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New Poll - Japanese Fluency
This week's poll is from Sapphiresky. What's your fluency in Japanese?
You can submit poll ideas here (and try to keep them manga/anime-related)
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903
Previous Poll Results:
Question: I am ___ and prefer reading this kind of romance series
Choices:
Straight and like reading boy / girl romance - votes: 6396 (51.8%)
Straight and like reading same-sex romance - votes: 2229 (18.1%)
Gay / Lesbian and like reading boy / girl romance - votes: 77 (0.6%)
Gay / Lesbian and like reading same-sex romance - votes: 321 (2.6%)
Bisexual and like reading boy / girl romance - votes: 310 (2.5%)
Bisexual and like reading same-sex romance - votes: 693 (5.6%)
Asexual and like reading boy / girl romance - votes: 320 (2.6%)
Asexual and like reading same-sex romance - votes: 547 (4.4%)
Other and like reading boy / girl romance - votes: 98 (0.8%)
Other and like reading same-sex romance - votes: 261 (2.1%)
I just hate romance series - votes: 1092 (8.8%)
There were 12344 total votes.
The poll ended: March 21st 2015
So many people hate romance...
You can submit poll ideas here (and try to keep them manga/anime-related)
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903
Previous Poll Results:
Question: I am ___ and prefer reading this kind of romance series
Choices:
Straight and like reading boy / girl romance - votes: 6396 (51.8%)
Straight and like reading same-sex romance - votes: 2229 (18.1%)
Gay / Lesbian and like reading boy / girl romance - votes: 77 (0.6%)
Gay / Lesbian and like reading same-sex romance - votes: 321 (2.6%)
Bisexual and like reading boy / girl romance - votes: 310 (2.5%)
Bisexual and like reading same-sex romance - votes: 693 (5.6%)
Asexual and like reading boy / girl romance - votes: 320 (2.6%)
Asexual and like reading same-sex romance - votes: 547 (4.4%)
Other and like reading boy / girl romance - votes: 98 (0.8%)
Other and like reading same-sex romance - votes: 261 (2.1%)
I just hate romance series - votes: 1092 (8.8%)
There were 12344 total votes.
The poll ended: March 21st 2015
So many people hate romance...
Comments (limited to first 100 replies)
» auriga on March 21st, 2015, 12:26am
Perhaps the "I know only the basics" option can be split into "I can read hiragana/katakana/some kanji" and "I know some basic syntax."
» RoxFlowz on March 21st, 2015, 12:44am
I know a lot and can read simple stuff like manga (especially with furigana) without any problems, but am still far from fluent. Watching news is still a a pain :/
» Banarok on March 21st, 2015, 3:26am
i feel the same, i'm still quite a bit lower then you though since i usually encounter a few kanji i don't know every manga i read, usually i can fish out what they mean from context but i look them up to be sure.
but i'm studying Japanese atm so hopefully it will just keep improving
but i'm studying Japanese atm so hopefully it will just keep improving
» Trimutius on March 21st, 2015, 4:26am
I have been learning Japanese for only like a year, so only basics, can understand something, but mostly I still don't know much of kanji...
» residentgrigo on March 21st, 2015, 4:57am
I am glad that we survived another sexuality discussion on the web with no causalities but the romance agnostics number is shocking low.
I decided to go against basics and stick with Bits and pieces from anime / manga but that is a work in progress.
I decided to go against basics and stick with Bits and pieces from anime / manga but that is a work in progress.
» quark1020 on March 21st, 2015, 5:12am
I am straight and I.....oh, its not one of those polls......
AHEM! Anyway, after watching anime and reading manga for about 17 years, I think I picked up plenty of vocabulary and a couple of phrases to have a head start in learning the language. If I new the proper sentence structure for the language, I might even learn to speak it. However, due to a chronic condition I have, called LAZINESS, I have been thus far unable to learn the language in full.
