banner_jpg
Username:     Password:      
News Article
New Poll - Ecchi Definition
This week's poll was suggested by Transdude1996. Where do you draw the line with the definition of ecchi? If you don't even know what it means, how are you a fan of manga? Even if you don't like it, you should at least know what it is! Go read its Wikipedia article!

You can submit poll ideas here
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903

Previous Poll Results:
Question: Opinion on groups that scanlate the first chapter of a series but then do nothing else for ages
Choices:
Not a good idea, but oh well - votes: 1014 (35.8%)
It's alright. Natural way of life - votes: 431 (15.2%)
Love it - votes: 111 (3.9%)
Hate it - votes: 1149 (40.6%)
No opinion - votes: 126 (4.5%)
There were 2831 total votes.
The poll ended: March 13th 2020

People don't like waiting
Posted by lambchopsil on 
March 14th 6:01am
Comments ( 43 )  
[ View ]  [ Add ]
Comments

» VawX on March 13th, 2020, 11:29pm

Subjectively I think Nudity is fine, but sex is too much but if we're going by the implementation it seems like Sex is fine as long as their privates are not shown since there are many instances where they show sex in ecchi manga mmm...

thread

» zarlan on March 14th, 2020, 4:41am

I went with "Anything more detailed than the basic outlines of the act is too vulgar", but I think it's a bit more complicated than any of the answers. Not massively complicated, but...
I'd say nudity is out. Typical anime/manga semi-nudity, with the outlines, but magically no nipples and "Ken/Barbie-crotch" and all that, is okay.
And as for sex.... if you don't actually see it or any of that (and it keeps the the no nudity rule, above), just the "outsides" of it... you pretty much just see that sex is happening... that's fine. If the sex is properly shown... then you're in porn (i.e. hentai) territory.

Naturally, these are my standards. (and, of course, the poll is about what we personally think)

Official Japanese standards, however, seem to be VERY different.
I remember when Valkyrie Drive: Mermaid came, and I gave the first episode a shot (despite misgivings that it might be far too fan-service-y, for my likings) ...and discovered that, despite not being labelled as porn, it clearly was.
After a quick search, I concluded that Japan apparently seems to classify what the West terms "hardcore porn" as porn ...whilst "softcore porn", (and I'd say the distinction is kinda pointless, when it comes to yuri, as in that case) is apparently not porn at all.
Very bizarre.

thread

» vigorousjammer on March 14th, 2020, 6:04am

I kind of have a combination of answers.

Nudity is fine, but sex is too much.
However, sex is fine as long as there isn't any visible nudity.

Basically, my opinion is you can have either sex or nudity in ecchi, but not both. If you have both, then it's hentai.
Also, if a series has some nudity except during the sex scenes, I still consider it ecchi.

For example, in Oku-san you sometimes see the main character or others topless, and sometimes they're completely nude but without much detail below the waist (such as in bathhouse scenes), but any sex that happens in the series happens out of view, usually with the focus being put on how uncomfortable other characters are with having to listen to Oku-san having sex with her husband.
Essentially, nothing in the series is intended to be hardcore pornography, and anything sexual is done with the focus of either teasing the reader, or to aid the comedy side of the series.

thread

» calstine on March 14th, 2020, 6:35am

Nudity is fine, but sex is too much. When I see the "ecchi" tag without an accompanying "adult," "smut" or "hentai" tag, I'm generally not expecting to see sex, no matter how non-graphic.

Ecchi is what I consider to be "fanservice when actual sex acts can't/won't be depicted," so it makes no sense to me why something that can be tagged as smut or hentai would just be tagged with ecchi instead. OTOH, mature and adult-rated series which have sex acts depicted in a non-pornographic way shouldn't have the ecchi/smut/hentai tags at all, I think. Sex alone doesn't make something pornographic - only the excessive focus on it in the story/by the characters and the way it's drawn and presented can determine that.

thread

» dreamer00013 on March 14th, 2020, 7:12am

I'll be honest. I hate echhi. I can't answer the poll, as essentially ecchi is all that's nsfw, and it really depends on how it's done. As it is, I'm tempted to say that anything that's more than I'll accept as readable ecchi should be hentai or adult, so well, outholding my vote on this one.

thread

» amy_levi on March 14th, 2020, 2:15pm

Many people obviously don't know that there's a difference between ecchi and hentai, at least in the west. So many uninformed people chose "There is no limit" or "sex is fine as long as their privates are not shown". Which are wrong answers for this question. Ecchi is usually not as explicit as hentai, and generally doesn't even show any sexual act.
So I think people should get a bit more informed before answering this question. But since the majority of users here are teens or young people who don't even bother getting informed, especially if it's about anything related to sex, it's hopeless. Sigh. 🙄

thread

» zarlan on March 15th, 2020, 3:13am

Quote from amy_levi
Many people obviously don't know that there's a difference between ecchi and hentai, at least in the west.

