banner_jpg
Username/Email: Password:
News Article
New Poll - Loli/Shota
This week's poll was suggested by Akemi Mokoto. We've actually done similar polls back in 2014 and 2016, and the majority said that they should not be banned. I reworded the question slightly to emphasize the sexual content and see if that makes a difference.

You can submit poll ideas here
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903

Previous Poll Results:
Question: You're stranded without hope of rescue for the foreseeable future. You're unable to hunt, know nothing about plants, but have the means to make fire. You begin starving. You stumble across the fresh corpse of a person. Do you eat the body?
Choices:
No - votes: 1902 (59%)
Yes - votes: 1324 (41%)
There were 3226 total votes.
The poll ended: December 27th 2020

Survival of the fittest? Or will ethics dictate things?
Posted by lambchopsil on 
December 27th 3:28pm
Comments ( 65 )  
[ View ]  [ Add ]
Comments

» residentgrigo on December 27th, 2020, 9:20am

No but it is child pornography and is likely illegal in your country. Very very likely. So the question is redundant. Your state already made up its mind and you will never have the option to influence its legal status. That shit is also a legal minefield in Japan, obviously heavily frowned upon and the heat only keeps rising against such creators. The walls will soon close in. Let´s see what MU will do then if the site is still around. The old works already exist and aren´t going anywhere.

The last poll on this kept going for 3 weeks and was toxic AF. Round 3 😁. Even fewer people post now but the boards also grew worse.

thread

» Ergzay on December 31st, 2020, 3:11am

That depends strongly on your country. It's not illegal in the US in general. And no it's not "child pornography".

> That shit is also a legal minefield in Japan, obviously heavily frowned upon and the heat only keeps rising against such creators.

Also you don't know shit about Japan apparently. The stuff is sold in normal stores alongside every other sort of 18+ manga and 18+ fan comics. It's not segregated in any way from other content and people don't give you a second look when you buy it. It's completely and 100% legal in Japan. Source: Been to Japan several times and what I'm saying is obvious to anyone who's been to places like Melonbooks or Toranoana or other similiar places.

Among otaku community people can freely state their interest in the stuff and not get excluded from other people in the community. Many are completely unaware that it's even illegal outside of Japan.

thread

» Transdude1996 on December 27th, 2020, 9:38am

As I've said innumerable times already: IT IS A DRAWING. There's nothing illegal about it, and it should not be banned. Even the U.S. told the U.N. to fuck off when they proposed banning such content. And, you cannot ban it anyway because of the 1st.

Ironically, from what I've seen, the only people who seem to be in favor and the most vocal about banning lolis and shotas all "coincidentally" happen to be legit pedos, themselves.
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
But, that's typical of most social justice groups.

thread

» julia36 on December 27th, 2020, 11:35am

Lol at a guy named Transdude complaining about social justice groups.

thread

» zarlan on December 27th, 2020, 1:29pm

Quote from julia36
Lol at a guy named Transdude complaining about social justice groups.

He's a troll. Just ignore him. I am constantly amazed, at why he hasn't been banned, ages ago,

thread

» mevan883 on December 30th, 2020, 6:55am

Considering that the state of Ohio and West Virginia had put some guy in jail over that stuff when the Ohio guy loli hentai that he ordered from Japan was damaged in USPO and The West Virginia guy came back from Japan with that stuff and got arrested. I also know Canada outlawed it and so did Mexico.

thread

» Transdude1996 on December 30th, 2020, 7:56am

Quote from mevan883
Considering that the state of Ohio and West Virginia had put some guy in jail over that stuff when the Ohio guy loli hentai that he ordered from Japan was damaged in USPO and The West Virginia guy came back from Japan with that stuff and got arrested.

Couldn't find anything about Ohio, however, searching West Virginia brought this up: https://archive.vn/Qypfy
Quote
In 1996, the United States Congress passed an act entitled the Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996, which expanded the definition of child pornography to include virtual images. In 2002, the Supreme Court found that this law was unconstitutional due to its infringements on the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
In 2003, Congress passed a law (PROTECT Act of 2003) including a slightly revised form of the virtual child pornography prohibition. This law has not yet been subject to judicial review.

And, from what I can find, every single case that has used the Protect Act has been struck down, with charges then relying in the accused passing the Miller Test (Which is also unconstitutional, but that's another topic). Thus far, there have been ZERO actual convictions that happened because of the Protect Act, and all the convictions that have happened rely upon the same (Unconstitutional) law that could get someone arrested for possessing a copy of Midnight Cowboy.

Quote from mevan883
I also know Canada outlawed it and so did Mexico ...

Canada and Mexico are NOT the United States. Despite being neighbors, they have none of the laws we do, no matter how much they lie about how they do.

thread

» rokyun_ on December 31st, 2020, 10:01am

Quote
I also know Canada outlawed it and so did Mexico.


I'm gonna need more info on the Mexico thing since I'm Mexico and Im pretty sure that what outlawed was CESM and not lolisho. I do not claim to be an expert in law, I just would really like an actual source on this fact since it's something I've never heard of.

A point a lot of people tend to forget is that lolisho is FICTION, while CESM shows REAL LIFE children being abused. Knowing the difference does not mean you have to be okay with lolisho, heck you can 100% dislike it and not want to see it, but realize that those are not real children. No damage is being done to children.

Nobuhiro Watsuki's works did not depict lolisho and yet the bastard was caught with actual CESM.

