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News Article
Upcoming Policy Changes (Doujinshi and Novels)
Several of us admins are currently in a discussion on the focus and direction of MangaUpdates. The more immediate changes would deal with how we treat doujinshi and novels. These policy changes are currently not in effect, but that could change at any moment, pending comments from you guys. Feedback is welcome.

Doujinshi:
Currently there is no limit on what is considered a doujinshi. We feel we need to narrow the scope instead of allowing anything. We will only be accepting doujinshi that are published and/or sold in stores (whether offline or online). A basic guideline would be that a release/series will only be approved if it can be found on http://www.doujinshi.org/. This means we'd be rejecting many of the shorter works, especially those from artists on http://www.pixiv.net/.

Please note that the MU definition of doujinshi is a derived work of an actual series. Original works are considered oneshots. There is no such thing as an "original doujinshi" on MU. This distinction has existed here for many years, so this last point is not a change in policy.

Novels:
We feel we need to bring the focus back to our primary purpose: manga/manhua/manhwa. Lately there's been a huge increase in web novels (I just did a CTRL+F with "Novel" on the main release page, and there's 114 instances). We will only be accepting novels that are directly related to existing manga, manhwa, or manhua (according to MU). This means most web novels will be rejected.

PS: We are still in discussions about what to do about artbooks and webtoons.
Posted by lambchopsil on 
June 14th 11:48pm
Comments ( 248 )  
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Comments (limited to first 100 replies)

» VawX on June 15th, 2015, 12:06am

First of all, when I see this I thought, "oh it seems to be a good thing", but then I remember that we just got that new filtering for novel, doujinshi, and stuff like that right mmm...~?

So I thought rather than rejecting most released stuff, isn't better to enhance the filtering and make it more user friendly (it's already good but some people don't really care about it yet because either they don't know or they'r too lazy to apply the filter mmm...

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» thevampirate on June 15th, 2015, 12:48am

Wouldn't it be better to separate the novels into a genere that way people who don't want novels can just ignore novels? if the top 25 are almost all novels that means they're getting releases and are popular? webtoons and novels have gotten to the point where that have eclipsed the manga releases but i think getting rid of them would hurt the community more than it would help. Just giving the option to hide it is better than completely removing them there's a lot of people who read them now.

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» m64 on June 15th, 2015, 1:41am

i think filtering it is the best option; unless it's a server/db issue. since novels have their own "type" it should be rather easy to set a filter option in user profiles for users who don't want to see it.

if it's tl'ed/edited i don't see why it shouldn't be included on the site. i'm personally in favor of keeping everything on the site; again unless it's a server/db issue.

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» deadphoenix on June 15th, 2015, 1:53am

Maybe it has something to do with the workload on the admin. They're probably annoyed by the long list of doujinshi and novels to moderate. And those releases are most of the time on an earlier release date so the admin has a lot of work.

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» m64 on June 15th, 2015, 2:48am

i'm an admin; it's not that hard... changing dates can be annoying when you got 40~ to change, since you have to do it from admin panel and not release mod page, but that doesn't happen that often.

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» thevampirate on June 15th, 2015, 3:15am

As a release mod its not a real problem with most releases but sometimes you'll get 50-100 old yaoi doujin releases all at once that you have to leave for admin. At worst sometimes you have to update a post earlier in the day to add a second chapter of a novel that was already released. I get the reason for the change its more just the amount of non manga releases are probably half of the updates (maybe more). I think that's more of an indicator of how the community has changed than a problem, updating the filtering system solves the problem without creating more issues for the people who read novels who I think have to be a large group of users.

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» frostmachine on June 15th, 2015, 2:25am

Agreed. Better to filter it than remove entirely. Over the years, there are already quite a bit of titles collected here. Dumping them seems such a waste. And it's not like there aren't any people reading them.

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» connerity on June 15th, 2015, 12:27am

I can agree with the changes, however, I'd like to advice you to keep webtoons.
The line between Korean manga and webtoons is so thin, there's no need to remove them.
It would be silly to lose highly popular series like Noblesse, Tower of God, etc.

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» luispauloml on June 15th, 2015, 2:17pm

Actually there are big differences between those two (manhwa and webtoons) since conception to publishing. But the thing is that webtoon is a really huge market now. I lived in Seoul and remember seeing lots of advertisement of famous webtoons and some that are now released in hardcopy.

Taking a look at how it is changing, I don't think it's unreasonable to quit tracking webtoon releases. The number of released series is increasing but now we have big aggregators which are also official publishers (Tapastic, for Daum; LINE Webtoon, for Naver and which uses MU). It is worth point that they also accept releases from Western artists.

The quality of their releases (specially LINE Webtoon regarding typesetting) still needs to be improved, but I feel they are doing a decent job most of times.

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» makoz on June 15th, 2015, 12:46am

Of all those potential changes, webtoons is the only one that matters to me. To be honest, I don't track any of the webtoons (that is if you are talking about LINE webtoon) on MU anymore since the app has a release schedule and i can see what's the last chapter I've read. If you mean webcomics in general, i'd defintely keep them since I keep track of them on here as well (plenty from mangacow and others).

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» deadphoenix on June 15th, 2015, 12:46am

I don't think it's a good idea. Their is indeed an increase in Doujinshi and Novels, but that is logic as their are a lot of doujinshi's, if you check around how many their are of Kuroke no basket for given an example then it's logic it gives a lot of work. I'm OK with only accepting official doujinshi's.

What about novels, well it is indeed to much on the moment. However their are more novels than their are manga, so that is normal. I'm not agreeing with it that just basically all those good novels are banned.

What about webcomics. Well, it's recommend that MU continues with them because it's only a matter of time and everything is a webcomic. Basically all manwha's have become webcomics, this movement will also start with the manga. Webcomics have some advantages as well for the publisher as for the reader. The reader has everything in full color and it's cheap or free, while the publisher only needs to do some mouse clicks and it's published, while publishing on paper is more complex.

What about artbooks, well it's a question mark for me confused I would only say to allow the ones that are made by the original mangaka.