In Japan (i.e. in Japanese) there is ZERO difference.
Hentai, H, and ecchi are all the same thing. (and they aren't a manga/anime thing, but a general thing, covering everything, real/"live action" stuff, literature, and anything else, as well as manga/anime)
...and it's not the usual term, for what we (in "the West" ) would term "ecchi" or "hentai", in many cases.

thread

» Trimutius on March 14th, 2020, 4:34pm

I think the difference between ecchi and hentai is that hentai revolves around sex while ecchi not really around sex but more about innuendo. But if ecchi happens to have uncensored sex in couple of chapters there is no problem...
So there is no limit. Just context dependent.

thread

» residentgrigo on March 14th, 2020, 6:33pm

One of the worst polls we ever had with skewed answers that don´t make sense and a bait contribution by the OP of the question. The triple crown of trolling.

Here is what wiki gives us, that´s my answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecchi
Ecchi (エッチ, etchi, pronounced [et.tɕi]) is an often used slang term in the Japanese language for playfully sexual actions. As an adjective, it is used with the meaning of "sexy", "dirty" or "naughty"; as a verb, ecchi suru (エッチする or Hする) means “to have sex” or, as a noun, to describe someone of lascivious behavior. It is perhaps softer than the Japanese word ero (エロ from Eros), and does not imply perversion in the way hentai does. The word ecchi has been adopted by fans of Japanese media to describe works with sexual overtones. In Japanese, the word ecchi is often used to describe a person's conduct, but in fandom, it has come to be used to refer to softcore or playful sexuality, as distinct from the word hentai, which connotes perversion or fetishism. Works described as ecchi do not show sexual intercourse or genitalia, but sexual themes are referenced. Ecchi themes are a type of fan service, and can be found in most comedy shōnen and seinen manga and harem anime.

I can´t argue with any of this. I know it when I see it, etc.
You may notice that Japan has a different outlook on this as we used a word of their vocabulary that means one thing and somewhat changed it to apply it to comics. The same even applies to the words hentai and manga. Kinda.

@calstine Do not tag Ecchi with Smut or the 2 female demographics and do not tag Smut with the 2 male demographics. Both are the same tag, just with the gender demographics flipped.
Neither Ecchi nor Smut nor any of the 4 gender demographics go with Hentai, which is technically a form of publication of its own.
The only complication arises from all the (often Korean) webcomic pornos. They tend to run on webcomic sites that feature regular webtoon. Actual hentai doesn´t in Japan. Seinen/Josei + Adult seems right to me but you never really know. Nearly all of them are neither Ecchi nor Smut though. Just plain old porn.

TED talk over. Just remember the wiki link when you tag and it really ain´t hard to spot porn and differentiate from softcore porn. Your mother could do it. Hardly a manga only phenomenon too.

edit: @zarlan TED Talk - Revengeance Edition:
Your example isn´t considered porn outside of Japan either but it is pornographic, we can agree on that. (So Seinen + Adult.) Every Seinen/Josei manga out there can be bought by an underage person without problems and not just in Japan. Mostly. That why it's much more lucrative to run a Seinen magazine focused on sex manga (Hakusensha and Shonen Gahosha do just that) and just pretend that you aren´t a pornographer while (mostly) relying on actual hentai artists to fill such magazines. The Yaoi market says hello too and I never said that publishing needs to make a lick of sense. That´s why 2 out of 6 volumes of Aki Sora got a boot to the head but nothing changed in the end. Maybe one day but who even cares anymore in a world of digital distribution. See my pornwha notes and hello Pixiv. A .net site. Not a .jp site. BIG distinction right there. Mangaka now throw the uncensored pages of the (underage) genitalia they drew for their publishers on Pixiv, put a price on it and call it a day. I wonder how long till the hammer drops there... and how hard? I never said that publishing needs to make a lick of sense 😛 .

Then we have non-Japanese comics. The award-winning and bestselling Saga by Image has hardcore sex and closeups of genitalia in a way that porn can´t have in Japan without committing a crime. It came out in Japan. I wonder if they just pixeled the whole shebang?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Japan

thread

» Transdude1996 on March 14th, 2020, 11:18pm

Why is there so much autism in one post about a poll simply asking how far things have to go before you start sweating?

thread

» zarlan on March 15th, 2020, 3:39am

Quote from residentgrigo
skewed answers that don´t make sense and a bait contribution by the OP of the question

How so?
Granted, the OP is a troll, in general, but I don't really see any issues with this poll in particular. Certainly not the ones you mention. In fact your statement, here, doesn't make any sense, IMO.

Also, the quote you cite from Wikipedia (NOT "wiki"! Wikipedia!), doesn't really make sense.
It, in no way, reflects how it is actually used. (granted, it's about where we draw the line, how we personally define the terms, but... we need to at least be talking about roughly the same terms. We need to at least be speaking the same language)

"Ecchi" is used for non-porn, that has a bit of sexiness. A little innuendo, skimpy clothing, someone naked with fog/objects in the way of seeing the private parts... That kind of thing.
Nothing that could be counted as porn.
That would be hentai, after all.