AHEM! Anyway, after watching anime and reading manga for about 17 years, I think I picked up plenty of vocabulary and a couple of phrases to have a head start in learning the language. If I new the proper sentence structure for the language, I might even learn to speak it. However, due to a chronic condition I have, called LAZINESS, I have been thus far unable to learn the language in full.
» Chainless on March 21st, 2015, 5:37am
I have studied japanese in university for 1,5 years now (it's my major) and I can read manga and books pretty well with a help of a dictionary (there are just so many kanjis...) but I'm not completely fluent yet.
» -shiratori- on March 21st, 2015, 5:52am
I'm pretty good at reading and understanding stuff, and in translating said stuff to English. But I don't have anyone to talk to in Japanese, so my actual conversation skills are very limited.
And I don't know a whole lot of Kango. When reading and not translating, I usually just gloss over the ones I don't know and guess their meaning based on their Kanji parts.
And I don't know a whole lot of Kango. When reading and not translating, I usually just gloss over the ones I don't know and guess their meaning based on their Kanji parts.
» train93 on March 21st, 2015, 7:03am
The "bits and pieces from anime / manga" option is popular, because it is picked either by people who don't feel confident enough in their Japanese to choose the "I know the basics" option, and by people who know just a couple of words out of context, which for me doesn't really qualify as knowledge. I mean, I've heard about "kawaii", "ecchi", "kage", "ningen" etc. before, but I still chose "none".
» secretdesires on March 21st, 2015, 8:35am
Bring out the weeaboos...
» mikako17 on March 21st, 2015, 9:18am
I wish I understood Japanese better than I do, but I lent out my textbooks from when I took the class to a friend who's never returned them, so I'm having a hard go at that. I still remember words and grammar but with the lack of practice I've gotten much worse at it since even just a year ago.
Personally I just love learning different languages and understanding different cultures. This definitely had me diving into grammar, syntax, and usage within the English language and language logic itself.
Personally I just love learning different languages and understanding different cultures. This definitely had me diving into grammar, syntax, and usage within the English language and language logic itself.
» RoxFlowz on March 21st, 2015, 10:16am
Quote from mikako17
I wish I understood Japanese better than I do, but I lent out my textbooks from when I took the class to a friend who's never returned them, so I'm having a hard go at that. I still remember words and grammar but with the lack of practice I've gotten much worse at it since even just a year ago.
Personally I just love learning different languages and understanding different cultures. This definitely had me diving into grammar, syntax, and usage within the English language and language logic itself.
Personally I just love learning different languages and understanding different cultures. This definitely had me diving into grammar, syntax, and usage within the English language and language logic itself.
You can find almost all textbooks online, if you don't mind downloading stuff. I find learning languages extremely interesting as well, and though it might be difficult sometimes, learning Japanese definitely is fun.
I would love to learn Korean as well someday, but I guess that won't happen anytime soon
» vivant on March 21st, 2015, 9:47am
I wanted to choose "I know only the basics" but I realized that's absolutely wrong few days ago..
I took a placement test for Japanese language lesson. Reading hiragana is fine, I know most katakana (tsu, shi, n, so are the ones I can't remember till now), and managed to understand few words that I know from anime / manga.
But then the grammar nation came... TT__________TT
Even understanding a sentence is super difficult, the only one I can understand completely is "hajimemashite, watashi wa ........... " (introduction speech)
Well, it makes me want to learn Japanese better.
I took a placement test for Japanese language lesson. Reading hiragana is fine, I know most katakana (tsu, shi, n, so are the ones I can't remember till now), and managed to understand few words that I know from anime / manga.
But then the grammar nation came... TT__________TT
Even understanding a sentence is super difficult, the only one I can understand completely is "hajimemashite, watashi wa ........... " (introduction speech)
Well, it makes me want to learn Japanese better.
» drunkguy on March 21st, 2015, 11:10am
Took some classes in college but I never really got to use it. At this point, I'm at the basic level of ordering food, asking for directions and screaming for help. 