And if someone says that that type of content is what pedos use to groom children, then the blame should be on the pedo, not the content bc surprise surprise pedos use anything they can to groom, not only lolisho.

thread

» sloez on January 1st, 2021, 11:14pm

omh stfu<3<3 why tf r bringing up social justice groups?? Huhhh?? lmao
ur username is literally "transdude1996"... cmon bro what

thread

» Tarou on December 27th, 2020, 12:09pm

If loli/shota gets banned, what will have to go next? Yaoi/hentai with consent issues?

It's a slippery slope, folks. And, as mentioned earlier in the comments, we're talking about fantasies (drawings) here, not real people. Hence the warnings.

thread

» psirit on December 29th, 2020, 7:43pm

Honestly, yes. Both are rape, a minor can't consent, neither can a little sister or maid or succubus bound by a love potion.
The problem isn't that it exists as a fantasy, the problem is that it's framed positively, which influences society to act similarly. Ideally we would filter through and judge each work individually, and I see why this would be impossible. However, I'm sure it's clear that the majority of these authors are drawing for an audience who does not want to believe that rape is wrong, portraying the girl/loli/shota as sexy as possible and as enjoying it.

thread

» Transdude1996 on December 29th, 2020, 8:53pm

Quote from psirit
The problem isn't that it exists as a fantasy, the problem is that it's framed positively, which influences society to act similarly.

Do you honestly think that the average person is so fucking stupid that they cannot think for themselves, so they rely upon their entertainment to gain their ideological beliefs; AND are so mentally stunted that they completely lack the ability to separate fictitious events and scenarios that happen in entertainment from the real world? IN OTHER WORDS, you honestly think that fiction is as powerful, real, and dangerous as hunting magic: https://invidio.us/watch?v=9x2FsrhKmZ8

thread

» zarlan on December 27th, 2020, 1:24pm

In a sensible/civilized country, you don't just ban stuff, because you don't like them.
Indeed, the whole point of Free Speech/Expression, is that you must never do so. It's all about protecting that which people dislike. That which is inoffensive, needs no protection.
Much like how people in court, are considered "innocent until proven guilty", much the same applies to actions/possessions.
You ban that which is genuinely harmful.

Real child pornography, involving real children?
That is a horrible violation of the child(ren) in question. It is essentially a continuation and repeating, of the violation that is generally involved in the making of it.
Clearly that must be illegal, and punished severely.

Fictional images, depicting representations of children, but not in any way involving any real children, which are pornographic?
That doesn't involve any actual children, nor is there are valid evidence, that is able to even suggest that is is able to even indirectly harm any real children. That is makes anyone into a paedophile, or makes paedophile more likely to violate children, or is used by them to convince children to accept their advances, or anything like that.

Conclusion:
There is zero reason, to ban it.
Dislike it? Find it disgusting and despicable? Find the existence of it, depressing and disappointing?
Absolutely!
Ban?
Hell no!

P.S. There is a lot of not strictly porn loli/shota material out there, that is still clearly meant to be there, to appeal to certain people, in a sexual way. The condemnation of loli/shota material I've mentioned above, should be just as applied to that.

thread

» mallika23 on December 27th, 2020, 1:55pm

This is a hard question.

Do I mind a sexual content in manga? Not really, as long as it contributes something to the story and not being a mere fanservice. Do I personally agree with loli/shota with sexualized content? No. Children world is complex and far from pure, but sexualizing them through manga feels wrong. Do I agree of banning it? Personally, yes I prefer this option. Even if I say no, my country certainly would not allow something like this to be published.

But does banning something would solve the problem of sexualizing children? No. That's why if somehow there's any manga with loli/shota sexualized content published in my country, I hope the person in the cashier bookstore should really pay attention to the buyer so that no children or those underage read that. I say this because the regulation in my country is too lax. Even an elementary kid can buy cigarates from street vendors.

thread

» Animechic420 on December 27th, 2020, 2:57pm

Man, you people who voted "No" are sick. 😠

thread

» zarlan on December 27th, 2020, 3:31pm

Quote from Animechic420
Man, you people who voted "No" are sick. 😠

Tell me:
In what way, is loli/shota porn actually harmful?
What actual harm does it cause? (regardless of whether it is directly or indirectly)
Keep in mind that loli/shota works involve drawings, and not actual children.

Or are you saying that anything we consider disgusting, must be banned?
…which would mean an abolishment of Free Speech/Expression, and then a ban on:
tattoos, piercings, colouring of hair, any and all expressions of political views and opinions, discrimination, opposition to discrimination, spiders, insects, rodents, snakes, a lot of people with birth defects, various kinds of disabled people, homosexuality, bisexuality, heterosexuality, fat people, skinny people, people who like manga/anime…
I could go on.
For pages upon pages …and never be able to make the list complete.

thread

» cecropiamoth on December 27th, 2020, 6:22pm

No. It's just drawings.

Nobody was harmed or exploited in making the image.

thread

» hkanz on December 27th, 2020, 8:09pm

No, unless there’s data to indicate that pedophiles who look at such drawings are more likely to abuse children.

thread

» HikaruYami on December 27th, 2020, 8:38pm

Exactly this.

