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New Poll - Scanlator vs. Reader
This week's poll was suggested by mlemaudit. You a scanlator? I used to be...

You can submit poll ideas here
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903

Previous Poll Results:
Question: The glass is
Choices:
Half empty - votes: 1029 (47.1%)
Half full - votes: 1157 (52.9%)
There were 2186 total votes.
The poll ended: November 11th, 2023 6:32pm PST

We did the same poll back in 2010, and the results are pretty similar both times
Posted by lambchopsil on 
November 11th 6:35pm
Comments ( 23 )  
[ View ]  [ Add ]

Comments (limited to first 100 replies)

» NepetaCataria21 on November 11th, 2023, 7:28pm

I always wanted to be part of a scanlation team but I'm not sure if I have the skills to help, I draw in digital but I don't have much experience on drawing manga style 😒. Also english isn't my first language so I'm not sure of being helpful on the translation part πŸ˜…

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» Trimutius on November 11th, 2023, 7:46pm

I did help with scanlation like 10 years ago, but now I am just reader...

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» HikaruYami on November 11th, 2023, 8:04pm

I feel like the people who answered "neither" and at least half the ones who answered "just scanlator" are trolls

Like yeah, there are a decent number of fluent (or outright native Japanese) translators who help with scanlations but don't need to read scans by other groups because, of course, they can just read the raws. But it's not 4% of the site.

Edit: the number of scanlators-only has been reduced to 2.3% (it was over 4% when I posted this comment originally), and that's like almost believable. The 4.8% neithers are still *almost* entirely trolls.

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» zarlan on November 11th, 2023, 10:04pm

Why would anyone be on the site, if they honestly answer "neither"?

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» Jessica_desu29 on November 12th, 2023, 7:07pm

Because they read legally and use MU for tracking and finding out information, such as the publisher, author, etc so they can purchase it. That's what I do. A lot of entries, especially manhwas/webtoons, have links to the official translations. It's very helpful.

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» zarlan on November 13th, 2023, 11:57am

Quote from Jessica_desu29
Because they read legall

Obviously you should buy the manga you read, as much as you are able to, so I get buying manga, after reading scanlations ...but not bothering to read anything, until it gets a commercially released translation? Not reading anything, that doesn't get licensed?
And I get buying raw manga, sure, but...
Buying commercially translated manga?

So you prefer to read the worst of translations?
Translations, were the aim isn't to provide a faithful translation, that reflects what is said in the original, but where it is, instead, full of intentional changes, censorship, bits that are completely skipped, and the the like. (and this applies to more than just the text)
...and often done by quite pathetically unskilled translators, as the companies tend to not give a damn, about translation quality. (really bad scanlators, can be worse than the average professional translators, and the worst scanlators are worse than bad professional translators, but... outside of obscure series, you tend to be able to find a scanlation that is more skilled than the average pro translators. Is the average scanlator less skilled than pros? Yes, because there are very many really bad, and atrocious, scanlators ...but that is irrelevant. You can typically either find a better translator ...or it's a series that wouldn't have any other translation, if not for that terrible scanlator)
Though, of course, a scanlation with mediocre/bad skill, is far superior to a highly skilled pro translation
...as the former tries to translate, cannot be trusted to not change things.

Though professional translation, tend to always have proper and natural English, which isn't always the case with scanlations ...but that usually doesn't tend to cause any significant problems, in understanding what is said. It does, however, tend to give some hint, to the original Japanese, which is a bonus.

All I've stated, above, in regards to scanlations vs commercially translated manga, is of course equally (or maybe more) true of fansubs vs commercially translated anime.

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» Jessica_desu29 on November 13th, 2023, 5:26pm

You may make some interesting points(opinions?) about translation quality, but all your concerns are from a reader perspective. Will the reader get an accurate rendering of the original content? Should a reader have to buy allegedly inferior commercially licensed comics?
A reader's ultimate satisfaction...

But what about the creator?

This question is rarely, if ever, considered by most readers of scans/users of reader sites. How can a creator make money if people choose to read, either through scans or uploading officials on reader sites, for free? They can't.
I'd say over 90% of these types of readers don't buy a thing, not even a single book or worse, a single digital chapter. So, the net effect is the creator does not see a single red cent coming from all these readers from all over the world who are enjoying their work.

And that's extremely foul, in my opinion. It lacks empathy. These artists and writers don't work for free. This is their job. They oftentimes struggle with their health because of the strict deadlines of serialization. Why should they go through all of this just to have people reading it and not giving them proper compensation?