» Sakura_Hikizaki on March 21st, 2015, 2:12pm
Second option for me~
I've been studying Japanese for almost 4 years now. While I don't believe I'm at "native fluency" I can understand about 90% of the things I come across (I currently translate manga/celeb blog posts/magazines.). However, my speaking skills are still lacking as I don't have much time to practice with native speakers like before.
I've been studying Japanese for almost 4 years now. While I don't believe I'm at "native fluency" I can understand about 90% of the things I come across (I currently translate manga/celeb blog posts/magazines.). However, my speaking skills are still lacking as I don't have much time to practice with native speakers like before.
» zarlan on March 21st, 2015, 3:14pm
Different people might interpret the answer very differently.
What counts as "the basics"?
What counts as "a lot"? (what I went with)
What counts as "most things"?
(not to mention the Dunning-Kruger effect, but that's unavoidable)
Due to circumstances outside of my control, I have not been able to take any proper course in Japanese (though I would love to) ...but from a bit of learning online, and over a decade of anime and manga ...and, after learning kana and a kanji or two, making occasional rare attempts at reading manga with plenty of furigana, or playing some old video game (JRPGs mainly ...and often ones I've played in English) in Japanese...
I've been able to pick up a thing or two.
I've watched a few kids anime, and been able to mostly understand the gist of what was being said (or so I believe).
Lately I've been reading a bit more raw manga, even when they don't have furigana on every kanji (though, as before, never fully understanding them ...well except the extremely easy to read Chii's Sweet Home, where I only occasionally don't fully get it).
...but I have noticed a bit of a problem.
This is hardly surprising, as watching anime is just about the worst way to learn Japanese, and seeing kanji in manga or games (even with furigana), is hardly the best way to learn them.
I don't have a solid foundation, on the basics. The most basic of basics, I know well, sure.
Beyond that, I know bits and pieces.
A lot of the basics, most perhaps, but not all ...and bits and pieces beyond the basics.
I've learned to recognize many kanji, by their general shape ...but I get them mixed up with other kanji, even when they are very different in both meaning and shape. 寄 and 客 are very different ...but I guess because the top bit is the same, I thought they were the same, for a while.
Now if I learned to write the kanji, I'd learn them properly. (there are some who think that learning to write them is unnecessary. They are idiots. Learning to write, helps you to learn to read ...and anyone who thinks that handwriting is no longer necessary in this digital age, is an ignorant fool. Try to not write by hand, for the rest of your life, and see how well that goes)
That said, I seem to be a step above some scanlators/fansubbers... (and that's when I don't even count those who's translations aren't understandable English. I can't really judge if there's a flaw in their understanding of Japanese ...as they fail at the far more important issue of knowing their target language)
What counts as "the basics"?
What counts as "a lot"? (what I went with)
What counts as "most things"?
(not to mention the Dunning-Kruger effect, but that's unavoidable)
Due to circumstances outside of my control, I have not been able to take any proper course in Japanese (though I would love to) ...but from a bit of learning online, and over a decade of anime and manga ...and, after learning kana and a kanji or two, making occasional rare attempts at reading manga with plenty of furigana, or playing some old video game (JRPGs mainly ...and often ones I've played in English) in Japanese...
I've been able to pick up a thing or two.
I've watched a few kids anime, and been able to mostly understand the gist of what was being said (or so I believe).
Lately I've been reading a bit more raw manga, even when they don't have furigana on every kanji (though, as before, never fully understanding them ...well except the extremely easy to read Chii's Sweet Home, where I only occasionally don't fully get it).
...but I have noticed a bit of a problem.
This is hardly surprising, as watching anime is just about the worst way to learn Japanese, and seeing kanji in manga or games (even with furigana), is hardly the best way to learn them.
I don't have a solid foundation, on the basics. The most basic of basics, I know well, sure.
Beyond that, I know bits and pieces.
A lot of the basics, most perhaps, but not all ...and bits and pieces beyond the basics.
I've learned to recognize many kanji, by their general shape ...but I get them mixed up with other kanji, even when they are very different in both meaning and shape. 寄 and 客 are very different ...but I guess because the top bit is the same, I thought they were the same, for a while.