And while I'm not aware of studies on the subject (it'd be very hard to study), if studies on violent video games are any indication, loli/shota manga most likely acts as a safe outlet for such people, exactly the opposite of making them act out their desires IRL

thread

» Transdude1996 on December 27th, 2020, 9:06pm

Thus far, the ONLY study that has even been conducted for this "specifically" was in Denmark several years ago, with their results stating that there is no connection to be found whatsoever. Outside of that, the closest direct studies that exist state that everywhere where porn is more easily accessible, sexual assault decreases across the board.

thread

» HikaruYami on December 28th, 2020, 5:48pm

Thanks, that second link is definitely helpful in establishing this point.

Pedophilia will always exist. It's a mental illness of sorts, and one that people are actively disincentivized from getting help over (because doing so requires outing themselves). So if anything, the existence of loli/shota manga seems more helpful than harmful.

thread

» AquarianDemocrat on December 27th, 2020, 8:49pm

Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes a very low rate of crimes against children. While loli/shota is gross I can only assume that it's a neutral/positive from a crime prevention standpoint.

I also think it's important to protect artistic freedom of expression as much as possible, and bans like this can often result in unintentional overreach. The government operates with a sledgehammer - not a scalpel.

I'm fine with keeping loli/shota legal for these two reasons.

thread

» zarlan on December 27th, 2020, 10:36pm

Quote from AquarianDemocrat
Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes a very low rate of crimes against children.

Whilst I agree that there is zero evidence of loli/shota porn being, even indirectly, harmful…
The situation in regards to sexual exploitation of children, in Japan, is not at all as good as you think.

…and some of the sexual exploitation of (genuine IRL) children that happens in Japan, occurs without it appearing in the crime rates.
Because they aren't crimes.
Due to laws with rather sizeable loopholes
…and Japan is all about following the letter of the law, and who cares about the spirit of it. (this is true in general, and not just with this issue)
If people find a loophole, they don't change the law to fix it.
They just let it be.

I suggest you try to find, and watch, "Stacey Dooley Investigates - Young Sex For Sale In Japan".
It is…
Quite disturbing.
(IIRC, it does mention loli/shota and says it should be banned, which is wrong, but… most of the documentary is about real people, rather than drawings… The stuff it says about that, can't really be disputed)

thread

» Transdude1996 on December 27th, 2020, 11:14pm

Quote from zarlan
I suggest you try to find, and watch, "Stacey Dooley Investigates - Young Sex For Sale In Japan".

You talking about the BBC doc that branded Yuyushiki as child porn?
User Posted Image

I remember watching that. That entire thing was hilarious with how she kept getting BTFOed around Tokyo; especially when the cops went after her for illegally filming minors (In Japan, filming or photographing anyone underage, without a face covering, and without parental or guardian permission is ILLEGAL) at that maid cafe and then tried to pass it off as "the cops are defending the underground child porn industry".

thread

» Ergzay on December 31st, 2020, 3:19am

> I suggest you try to find, and watch, "Stacey Dooley Investigates - Young Sex For Sale In Japan".

I suggest you not watch BBC propaganda that's putting completely fake things in your head.

thread

» Carmella on December 28th, 2020, 4:32am

Quote from AquarianDemocrat
Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes a very low rate of crimes against children. While loli/shota is gross I can only assume that it's a neutral/positive from a crime prevention standpoint. ...


This is why it's important to understand that media often reflects the state of the world. Japan's crime rate isn't necessarily low; it's different. Yakuza exist; they are VERY real. What they do and how they work might be exaggerated in manga, but they've done some really horrible things (such as manipulating government officials and businesses) and some really good things (such as aiding in disaster relief). Japan has a CHRONIC problem with stalkers, molesters, and sexual assault because women are still treated more as brides-to-be than... y'know... people with aspirations beyond the bedroom and the kitchen. Adding to that, vocal survivors of these assaults are often perceived as shameful because drawing any attention that does not positively reflect on one's reputation is still often considered bad; so, a LOT of sexual assault goes unreported.

The latter INCLUDES sexual assault against adolescents. It is no coincidence that persistently in manga and anime, another person will learn of the sexual assault of a youth, but then NOT REPORT IT. It's not necessarily that Japan condones underage relations—In a really spectacular show of trying to move beyond a darker past, even though the constitution still lists age of consent as 13, the majority of cities and even wards have raised that age to 18, and, culturally, many people stick with the legal definition of "adult" in Japan and still wait another two years until 20. The problem, again, comes down to public reputation and certain difficulties in the Japanese legal system (often affected by public reputation).

Japan is actively wrangling with sexualization of children, just like any other country, and a big part of that is the "loli-shota-moe" conversation. I won't pretend I have the perfect solution to the issue, but I think an important change is for fashion culture to reclaim the original Japanese term of "doll fashion." Initially, lolita fashion was referred to as "doll" (or "doru" ), and the "lolita" term was only coined afterward in an article in a magazine. It's suspected that MANY who participated in the Japanese fashion scene started using the word without actually knowing where it came from (like "gaslighting" in English—Hi, it's from a really good film called "Gaslight"; I recommend it). However, as the word became more popular and spread beyond the community, there were people who DID know what it meant and that seems to be where things began to get dark 🙁 So, yeah, I like "doll fashion" because it captures the whimsy of the style; it's technically unisex; and, it doesn't refer to children.

thread

» Transdude1996 on December 28th, 2020, 5:13am

Quote from Carmella
Quote from AquarianDemocrat
Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes a very low rate of crimes against children. While loli/shota is gross I can only assume that it's a neutral/positive from a crime prevention standpoint. ...