And it should be said that most creators, from Japan and especially those from Korea, are pretty explicit about not translating their works illegally. They do not want it. Why not respect their wishes if you like their work?

All of this is even more salient with respect to small or unknown creators. They depend on the license to generate income. So what happens if people decide to not pay for the English licensed translation and instead either read it illegally or read a scanlation? They get nothing in return.
I remember a famous BL mangaka said she doesn't care about scans because she would read them, too. Her comments were rightfully condemned. Why? Because it's easy for someone with many overseas print contracts, followers on social media, and well known books to be properly compensated. That's incredibly less true for the small creators with no name recognition.

I read BL, and I'm incredibly envious of the amount and diversity of manga licensed in France. They say French publishers don't have to compete with illegal translations so they can license almost anything and see a return in their investment. It's less risky. While I'm sure there are finer points as to why their market is so large, I can't help but see truth in that explanation. Because there are TONS of unofficial
English translations. And most readers want free, which sucks. If only they'd buy the raws every time they read something... but most will not.

And I ask: How much comics do you have to read? There's more than enough content to read legally, especially with Korean webtoons, that I don't feel the need to read scans. I still have 600 comics on my old "to read" list on Mangadex, sitting there gathering dust. There's no way I will get through them with everything going on with my life. I barely have time to read all my updates on Lezhin, Tappytoon, Tapas, and all the manga I've favorited on Manga Planet! Not to mention stacks and stacks of physical manga on my shelf!

Anyway... you can have your opinion about whether or not professional translations are inferior to scans. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I'll continue to wait on official translations (which are better to me) because my support of them supports the author and hopefully encourages more licenses.

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» zarlan on November 14th, 2023, 10:34pm

Quote from Jessica_desu29
How can a creator make money if people choose to read, either through scans or uploading officials on reader sites, for free?

...
First of all, how does people BUYING THE UNTRANSLATED MANGA, harm the mangaka?
You don't exactly make a good case, for yourself, when you start of, on a foundation of completely misrepresenting what I said.
Dishonesty doesn't make you look good, or sound convincing.

Secondly, there is ZERO evidence, that pirate copying, has ever had any negative effect, on the income of any mangaka/artist/musician/author/whatever.
Not with anime/manga, movies, TV shows, music...
On the contrary!
Pirating music is know to have increased music sales, as people got exposed to more music, that they'd like!
Legal streaming, on the other hand, has had a massive negative impact, as artists only get a very tiny proportion of the income. This was true with vinyl and CD's too. Artists made almost no income, from CD sales (just living on concerts), with all the money going to the record label ...and they get a far smaller proportion, from streaming.
None of that, however, is the fault of customers. It's purely the fault of record labels and streaming companies.

...but to get back to manga!
I present these scenarios, of what happens if people read scans vs them not doing so, and ask how any of them, cause any harm, or lack of income, for the creator:
1. A person first reads scanlations of the manga, and then, at a later date, buys it.
VS
Buys the manga, and reads it.
2. A person first reads scanlations of the manga, and then, at a later date, buys it.
VS
doesn't buy it, because they don't know about it, or don't realise they'd like it.
3. A person first reads scanlations of the manga, and then doesn't buy it, because their budget won't allow it.
VS
Doesn't buy or read it, because their budget won't allow it. (if they're even aware of it, or realise they'd like it)

How does scans have any negative effect, for the mangaka, in any of those scenarios?
How does scans not benefit the mangaka, in scenario 2?
Quote
I'd say over 90% of these types of readers don't buy a thing

Nonsense!

Though if there is any tendency towards not buying manga, then it's because what is available to purchase, i.e. commercially "translated" manga, is utter shite.
Why would you want to give money, for an atrocious product?
Why support/encourage such abominable behaviour? (it would indicate a desire, for manga to continue being "translated", in such a fashion. For Western manga releases, to go further in that direction)

...and buying raw manga, isn't really something most would consider, as not only is it far from clear and simple to do, but most can't read any of it. Having a physical volume of incoherent gibberish, to accompany ones scanlations, feels a rather weird thing to do, for most people.

...but if they're unwilling to buy the commercial "translations", then the option would be for them to never read it, at all.
So either they don't buy it, or they don't buy it.
Either way, the mangaka gets the exact same amount!
Quote
Why should they go through all of this just to have people reading it and not giving them proper compensation?

Why should someone pay compensation, for a fundamentally broken product?
There is no justifiable reason, to pay such a "translation".
Appreciating the mangaka's work, and considering it worth paying money for, is not the same as appreciating the commercially "translated" release, or considering it worth paying a single penny, for that!