Now if I learned to write the kanji, I'd learn them properly. (there are some who think that learning to write them is unnecessary. They are idiots. Learning to write, helps you to learn to read ...and anyone who thinks that handwriting is no longer necessary in this digital age, is an ignorant fool. Try to not write by hand, for the rest of your life, and see how well that goes)
That said, I seem to be a step above some scanlators/fansubbers... (and that's when I don't even count those who's translations aren't understandable English. I can't really judge if there's a flaw in their understanding of Japanese ...as they fail at the far more important issue of knowing their target language)
» -shiratori- on March 21st, 2015, 3:43pm
Quote from zarlan
...but I have noticed a bit of a problem.
This is hardly surprising, as watching anime is just about the worst way to learn Japanese, and seeing kanji in manga or games (even with furigana), is hardly the best way to learn them.
I don't have a solid foundation, on the basics. The most basic of basics, I know well, sure.
Beyond that, I know bits and pieces.
A lot of the basics, most perhaps, but not all ...and bits and pieces beyond the basics.
I've learned to recognize many kanji, by their general shape ...but I get them mixed up with other kanji, even when they are very different in both meaning and shape. 寄 and 客 are very different ...but I guess because the top bit is the same, I thought they were the same, for a while.
Now if I learned to write the kanji, I'd learn them properly. (there are some who think that learning to write them is unnecessary. They are idiots. Learning to write, helps you to learn to read ...and anyone who thinks that handwriting is no longer necessary in this digital age, is an ignorant fool. Try to not write by hand, for the rest of your life, and see how well that goes)
This is hardly surprising, as watching anime is just about the worst way to learn Japanese, and seeing kanji in manga or games (even with furigana), is hardly the best way to learn them.
I don't have a solid foundation, on the basics. The most basic of basics, I know well, sure.
Beyond that, I know bits and pieces.
A lot of the basics, most perhaps, but not all ...and bits and pieces beyond the basics.
I've learned to recognize many kanji, by their general shape ...but I get them mixed up with other kanji, even when they are very different in both meaning and shape. 寄 and 客 are very different ...but I guess because the top bit is the same, I thought they were the same, for a while.
Now if I learned to write the kanji, I'd learn them properly. (there are some who think that learning to write them is unnecessary. They are idiots. Learning to write, helps you to learn to read ...and anyone who thinks that handwriting is no longer necessary in this digital age, is an ignorant fool. Try to not write by hand, for the rest of your life, and see how well that goes)
Well, I learned basically all of the kanji I know just by reading and I rarely mix them up. But yeah, learning to write them is better. I used to practice writing with a phone app, but I'm lazy so I haven't done it in ages~~
» zarlan on March 21st, 2015, 7:52pm
Quote from -shiratori-
Well, I learned basically all of the kanji I know just by reading and I rarely mix them up.
Well, maybe you do it more properly than me, or something...
I do have a program for writing well, on my Nintendo DS, but it's for Japanese people who need to practice handwriting. It shows no info on what the kanji means or anything. It just shows the kanji, and tells you to write it properly, and grades your handwriting.
I really should find a good way/source/method for learning to write kanji...
(I'd do well to practice writing, in general, what with my poor handwriting, but that's a separate issue)
Oh, and I'd like to add that I have no trouble with pronounciation.
I've heard a lot of people who've learned Japanese, even very good Japanese, speaking with a quite noticable accent ...which I find a bit puzzling.
Japanese has very few sounds, and they're fairly common ones, IMO.
I can understand not getting the R/L or F completely right (I'm still a bit confused, as to which range of sounds, that the R/L is), but the rest are fairly straightforward.
Granted, I might be a bit "spoiled", having grown up learning three languages (and, due to loanwords, a few extra sounds from a fourth)...