This is why it's important to understand that media often reflects the state of the world. Japan's crime rate isn't necessarily low; it's different. Yakuza exist; they are VERY real. What they do and how they work might be exaggerated in manga, but they've done some really horrible things (such as manipulating government officials and businesses) and some really good things (such as aiding in disaster relief). Japan has a CHRONIC problem with stalkers, molesters, and sexual assault because women are still treated more as brides-to-be than... y'know... people with aspirations beyond the bedroom and the kitchen. Adding to that, vocal survivors of these assaults are often perceived as shameful because drawing any attention that does not positively reflect on one's reputation is still often considered bad; so, a LOT of sexual assault goes unreported.

The latter INCLUDES sexual assault against adolescents.

There's a problem with your logic. First of all, if things really were that bad, why haven't other countries taken measures to expose that Japan is technically lying about their absurdly low crime rates, that would cause any thinking person to raise their eyebrow? You cannot report such record lows without someone demanding how such a thing is even possible in one of the most developed nations in the world. And, you CERTAINLY wouldn't need to send in a camera crew to make a documentary that's nothing but slander, because the evidence would be more than available to prove your point. Second, why are you assuming that Japan is the only country lying about their crime rates? Using the U.S. as an example, despite having a near 30 year decline in crime, the FBI plays games with their "criminal charges" definitions that end up significantly altering the actual numbers, and California's Proposition 47 "reduced crime rates" despite all evidence stating otherwise.

Quote from Carmella
So, if you can name a situation in which preying upon children is EVER valid, then this argument works.

Well, there's a recent game that's based in a city with the "highest crime rates in the world", in a world that's suppose to be "beyond hope", yet you cannot kill street urchins despite it being a perfectly reasonable thing to happen in said world.

thread

» zarlan on December 28th, 2020, 11:23am

Quote from Carmella
it's important to understand that media often reflects the state of the world.

Such as how it is common for young school girls to get molested on trains/buses, and how they normally just stay silent and let it happen, seemingly even more afraid of people realising what it being done to them, than of what is being done to them.
…and how peeking at naked girls/women, without their consent, is just "boys being boys".
Just simply what guys do.

I can't count how many times I have been deeply sickened, by girls being worried about the risk of a guy or guys doing what amounts to a serious sexual crime, because they are, after all "healthy boy(s)".
What the hell is healthy, about violating someone!?
…and why do you choose to be with people, you suspect would do such atrocious acts!?
(note: this does not include being worried about, say, being alone in a house with ones boyfriend …as it's more likely a worry about what they might get tempted/convinced to agree to, [and not necessarily regret, either, but…] rather than being forced)
…and then there is all the instances of invalid consent (Japanese society has yet to get a proper understanding of proper consent…), or just completely inarguable rape, of a character by their love interest who they get together with (despite the rape, which typically isn't presented as in any way bad), that is not all that rare. (especially in yaoi, I've heard)

So the view of what counts as a crime/violation, is rather off, and victims are, (really quite sickeningly) ashamed and shamed, despite having done absolutely nothing wrong.
Quote
because women are still treated more as brides-to-be than... y'know... people with aspirations beyond the bedroom and the kitchen.

It is a worryingly common and international problem, that women tend not to be seen as people (incels being an extreme example, but it's an issue even more commonly)
…but Japan is certainly among the worst and most backwards, among developed nations, in this regard.
With women mainly just housewives-to-be, who only work until they find a husband, which they need to get before age 25.
Quote
I won't pretend I have the perfect solution to the issue, but I think an important change is for fashion culture to reclaim the original Japanese term of "doll fashion."

Japans problems with loli/shota predates, and exists separate to, "doll fashion".
Quote
This WAS an issue, which is why many current games have you playing as someone who's legally ALLOWED to shoot/…/

Eh, no.
It has never been an issue (aside from moral panic idiots getting upset about it, which they will still do, as long as they contain violence of any kind), and new games don't all have you "legally" shoot people.

Also, the question of a link between fictional violence and real life violence has been very thoroughly studied, and the results are very clear:
There is none.
Period.

thread

» Transdude1996 on December 28th, 2020, 12:10pm

Quote from zarlan
…but Japan is certainly among the worst and most backwards, among developed nations, in this regard.
With women mainly just housewives-to-be, who only work until they find a husband, which they need to get before age 25.

I agree and disagree with some of your points, but this is the part I strongly disagree with. What is the matter with having one parent staying at home to raise the kids, meanwhile the other provides funds for the family? Do you actually think the West's progressive stance of "Both parents work, and the kid raises themselves, or are raised by the TV/teachers/government" is better?

Also, what about the women that willingly drop out of the workforce to become a parent? Yes, that happens, no one forces them to do it.

thread

» hkanz on December 28th, 2020, 3:06pm

Quote from Transdude1996
What is the matter with having one parent staying at home to raise the kids, meanwhile the other provides funds for the family?


There’s nothing wrong with this. The problem is when society places that expectation solely on women, limiting the prospects of an entire gender. If a couple feels that childcare is inadequate or can’t afford it, they should discuss and decide between themselves who will stay at home. There should be no assumption that the woman will or has to.

thread

» Transdude1996 on December 28th, 2020, 5:33pm

And, does this same notion also apply to men?