"Hentai" is manga/anime porn.
The Japanese word hentai, connotes "perversion or fetishism", sure, but the English (or rather "Western" ) loan-word, i.e. the way the word is used in "the West", doesn't have any such connotations. It just indicates that it is Japanese drawn/animated porn.
This is how the terms are actually used.
(ass to where you draw the line between them... well, that's the topic in question, here)

...and remember:
This poll is about the terms "ecchi" and "hentai".
Not エッチ and 変態.
Quote
I know it when I see it, etc.

The Wikipedia article you are claiming to summarise with that statement, does not, in any way, suggest anything along the lines of "I know it when I see it".

That's certainly not the Japanese standard, BTW.
They always go with the letter of the law/rule. Even when it makes no sense ...and they typically don't fix the letter of the law/rule, to make it more sensible.
Quote
Do not tag Ecchi with Smut or the 2 female demographics and do not tag Smut with the 2 male demographics. Both are the same tag, just with the gender demographics flipped.
Neither Ecchi nor Smut nor any of the 4 gender demographics go with Hentai, which is technically a form of publication of its own.

Ehm...
Ecchi indicates that the work isn't pornographic. A bit of sexiness, suggestiveness, and the like, but nothing actually pornographic

Quote
Your mother could do it.

...
You clearly don't know my mother! (I envy you that, BTW)
Quote
Your example isn´t considered porn outside of Japan either

You're telling me that fully nude (vagina aside, admittedly) women, so fully exposed breasts, nipple and all, and full sex scenes (again, no showing of the vagina ...but aside from that...), isn't considered as porn?
(by that definition almost no lesbian porn, actually counts as porn, BTW)
...and how could you possibly claim that "Softcore Pornography" doesn't count as "Pornography"?
Quote
but it is pornographic

A work that is pornographic, is pornography.
By definition!
"Pornographic" doesn't mean "porn-ish". It means something that has a nature inherent of pornography ...or rather, pornography is a thing that is pornographic in nature.
Quote
I wonder if they just pixeled the whole shebang?

Nah, they'll just put some censor bars over the genitals.
That's apparently all they do.
Not that I get why they even do that, mind you. Not allowing the showing of genitals, in porn...
Japanese censorship laws, make no sense...

thread

» residentgrigo on March 15th, 2020, 5:31am

The most unproductive contribution yet came from zarlan´s 2nd post. Suprise? No. A bad look? Yes. Even the prudish MPAA would disagree with the assessment that softcore porn = porn. That´s how that definition came about. The gap between an X (now NC-17) and an R rating can be only a couple of frames after all but none of this is a problem with anime as the home video market and now streaming can go out as "Unrated" in the US.
The usual doc on the topic of the MPAA. 14 years old and hasn´t aged a day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Film_Is_Not_Yet_Rated
Such an institution doesn´t exist for the book and thus comic market. Neither in the US, not in Japan nor over here. That´s why the manga kiddy porn market managed to become such a Kraken.

I wonder where the responses will end up when the pages pile up at the end. The race to the bottom is on. Go for the gold! I at least got an active podium to educate on tagging practices and it´s nice to see a wiki article lead-in where every assessment is spot on. I was about to change "most" to something like often in can be found in most comedy shōnen and seinen but works as Gundam or Eva have Echi elements and those aren´t even comedies. Jump manga can´t live without it either. It really is "most". Japanese society has problems if I consider the average age of our anime heroines.

An actually interesting version of this question can be made. I´ll get on it one of these days.
I had to take a college course on what amounted to customer evaluation for a whole semester. One of the worst by a mile. Shudder. The final exam was making a poll (I chose the topic cinema for my group) and documenting it but you don´t even need to finish elementary school to notice how bizarre answers like Characters should be wearing (regular) clothes all the time are. A lack of grasp of the English language is equally apparent.
Long story short. Result graphs tell a story if you did it right and you can´t have contradicting answers. Now look at the near equal molehills on the left and the many contradictions. Lol. As in this made me laugh out loud in RL 🤣.

Edit: I just saw that linked doc is "unrated" as it got an NC-17 (it features footage from porn) on the first try but still made it on Netflix. Like I wrote. The web and digital distribution made the whole film (or game) rating debate a tad obsolete. The glut of pornhwa and the current uncensored hentai that is bypassing Japan´s criminal code is proof of that. The goose is cooked. Censorship of "art" today is more about appealing to certain markets (like China) than anything else.

I at least got where some of the angry parents who used to protest with my edgy entrainment came from. It seems today that all you see is violence in movies and sex on TV. But where are those good old fashion values on which we used to rely and all of that but the rather young, always male and suspiciously white Stormfront rejects of today who now took the "debate" over by taking any meaning out of the word censorship with missing vagina bones "discussion"... those are the devil. Our poll designer cares so much about so-called censorship that we get calls to dox people/sites from him on a regular basis hidden behind "censorship" dog whistles. Remember what this site had moderation? Me neither.

