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New Poll - Artist Controversies
This week's rather serious poll was suggested by jacob66. If an artist is involved in some scandal or controversy, does that affect how you view their works? For manga examples, there's MATSUKI Tatsuya and ACT-AGE and WATSUKI Nobuhiro and Rurouni Kenshin.

You can submit poll ideas here
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903

Previous Poll Results:
Question: Preferred digital reading mode
Choices:
Don't care - votes: 123 (4.8%)
Display two pages at a time, click to go to next pages - votes: 141 (5.5%)
Display all pages at once in vertical scrolling fashion - votes: 1502 (58.6%)
Display one page at a time, click to go to next page - votes: 796 (31.1%)
There were 2562 total votes.
The poll ended: October 16th 2021

I'm curious if MangaDex has public stats on what settings users have
Posted by lambchopsil on 
October 16th 7:19am
Comments ( 32 )  
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Comments

» Ceiye on October 16th, 2021, 1:30am

Haven't we had several variants of this question in the past year already? My answer is still the same-- their actions and controversies may or may not be reflected in their work, but it certainly does recontextualize some of them

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» hahhah42 on October 16th, 2021, 6:13am

It looks like the last time this topic came up as referring to authors was in 2017, after the Watsuki Nobuhiro news broke. Though you may be remembering the "spouse is a murderer" poll, which is somewhat related.

There have been some other crime related polls, involving amnesia, lobotomy as punishment, etc., but none of them were author-focused.

Also, I'll note that Manga Sagawa-san still hasn't been translated, since I brought it up in the 2017 thread.

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» LazyCat3 on October 16th, 2021, 4:19am

there should be an option, it depends on the the controversy, we can't compere child pornography/pedophilia and real rape with inapropiate touching. But in general I prefer to avoid (if i know) stuff made by heavily mentally ill/sick people who do disturbing crimes.

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» kurotaito on October 16th, 2021, 6:03am

Yes Like there really is no reason to give your time & money to someone who has done an extreme wrong, when there are like thousand of copycats & derivatives that exist in that same area.

The artist's work is good but does work compare to artist 55, 135, 1001?! You'll find something, its just annoying that you have to look.

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» residentgrigo on October 16th, 2021, 6:27am

Yes, art is an expression of the individual so who they are and what they do matters as art can´t be meaningless but basic definition. It expresses something and a person or group came up with it all but there are degrees to this. Lethal Weapon is more than Mel Gibson. He simply executed a role that could have been cast differently and he wasn´t in charge of the production. His The Passion of the Christ on the other hand was directed, produced and written by him. It is more than a violent Bible epic. It´s his barely filtered personal view on life and religion caught on film so we have to factor in his actual opinions on jews (at the time) and his bizarre obsession with suffering. Both poison the in itself well-done film beyond repair.

Kenshin doesn´t immediately fall apart after knowing that it was made by a pedophile who got away scot free as such content isn´t in the manga. Misao is a reasonable 16, is never sexualized and the decade older Aoshi shows no interest in her crush on him so the work itself is "untainted". I can continue to recommend the work. My opinion on it still "changes" as I now know what sort of hypocrite made. The quirky author interviews in the manga are now unreadable on the other hand and I have no interest in supporting the man further. Viz correctly canceled his sequel as they would continue to support an abuser otherwise but the original is still on Manga Plus. Is that justified? The manga is an important part of Jump´s history and truly in the past so you are giving people (limited) access to comic history but some sort of check is still being signed. That moral quandary is harder to answer.

On a more positive note. My favorite author Grant Morrison unsurprisingly came out as non-binary in 2020 and that too changed my opinion on their work. The personal touches are now easier to see in the often politically charged work and the many queer characters appear in a new light. My better understanding of the person who made these comics let me understand them even better. I don´t like these comics more or less not but I "get" some of them better.