If you want to talk about "systematic sexism" that exists in Japan, what about the expectation that growing males are expected to take an office job that demands them to work 100+ hours in a six-day work week (Plus offsite late-night "meetings" they are practically required to attend in order to make it look like they're a loyal employee)? A career that ends up destroying their lives because:
- Japanese boomers bought into the retirement and welfare meme that the military government established over a century go, and they cannot have their retirement if the next generation doesn't pay for everything and organize their welfare plans, so they guilt the next generation of males into "doing their part"
- They only see their wife and/or kids only once a week (Sundays), end up resting majority of the time in order to recover from work, and practically live as a stranger in their own home, yet their wife has the gull to bitch about how "lazy" he is and is at a complete loss of why he ends up cheating on her
- The newer generation doesn't have the time to find a spouse because of the above reasons mentioned in the previous point, so they find escape in media in order to give purpose to their lives, only for their own country AND RETARDED IDIOTS ON THE WESTERN PART OF THE INTERNET WHO HAVEN'T EXPERIENCED WHAT REAL FULL-TIME LABOR IS to end up ridiculing these people for "having no lives" and "being creepy".

Oh, yes, women are TRUELY the ones who are experiencing "sexist oppression" in Japan. And, the only way to end this "oppression" is to encourage that they ALSO take part in this nightmare. That's going to solve EVERYTHING!

thread

» Aremon on December 27th, 2020, 10:55pm

I say NO.

A question to you who vote "Yes". Would you also ban games, comics, manga, books or movies that depict killing people? Because that is also very much illegal if you do it for real...

thread

» Carmella on December 28th, 2020, 4:45am

Quote from Aremon
I say NO.

A question to you who vote "Yes". Would you also ban games, comics, manga, books or movies that depict killing people? Because that is also very much illegal if you do it for real...


This WAS an issue, which is why many current games have you playing as someone who's legally ALLOWED to shoot at people who shoot at them (soldiers, detectives, etc.) or have you killing non-human characters (demons, zombies, etc.) or characters in extreme situations (such as an apocalypse or war). So, if you can name a situation in which preying upon children is EVER valid, then this argument works.

thread

» Lorska on December 28th, 2020, 7:24am

Quote from Carmella
This WAS an issue, which is why many current games have you playing as someone who's legally ALLOWED to shoot at people who shoot at them (soldiers, detectives, etc.) or have you killing non-human characters (demons, zombies, etc.) or characters in extreme situations (such as an apocalypse or war). So, if you can name a situation in which preying upon children is EVER valid, then this argument works.


Unfortunately for you, this was never an issue. The only reason the big companies are doing this is because China is kind of a big market (with extremely strict rules about blood and violence).
Btw, fairly sure, last time I played my latest fantasy RPG I wasn't legally allowed in that world to slaughter innocent civilians but I did it anyway. Weird. Does that mean I'm a mass murder now?

FICTION and REALITY are two different things. Are we back in the 90's now? Cause apparently Mortal Kombat is again creating serial killers all over the planet. 🙄

Funnily enough peopole have been looking into the other direction, if taking outlets away from people to "harmlessly follow their interests" increases the occurence of harmful actions and iirc that actually showed way more statistical relevance than the other way... But of course nobody would talk about this because it makes for a way better headline to say "VIDEO GAMES TURN CHILDREN INTO MASS MURDERERS".

thread

» HikaruYami on December 28th, 2020, 5:55pm

Quote
This WAS an issue, which is why many current games have you playing as someone who's legally ALLOWED to shoot at people who shoot at them

And many *other* current games still allow you to just kill people without having legal authorization to do so.

What the fuck is your point? You want to ban Grand Theft Auto? Red Dead Redemption?

You legit sound like a shill for China with those implications, lol

thread

» dreamer00013 on December 28th, 2020, 7:01pm

It's not depicting real children. So the only question for me is the following: if pedophiles consume it, do their urges for raping actual, real kids increase or does it decrease it?
Because I do know that childlike, accurate dolls were prohibited fast because it made pedophiles more likely to attack real children.
Then again, apparently loli/shota helps keep japan's assault rate for kids incredible low. But it's japan, and well. Healthy, skeptical doubts here on whether it's just not reported.

So refraining from vote, because honestly, if it helps prevent or at the very least doesn't encourage crime, I'm all for it. But I just don't know if that's the case.

thread

» zarlan on December 28th, 2020, 8:33pm

If one accepts the basic principle that things are legal, as long as they are not explicitly decided to be illegal, rather than having a system where everything is illegal, unless they are explicitly decided to be legal…

The burden of evidence, lies on showing that a thing is harmful in some way, for it to be deemed illegal.
…and there is no evidence that loli/shota porn is likely to be harmful.
There are a lot of groups, that would love to see it banned, and if they had evidence, they'd be touting it all the time.
As it is, they have nothing but baseless (and often ridiculous) claims and speculations.

Until it can be shown to be harmful, there is no justifiable reason to ban it.
Despise it and those who consume it? Find it disgusting? Certainly!
…but not to make it illegal.
If we made things illegal, just because we found them disgusting…

thread

» Mamsmilk on December 28th, 2020, 8:51pm

I'm not one for banning anything that is fictitious. Same goes for gore or substance abuse in media, even if they were illegal activities in real life.

thread

» ZiBaXn on December 29th, 2020, 8:54am

This is the first time I am posting about the polls. Here is how I feel, art is a reflection of a culture. A piece of art must serve a purpose especially if the content is dramatic, violent, or lustful. If I am going to have to witness a child girl or boy be sexualized, there must be context to justify the display. One of my biggest issues with books, games, or movies if when things are added without thought to how they are meant to serve in relation to the finished project. It doesn't matter if the pixels or ink can feel or give consent, it's about the purpose behind the pixels and ink.