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» baylee on June 15th, 2015, 1:57am

please dont take away my novels cry

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» Sorcha on June 15th, 2015, 2:29am

Regarding novel release
Personally, I'm following 20+ novel at the moment and will have problem keeping track of them if MU de-list them. I don't want to check 20+ website everyday just to kept track of novel updates.

Since the feeling from ln/wn is practically the same with manga, why reject them? The large number of ln/wn in new release is simply because most people didn't know about ln/wn, and only added them here after the recent novel boom. Wait until several month and the new release number will decrease by itself.

Regarding doujinshi, artbook & webtoon
I agree about the new rules for doujinshi, but removing webtoon won't do. As for artbook, I agree with deadpheonix's suggestion to only accept official art-book from original artist of manga/manhua/manhwa.

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» Laclongquan on June 15th, 2015, 2:33am

Active release portal of novel translation: www.aho-updates.com

It automatically update news of release and link to the page. Currently, there's no database like mangaupdates so it strictly report news of release.

With the new changes in MU, I think Aho and MU compliment well each other.

Although, if MU delete the entry of non-manga novels then readers are out of luck concerning that entry.

May I interest you in a compromise: NO reporting on release page, but still silently updating in the entry page. Example: series A got a new chapter done on site Z, that release news doesnt make it to release page, but the entry page still keep the report.

In effect, it's like an enforced filter put on release page that hide all those non-manga novel news.

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» nipukonno on June 15th, 2015, 2:43pm

and make it optional,
the normal release page is with the novel filter active
but you can deactivate it

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» Quantum Mechanic on June 15th, 2015, 2:48am

Lord, the gormless policy WRT fair-use of covers was bad enough, and now this? No more novels? That's BS. If you're worried about it "cluttering up" the release page, then add it as a genre so those who don't want to see it can filter it. But don't just remove content.

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» RoxFlowz on June 15th, 2015, 3:12am

I must admit it would be a bit troubling to have all novels removed from this site, though I can fully understand your point and it does make sense.
On the other hand, the aforementioned filtering does sound like a good idea to me.

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» jonytep on June 15th, 2015, 3:30am

I don't read doujinshi so I have no say in the matter, I guess. Keep them or exclude them, for me it's the same.

As for the novels,

-Could be added a new genre "Novel". It would help in the filtering;

-This is what I think would be an awesome feature: create a new section in the website, under "Releases", where the novel releases would be put. Something like "Novel Releases" would be nice, I think. It can't be that hard, right? Or can it? Then, there would be no need to remove any kind of novels, webnovels or not.

I'm saying this because there are web novels that are actually good and should not be left out, in my opinion... Stuff like Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou (Novel).

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» thevampirate on June 15th, 2015, 4:25am

Japanese Web Novels like Arifureta are the ones i feel most in danger with this change (It just recently got actual volumes/ official illustrations). A number of popular online Wuxia series have gotten their own Chinese web-manhwa and even a few print editions so they should be safe.
I do agree there should be some limits on doujin/webnovels because if its totally left open someone could start posting their Fanfics as OEL Novels, but series that are actually published (online or on paper) and are translated shouldn't be removed just because they've become almost as popular as manga.

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» RebeccaMiyamoto on June 15th, 2015, 3:57am

I strongly disagree with simply dumping everything that you've found undesirable. The very fact that they're being listed here is due to there being no decent alternative.

This is a problem which is easily solved with user filters and categorisation, I implore you to do that instead.

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» naeddyr on June 15th, 2015, 4:22am

Please don't remove novels or webnovels. If you do that, I guarantee there won't be any alternative for listings. Ahoupdates is so niche as it is that it will wither away in a year like all splinter-forums.

Just yesterday I was wondering if I should ask about a Novel or Text filter category.

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» TundraDweller on June 15th, 2015, 4:57am

Simply removing web novels? no That sounds like a terrible idea, to say the least. Please choose another method, like an option to filter regular manga, novels, and doujins. Novels are just as much a part of the experience as manga, more so in recent times and this will continue to grow. Filtering would be the answer, as far as I understand.

No comment on doujinshi as I don't read them.

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» sarangX33 on June 15th, 2015, 5:33am

Please don't take out the novels....

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» Nukah on June 15th, 2015, 8:34am

same, keep the novels

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» Vocah on June 15th, 2015, 5:40am

Please reconsider what to do with novels, filter them out of the release page for all I care but still allow them to be added to the db (I mainly keep up with series I follow through the "My Lists" page).

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» Draconic on June 15th, 2015, 5:52am

Please don't do this... Please... Removing web novels and other novels is the worst thing you can do.
And removing them based on whether it has a manga or not? That's just simply insane.

Novels need a new genre, or they need to be in a separate group altogether, but removing them is not a solution. Why do you need to restrict this site to what it was originally meant to be? Why can't you let it be what people need and want?

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» PROzess on June 15th, 2015, 6:02am

The site is called MANGAupdates for a reason, so just delete ALL novels without exception.

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» Corfal on June 15th, 2015, 8:52am

Shall we also remove all manhua and manhwa as well then? Since this is MANGAupdates.

OTOH, I agree with the sentiment in the context of removing novels (if it is going to be done regardless). If you're going to start removing novel submissions while keeping others based on certain specifications, removing all of them would make more sense.

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» shadowfigher on June 15th, 2015, 6:28am

I have been using this website for a long time for manga but recently seeing lot of Novels on Series Stats I decided to give one of the them a shot. Now I am a fan of Light novel so I must thank this site for that.
I will be sad to see Light novel disappear from this website.

Please don't stop LN to be posted here. I am sure a filter will be the best solution for everyone.

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» auriga on June 15th, 2015, 6:36am

Judging from the comments I don't think most of us are even on the same page, lol.

I agree with eliminating any grey area that may arise from multiple interpretations of what a "doujinshi" or a "novel" is. I'm guessing this is the essence of this move?

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» calstine on June 15th, 2015, 6:40am

I don't really care about doujinshi, since that can be filtered out of both searches and releases, but I'd really approve of your doing something about the recent influx of badly-written web novels by god-only-knows-who authors that are cluttering up everyone's release lists.