Finally. Cancel Culture Isn't A Thing, You Snowflakes - Some More News - Sep 25, 2019:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szybEhqUmVI&t=474s
Dave Chappelle is featured due to his mediocre and weird AF 2019 special. How timely. I wonder how many awards he will win for his even more of the the rails and rather hate-filled 2021 special. The last one won 4. Chuck Palahniuk (Fight Club), a gay man, came up with that term in 1996 and Nobuhiro Watsuki continues being a bestseller in Japan with 2 movies based on his manga freshly released. 2 years passed and Cody remains right. Cancel Culture = Fake News

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» Nekore on October 16th, 2021, 8:54pm

On a tangent about the Chappelle special, because part of how a view it first was the same as I view some anime/manga, I knew nothing of the guy and just checked it as I have been watching other comedy on the platform, I may have stopped 5-10 minutes in because it was simply not funny, he was being edgy for the sake of being edgy just like there's gore that's just there for the impact value without adding feeling the story.

Though there are better representatives of each case Psycho-Pass first and second season are a good contrast of it, where in the first the dominator executions add weight and many times they "move the camera" partially away from the explosion the second season put them in a pedestal in order to compesate for a lesser plot.

But indeed many times where people start crying about cancel culture it just happens that the work people are criticizing just isn't good.

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» Transdude1996 on October 16th, 2021, 10:49pm

Quote from residentgrigo
His The Passion of the Christ on the other hand was directed, produced and written by him. It is more than a violent Bible epic. It´s his barely filtered personal view on life and religion caught on film so we have to factor in his actual opinions on jews (at the time) and his bizarre obsession with suffering.


If you stopped being so damn apologetic about your died ancestors following political beliefs that were popular at the time, you'd realize that not everything is about "DA JEWS". Especially when much of Western ideology and history does center itself around men suffering and struggling to find their way in the world.

Quote from residentgrigo
Dave Chappelle is featured due to his mediocre and weird AF 2019 special. How timely. I wonder how many awards he will win for his even more of the the rails and rather hate-filled 2021 special.

Quote from Nekore
On a tangent about the Chappelle special, because part of how a view it first was the same as I view some anime/manga, I knew nothing of the guy and just checked it as I have been watching other comedy on the platform, I may have stopped 5-10 minutes in because it was simply not funny, he was being edgy for the sake of being edgy just like there's gore that's just there for the impact value without adding feeling the story.


What did he actually say that got people so ticked off? I haven't seen this much talk about a black people and gay sex in the same sentence since the "Totally 100% accurate fact-based documentary that has absolutely nothing to do with my S&M fantasies" that was Buck Breaking. And, if it really is complaining about the guy being "edgy", the clips I have seen of him led me to believe that is his shtick, so what's wrong with that now?

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» Nekore on October 22nd, 2021, 5:06pm

I don't think people really got ticked off, but people disliking it made one side to claim it was because they got ticked off, and as I said I got no problem with edgy, but if you're doing a comedic special be funny when you're doing it, as you say it's a shtick and it seemed poorly written (or acted) when I watched the special.

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» Transdude1996 on October 22nd, 2021, 5:27pm

Quote from Nekore
I don't think people really got ticked off

Give how they Netflix is losing creators and having their staff walking out of their offices over this, stating that they're "ticked off" is putting it mildly. Let me ask again, what did he actually say? If it was just an unfunny joke, alright, move on and don't pay attention to the guy anymore. However, the way that people are treating makes my think he got up on stage dressed as Hitler, started shouting "Gas the Jews", and turned the entire thing into an unironic political rally for the Fourth Reich.

Wait a second, Monty Python already did that 50 years ago. NEVER MIND!

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» Jooles on October 17th, 2021, 4:28am

You could at the very least also realize and/or mention that Gibson was an alcoholic, which taints every single word coming out of his mouth.

Though whatever. This entire piece was just... embarassing. Please try to acknowledge nuances and looking at things from more than your own angle in the future. This is some 2D-bullshieeeeeeeeet.

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» docdesanta on October 16th, 2021, 7:41am

As much as I enjoy the works of some artists and try the "separate the art from the artist" approach, I honestly just can't. While I do understand that one act doesn't necessarily define a person, sometimes they just seem too heinous to ignore.

When I was younger I loved Chris Benoit. Then well, things happened.

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» Transdude1996 on October 16th, 2021, 11:46am

No. A good book is a good books, regardless of how scummy the author is; and a terrible book is a terrible book, regardless of how virtuous the author is. Whether or not I would continue sponsoring the guy and giving him attention is a completely different question.