"Banned" is a strong word but it is the closest word that would express "this shouldn't be part of public media". It is not about the pedos, it's about what that depiction is meant to express. There are some movies that depict children in harms way, but those movies might get a pass because they are telling a story about actual harm (such as sexual assault) that happens to children. Loli and Shota aren't 15-16 year olds but kids as young as 11 or 12. Having children put in a position where they are being sexualized without any context does nothing for the medium aside from furthering stereotypes about mangas and adding on the stigma about those who read them.


TLDR: Respect the art medium but contextualizing the content within especially if the content has non-family friendly themes or dipictions. If you offer content then there is no issue.


I am happy that it's fairly 50/50 and folks can talk about how they feel on the issues. That is the first step.

thread

» zarlan on December 29th, 2020, 9:35pm

Quote from ZiBaXn
"Banned" is a strong word but it is the closest word that would express "this shouldn't be part of public media".

No.
"Banned" means "made illegal".
There is a lot I feel shouldn't be part of public media, but which I would not want to see banned. (incl loli/shota porn)
There are a lot of things, I don't think should exist/happen, that I nevertheless would strongly oppose being made illegal.

thread

» Sugarshark on December 29th, 2020, 1:26pm

it's never a good idea to use statistics to illustrate the prevalence of a crime that carries social stigmatization
Japan's 'super safe' stats don't tell the whole story when you put those numbers beside their suicide stats which are almost double the rest of the world; even when they try and massage the official total # by separating the deceased into suicides, and persons who die by depression.

Saudi Arabia has no rape stats; because no one reports them. It is not a safe place to be.
Sweden has one of the highest sexual assault stats worldwide because the people that come forward have a high confidence in seeing justice served to them.

Anyone who tells you this is victimless doesn't understand or doesn't want to.

thread

» redlinks on December 29th, 2020, 2:20pm

I do not support child pornography of any kind or pedophilia. So my answer would be yes it should be banned.

thread

» zarlan on December 29th, 2020, 9:39pm

Quote from redlinks
I do not support child pornography of any kind or pedophilia. So my answer would be yes it should be banned.

Not making something illegal, means you support it?
Things we don't support, must be made illegal?
So I need to make all political views I don't agree with, illegal?
Wearing sweatpants outside, must be banned?
etc etc

I condemn loli/shota porn, and find it disgusting and disturbing.
…but as there is not a single shred of evidence, that it is actually harmful…

thread

» redlinks on January 1st, 2021, 10:59am

Quote from zarlan
Not making something illegal, means you support it?
Things we don't support, must be made illegal?
So I need to make all political views I don't agree with, illegal?
Wearing sweatpants outside, must be banned?
etc etc

I condemn loli/shota porn, and find it disgusting and disturbing.
…but a ...


What are you talking about? This isn't even about political views or even my own opinions. This is about child pornography and child pornography is illegal.

thread

» Ergzay on December 31st, 2020, 3:21am

Quote from redlinks
I do not support child pornography of any kind or pedophilia. So my answer would be yes it should be banned.


It's not child pornography because there's no children involved. And pedophilia is a mental condition, not a content type. So you don't seem to understand the words you're using.

thread

» redlinks on January 1st, 2021, 10:57am

Quote from Ergzay
It's not child pornography because there's no children involved. And pedophilia is a mental condition, not a content type. So you don't seem to understand the words you're using.


Uhh no I do actually. Shouta means little young boy in which case it would mean a child. You wouldn't call a grown man a little young boy now would you? Seems like you're the one who doesn't understand what Shouta means.

thread

» Transdude1996 on January 1st, 2021, 12:24pm

Quote from redlinks
You wouldn't call a grown man a little young boy now would you?

Well, if they're a midget or a manlet, yes, just to be nice to them. If they look rather mature, however, then you call them a dwarf.

Quote from redlinks
What are you talking about? This isn't even about political views or even my own opinions. This is about child pornography and child pornography is illegal.

Yes, cheeze pizza is illegal, however lolicon and shotacon material are not cheeze pizza. They're drawings. And, the fact that you want to ban drawings has everything to do with politics.

As numerous studies, and users in this thread, have verified, there has been zero connections found between porn (Even fictional porn) causing any amount of crime. If anything, they reduce the amount of crime, with the most "controversial" part being that they may provide an safe outlet for individuals who may pose the slightest amount of risk. So, the concept of banning porn would cause more harm than good when one steps back and thinks about it. That's what the studies show.

However, you then have puritans (On all side of the political spectrum) that then declare that the "Studies are incorrect, and 'common sense'' should declare otherwise". Well, in that case, let's use "common sense" to boil this down. First of all, the reason why you would want to ban these works is because they offend you on some level (Personally, morally, consciously, religiously, etc.). BUT, banning something because it offends you is not enough of a reason to cause people to be arrested over it. I find shows like Family Guy to be offensive (On a personal level, I find it to be of terrible quality, I don't take offense to the jokes), but that doesn't mean that I will (Nor that I should) lead a crusade against Fox and burn their studios to the ground over it.
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
And, in addition to that, I've heard several successful millionaires all repeating a very similar line: "If you're easily offended, don't go on the internet, don't get a job, don't get married, don't have kids, and don't be successful in life."