PS: Some, actually a lot, of the modern Ecchi manga draw the airbrushed nipples, anuses and the partial vulvas/penises back in for the print and the paid digital versions. Stuff like that is what needs to be factored into a coherent questionnaire on this topic. The whole thing is a convoluted moving target.

thread

» HikaruYami on March 15th, 2020, 5:37am

This is something for which I would've had a very different answer before studying the Japanese language.

But since I now know that "ecchi" just means "H" (it's literally their pronunciation of H), the idea that westerners make a delineation between "H-manga" and "ecchi manga" is just silly to me. H comes in degrees and basically just means perverted. The limits of what I would consider being okay in Weekly Shonen Jump ends around To Love Ru (the manga version; for those that only saw the TV anime, hahahahahah). But an outright porn doujinshi bought at comiket would still qualify as ecchi by Japanese standards (just... way moreso).

So my answer is There is no limit

Also, the Japanese wikipedia article on エッチ is a good read. They actually have a section dedicated to "usage of 「エッチ」in countries other than Japan" that from my perspective is their way of subtlely making fun of America for being stupid and misunderstanding their words 🙂

thread

» residentgrigo on March 15th, 2020, 6:43am

I do have On More Thing before the war on reality begins.
The English wiki article gives us this bit (it and the shorter Japanese entry line up well in their content but wiki isn´t that popular in Japan/Asia): Western usage
In Japan, oiroke manga (お色気漫画) is used to describe manga with very light or playful erotic content such as is found in shonen manga. In western nations though, ecchi has become the preferred term. The more explicit seijin manga (成人向け漫画, seijinmukemanga) are more likely to be referred to as hentai in the west. This does correlate to a similar distinction in Japanese. For instance, if a young woman were to call a young man e(t/c)chi, that might be construed as flirting, whereas hentai sounds more like condemnation.

So just like with the rest of the world. Softcore or hardcore porn to make it very basic.
"成人向け漫画" aka Adult Comic equals hentai. That´s why hentai mags often have "Comic" as part of the title. See, you never stop learning with me! 😉
This is, as my previous post explained, a differentiation in the way you publish. Adult Comics/Hentai are R-18, so a young looking person would need to show identification or would need to pass an age-gate on the web. The actual content on the page of an Oiroke/Ecchi manga can still equal or even surpass some hentai work so Japan and the rest of the anime/manga publishing worlds are mirrors of each other, with some variations in the wording. Definitions are fluid but all use them correctly. A bit like soccer and football. MU does things a bit differently due to the addition of the 2 "content warning" tags but not too much and due to the fact that genres get introduces in the mix.

PS: Wiki IP bans people if you mess with articles. I tripple dog dare you to put these into lockdown. Do it you animals. Dew it.

thread

» Transdude1996 on March 15th, 2020, 9:36am

Quote from residentgrigo
PS: Wiki IP bans people if you mess with articles. I tripple dog dare you to put these into lockdown. Do it you animals. Dew it.

Why?

Wikipedia has been exposed several times for being biased, a fact even the co-founder acknowledges, with this bias only being subverted the more changes a page undergoes (Which becomes a impossibility the moment a page goes into lockdown). Even then, the site admits, itself, that it's not a reliable source. If you're going to use a publicly editable database as a source, why not use something less biased like Infogalactic, or, even better, why not just use a primary source altogether?

Also, where's the humor in it? A Way Out (And it's related pages) only received it's vandalism because people saw it as a hilarious follow-up to Fares' "Fuck the Oscars" live shitpost.

thread

» zarlan on March 16th, 2020, 3:51am

Quote from residentgrigo
The most unproductive contribution yet came from zarlan´s 2nd post. Suprise? No. A bad look? Yes.

And here I thought you were a mostly sensible guy, yet you're writing this needlessly aggressive, ad hominem-ish (not actual ad hominem, but in the style of), and troll-y, crap?
...
I'm deeply disappointed.
Quote
Even the prudish MPAA would disagree with the assessment that softcore porn = porn. That´s how that definition came about.

Sofcore PORNOGRAPHY isn't pornography?
You're just simply wrong.
Look it up anywhere.
Any dictionary that has the term (some don't, for some bizarre reason. It's a common word, so it should be included. Must be prudishness, I suppose?), defines it as a type/class of porn. As does any encyclopedia (in the case of Wikipedia, both Softcore pornography and Pornography#Classification) or the like
...or any other source, you may think of.

As for "MPAA"...
I can only assume that you are referring to the Motion Picture Association of America, and/or their ratings system. (rather Americanocentric...)
What the hell they are supposed to have to do with any of this...
They don't mention or speak of porn, at all.
Just G, PG, PG-13, R, and NC-17.
Neither of these, being defined specifically or in part by the issue of porn (nudity, sex, and such things, do effect the ratings, but...), nor do they speak to, much less define, what is or isn't porn.

They may have some vague indirect affect, on public perceptions about what defines something as porn, but...
Quote
Such an institution doesn´t exist for the book and thus comic market.