But at the same time, I don't want releases of novels by actual proficient authors that don't have a manga version to be removed from the MU database or filtered together with the others. Examples would be Kino's Journey (Novel), Ukikumo Shinrei Kitan (Novel), and Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria (Novel), just off the top of my head. Isn't there some way to standardise novels just like the aforementioned masterlist for doujinshi? For example, get rid of web novels by no-name authors and leave the ones by authors who're actually published officially in their countries (eg: those whose works are/were in print instead of just on a website)?

As of now I don't think webtoons should be removed, but perhaps if they become a plague like their novel counterparts... For now, maybe just have "webtoon/webcomic" within brackets after the title like you currently do with novels?

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» naeddyr on June 15th, 2015, 6:53am

If you start to consider yourself a gatekeeper of taste, you should also block 93% of all manga out there...

Please don't suggest that. It will just lead to tears.

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» auriga on June 15th, 2015, 7:03am

Hey, at least those manga are properly published.

The problem with webnovels is... Pretty much anyone can make one. I can start a blogspot site whenever I want, fill it with a narrative with some semblance of coherence and call it a "webnovel." Preferences aside, how do you distinguish my work from other webnovels?

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» calstine on June 15th, 2015, 7:08am

Quote
If you start to consider yourself a gatekeeper of taste, you should also block 93% of all manga out there...

Please don't suggest that. It will just lead to tears

I can suggest whatever I want, and so can you. That's the purpose of this topic in the first place, no?

And "gatekeeper of taste"? Hardly. I just feel that if we're going to put everything on the MU db like web novels and web comics by people who aren't officially published, we'll eventually end up listing original fiction (a la fiction.net of the english-speaking world), too, only in Japanese/Chinese/Korean. There should be a separate site for that. I don't come to mangaupdates to see Chinese/Korean/Japanese novels from obscure authors, I come here to see manga, and by extension manhua and manhwa (and light novels because they're pretty much manga with less pictures and more text). There needs to be some quality control, or else the huge influx of new series pages will mess up the site and make it difficult to find new titles we actually want to read through things like genre and category searches.

What MU will actually do is up to majority opinion, which currently seems to be in favour of keeping all the novels. I'm not going to post any more here, since I'm not in the habit of nagging -- I'll just wait and see, and accept whatever the site admins come up with. I suggest you do the same.

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» naeddyr on June 15th, 2015, 7:12am

Quote
I can suggest whatever I want, and so can you.


It was just a suggestion.

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» Tiannu on June 15th, 2015, 4:33pm

I personally read chinese novels(in chinese), and a lot of the "no-name" authors are actually quite popular on their respective sites, enough so that some actually get signed into a contract( or something similiar?), get assigned to an editor, and where reader pay money to read chapters. When the webnovel get really popular, they many actually release a printed copy...so there is a thin line Imo...
I believe some translators just translate whatever they like though, so this will be interesting...

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» cmertb on June 15th, 2015, 7:29am

While this site is called Manga Updates, I completely agree with these proposed changes.

Those who want doujins or novels can set up Novel Updates or Doujin Updates or whatever.

Not accepting anything whose source is self-published online seems like a good idea as well. Let there be a preliminary market filter before it is inflicted on the English speaking audience.

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» Draconic on June 15th, 2015, 9:06am

Quote from cmertb
Not accepting anything whose source is self-published online seems like a good idea as well.


Yeah, let's remove all the webcomics!
The Gamer? Get lost!
Soul Cartel? You still here??
Noblesse? Who needs it!
I don't read any of them, so I think this is a great idea!

Do you have any idea where this will lead? "It's not Novel Updates, it's Manga Updates." "Lets remove Manhwa next. I mean, it's Manga Updates. What are they doing here?"

Well, I'm not really worried about the future of this site. Let them remove the novels if they want to. I will probably remove MU from my bookmarks and homepage the same day, but who cares. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this will kill MU...

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» cmertb on June 15th, 2015, 9:21am

Are they self-published amateur works? If not, then you're barking up the wrong tree.

In response to some others, let's not descend into absurdity. In a site dedicated to manga, it is perfectly acceptable to have manga related content. The original proposal even allows for manga based novels, not to mention manhua and manhwa.

But how are self-published original online novels related to manga? This is a good place to draw the line, even if it's somehow inconvenient to you. Otherwise, for my own convenience, let's also start indexing j-drama fansubs. And I'm sure someone will want anime too. What's the problem with that? If you don't like it, filter it out.

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» Draconic on June 15th, 2015, 9:32am

Quote from cmertb
If you don't like it, filter it out.


Esactly. Mind telling me what's the relationship between "filtering them out" and "removing them"?

Manga based novels? Can't say I haven't seen one or two, but it's usually the other way around...
And what will they do, if they remove a novel, and the next week it's manga adaptation is announced?

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» cmertb on June 15th, 2015, 9:42am

You mean you agree with adding drama, anime, and games to this site, and let the users sort it out with their filters? OK...

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» cclark777 on June 15th, 2015, 9:51am

Quote from cmertb
But how are self-published original online novels related to manga? This is a good place to draw the line, even if it's somehow inconvenient to you. Otherwise, for my own convenience, let's also start indexing j-drama fansubs. And I'm sure someone will want anime too. What's the problem with that? If you don't like it, filter it out.


Go to baka-updates for anime.

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» LAucian on June 15th, 2015, 8:02am

Please, please do not remove novels and webtoons, this is the only way to know when they're updated and if something new has been translated. A simple fix would be to add a Genre group for novels and webtoons, that way people that don't want to view them can simply filter them out. Again please do not do this.

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» hamzah555 on June 15th, 2015, 8:17am

100% agree. This is mangaupdates for fucks sake.

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» cclark777 on June 15th, 2015, 9:20am

I both agree and don't agree. First ya I can see not adding any new LN or WN to the site without it having a manga related to it but I don't think that the already existing LN and WN should be removed. That would be the best way to please everyone I think but that is just my opinion.