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» sloez on October 16th, 2021, 6:04pm

tbh it's hard for me to separate art from the artist cuz I don't feel like it's right to read/watch/listen to things from bad people. Like if an artist said something racist to black ppl I'm probably gonna stop listening to their music because I'm black and it just doesn't feel right 😳 honestly IDC care if you separate art from the artist unless it's the art that's the problematic thing.

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» ZiBaXn on October 16th, 2021, 6:09pm

I can call a morally corrupt person a great artist who make great work. Jackson is a great artist, but a questionable person. Cosby has done a lot of humanitarian work and has helped the black community in so many ways....but he is a convicted rapists. Being a good artist doesn't make a good person. Being a good person doesn't make your art better

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» vigorousjammer on October 17th, 2021, 8:12am

To me, it depends on if the work is the person themselves.

People have mentioned wrestlers and actors, and in these cases the person is front-facing.

I can't separate the character of Hulk Hogan from the racist individual of Terry Bollea.
I can't look at a match featuring Chris Benoit and not think of him as a murderer.
I can't watch JonTron's videos without seeing him as a racist piece of shit.

And that's because there's no separation between the individual and what they're putting out there...

I can still read a chapter of Rurouni Kenshin and not think about Nobuhiro Watsuki's child pornography scandal.
I can still watch a Harry Potter movie and not think about J. K. Rowling's horribly transphobic rhetoric on Twitter.
I can still listen to a musical artist's songs without thinking about their personal scandals.
Heck, I can even still watch a movie starring Trump-supporting Clint Eastwood as long as he didn't write or direct it.

There just has to be something in place to separate the individual from the work, and when there is, that makes me generally okay with it.
Of course, the main thing would be to not support the works of people who I find to be horrible individuals, so piracy can be kind of useful in these cases. However, even if I no longer want to support one of the creators of a work... my opinions of the work itself still do not change, especially if I held those opinions prior to the creator's scandal.

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» NoKissNoLife on October 17th, 2021, 9:55am

imo, what an artist produces is an expression of how he feels at the very moment he produces it.

So what he produces is also an expression of who he is at that very moment.

But i think people can change.

But the thing here is about scandals and controversies isn't it ? Morality is not the same in every place or in every moment of human history. It evolves like everything. And so does art.

I think that judging someone for what he did in terms of morality is one thing. And judging him in terms of artistic production is another. If you mix it, you're judging the source instead of the idea.

That mix might be profitable for the morality in question, but definitely not for the artistic value of what's been produced by the artist.

That said, i would clearly feel strange if i heard things that would shock me (in a bad way) about an artist i admire. But in the end, i think i would stick to the feeling of what i liked about the artist in the first place while thinking to myself "he was worth my admiration when he produced that one masterpiece".

Unfortunately (or fortunately?), we're not as strong as we would want to be, we all can change and same goes for how we feel. And an artist's feelings are the key for his work i guess, so for me it's a no. The key to art is how it affects those experiencing it, so it's separate from the artist.

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» Joese on October 17th, 2021, 3:26pm

No, the key to art is how it affects those experiencing it so it's separate from the artist.

The life an artist has obviously influences their works, but most artists know how to differentiate their personal lives from their "artistic persona". For some "influencers" and celebrities whose main mean of divulgation is the exposure of their personal life and those that don't know how to distinguish, it might matter.

I think it's especially important to differentiate between artist and person when stuff gets political or penal. I've heard many Michael Jackson saying it's imposible for him to be bad without any basis. For example, in some countries actors use that false impression to become politicians or embezzle. At times artists end up becoming activist of dubious enterprises ,others may even try to justify shady stuff or even crimes .

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» hkanz on October 17th, 2021, 7:37pm

They don’t change mine. That being said, I wouldn’t financially support a rapist or whoever by buying their works.

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» fishiiie on October 17th, 2021, 11:41pm

Yes. Fortunately or unfortunately, human judgement and bias exists and persists. It's hard to be objective. Can't separate the artist from their work, and vice versa.

Some good debate and sharing going on here though! Respect everyone's different opinions and thoughts.