So what?
We're not talking about institutions.
They are irrelevant, to this topic.
Quote
That´s why the manga kiddy porn market managed to become such a Kraken.

Manga kiddy porn doesn't effect or involve actual children, and there is no actual evidence, for any increase in real life assault, due to it.
That is why it is, and should be, allowed, regardless of how distasteful and disgusting it is.
If you allow banning stuff, just because you don't like it, without any valid and objective justification, such as genuine harm...
Then you have eliminated the whole concept of Free Speech/Expression.

Now the disturbingly large market for, more or less sexualized, loli stuff (though it should be noted that anime seems to be almost completely marketed, specifically, at a particular kind of otaku, rather than the Japanese, or even nerds/otaku, overall), the market for stuff like enjou kousai, places where you get to hang out with teenage girls ...the softcore/porn-ish magazines with genuine children...
Those are some serious problems.
Quote
but works as Gundam or Eva have Echi elements and those aren´t even comedies

Ecchi elements are very common. In anime, they are the norm, nowadays. (manga is still more diverse)
Quote
The web and digital distribution made the whole film (or game) rating debate a tad obsolete.

Just a reminder: This poll and discussion, has absolutely nothing to do with ratings.
Quote
[a whole bunch of stuff about the debates and conflicts, in regards to censorship and ratings and all that]

Just to remind you: None of that is actually relevant or related to this topic.
Quote
Our poll designer cares so much about/.../

As I said, and as you should know from my previous confrontations with him, I agree that he is a troll ...and have expressed surprise and disappointment at the fact that he is still allowed on the forum, after all the shit he's pulled ...but in the case of this, specific, poll and this, specific, discussion... (before you made that comment, that is. His latest post, here, however...)
Quote
PS: Some, actually a lot, of the modern Ecchi manga draw the airbrushed nipples, anuses and the partial vulvas/penises back in for the print and the paid digital versions.

Seriously? Isn't that illegal? (in Japan, that is)
I thought that was only done with scans ...and stuff sold outside of Japan, I suppose.
Well I guess you could sell it from just outside Japan. The Japanese buyers would end up owning something illegal, but...
Quote
PS: Wiki IP bans people if you mess with articles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don't_abbrevi ate_%22Wikipedia%22_as_%22Wiki%22!

thread

» Transdude1996 on March 16th, 2020, 9:38am

Quote from zarlan
Seriously? Isn't that illegal? (in Japan, that is)

Japan's censorship laws are all over the place to where what is considered "illegal" literally changing with every ruling, because Japan's court system leaves the decision up to the judge of the current trial and they don't "run it up the ladder" like Western countries. It all started back in the 50's (With the U.S. basically telling Japan to figure it out for themselves) with some French NTR novel being considered the limit, then nudity later become alright as long as the genitals weren't show (Which some studios slipping by with having the characters/actors being unshaven), then it was alright to show everything as long as it was "tasteful", and, now, there's a new proposal going through to allow material to be uncensored altogether.

Long story short, all media that is "distasteful to the general public" is considered illegal in Japan, but the government doesn't really care unless they have a bone to pick with someone.

thread

» residentgrigo on March 16th, 2020, 5:47pm

The madness rages on. I wonder how long it takes to find all the garbage links and how many of them are actually read by the posters? Imagine having this much free time... I rarely open these, so don´t bother. Or not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Don't abbreviate "Wikipedia" as "Wiki" is somehow the weirdest one as it is a self-titled "humorous essay" (even total shit can make it on wiki´s hidden features, with a waifu mascot to top it off, lol) and Wikipedia is and always was a type of wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki

Shocking right? Have fun with the
User Posted Image
in this hell topic but there is a place where your questions about tags and genres can be answered! Namely here: Categories (Tags) Bug Thread. Well, kinda. My good deed of the day.
Summon me there if questions arise and releasing stuff with uncensored genitalia has lead to police raids and criminal charges.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-07-25/core-magazine-head-editor-2-more-arrested-for-obscene-manga-photos

And all the other stuff I already covered (Aki Sora and like a dozen others a decade ago). Oh wait, it´s my article again which features primary sources to drop the magaton so that the cheap seats can hear me too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Japan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misshitsu
The manga that broke the camel´s back on MU if you got curious Misshitsu (it´s a rape porno).

But who will one listen to in this Marketplace of Ideas? A Japanese press agency, primary sources that quote convictions and the criminal code or an outspoken Neo-Nazi on a comic forum 😕 . Decision, decisions. I should be paid for the services I proved here... I am dunzo for the week, see you next poll everynyan. What a shit-show. At least it drives traffic so the admins can be happy.

thread

» Transdude1996 on March 16th, 2020, 6:17pm

Quick questions: Why are you losing your complete mind over this poll?

thread

» lambchopsil on March 16th, 2020, 9:27pm

The next people to respond to this argument gets banned from the forums for a few days. I'm trying to not lock down the entire news post

thread

» zarlan on March 18th, 2020, 4:48am

Quote from lambchopsil
The next people to respond to this argument gets banned from the forums for a few days. I'm trying to not lock down the entire news post

Ehm... Just to clarify: Does that mean that none of us three are allowed to make any comments, in this thread? Because the argument was about... well about the topic of this thread, so...

thread

» lambchopsil on March 19th, 2020, 2:17pm

Quote from zarlan
Quote from lambchopsil
The next people to respond to this argument gets banned from the forums for a few days. I'm trying to not lock down the entire news post

Ehm... Just to clarify: Does that mean that none of us three are allowed to make any comments, in this thread? Because the argument was about... well about the topic of this thread, so...