Also for those who said remove everything but manga that includes SAO, Log Horizon, Slayers, Full Metal Panic, High School DxD and a bunch more that I don't feel like listing.

As for webcomics I can't stand reading them since they are like 4 koma which I also can't stand to read.

As for the Doujin, that can be removed in my opinion since it is all ether rape or yaoi my two most hated categories.

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» crazyboutcute on June 15th, 2015, 9:03pm

Quote
As for webcomics I can't stand reading them since they are like 4 koma which I also can't stand to read.


You... haven't read many (any?) webcomics, have you? At the least, you've definitely never read any webtoons.

Quote
As for the Doujin, that can be removed in my opinion since it is all ether rape or yaoi my two most hated categories.


This just in: cclark777 does not like rape or yaoi! Therefore, any material containing elements of rape and/or yaoi should be removed so as not to interfere with his/her MU experience!

Do you even realize how moronic that sounds? This is a discussion on how to better streamline the site, not to censor Things I Don't Like (TM). Plenty of people enjoy reading stories with rape and/or yaoi in them, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

As to the actual discussion, I agree with the suggestion of an option to filter out novels, similar to doujinshi. I personally don't care for light novels, but they are irrefutably an important part of manga culture, and removing them entirely would be highly inconvenient to those who do read and enjoy them. As for doujinshi, restricting it to published works might help ease the clutter if there is a lot of Pixiv stuff making its way in, but I don't read much doujinshi, much less track it, so I don't know how severe the issue is. And for webtoons, they absolutely MUST be kept. They are a growing industry and share many of their characteristics with traditional manhwa and manga, and I honestly can't understand why anyone would even think to remove them. I wouldn't object to drawing the line at officially published webtoons and rejecting anything from the Challenge League and similar, though.

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» cclark777 on June 15th, 2015, 9:36pm

I said in my opinion. Not that it interfered with my MU experience. Everything is fine the way it is and it doesn't need to be changed.

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» kuroneko003 on June 15th, 2015, 9:22am

I would like to see a focus on manga again. I think novels need a separate website. When I look at the series stats, and see that the list is overwhelmed by novels, this website becomes useless to me as a manga reader.

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» Indekkusu on June 15th, 2015, 9:22am

You should allow printed Light Novels to be added to the site regardless if any chapters are translated or not.

Also have Holy'bell decided yet if non Japanese mangaka who are getting published by Japanese publishers in Japanese are allowed or not?

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» cclark777 on June 15th, 2015, 9:30am

The guy who does Freezing is not Japanese

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» Indekkusu on June 15th, 2015, 9:51am

Yet this manga isn't allowed to be added.

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» residentgrigo on June 15th, 2015, 9:42am

lambchopsil´s linked Doujinshi guidelines are reasonable and thought out firstly.

I also agree and welcome the decision to have novels that don´t relate to our 3 different versions of Asian comics exiled as the sites focus has been slipping away during the last 2-ish years. These aren´t "harmful" and i have no problems with all this detritus on a personal level as i use the site as a research database first and foremost but the point of mangaupdates shouldn´t be these.
The ones mentioned by calstine (~ wink ) are proper (light) novels with a real Japanese publisher behind them so I assume that these are and should be save as long as they are available in English in one way or another.

Artbooks based on printed media are and should be fine but rare anime only exceptions as Gungrave and to a lesser degree Kidou Senshi Gundam UC - Prismatic Mobiles should leave to never return.

Our rare OEL´s haven´t been mentioned but clear Bande dessinée as Freaks' Squeele or regular American comics as Avatar: The Last Airbender - The Promise shouldn´t stay either but American manga (for a lack of a better term) as Twilight (KIM Young) or Interview with the Vampire: Claudia's Story make sense to me due to the form factor and the publishers involved.

@The admins: Webtoons need to be considered with the utmost of care as this is where the wind is blowing due to the slipping state of tghe printing market. Especially Korea has been a pioneer in a way few others countries are and first run manga or even collected volumes have increased exponentially on this front during the last few years.
holy`bell explained to me once that i should only submit webmanga that are backed by a popper web presence of a real publisher and thus refused the admittance of the self published The Penisman by ISHIDA Sui amongst others despite the responsible name.
That notion is logical and has my full support as it is very easy to set up a word document or excel sheet to keep count at home.

The site was and will lastly never be run by a majority vote and a functioning database can´t be. I also have and will have divergent opinions with the officials of MU and that is fine but this site is very well run overall and i thank everyone involved for their hard work and 100% believe that this trimming of fat and refocusing on the original goal of MU is a healthy way into the future and a plus for the manga scanlation scene. Thank you for your time.

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» Shibiusa on June 15th, 2015, 9:48am

I would also advise to keep webtoons, even if you create a category for them instead of adding them to manhwa. There are too many wonderful korean webtoons, that aren't published for some reason (being on Naver doesn't mean it's published. Which is sad), and it would be a great loss to lose track of them. I love MU for being able to keep track of my manga/manhua/manhwa (and webtoons included)!
Keep in mind that not everyone has money to invest in proper paper publishing nowadays and that doesn't make them less of an author.

I can't believe there are that many people discriminating manhwa and manhua just because they are not called manga. They are eastern comics, they share some traits and that's good enough for me to keep them here. If you don't like them, just don't read them... I hope you are being sarcastic, honestly.

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» 24/7 on June 15th, 2015, 9:49am

Hey there,

I think that it would be detrimental to the community and the side in general to just delete everything besides manga. I myself am but a lurker and cannot understand how much work it is to manage everything but I, and the majority of people I know who visit this site read manga, novels and sometimes doujinshi. The current side allows diversity and allows everybody to find what they like. If you shut everything but manga down it will inconvenience very many users.

Instead of deleting I would like to see a good filter system which can be applied. This way, nothing will be lost, no one will be inconvenienced and instead of removing, a bonus feature will be created which makes people happy. Users who read everything can still see novels and doujinshi and will not be disappointed and for the ones who want to focus on manga they can simply select "manga only". It should also not be that much more work in comparison to deleting, because instead of deleting you just tag them as novels.