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» Sugarshark on October 18th, 2021, 12:56am

the Chappelle thing was real bad; I think I'll not watch any future content from him. it was something done now in 2020s with all the understanding available before he decided to do what he did.

Kevin Spacey I'm more on the fence about. Things that happened between 10-40 years ago
If you're an influential person and someone is coming to you to get some strings pulled, (because you can't mentor an acting student[not your acting student] in 1-2 5hr sitdowns) how much advantage are you taking of them?
He's not the boss of anything; and can make whatever promises he wants.
I think his sexuality looms large in giving him somewhat of a pass; many new gay relationships in the 80's-early 90's had poor communication and were very slambam. He wasn't strangling street youth in suburban Chicago, he was making drunken passes at everything. No one ever claimed that he burnt their career after he was turned down, it's not Weinstein at all. All the court cases are paused/fell apart and he's paid no ooc settlements.

I kind of flipflop on this stuff.

I'll probably think something different the next time the poll comes around

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» residentgrigo on October 18th, 2021, 1:40pm

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/mel-gibson-j ohn-wick-prequel-continental-1235033041/
Mel Gibson just got a new gig on John Wick. You can't make this up. He recently saluted Trump after his failed coup (despite neither of them having served in the military, something even I have accomplished) but here we are. A Hollywood starring role! Kevin Spacey is currently working in Europe. Multiple female MCU actresses tried to bring back Joss Whedon this year. Etc.
This is the plot of the new Kevin Spacey film: "about a blind artist who can draw people from their voice and is wrongly accused of sexually abusing a child" - Variety. He plays a detective who has to prove the man´s innocence. The film finished filming in the summer. It's a small wonder that Spacey didn´t write his own version of "If I Did It". This role is somehow even worse though...

I wonder if Roman Polanski will consider him for his next film. He is still at it. Polanski´s 2019 Anti-Me Too movie won multiple highly prestigious awards amid 3 new (child) rape allegations! Yes, he is about to get a new film funded despite new rape charges and public protest. An Officer and a Spy is in itself a good adaptation of the historic Dreyfus Affair but Roman Polanski being the 21st century Dreyfus is quite the take. Giving it a 7/10 on IMDB fucking hurt as it is one of the most amoral films in years considering the circumstances. At least he never got any of my money.
So yeah. Cancel Culture continues being an Alt-Right/Right-Wing boogeyman. It's about as real as Bigfoot.

PS: Bill Cosby still has an official Twitter account. It´s currently blasting back against a newly filed drug/rape lawsuit. On the day it was publically announced too. Sorry Bigfoot. You might be more real than Cancel Culture.

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» Transdude1996 on October 19th, 2021, 10:12am

Quote from residentgrigo
Mel Gibson just got a new gig on John Wick. You can't make this up. He recently saluted Trump after his failed coup (despite neither of them having served in the military, something even I have accomplished) but here we are.

Couple of things. First, turn off the news; even the FBI admits that nothing happened on January 6 beyond protesting. Second, if you don't like the guy, then just ignore him and treat him with apathy. Silence and indifference is the worst marketing a company can ask for.

Personally, I haven't liked the John Wick films myself beyond the first, so, as much as I like Gibson's films, I don't plan on watching it.

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» likm on October 25th, 2021, 11:37pm

Quote
First, turn off the news; even the FBI admits that nothing happened on January 6 beyond protesting.

The FBI currently believes that the riot was not centrally coordinated, the FBI never said that "nothing happened...beyond protesting"!
The United State's Attorney's Office in D.C. labels January 6th an attack on the US Capitol. The FBI has a wanted list for US Capitol violence. When a protest turns violent it is no longer called a protest, it's called a riot!

I would suggest that you get better sources...

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» Transdude1996 on October 26th, 2021, 7:10am

Quote from likm
I would suggest that you get better sources...

You're saying I should take the MSM and politician's word that an event that amounted to an unguided tour of the capital build, as you had boomers wondering around like they were a lost child at a shopping mall, and the only actually death was an officer shooting an unarmed woman, is an even worse event than 9/11, where four planes killed 3000 people?