That entire mess of you, Transdude1996, and residentgrigo

thread

» zarlan on March 20th, 2020, 1:36am

Quote from lambchopsil
That entire mess of you, Transdude1996, and residentgrigo

That did nothing to clarify. In any way. What is "the entire mess"? What does it entail? What are we allowed to post, if anything?
How come you didn't actually answer the question?

thread

» ceruleantear on March 17th, 2020, 12:02pm

To me nudity (like a woman's bare chest) doesn't have to be sexual. In Ranma 1/2, they used it to just show off the fact that a boy has turned into a girl. However, I haven't seen genitalia in anything that didn't involve graphic sex.

So, I went with "Nothing bare should be shown that's below the waist." I've always felt that ecchi is enticing, but doesn't go into blatant sex scenes. So, if I see anything nudity down below, I am reading hentai or a particularly smutty yaoi.

thread

» zarlan on March 18th, 2020, 5:25am

As this particular argument is about what is sexual, rather than what counts as porn, as such, I think I'm probably safe in responding to this, so...:
Quote from ceruleantear
To me nudity (like a woman's bare chest) doesn't have to be sexual.

I think anyone who says that, is deluding themselves.
Boobs (so not breasts, generally, but the female human chest, specifically), even covered, are inherently sexual
...as much as anything is inherently sexual, that is.
In that it is hardwired into humans, as something we respond to, in sexual terms.

The only reason that boobs exist, that they ever came about, is to be sexual.
...and no, they are not needed for breastfeeding. A woman who literally as flat-chested as a boy (unlike the notably protruding mounds, in clear need of bras, that is (to my confusion) usually what is referred to as a "washboard", or "chopping block", or the like, and said to be "completely flat" ), is perfectly good to breastfeed a baby. Granted, there will need to be some temporary swelling, during and in preparation for the breastfeeding, but...

Humans are quite the exception, in having prominent breasts on females (there's also goats and cows, but aside from that...)

Some like to counter "in most primitive societies, the women don't cover their breasts", but I fail to see how that is supposed to be a sign that it isn't seen as sexual. (besides, I doubt that anyone would argue that nudists prove that nothing about the human body is sexual)

In fact, I'd argue that, visually speaking, boobs are far more sexual, than the vagina. What is done with/to the vagina is generally far more sexual, but purely visually... (and the vagina is not exactly known for its beauty ...and neither is the penis, for that matter)
Quote
In Ranma 1/2, they used it to just show off the fact that a boy has turned into a girl.

You think that the showing of naked boobs, in a series made for horny young teen boys, wasn't put in there purely for the purposes of sexual fan-service?
You think that the target audience of horny young teen boys, don't see the boob as sexual? Don't get sexually excited by them?
(I'd say it's sexual regardless of age, but that particular demographic in particular...)

thread

» Transdude1996 on March 18th, 2020, 7:40am

Quote from zarlan
Quote
In Ranma 1/2, they used it to just show off the fact that a boy has turned into a girl.

You think that the showing of naked boobs, in a series made for horny young teen boys, wasn't put in there purely for the purposes of sexual fan-service?
You think that the target audience of horny young teen boys, don't see the boob as sexual? Don't get sexually excited by them?
(I'd say it's sexual regardless of age, but that particular demographic in particular...)

You do realize that Ranma 1/2 was written by a woman, right? Also, what is wrong with making a series targeted towards "horny young teen boys"?

On top of that, what's stopping you from thinking that the person making the series just wanted to make softcore erotic and/or show off sexually attractive characters altogether, demographics be damned?

thread

» zarlan on March 19th, 2020, 1:34pm

Quote from Transdude1996
You do realize that Ranma 1/2 was written by a woman, right?

What makes you think that the creator being female, has anything to do with it not being sexual and/or not catering to male sexual titillation?
I'm certainly not saying that Takahashi Rumiko is as bad as, say, Akamatsu Ken, but...
Note that both Ranma and Urusei Yatsura are tagged as ecchi here (and anywhere else you'd like to check, I don't doubt ...and I'd argue that there are some more of her manga, that should have an ecchi tag, as well. Maison Ikkoku, for example [I'd like to point to some more, but I haven't actually read a lot of her work, to be honest. I believe those three works are the only ones I have any familiarity with, actually] ...and aniDB agrees, it would seem)

There are tons of examples of shounen/seinen works with plenty of ecchi for guys, and even male targeted porn, made by women. (not to mention female ecchi/porn, of course)
Because they like it, their editors/publishers push for it, or just to make money... (I'd say there's some of all three) either way, it's common enough.

thread

» Transdude1996 on March 19th, 2020, 2:41pm

Quote from zarlan
What makes you think that the creator being female, has anything to do with it not being sexual and/or not catering to male sexual titillation?