Thank you very much for considering our opinions.

Cheers
24/7

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» cranon on June 15th, 2015, 10:18am

A poll with the options the admins are considering would probably solve this.

Just a warning, people. Now would be a GREAT time to save any lists you may have, since some series are threatened to be taken out.

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» cclark777 on June 15th, 2015, 10:48am

Ok I just looked up the number of series listed on this site and it came up around 109,450. Now out of that only 734 are novels, 118 are art books, 18,072 are doujin, 87,986 are Manga, 7 are drama CD, 1,682 are Manhwa, 631 are Manhua, and 252 are OEL. from what I can see the biggest problem is doujinshi based off of numbers.

Also if you do go with getting rid of 21,496 series give us a heads up on the day it will be done so we can record the things we are reading and who is translating them. Thanks

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» TundraDweller on June 15th, 2015, 4:01pm

Couldn't agree more.

I use MU for two things, mainly. The primary use is discovering new stuff to read. As for updates on my follows, Batoto and WordPress takes care of 80% of that part. Throttling the scope of the content available for the sake of purity would marginalize a considerable part of the community and their reading experiences. MU is really convenient as it is, and adding simple filters would increase the degree of convenience and user-friendliness. Not a few people read both manga and novels. And it is clear that in the coming days the interest in and support for novels would only continue to increase. MU doesn't need to feel threatened, but rather look forward to the future. Novels are not "invading" the community.

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» anonuser222 on June 15th, 2015, 10:54am

Please keep novels (or at least spin off MU so there can be a dedicated site for novels) since this place is the only dependable aggregation of release news (as well as simple) that can be sorted by genre as well as picking up new novels based on whatever plot synopsis is provided.

Another suggestion would be to allow users to check off what releases they want to see on their User CP (Doujin, Manga, Manhua, Novels, Other, etc.) so that nobody has to step on anyone else's toes.

All I can say is that without MU, I wouldn't have been able to pick up even a fraction of the novels I currently read. Yes, this is a fresh account, but I don't feel comfortable using my actual account to make a post.

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» Archer61 on June 15th, 2015, 10:59am

I'd like it if we could somehow keep both manga and novels and having a separate category for each different type of genre(manga, novel, manhua, etc) as it's become apparent that many people use the site now for both manga and novel.

As this site had existed for the purpose of informing the reader when the translator had updated a chapter for a manga, novel, etc series and because all translators use this site, no other site had been created for novels or any other form of media(as far as I know) for the convenience of informing when a series had been updated and a way to keep track of how far a reader was into a title.

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» mikako17 on June 15th, 2015, 11:19am

Just adding my bit here. I completely agree with the proposed policy changes since this is an Asian comics site and novels, especially web ones that are not backed by publishers, don't really belong here in my opinion.

As for webtoon/comics, I agree with what residentgrigo and others have said about it. Comics, especially ones in South Korea, are moving more to the web and since I believe that site is first and foremost a site dedicated to Asian comics, allowing webtoons/comics that aren't self-published here would be the best way to go. Personally, I use I different site for self published webcomics.

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» silver and blue on June 15th, 2015, 11:28am

you should keep the novels, it's very convenient to be able to search them. but on the other hand it's annoying to find them among other manga. so some way to keep them separate would be best i think. confused

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» Dumber on June 15th, 2015, 1:34pm

isn't better to enhance the filtering and make it more user friendly (it's already good but some people don't really care about it yet because either they don't know or they'r too lazy to apply the filter mmm... bigrazz

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» xgemina on June 15th, 2015, 3:24pm

I would prefer that novels (LN and WN) were kept with an optional filter as not to offend the manga purists.

I don't really care about the doujins as exhentai is really the place you want to go to see if anything new is out.

That being said, it basically sounds like BU wants to go back to being niche instead of being a convenient one stop place to find information.

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» Cthylla on June 15th, 2015, 3:47pm

These changes don't make a whole lot of sense.

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» thischinksays on June 15th, 2015, 3:56pm

I understand why this needs to be done, since MU is primarily a manga site, but maybe there's a more elegant solution?

I still read manga, manhwa, manhua, and web comics, but I've also branched out into light novels and web novels.

It was great having one site for everything.

Ultimately, it's up to you guys and what you think is best for the site. If this change comes into effect, I'll simply have to find an update site for translated foreign novels.

It's not like I'll stop using MU. You guys still have one of the best search systems in place, after all.

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» Chaoskitty on June 15th, 2015, 4:11pm

I agree with the doujinshi. There has been a lot of heat from the pixiv community about people translating their stuff. It's not like we're taking stuff from big publishers, these are random peeps just drawing things for fun. It's pretty damn rude of scanlators to be snatching them.

As for Novels. I would like to keep those around. They are pretty closely related to manga and light novels tend to come with a fair share of comics and images.

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» sillyblob on June 15th, 2015, 4:13pm

regarding novels:
I like getting updates about them, and the only place I get that is here.
Clearly, novels and graphic-novels are 2 different things so I can understand why there might be a move to not have them on this site, however I really appreciate having them here.
If they are to be rejected in the future, would it be possible to have a subsection of the site dedicated to novels? like in the menu on the right beneath the manga search, possibly in the same style as the Baka-Updates tab.

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» AquarianDemocrat on June 15th, 2015, 4:26pm

Eh, I disagree with the second change. There is really no other site for compiling novels. Instead of going searching 15 different sites if I'm trying to find a novel, I just come here. Kinda sad that's changing. :/

(Note that this is not true for doujinshi.)

Have you thought about launching novelupdates.com? wink

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» jgrey on June 15th, 2015, 6:00pm

I'm somewhat conflicted about the change to web/light novels. dead

While the change might encourage some replacement for tracking LN updates, A LOT of people are using B-U to track new releases and their favorite novels, and this change would pretty much destroy their main source for organization. cry

I know B-U has historically been about manga, but I just don't really see a reason why it can't incorporate web novels when it already has light novels in the database. No harm in adapting to the times that I can see.

But if the admins want some physical evidence that users dislike seeing novels mixed with manga updates, you could always put up a poll.