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» wansmor on October 18th, 2021, 11:45pm

It comes to individual. but for me myself, it should not matter (in that I can still enjoy their work) because think of it this way: they have their work supervised by editor and other people as well. If I were to reject an artist work because of his behavior, it's like I put others who also work on said product in same bracket as the actual guilty ones, and it doesn't feel fair.

Anyway, this might not be directly related to the poll, but somehow Mangaplus is still showing Rurouni Kenshin (depspite Watsuki's case being frequently cited in this discussion) while they rooted out Act Age completely. which is a curious case.

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» HikaruYami on October 19th, 2021, 5:49am

I mean, it empirically does affect how I interact with those works--I still enjoy the original Rurouni Kenshin, for instance, but I haven't been able to stomach the Hokkaido Arc since Watsuki came back to manga. And if, as the worst possible example, we found out that Oda was a child molestor, I might not even be able to quit One Piece cold turkey before it ends, but I'd certainly stop recommending it to people in the hope that Oda earns less money as a result.

However, I took this question to mean "from the perspective of an art critic" and answered No. When evaluating art itself, you should be attempting to do so objectively. Certainly, Watsuki's... proclivities... didn't factor into Kenshin at all, and as a result, it'd be highly disingenuous to say "this is a worse manga now than it was before". However, you can still say "don't buy volumes of the manga because doing so gives money to child sex trafficking".

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» mallika23 on October 19th, 2021, 12:47pm

This is a hard question. I know a few mangaka which I respected turns out to have "scandal" (sexual assault, child pornography). I still love their works too.
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
CMIIW, but I heard Nobuhiro Watsuki got involved in a child pornography scandal a while ago. I was dissapointed when I heard that, but I still consider Ruroni Kenshin as one of my favorite.


But I also know some writers who often wrote about humanism, social justice, injustice, exploitation, tolerance, etc turns out to made some big blunders in reality. These blunders was the opposite of what they wrote in their works. This honestly made me change my perception of them and their works.

For this poll, I decided to be absent, since I couldn't decide one of them.. I think it depends on what kind of blunders they made, what kind of works they wrote, etc.

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» linasama on October 19th, 2021, 7:17pm

well on one hand if you already have smth of them and you like what they did, then its fine to separate it. But if one knows about their bad doings then i believe we should not support them by buying their stuff. Like you know their art is good, but i would not want to help them by consuming what they sell, but again, if i already have something of them, then well, its already mine, so.

Recognizing they make good things is one thing, but supporting them by buying their stuff is another

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» animalia on October 20th, 2021, 9:34am

On this subject what are people's thoughts on Thomas Mallory and Le Mort D'Art?

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» Transdude1996 on October 20th, 2021, 10:13am

https://infogalactic.com/info/Thomas_Malory
Quote
At this period, however, a charge of rape could also apply to consensual sex with a married woman whose husband had not agreed to the liaison.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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» calstine on October 20th, 2021, 6:39pm

No, the key to art is how it affects those experiencing it so it's separate from the artist.

I've never even thought of art being "an expression of the individual." It's a commercial piece made to entertain an audience and make money from them, so I'm pretty sure it's an expression of the artist's work personality and not their actual personality. And even if this were the case, who cares? I'm here to enjoy art/fiction/music, not to morally judge the creator. If they committed crimes they'll be punished for it, provided they're caught and convicted. If whatever they created is great, I'll still enjoy it regardless.

Also, the irony in the first option is that in the case of a criminal artist who hasn't got exposed, people will continue to praise their creations, possibly while condemning a similar work by someone who did get caught committing a relatively minor crime.

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» MarinBlue27 on October 22nd, 2021, 11:11pm

Frankly, no it does not in most cases. I go into fiction for the stories and characters, not for the creator specifically. So normally if a creator of what I like was found out to be horrible, I'll note not to give them money but I'll still see their work about the same.

The main exception is when a creator preaches a message but go against that in real life. The hypocrisy would make me see the work in lesser light.

An example I could bring is Blizzard. I never played their games, but I can imagine their fans see the games differently now, with their dirty laundry brought to light.

After their claims of being progressive and for equality they turned out to have one of the most sexist and abusive work cultures. That as we may know likely caused a suicide.

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