» CuthienSilmeriel on March 22nd, 2015, 11:19am
I'm a native English speaker who's only second language is Japanese, and I live in Japan, so maybe I can shed some light on this. I think the whole accent thing isn't about not being able to pronounce Japanese words. As you pointed out, the limited range of sounds makes it fairly easy to pick up the pronunciation. The biggest problem I and many others have here is that while our pronunciation is flawless, our intonation is very English, in that we stress too many syllables since English has a rising and falling intonation. Japanese has a very monotonous intinayion, and once you rise you don't fall until the sentence is finished. This is really hard for most native English speakers at least, probably for a few others. I know my Congolese friend has similar difficulty. My Hong Kong and Taiwanese friends, however, have no trouble with the intonation at all so I guess it depends on what your base language is.
» zarlan on March 22nd, 2015, 7:04pm
Quote from CuthienSilmeriel
5 years of living in Japan and I still feel like a complete beginner!
Part of that will be due to the fact that, the more you know about a topic, the more you realise about what you don't know about it.
Quote
I think the whole accent thing isn't about not being able to pronounce Japanese words.
Oh, but it is.
The sounds are often wrong.
Quote
As you pointed out, the limited range of sounds makes it fairly easy to pick up the pronunciation.
...but not always quite right.
They get a pronounciation that is "close enough" ...but quite noticeably non-native.
The most easily demonstrable example of this, though not that significant (as it doesn't cause that noticeable a difference, I think), is the previously noted example of how people use the F-sound they are used to [f], rather than the Japanese F-sound [ɸ].
Quote
The biggest problem I and many others have here is that while our pronunciation is flawless, our intonation is very English
Intonation is a part of pronunciation, not apart from it.
Quote
Japanese has a very monotonous intinayion, and once you rise you don't fall until the sentence is finished. This is really hard for most native English speakers at least, probably for a few others.
I wonder if Swedes have an advantage, in that area. Swedish is apparently know for its "melodic" nature, with it's tone/pitch/whatever. As a native speaker, I don't notice it myself, as I simply see it as normal (I no doubt would notice it, if I looked into it ...and I certainly notice if someone messes it up)
...and yeah, of course people who speak Chinese wouldn't have any trouble with it, whatsoever. Tone is an integral and such an obvious and explicit part of their language, so they'd never fail to notice it.
» CuthienSilmeriel on March 26th, 2015, 6:39am
Yes, that is definitely true! Every time I learn something new about Japanese I realise how far I am from achieving fluency. Being surrounded by native speakers is both a blessing and a curse, as I get to practice my Japanese, but I'm also being reminded of the massive gap between my current level and native level.
I disagree, I feel that, for the most part, Japanese sounds are easy to pick up and learn. True that Fu,(ふ) does not have the English F sound, but it does sound like Hu, like the Hoo sound an owl makes. Of all the Jaoanese syllables I think tsu (つ) is the hardest to both say and hear.
I'm afraid I have to disagree again as pronunciation and intonation are distinctly different aspects of a language, but that both are considered as accent.
I've not met any Swedes here, but Chinese speakers have no trouble with the accent at least. Out of all the Japanese learners I've met, Koreans definitely have the easiest time of it.
I disagree, I feel that, for the most part, Japanese sounds are easy to pick up and learn. True that Fu,(ふ) does not have the English F sound, but it does sound like Hu, like the Hoo sound an owl makes. Of all the Jaoanese syllables I think tsu (つ) is the hardest to both say and hear.
I'm afraid I have to disagree again as pronunciation and intonation are distinctly different aspects of a language, but that both are considered as accent.
I've not met any Swedes here, but Chinese speakers have no trouble with the accent at least. Out of all the Japanese learners I've met, Koreans definitely have the easiest time of it.
» zarlan on March 26th, 2015, 11:15am
Quote from CuthienSilmeriel
I disagree, I feel that, for the most part, Japanese sounds are easy to pick up and learn. True that Fu,(ふ) does not have the English F sound, but it does sound like Hu, like the Hoo sound an owl makes.
I utterly disagree.
There is nothing "hu"-like to ふ.
Plenty of sources that teach you the basics of Japanese, tend to claim that ふ is a sound somewhere betweem "fu" and "hu" ...which I simply do not understand, as I see now way in which that is even remotely true.