On the contrary, I wouldn't want a badly "translated" commercial release, even if you paid be to get it, and I consider it an affront to the mangaka and the original work! And also a grave insult, to any and all readers, as well as the concept of translation.
It's also fraud.
Quote
And it should be said that most creators, from Japan and especially those from Korea, are pretty explicit about not translating their works illegally.

Oh? And how much do they know about the commercial "translations" of their works? About the quality of the translations? ...and how much do they know, about the consequences of scanlations?
Nothing.
They don't know anything, about any of it!
Quote
Why not respect their wishes if you like their work?

It's not their work. It's a pathetic misrepresentation, of their work!
Quote
All of this is even more salient with respect to small or unknown creators.

Without scanlations, no one would know about small or unknown mangaka, and thus wouldn't buy any of their works.
Quote
They depend on the license to generate income.

No they don't.
The vast majority of their income, is from domestic sales.
Quote
There's more than enough content to read legally

...if you're okay with reading worthless trash.
Not only do a lot of the best stuff not get licensed, but the commercial "translations" of what does get licensed, is an abomination, that is quite different to what the mangaka actually wrote!

There's more than enough content to read legally? Yes, in the sense that I can import raw manga, but you can't expect everyone to do that.
After I've read scans of it.
Quote
you can have your opinion about whether or not professional translations are inferior to scans.

The main issue isn't the translators.
It's their bosses, who tell them to change/cut/censor stuff.
(also, the translators are often worse than scanlations, because the bosses tend to hire the worst/cheapest translators)
Unskilled scanlations are bad.
Unskilled commercial translations is terrible. (if they're gonna charge for it, they need to ensure it's good! Also, if they're gonna pay the translator... same thing there)
...but intentionally changing/censoring/cutting, and making the work something different to what it is in its original language, but selling it, claiming it to be the same as the original (just in a different language), is a lie. It is fraud.
Quote
I'll continue to wait on official translations (which are better to me)

A lot of pro translators are not at all better than me
...and I'm nowhere near good enough, to be a translator.
If you think the translations are fine... That's because you are blindly trusting the licensing companies, and have no ability to verify their translations.

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» Jessica_desu29 on November 14th, 2023, 11:57pm

Dishonesty? Okay. 😏

Buying the untranslated manga isn't bad at all. I said that. That's what you should do if you read an illegal translation and liked it. That's what I did, and at the very least, this should be a requirement for even being allowed to read a scan!


As to everything else you said... we will agree to disagree. I haven't the time nor interest to argue with anyone who defends illegal reading in any form.

Cheers.

Oh, and you have once again evidenced the very common tendency of those who read illegally to devalue to artist. They are merely the conduit to bring you entertainment. Never mind the fact that it's a privilege to read their works, not a right. Why is it only about your own comfort?

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» zarlan on November 15th, 2023, 1:17am

Quote from Jessica_desu29
Dishonesty? Okay. 😏

Where's the apology?
Quote
Buying the untranslated manga isn't bad at all. I said that.

No, you didn't. That is a lie.
Not only did you respond to my comments about buying untranslated manga, by saying that the mangaka wouldn't get any money from people who don't buy the commercial translations. (because they'd only be reading scans...), but you also made NO MENTION of untranslated manga, at all, at any point in your comment.

...oh, and I missed one bit of your previous comment:
Quote
I'll continue to wait on official translations (which are better to me) because my support of them supports the author and hopefully encourages more licenses.

Encourages more licensing, by companies that do an atrocious job of "translating".
Quote
Oh, and you have once again evidenced the very common tendency of those who read illegally to devalue to artist.

Again, you lie.
It is you, who devalue the artist, by saying that completely changing their works, is perfectly fine.
Quote
Never mind the fact that it's a privilege to read their works, not a right. Why is it only about your own comfort?

How are the artists hurt?
Unless you actually counter my arguments, on the issue, you have no right to claim that they are.
How do they not actually significantly benefit? (in the ways I've mentioned)
Unless you actually counter my arguments, on the issue, you have no right to claim that they aren't.

All of your claims, that the artist is disrespected, or financially harmed, by scans/scanlations, and/or that anything I've said, in any way devalues the artists, are complete baseless.
You provide no evidence, nor argument.
I provided plenty of arguments ...which you refuse to respond to.

Saying "we will agree to disagree" is fine, but that means that you have to end the discussion, there.
You then have no right to make any further such claims
...yet you just did exactly that, right after saying "we will agree to disagree"!
That is deeply dishonest, and disrespectful.

Put up, or shut up!
If you want to make those accusations, you first have to provide counter-arguments, against what I've said.
Until/unless you do that, your words are no more than slander and trolling.
You have no right to accuse me of disrespect, when you clearly are nothing other than disrespectful.
Quote
Why is it only about your own comfort?