So, right there, we just established that using "common sense" dictates that "being offended" is not enough of a reason to ban content.

However, the "common sense" doesn't just end there. You may bring up that "common sense" indicates that you're jacking off to "children" because of one of many factors. First of all, there's the "language" used, and you would be surprised to know that "baby talk" actually is a fetish that loads of people have (Don't know why, it's not my thing and I don't plan to investigate). So, language isn't a determining factor. What about body size and development? Well, in that regard, declaring that the character has to be a "certain size" in order for it to not be "cheeze pizza" then brings you down the rabbit hole that all porn involving midgets and dwarves (Regardless of age) would have to be banned because it is "cheeze pizza". And, if you want to use "body development" as you're gauge, then you have the HILARIOUS law that already exists in Australia that declares that ANY porn using "flat-chested" models is automatically declared as child porn. So, using "common sense", size, body development, and language used cannot be trustworthy indicates of why you should ban lolicon and shotcan material. But what about the age of the character? Well, then you have instances such as 300 year old loli dragons in Fire Emblem: Awakening. You cannot pin anything down that will exclusively effect only lolicon and shotacon material. That's the conclusion that using "common sense" will lead down.

And, even IF you decide to eventually just give up and declaring that ALL drawings that can be deemed as "lewd" should be banned (Just as a way to kill a fruit fly with a rocket), then you end up becoming like Worst Korea, where the cops have LITERALLY HALTED all attempts to stop the production of REAL cheeze pizza because it's much easier to arrest a coffee shop owner and all her customers because someone was using the shop's wifi to read Stray Little Devil.

thread

» redlinks on January 1st, 2021, 2:17pm

Quote from Transdude1996
Well, if they're a midget or a manlet, yes, just to be nice to them. If they look rather mature, however, then you call them a dwarf.


Well that's not what the term means. In Japan, Shouta and lollicon refers to young children not dwarfs. If you actually read the history on the term, it began with a reference to a 10 year old boy Shotaro from Tetsujin 28. So Shota means little boys as in kids. If I were to show Himitsu no GyaruShota to a police officer, you're telling me that they wouldn't arrest me for having possession of child porn? I don't care if its drawings or real child porn. Possession of child porn of any kind is illegal. This is not my own opinion, it's fact no matter how much you try to defend it. You can go ahead and find shows like Family Guy offensive. I find child porn and even borderline child porn way more offensive than jokes said on Family Guy.

thread

» Transdude1996 on January 1st, 2021, 2:53pm

Quote from redlinks
Quote from Transdude1996
Well, if they're a midget or a manlet, yes, just to be nice to them. If they look rather mature, however, then you call them a dwarf.


Well that's not what the term means.

How autistic are you to miss the joke?

Quote from redlinks
If I were to show Himitsu no GyaruShota to a police officer, you're telling me that they wouldn't arrest me for having possession of child porn?

No, they wouldn't because (1) it's an underage boy being exploited (And, no one gives one single damn about underage boys being sexually exploited, just read up on how prepubescent male strippers and female pedophiles are treated), (2) it's a drawing so no judge is going to waste their time prosecuting it anyway, and (3) you didn't tell the officer about any of the real cheeze pizza that you stashed away (Which is how most of these current, illegal, laws are applied anyway, just as a way to increase the list of charges).

thread

» redlinks on January 1st, 2021, 3:17pm

Quote from Transdude1996
How autistic are you to miss the joke? No, they wouldn't because (1) it's an underage boy being exploited (And, no one gives one single damn about underage boys being sexually exploited, just read up on how prepubescent male strippers and female pedophiles are treated), (2) it's a drawing so no judge is going to waste their time prosecuting it anyway, and (3) you didn't tell the officer about any of the real cheeze pizza that you stashed away (Which is how most of these current, illegal, laws are applied anyway, just as a way to increase the list of charges).


Whatever. Go ahead and think you want you closet pedophile.

thread

» Transdude1996 on January 1st, 2021, 3:31pm

Quote from redlinks
Whatever. Go ahead and think you want you closet pedophile.

And, good day to you, too, you shota-thirsty Christmas cake.

thread

» sloez on January 1st, 2021, 11:19pm

the fact theyre going so far to defend sexual shit with kids in it already tells u enough lol

thread

» rokyun_ on January 1st, 2021, 3:09pm

Quote from redlinks
I find child porn and even borderline child porn way more offensive than jokes said on Family Guy.


Repeat after me: CESM INVOLVES REAL CHILDREN. NOT DRAWN LINES.

The content can be disgusting to you, and there's nothing wrong with that but for god's sake, CESM involves real children.

Quote from redlinks
Possession of child porn of any kind is illegal.


Yes, real children. Children who actually experience trauma and pain due to the actions that REAL PEOPLE make them go through when they're abused.

As someone has said, if you go to places like Toranoana and such in Japan, you will find that there are a lot of doujin that show underaged boys and girls, because those characters do not exist.

thread

» Crowned_Cumber on December 31st, 2020, 3:40am

Needs more research. I have heard some very interesting things about the effects of different countries banning or permitting fake child porn. It seems to show that giving pedophiles something non-harmful to masturbate to makes them LESS likely to actually hurt a child. In which case I am more than ok with it, in fact let's make a bunch more. Whatever helps right? Unfortunately there isn't enough follow up on this to really be sure. We still can't rule out coincidence, or the possibility that it stops some pedos but encourages others. For now though I would say no because there seems to be more showing it helps or does nothing than any evidence that it makes things worse.

thread

» Sugarshark on January 1st, 2021, 11:24pm

pretty sure there's broad laws against pornography 'where the actors appear to be below the age of majority'
the actual age is irrelevant to the greater social acceptability, for real people that are 19 but look 12 are ineligible for adult acting.

wonder why durrr

thread

» rokyun_ on January 1st, 2021, 11:51pm

I would really like to know more about this, do you have any source on it?