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» auriga on June 15th, 2015, 6:37pm

Quote
I just don't really see a reason why it can't incorporate web novels when it already has light novels in the database.


As I mentioned in a previous comment, webnovels are a grey area in that anyone can make one. Light novels are fine because you can trace them back to publishers, but I guess that isn't always the case with webnovels. You will probably argue that this makes them no different from doujinshi, but with the proposed changes to how doujinshi are treated it still will not be considered by MU.

In other words, MU is just trying to be consistent (and therefore fair) in how it treats all submitted media.

Long story short: if the webnovel in question can be 1) traced back to a publisher or 2) published and sold as a doujinshi it will most probably not be affected by this move. But if said webnovel just appears in some personal site it's gone. Same thing with doujinshi/webmanga.

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» eyeshield777 on June 15th, 2015, 6:39pm

Keep novels but add filters so you can exclude them if you don't want it. Keep webtoons too cause I still feel it kinda falls into manwha.

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» hahhah42 on June 15th, 2015, 6:54pm

Quote from lambchopsil
Please note that the MU definition of doujinshi is a derived work of an actual series. Original works are considered oneshots. There is no such thing as an "original doujinshi" on MU. This distinction has existed here for many years, so this last point is not a change in policy.

Just to clarify - would the new restrictions on what constitutes an acceptable doujin be applied to self-published, original works as well?

In other words, would releases from a self-published, original comic that is freely available online be approved?

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» In Valen`s Name on June 15th, 2015, 6:58pm

In regards to the proposed policy changes, I'm strongly against the de-listing of novels, folks.

In the case of doujinshi, I don't read them so can't comment on them so much (a lot of them are hentai and should belong in their own genre section anyway, just like there's already separate web listings for releases of anime series that Baka-Updates also moderates - see link: http://www.baka-updates.com/releases.php ).*I love the anime listings, by the way: I'm glad baka-updates still reports on the latest anime releases, since after the SubWire folded, there's nothing else quite like it. (Another reason to put doujinshi, or at least hentai titles, in their own section: do you honestly want ordinary readers to come to baka-updates and see a disturbing hentai title like 'Private Rape School,' for example? It makes all the regular manga titles look bad just by association, at least to innocent public eyes. That's why I think this category needs its own [red-lit] space, heh. I recall that the old Lurk IRC channel did something similar, putting it behind a web portal link called 'Innocence Lost' or some such.)

With regard to novels, which I've become a fan of recently, I note that many manga in the past are derived from them anyway, so no one can say that novels don't have a relation here. Also, having novels listed is just as crucial to the fun and utility of this place as manga, manhwa and webtoons are. With regard to traditional content, I note that a lot of scanlation groups have gone bust in recent years and there are fewer and fewer quality titles available to be read now, even though the series may be left unfinished (there are too many of these to count already). I guess all the original scanlators have graduated school and gotten real jobs now, maybe that's why. Because of that, with the recent popular influx of more novels lately, maybe it seems like novels are drowning the rest out, but I think that's only because traditional manga titles are becoming fewer and fewer (or am I wrong?). It's sad and frustrating but I'm definitely seeing such a trend. I'm glad that webtoons (mostly Korean right now) are starting to make real inroads in this space as a partial replacement, and the quality of many of these titles are high (*see The Gamer, Song of the Cloud, Orange Marmalade, for examples of this). In my opinion both webtoons and novels are providing a welcome alternative for all the readers to enjoy even if there aren't as many traditional manga titles to read now. Thanks to webtoons and novels there's more life to the website than there would otherwise be, I think.

In the case of novels (my particular focus here), they definitely have their place and should be honored as such. How to filter out 'amateur novels' from the quality, professionally-supported novels is an issue, of course. I guess by researching/keeping track of pro novel publishers (both online and print organizations), that's the best way to do this so that the quality of the novels can remain good for everyone without also reporting the junk. (Just so long as great titles like the ones I've listed below in this post won't get left out and ignored, that would be far too tragic.)

With novels generally, if it annoys the traditional-minded minders of this website, they could simply create an alternative section (a sub-page) listing like there already is for anime, then we'll still be able to keep up with the newest releases of both manga and novels and no one can complain, can they? And a third for doujinshi too if you like. (The archive listings in baka-updates are also valuable for both manga and novels, that's why having baka-updates listing the novels here too is needed. No one else is providing such a service, right?)

The owners/moderators of this website should be trying to make this website more fun and useful to its fans, not less. Over the past five months, I've discovered the following great novel titles thanks to the baka-updates website: (K=Korean ; J=Japanese; C=Chinese)
- Ark (K-novel) *****
- Death March (J-novel) ****
- Konjiki no Wordmaster (J-novel) *****
- Douluo Dalu / Combat Continent (C-novel) ***
- Rakuin no Monshou (J-novel) ****
- Risou no Himo Seikatsu (J-novel) ****
- Knights and Magic (J-novel) ***
- Overlord (J-novel) ***
- Mushoku Tensei (J-novel) ****
- Zhan Long (C-novel) ***
- Altina the Sword Princess (J-novel) ***
- Log Horizon (J-novel) *** (also an anime already)
- Isekai Mahou wa Okureteru (J-novel) ****
- B Group no Shounen (J-novel) *** (so far)
- Kenja no Mago (J-novel) ***
- Magic, Mechanics, Shuraba (C-novel) *** (so far)
- Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei (J-novel) **** (also an awesome anime already)
- Close Combat Mage (C-novel) *** (so far)
- World Teacher (J-novel) **** (so far)
- Yuusha Party no Kawaii Ko ga Ita no de, Kokuhaku Shite (J-novel) ****
- Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari (J-novel) ****
- Hachinan tte, Sore wa nai Deshou (J-novel) ***

All of these titles are pretty great in my opinion, even if the translations for some of them still suck a bit. Also, even though a lot of the newer novel titles seem to involve the same theme of someone being kidnapped/summoned/reincarnated into an alternative fantasy world (with RPG elements, heh), that doesn't mean the stories in question are boring. Far from it. A lot of them are engrossing and leaving you begging for more.

