real person. he was crucified. did i ever say this was false? no i stated that just because a piece of information in the bible is true that not all of it is.

Franky again you say i must prove that the bible is false but that reasoning is illogical. The bible is a compilation of stories that have some documented real characters. ok so jesus was crucified some things happened.

Lets put this in another way. I could take the people from the bible. fictional or not. write stories about them along with some things that may be true(like jesus crucified) and guess what. my book that i compile will be just as Credible as the bible itself. You may say that it isn't. why? because i wasn't "Divinely" inspired. that won't change the fact that in the occasion that i do write this story i will have some form of inspiration. That of course doesn't mean that it is a true story.

It is like the story of Mulan that Disney used to make money. The legend and the movie have similarities and differences. not all true not all false.


God must tell us what to do? that is assuming God is even real. but the fact is God doesn't tell us anything. you can't give one example of accountable times where God has shown himself and commanded a person and or a whole race to do something.

God saving doesn't relate to our lives being meaningful? oh really? if so then there would be no point in trying to save us. why do i say this? it is quite obvious that we hold some sort of meaning if this God you believe in wants us to be "saved" from the death that he says we deserve for being sinful. frankly your bible itself has already shown that our lives are meaningful. you walked into that one yourself.

and assuming he isn't real. who are you to say that ones life holds no meaning? there would be no point in living if there was no meaning to it.

again assuming he is real
Excluding God from our lives also has to do with OUR RIGHT to make CHOICES about how we live it. if this was not true then God wouldn't have given us an option. in other words we would just be his slaves. but as you have said, we are equal right? thus we have the option of not wanting to associate.
Get a grip bro.


Frankly, you have attacked me personally(with no evidence mind you) and not at all proved anything relating to your argument. you say i am wrong yet all you can say to prove this is that the bible says this and that. oh and because Jesus was recorded that everything else in the bible is factual.

i'm gonna be an asshole and give a pretty damn good example of this debate that is taking place. For you to finally see it through my eyes i'll pretend to be you in this example.


I read this book called "my journey to the moon". Written by Stephen Smith. In it John sprouts wings and flies to the moon. He built a civilization there and the book consists of stories about him using his powers and watching over his people. I believe John is just and real. His powers were shown through his Divine inspiration that let Stephen write this story. John has a right to do w/e he wants with the civilization since he is the creator. While no one alive has seen john, that doesn't mean the story is false. it is true unless proven otherwise, not the other way around. you don't know what you are talking about. you keep making up stuff with no evidence. You're wrong, I'm right,this is because it is a fact that Stephen is real and was inspired to write it, because John used his powers. plus there are documents that talk about john and show that he did live and disappear from the world. So in a Jist the book proves that John is real.

<_<
nuff said.


oh and sry to everyone else for escalating things. didn't mean to come off this way.

oh and FYI i am only respondng because of the comments Lukannon is making to purposefully make this go on. example
"Wrong. What we've done is go around in circles with you putting words in my mouth and pretending as though you've accomplished something. If you're afraid to continue, or don't feel like continuing, please, be my guest, but understand that you can't claim victory or superiority if you're the one bowing out."

these childish antics are getting on my nerves. again i was accused of something that has no proof and is in fact a lie.

Last edited by Varna at 6:30 pm, Jul 2

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HUBBY of DUBBY
ares6
Post #22692
user avatar
Member

6:23 pm, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 2896

Warn: Banned



Enough! I present to the jury new evidence!
The suppressed Gospels and Epistles of the original New Testament of Jesus the Christ
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/6516
http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/w#a2074

Now you may precede.
biggrin
Oh yeah, chaos.

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garz
Post #22703
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Member

7:40 pm, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 248


i belive in god
i have no reason i just belive

Orka_n
Post #22712
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Member

8:52 pm, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 89


I believe. o:

________________
"The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."
Zubz313
Post #22713
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Member

9:05 pm, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 246


Amen Brothers.

________________
Fear leads to the obedience of slaves, but love engenders the obedience of sons.
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vinceasuma
Post #22714
user avatar
Member

9:11 pm, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 1199


I thanks to Jebus for this enlightening thread. I am also like to thanks for the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Iraq/Afghan war.

Amen.

________________
Life is tough......but it's tougher if you're stupid.
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SeJun
Post #22715
Member

9:28 pm, Jul 2 2007
Posts: 12


People have been asking these kind of questions.
Why are there wars, violence, hatred, death, suffering, etc.?
Why does God allow such things if he is just and merciful?

It's called free-will.
He has provided us the decision to choose our own life.
Everything that is happening in the world is due to the choices we make.

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