I'm not saying this to start an argument, since there's already one in this thread and all, but I would really like to know more since it piqued my curiosity and at first glance, all I could find was that -obviously- CESM is not allowed...

thread

» hahhah42 on January 2nd, 2021, 12:31am

Australia has laws to that effect. They attempted to expand upon that around a decade ago, as discussed in this thread.

thread

» Lorska on January 2nd, 2021, 12:53am

I'm a bit confused as to why this would be relevant as it's about videos and more importantly, actors. Which insinuates actual real breathing people doing stuff.

Isn't this completely unrelated to the completely fictional material of this discussion?

thread

» hahhah42 on January 2nd, 2021, 2:00am

Sugarshark brought up the matter, with the implication that if even legal adults can be banned from participating in pornography for fear of titillating pedophiles, loli/shota should be banned too. (Unless I'm misinterpreting.) rokyun apparently couldn't find any info about countries banning legal adults from porn for that particular reason, so I provided the only example I knew of offhand.

In any case, I wouldn't say it's unrelated. The underlying motivation in either ban is the same—neither situation involves actual children, so the focus is on appearances rather than results.

thread

» Transdude1996 on January 2nd, 2021, 7:30am

Quote from hahhah42
In any case, I wouldn't say it's unrelated. The underlying motivation in either ban is the same—neither situation involves actual children, so the focus is on appearances rather than results.

It's even over appearance anymore. You unironically have people sending death threats to game developers because having big breasted characters is now "illegal" somehow (I wish you could make this shit up).

thread

» dreamer00013 on January 2nd, 2021, 10:05am

Please. Developers of games get death threats for nearly everything now. Even voice actors get death threats just for voicing a controversial character. (See last of us 2 for that)
People being hateful idiots on the internet is nothing new.

thread

» Transdude1996 on January 2nd, 2021, 11:05am

Quote from dreamer00013
Please. Developers of games get death threats for nearly everything now. Even voice actors get death threats just for voicing a controversial character. (See last of us 2 for that)

The death threats to Naught Dog I can understand because they're a 35 year old AAA developer, who's actions over the past several years (Druckman forcing Amy Hennig out of the picture, butchering Uncharted, pulling publicity stunts that are losing fans and supporters) have seriously damaged their image (To the point that the question of the Game Awards being rigged is a serious topic, especially when looking at public opinion) and people are angry because they don't approve of the direction the company is heading.
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
I'm not condoning it (I think anything of the sort is a waste of everyone's time, and that money speaks louder than words), but I can understand why people are mad in that regard.

However, the death threats towards Top Hat Studios over their independent horror game with tits (To the point that they're making a public statement, and part of the reason why people even know about the game now) is completely left field. Especially when the last time I heard about these guys was when Steam was banning their yaoi VNs and their response was that they're going to make their own Steam with blackjack and hookers.

thread

» rokyun_ on January 2nd, 2021, 8:29am

Thank you, I guess I didn't know how to search up that specifically! I was aware of the Australia ban on the second link but not on the frst link.

In the end it just depends from county to county instead of a "universal law" kinda thing.

This article seems to be interesting, with the IWF being hosted in UK, where cartoons are included in the exploitation laws against children. While the article didn't say what sources of tips couldn't be traced, and once they're not hosted in UK nothing can be done, I do think there's a great chance some of those images were simply lolisho art ppl found on twitter.

There's also the incident on twitter (lol yeah, I know) where an account dedicates to "expose people for being suspicious" literally got banned after posting actual CESM and encouraging its followers to report them.
This was a mistske because by reposting THE VERY GRAPHIC AND GROTESQUE IMAGES OF ACTUAL GIRLS BEING ABUSED he had found on twitter for the sake of reporting, they had actually shared the content, which is a crime in the US.
What should have happened was that they should have just submitted the tip. Since by downloading the images onto their computer and sharing it, even if they had good intentions, they saved and shared illegal content.

The user then returned a couple of days later and still claims they did nothing wrong.


I guess in the end it just makes me angry people equate irl abuse and sexual exploitation of children who will be traumatized to something like lolisho... 2D lines won't be traumatized.

thread

» Lorska on January 2nd, 2021, 12:40am

@sloez
Coming in to insult both people after an argument is a pretty poor show, so how about you just stay on topic?


I do find it amusing that nobody of the pro ban people has addressed the problem with there being zero proof or even suggestion that the whole thing is harmful. Might as well go back to burning witches at that point. Or books. I heard both of these were highly successful in protecting people from harm.
Oh wait.

I'd rather ban all isekai cause that's obviously harmful to all those truck drivers that have to experience the emotional burden of having people die to their vehicles.
Hey we might actually have a chance with this one if we link it to suicide rates.

thread

» sloez on January 2nd, 2021, 4:22am

lol i wasnt insulting 2 ppl tho?? i thought i only "insulted" 1🙁

thread