So don't make it hard for us readers to find these interesting titles, I implore you, that would make things a lot less fun for everyone. And a fun read is the whole point of having Baka-Updates here at all, isn't it? Otherwise why have we kept coming here every day for so many years? Just to admire the fonts? cool

UPDATE: In the case of doujinshi, as some commenters have just suggested to me, maybe I'm being too rude to them, but I'm nothing if not fair. Their own listings within baka-updates would also work (on a sub-page), even if I have no personal interest in them. (Their quality and scope is usually inferior to both manga and novels, however, so I see them as third tier titles at best. That's just my bias, however, so I shouldn't talk about them any more than this.)

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» auriga on June 15th, 2015, 7:13pm

Quote
In regards to the proposed policy changes, I'm strongly against the de-listing of novels, folks.

Not all are getting the axe. It's clear from your post that you did not understand the announcement.

Quote
In the case of doujinshi, I don't read them so I don't care

You should actually care because what MU is proposing to do to doujinshi is exactly the same as what it is proposing to do to (web)novels. For you to say that it's okay with doujinshi but not with novels is - I'm sorry - hypocritical.

Quote
If it annoys the traditional-minded minders of this website, they could simply create an alternative web page listing like there already is for anime

Then why shouldn't the progressives be the ones to create their own site?

I'm neither traditional nor progressive (and I think it's stupid for anyone here to categorise members as such), but this proposal of yours is just hilarious and self-serving.

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» auriga on June 15th, 2015, 9:44pm

Just to clarify, I actually agree with the proposed changes to doujinshi. It's just less confusing that way.

... Which is why I agree that the same policy be applied to novels (and other media on MU). It's only fair.

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» nakie08 on June 15th, 2015, 8:02pm

I think you should give filtering manga/novels a try first before scrapping anything. There is indeed a huge increase in novels lately but that just shows that novels are getting more and more important and popular to readers. It would be a rash response to delete them just because the site is called "manga"updates. So yeah, I think it's time MU tries to integrate novels.

As for doujins, I have no idea so no comment.

Also, this would be a very good subject for a poll.

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» auriga on June 15th, 2015, 8:18pm

Again, novels aren't getting scrapped. What would likely get scrapped are webnovels that can't be traced to publishers.

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» In Valen`s Name on June 15th, 2015, 8:32pm

If that's so, then that would relieve me greatly, yes.

When talking about webnovels that are 'not traced to professional publishers' (whether print or online organizations), are we talking about some total amateurs who may have merely posted their own unedited, unreviewed novel on their personal blog or something? Or are we talking about something else? Maybe some clarity would help here.

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» auriga on June 15th, 2015, 9:26pm

Quote
When talking about webnovels that are 'not traced to professional publishers' (whether print or online organizations), are we talking about some total amateurs who may have merely posted their own unedited, unreviewed novel on their personal blog or something?


That's pretty much how I see it. If those works are allowed then even fanfiction should be allowed.

But of course, I'm hoping my understanding of the situation is correct and in line with the admins'.

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» nakie08 on June 15th, 2015, 9:32pm

It's pretty clear from the OP though that this purge is not about quality control, but about keeping MU a manga centric site.

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» auriga on June 15th, 2015, 9:38pm

Why a specific reference to webnovels, then?

Also, as a regular reader of doujinshi I can tell you that the proposed policy changes to doujinshi are exactly the ones for novels. MU simply wants to be consistent and fair with how it handles all media.

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» nakie08 on June 15th, 2015, 9:45pm

No, read the OP again. It says "We will only be accepting novels that are directly related to existing manga, manhwa, or manhua (according to MU)".

By that definition, even an LN, which ofcourse would have been quality checked by a professional editor, would be taken down if it doesn't have a manga adaptation.

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» auriga on June 15th, 2015, 10:39pm

I know. It also says "pending comments" and "feedback is welcome." wink

I guess the point I'm making is that users can make a very strong case for LNs (regardless of adaptation) and other similar novels. Almost a hundred comments in and only very few have pointed this out.

At the end of the day, though, I couldn't care less if the admins push through with these policies unamended. The fact remains that Manga-Updates is a free and non-essential service (and it is MANGA-Updates); that we are being asked for our opinions is already a big deal, and I am very disappointed that a lot of users are not handling the situation rationally.

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» nakie08 on June 16th, 2015, 12:49am

Right. That's what I was doing, giving feedback. I am of the opinion that taking down novels(which is essentially what will happen, even if they will be keeping some) is a rash move and that they should try the filtering option first. After all, this shouldn't be an issue of keeping MU a manga-centric site, it was brought about by the inconvenience of the influx of novels cluttering up the release page. Why shouldn't we try sorting up stuff a bit first before throwing things away? This way everybody should be happy(except those who hate novels).

And giving comments(heated or otherwise) is not irrational specially since they themselves are expressly asking us to do so. We all realise that MU is a free site and we are all grateful. Expressing our opinion on how it should be improved is a sign that we are.

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» nakie08 on June 15th, 2015, 9:11pm

It only says that if it has a manga adaptation it won't be taken down. So most Chinese and Korean novels would be out. Only some Japanese (and very few Chinese/Korean) novels would survive. Even LN's are included in this, those that don't have Manga adaptation. So yes, not all novels would be taken down, just most of them.

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» auriga on June 15th, 2015, 9:33pm

I'm guessing (and - believe me - hoping) that the admins will eventually relent and allow those to stay. The way I see it, the purpose of this move is to eliminate possible "grey area" in the definition of a "novel" (or "doujinshi"). The light novel category is very specific and not open to other definitions unlike those that can only be accessed online.

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» GhostWriter on June 15th, 2015, 8:41pm

I agree with you about the need to change things to preserve a certain quality standard. And it's true, everyone and their mom can publish web novels and doujins of varying quality nowadays. In only allowing those officially published/sold on MU we can uphold these principles. But we can't deny the fact that specifically web novels are very popular in Japan/Korea/China, and that by listing them on MU so far we helped spread that popularity in the English speaking community. We shouldn't just abandon that by changing policies now; if anything, I'd prefer that we keep it the way it is. After all only here can you keep track of releases, aho-updates being only a fancy rss feed aggregator. It would be a big blow. Adding filter options would be preferable.