The Japanese F sounds about as much as H, as does a regular F.
I.e., not much at all.
(BTW, for those who'd like to know: With a regular F you touch the lower lip with ones teeth ...but for a Japanese F, you keep your teeth out of it, and simply open your mouth slightly, like for a "u" sound ...like when you say "you". Keep your mouth like that, and say F, and it'll be a [ɸ] sound)
Quote
Of all the Jaoanese syllables I think tsu (つ) is the hardest to both say and hear.
Why?
It's not like it doesn't exist in English (though it seems a bit uncommon, now that I tried to google it ...though I'd like to point out that I merely googled for words with "tsu" in them, whereas that combination of sounds might appear, using different spelling).
Wetsuit, for example. Sure you might say that the "wet" and "suit" are separate, but... there's no pause between the "t" and the "s", now is there? You pronounce it as "ts", not "t s"
Either way, it's not like English doesn't have [t] and [s]. Why saying [ts] should create any difficulties, I do not understand.
(stricktly speaking, its [t͡s], but that's essentially just what you get, if you pronounce a [t] and a [s] one after another, as far as I've understood it)
Quote
I'm afraid I have to disagree again as pronunciation and intonation are distinctly different aspects of a language, but that both are considered as accent.
Oh really?
*looks for definitons/descpritons of pronounciation *
"Pronunciation is the way a word or a language is spoken, or the manner in which someone utters a word. If one is said to have "correct pronunciation", then it refers to both within a particular dialect."
- Wikipedia
It then has a section on its meaning in lingustic terms, where it basically talks about it having to do with phones, which...
"A phone is a speech segment that possesses distinct physical or perceptual properties, and serves as the basic unit of phonetic speech analysis."
- Wikipedia
Phones are generally represented by the IPA phonetic alphabet ...which includes tone, stress, pitch...
"1. (countable) The formal or informal way in which a word is made to sound when spoken.
2. (uncountable) The way in which the words of a language are made to sound when speaking."
- Wiktionary
"Definition of pronounce in English:
verb
[with object]
1Make the sound of (a word or part of a word) in the correct or a particular way:"
- oxforddictionaries
...
How does any of that, exclude intonation?
Or can you show me some linguistic source, that explains how intonation is seperate from (rather than being a part of) pronounciation?
» Vicis on March 21st, 2015, 4:11pm
Studied Japanese, casually, for about 2 years in highschool (1 class a week). Teacher got to me, so I dropped it, but by then I had a basic understanding of the fundamentals of the language (enough to order food, ask for directions or partake in a simply conversation). As I've been watching anime ever since, my Japanese hasn't dulled much. I'm a bit rusty at speaking, but, if anything, my vocabulary has increased.
Languages have always come naturally to me (I picked up English in roughly 4 months), and I am at a point where, if I moved to Japan, I would become fluent in no time. The biggest blocker for me is obviously Kanji.
Languages have always come naturally to me (I picked up English in roughly 4 months), and I am at a point where, if I moved to Japan, I would become fluent in no time. The biggest blocker for me is obviously Kanji.
» Sapphiresky on March 21st, 2015, 6:05pm
"I know a lot but am not fluent"
I guess this sums it up. Back in the day I passed JLPT (old) L3, (then proceeded to fail nikyuu spectacularly and N3 by a fair margin). If I try I can translate stuff with the help of google and rikai-chan, but it's rather troublesome. I've forgotten far more kanji than I remember
I guess this sums it up. Back in the day I passed JLPT (old) L3, (then proceeded to fail nikyuu spectacularly and N3 by a fair margin). If I try I can translate stuff with the help of google and rikai-chan, but it's rather troublesome. I've forgotten far more kanji than I remember
» CuthienSilmeriel on March 22nd, 2015, 11:10am
5 years of living in Japan and I still feel like a complete beginner! Though since I came here with nothing and now I can survive daily life I guess I know more than I think I do. It's hard to judge when everyone around you is a native speaker, and don't even get me started on kanji! It's the bane of my life!!!