The fact that attractive female characters deliver the same "power fantasy" for girls that a story of Conan does for guys, and (For some strange reason) female creators happen to get a lot more lewd and personal than their male counter-parts. All that being said, however, where is the problem? It's possible that I misunderstood you, but you made it sound like it was a "terrible thing" that people make content for people who spend money.

thread

» zarlan on March 20th, 2020, 1:45am

Quote from Transdude1996
The fact that attractive female characters deliver the same "power fantasy" for girls that a story of Conan does for guys

What "power fantasy"? This is about having sexual fan-service. About having things that are there, purely for sexual titillation. None of it has anything to do with power, in any way.

Oh, and if you want to comment about how Conan is "scantily clad"...
That's to show his muscles.
It's all about male power fantasy, and nothing to do being sexually attractive/titillating, to anyone
...not that, that type of body is particularly appealing to most women, anyway.
Some gay men, perhaps, but who paid any heed to them, when Conan was made?
The guys who get voted "sexiest man", or in some other way are shown to be considered sexy, are never people like Arnold Schwarzenegger ...well, some do still have needlessly big muscles, like Jason Momoa for example, but nothing at the level of Conan.
Quote
and (For some strange reason) female creators happen to get a lot more lewd and personal than their male counter-parts.

Eh, no. Not particularly, no. (and I'm not going to bother arguing that off topic point, in this thread. Just making it clear that I disagree)
Quote
where is the problem?

When/where did I say, or so much as imply, anything about a problem?
I talked about what is sexual or not.
At no point did I say, suggest, or imply, any dislike or disapproval ...or like or approval.
I made no comment, in regards to that.

thread

» Transdude1996 on March 20th, 2020, 9:53am

Quote from zarlan
Quote from Transdude1996
The fact that attractive female characters deliver the same "power fantasy" for girls that a story of Conan does for guys

What "power fantasy"? This is about having sexual fan-service. About having things that are there, purely for sexual titillation. None of it has anything to do with power, in any way.

You were asking for what other reason a female creator would make a character sexually attractive for any reason than to appeal to guys.

Quote from zarlan
Oh, and if you want to comment about how Conan is "scantily clad"...
That's to show his muscles.
It's all about male power fantasy, and nothing to do being sexually attractive/titillating, to anyone
...not that, that type of body is particularly appealing to most women, anyway.
Some gay men, perhaps, but who paid any heed to them, when Conan was made?
The guys who get voted "sexiest man", or in some other way are shown to be considered sexy, are never people like Arnold Schwarzenegger ...well, some do still have needlessly big muscles, like Jason Momoa for example, but nothing at the level of Conan.

Just decide to look that up because I'm curious about who were the winners are. For the first decade (Which started back in '85), it was Mad Max, then "the bad doctor", then it was Perseus, then the son of the president, then James "Aged like fine wine" Bond, then the manlet who does his own stunts, the the dirty dancer from action films, then a former model turned actor, then Cindy Crawford and her husband, then Ted "Theodore" Logan, and then the precursor to Edward Cullen. Though, you are right, the guys were fit, but none of them were completely jacked like mid-80's Arnold, with the except of The Rock when he won in 2016.

However, even Arnold was more buff than Conan was suppose to be. Here is how Conan was depicted back in 1932 when he debuted (Linking because the images are too big horizontally), here he is a few months later in 1933, and then over a year later in 1934.

Quote from zarlan
Quote
where is the problem?

When/where did I say, or so much as imply, anything about a problem?
I talked about what is sexual or not.
At no point did I say, suggest, or imply, any dislike or disapproval ...or like or approval.
I made no comment, in regards to that.

Okay, that was a misunderstanding on my part then. Most of the time, whenever people talk about series appealing to "horny young teen boys", they trying to use it as a criticism as if it's a "crime against nature" that people make content for a market that exists. I assumed that you were doing the same, which is where I made my error.

thread

» zarlan on March 20th, 2020, 11:53am

Quote from Transdude1996
You were asking for what other reason a female creator would make a character sexually attractive for any reason than to appeal to guys.

...and your proposed reason, is utterly wrong, as I pointed out.
They do not deliver any form of power fantasy, but rather sexual titillation.
Not in adition to power fantasy. Just sexual titillation.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Hence your argument is void.

...and yeah, there's quite a difference between book (i.e. real original) Conan, and movie Conan.
Also a lot of the people generally considered sexy, aren't necessarily that "fit". Just healthy and non-fat. A bit of muscles can maybe be a plus, but is hardly required.
Quote
Most of the time, whenever people talk about series appealing to "horny young teen boys", they trying to use it as a criticism

Oh yeah, good point. That's quite true. Thanks for pointing that out.
Hence your error was quite understandable.
Indeed, I'd say I should have been more careful of the connotations of my phrasing.
Sorry, my bad.