MU has been here for a long time to help us pursue (one of) our interests, but now its users and their interests have changed. This has always been a community site, and I hope it will continue to be. I know that this change would benefit the quality standards we set for ourselves, but at what cost? In my opinion, it's the difference between technology adapting to our needs and us adapting to our technology.

Just some food for thought: What if a novel without relation to manga/manhwa/manhua gained popularity and got a manga adaption, possibly even one we purged from MU? Wouldn't it have to be readded then? Would that be worth the hassle?

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» kevmasterzoc on June 15th, 2015, 8:55pm

Seeing how baka-updates currently have 2 websites, one for anime and one for manga, how about making a third one for light novels and web novels seeing how popular they are getting.

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» In Valen`s Name on June 15th, 2015, 9:06pm

Yeah, it made the same point in my post already. Though I wonder if that increases the rate the owners of Baka-Updates have to pay per webpage being hosted. I hope not.

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» Chandalen on June 15th, 2015, 10:12pm

This sounds terrible. I concur with making it a genre to filter.

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» Necrophades on June 15th, 2015, 11:49pm

please don't remove existing / reject upcoming novels, be it LN or WN... sad
I'm supporting the genre filter idea for these category

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» naeddyr on June 16th, 2015, 12:25am

If you end up removing webnovels and keeping published LNs, what about when a WN gets published as an LN, but the translations we get in English are based on the WNs?

At least in that case you could let us keep the WNs, and add WNs with translations if they get an LN.

But I'd still prefer if you left all novels, webnovels and light novels alike. There is already a huge hurdle for both of them--that someone starts to translate them! There's so much overlap between WNs an LNs as it is that only difference from our perspective really is just whether you have deadtree version; both kinds get translated, after all.

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» licorice on June 16th, 2015, 6:02am

I have to say... thank goodness! So tired of all the amount of backtracking done for these web novels people keep submitting for release. And I agree with everything. Pixiv is self-published, not officially, so those doujins should not be accepted. Same goes with WEB novels. Too many readers are jumping the gun about the novel bit because it's the only word they're focusing on: novel. MU is supposed to be manga-related and somewhere along the way we lost that through the ridiculous influx of novels over the last year. As for webtoons, we've been allowing that for years so I would treat them as we have the majority in the database: if they're hosted on the popular sites like Naver, etc then they should continue to be allowed.

Artbooks... depends. If they're related to previous work, they should be allowed since they ARE manga/manhua/manwha related.

People are understandably upset, but they need to be reasonable and understand: manga-related content is why this website was started in the first place. The web novel thing has just gotten out of hand. If it's not manga-related, it shouldn't be here. Simple as that.

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» blake77 on June 16th, 2015, 9:17am

You do realize that many LN can trace their roots to WN. The criteria that they are planning to use " We will only be accepting novels that are directly related to existing manga, manhwa, or manhua (according to MU)" means that many novels will be removed. I think the criteria that they should use on whether to accept a novel:-

1) Has actually been published

or

2) Is posted on a major site (for instance http://syosetu.com/) and is complete or at least has regular updates

or

3) Is posted by an author with published work.

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» cclark777 on June 16th, 2015, 7:20am

How about keeping what is listed now and not accepting new stuff? That way the people who are tracking ln/wn on this site won't be screwed over by having it removed and the ones that want to go back to pure manga/manga related stuff will be happy since the number of non-manga related stuff will not increase. This is the best compromise that I can think up for the LN/WN as for the Doujinshi I will leave it up to someone else to try and think up a compromise since I don't read or understand it. As for web comics, based off of TKS's post they are not a problem.

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» licorice on June 16th, 2015, 7:44am

I can agree to this. Keep what's already here and block what has yet to come. A fair compromise.

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» train93 on June 16th, 2015, 7:30am

This increase of novels in the "releases" section bothers me as well, since I'm not interested in them, but.... why not just filter them? Why not implement a "Type" filter? It would work for novels, manga, manhwa, manhua, webtoons, doujinshi, oneshots. This way the people that like them will keep following them, and the people that don't won't see them ever again. It's a win-win situation.

But I support the narrowing of doujinshi accepted to the site.

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» ImmLff on June 16th, 2015, 8:20am

First, I would want to clarify few things.
1) Since you said that only derivative works are considered doujinshi here, does that mean that your proposed rules change will not affect so-called "original doujins"?

2) Announcement does not make it clear if proposed rules change will apply to all novels or only web novels. Do you intend to limit all novels or only a subtype of them?

3) Do you intend to remove any of the previously present information/entries from the database, or only reject the newly added ones?

But anyhow, I don't understand why you would want to remove/limit useful information when it is relevant to interests of significant part of your userbase. You would just lose part of your followers and gain nothing in return.
If it's an issues of not having enough people to sort and monitor new entries and change requests, then you should recruit additional staff from long-time Updaters, rather than narrow scope of the site.

All in all, I agree with this comment:
Quote from RebeccaMiyamoto
I strongly disagree with simply dumping everything that you've found undesirable. The very fact that they're being listed here is due to there being no decent alternative.

This is a problem which is easily solved with user filters and categorisation, I implore you to do that instead.

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» Yousuke on June 16th, 2015, 9:26am

Is this up for debate? Is it worth the time to try and change your mind?

I would very much prefer if the novels stayed. I realize they increase the workload for our mods in the long run, especially with some translators dumping 4 to 5 chapters a day. However it's still manageable IMO. If at all necessary you could get more trustworthy mods. With the premise of otherwise removing novels there should be enough volunteers.

Doujinshi on the other hand.. It would be great it they stayed ofcourse. Frankly though, I don't see a need to track updates for them. They're basically standalone shorts. And thus are even more tedious to save and check in this database. If possible doujinshi should have a somewhat separate existence on this site. For example without creating new series entries and solely managed by updaters themselves.

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