Hell, it is also true of how I, myself, usually talk about series that appeal to "horny young teen boys" (and how, for example, I utterly diss pretty much anything by Akamatsu Ken, as trash without any value), and I do disapprove of most fan-service (sexual fan-service especially, but also non-sexual) ...though that's to do with how it's used, including how it distracts from the story (except in series where the story is just the excuse for the fan-service, which I especially despise), rather than how sexual the content is.

My mention of it, in regards to Ranma, however, was purely to point out how extremely ridiculous it is, to think that the nudity in the series, was about anything other than sexual fan-service, rather than being any comment on the series, itself.

thread

» HikaruYami on March 24th, 2020, 11:02am

Quote
I think anyone who says that, is deluding themselves.


You're literally mansplaining boobs to a woman. That's hilarious.

thread

» Transdude1996 on March 24th, 2020, 12:43pm

Did you just assume Zarlan's gender? That's very sexist of you.

thread

» zarlan on March 25th, 2020, 6:36pm

Sorry for the slight delay in reply, but I hadn't expected to see any, as these threads tend to die out, once the next poll comes along. (also, I've had some computer problems to deal with, for about a week now, which has finally gotten settled down, now)
Quote from HikaruYami
You're literally mansplaining boobs to a woman. That's hilarious.

Mansplaining, is about explaining something you know less about, than the person you are talking to.
(mainly when a man does so, to a woman. Especially about women's issues)

That is clearly not the case here.
A woman doesn't know more knowledgeable about what is sexual about the female body, or not, just because they are a woman. (in particularly, sexual TO MEN, which is something you'd assume that men, if anyone, would have a better intuitive knowledge of ...not that I'm saying that boobs aren't sexual to women, mind you)

Hell, you don't necessarily know more about how the female body works, just because you're a woman! What with how there are cases of mothers who thought they gave birth through the anus, women who have no idea that they pee through a separate hole, who think that the vagina only lubricates if you like the person you are with... (which was their argument for why it is physically harmful to be in IRL porn ...which, utter ignorance of biology aside, shows a shocking ignorance of the existence of lube. Though the biological ignorance is far worse, of course)

...and I'm stating undeniable and clearly demonstrable facts.
You have no counter-argument, so you stoop to labeling my comment, as "mansplaining", to dismiss it.
That is an ad hominem, a bad attempt at a argument from fallacy, and just generally weak and dishonest.

@Transdude1996 I'd say my username sounds like it's male ...and he/she may have seen a comment of mine, where I state/imply my male gender.

thread

» Transdude1996 on March 25th, 2020, 7:13pm

Quote from zarlan
@Transdude1996 I'd say my username sounds like it's male ...and he/she may have seen a comment of mine, where I state/imply my male gender.

Oh, I thought that you were a girl. Never really saw anything proving otherwise. That being said, my comment was in jest regardless.

Also, to add on your point about the post being an ad hominem, there's also the fact that this is the internet, where you're sex/race/nationality/etc. doesn't really matter since you can create your own identity. Personal attacks are futile effort because you have no idea if the person on the otherside of the screen is lying or putting up a front (And to what extent). It's one of the reasons why "Tits or GTFO" gained traction, because it was a way for users force discussion to be based on actual points rather than manipulation and ad hominems (And, be, as intended, a degrading act for those failing to contribute to the discussion since they have to resort to exposing their real identity in order to make a "valid point" ).



thread

» zarlan on March 27th, 2020, 11:53am

Quote from Transdude1996
Oh, I thought that you were a girl.

...because I argue against bigotry, and find it intolerable?
That's very sexist, indeed. Against men.
Quote
Personal attacks are futile effort

If only.
Quote
It's one of the reasons why "Tits or GTFO" gained traction, because it was a way for users force discussion to be based on actual points

LOL! The preposterous irony of that statement is priceless.
How you haven't been banned, ages ago...

thread

» Transdude1996 on March 27th, 2020, 2:53pm

Quote from zarlan
...because I argue against bigotry, and find it intolerable?

That, and because of your style of writing, and because it seems like there are a lot more girls that are active in the forums than guys (And, how I came to that conclusion was wondering why there were so many yaoi requests on the front page, and checking profile pages answered my question).

thread

» soraking on March 18th, 2020, 5:55am

it goes too far when it happens way too often

thread

» alexdhamp on March 18th, 2020, 8:52pm

None of these options really define the difference between ecchi and hentai for me. A story can be fully erotic without being full blown pornographic. Porn/Hentai is when the story focuses mainly or solely on sex...if the sex is just part of the story and not a main focus...then it's just an ecchi.

thread

» Otakuch on March 20th, 2020, 3:08pm

Ecchi= hot stuff 😉

thread