I've made some defence, for readers who read scanlations
...but who are you defending, who are harmed/devalued?
As I've pointed out, you have no right to say that the mangaka are harmed/devalued.
Nor are the publishers, for the exact same reasons.
So...
Who?

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» Erratic-Hopper on November 12th, 2023, 2:42am

I'm a reader. Although occasionally I MTL something if I'm impatient and can find the raws. Mostly just leeching off everyone else's hard work. Thank you scanlators πŸ™ πŸ™ πŸ™

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» VawX on November 12th, 2023, 6:46pm

Did scanlation years ago, but not really now mmm...
But yeah, the neither option and the scanlator option are kinda weird if you're here mmm...
I never met a scanlator who doesn't read a manga, and why would you be in this site if you're neither mmm...~?

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» Jessica_desu29 on November 12th, 2023, 7:01pm

I chose neither because I buy everything I read now. But I used to devour scans and watch fansubs when I first got into (BL) manga, and I even helped scanlate a couple chapters. Now, I don't even look at scans. I just wait until it's licensed.

And MU is good for all types of readers, not just those who read everything for free via scans, haha...

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» Afiaki on November 12th, 2023, 8:31pm

A question for you Jessica, what’s the main reason you prefer to exclusively wait for series to be licensed?

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» Jessica_desu29 on November 12th, 2023, 9:25pm

Well, it's because I don't think scans are that good for the stuff I mainly read, which is Korean BL. Also, most Korean BL series are licensed fairly quickly so there is no need to read the scanlated version.

Also... it feels right to support the author by buying their work and not reading it for free. Even when i did read scans, I always bought the actual book through a legitimate Japanese retailer so the creator would get compensated for my enjoyment of the unofficial free translation. It's true that many things won't ever see a license in English, especially with Japanese BLs, but I think there's more than enough available in print and digitally (like Renta, Manga Planet/Futekiya, etc) to sate my appetite.

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» Afiaki on November 13th, 2023, 7:19am

Quote from Jessica_desu29
Well, it's because I don't think scans are that good for the stuff I mainly read, which is Korean BL. Also, most Korean BL series are licensed fairly quickly so there is no need to read the scanlated version.

Also... it feels right to support the author by buying their work and not reading it for free. Even when i did read scans, I always bought the actual book through a legitimate Japanese retailer so the creator would get compensated for my enjoyment of the unofficial free translation. It's true that many things won't ever see a license in English, especially with Japanese BLs, but I think there's more than enough available in print and digitally (like Renta, Manga Planet/Futekiya, etc) to sate my appetite.

I see, that makes sense. Thanks!

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» F_J on November 14th, 2023, 1:38pm

I use to be a typesetter. It was fun. I tried my hand at redrawing/cleaning but it was hard. I also helped quality check, english grammar/sentence structures, text size/type comments...
The only thing I didnt do was providing raws and translating.

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» zarlan on November 14th, 2023, 10:38pm

Would anime and manga ever have become as popular as it is, in the West, would there be as much sales/streams/whatever of anime and manga, for a foreign audience, if not for scanlations and fansubs?
No.
There'd hardly be a market for it, and it'd still be extremely niche.
Largely unknown, outside of Japan.

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» Afiaki on November 15th, 2023, 2:04am

Blah blah blah. No facts, no discussion, no point. Worthless commentary.

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» zarlan on November 15th, 2023, 5:50pm

Quote from Afiaki
Blah blah blah. No facts, no discussion, no point. What an absolute waste of time.

True.
Which is why I won't make any further replies, unless she stops being dishonest, acknowledges/admits the dishonesty and apologises for it, and actually addresses what I've said, beyond just pointing out that she hasn't done so.

(if, however, you're saying I am also guilty, of what you said, that I haven't backed up my claims, haven't attempted to discuss... then that would be a baseless accusation. I.e. slander. I do hope that isn't what you are doing)

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» Afiaki on November 16th, 2023, 1:29am

Lol.

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» Sugarshark on November 18th, 2023, 12:30am

back in the day
they used to 'rent' fansubbed videos 1:1 with commercial rentals
rent 1 video; get/rent 1 fansub which was usually 3-4 episodes/VHS tape
they had 100's of subs of current 'on tv' series'
that used to be the way it was; the popular shows were publicly broadcast

I did spend a lot of $ on manga and anime
but I think there's a lot less spending power for today's young consumers due to inflation
hobbies are much more difficult to rationalize nowadays; when in my day I carried 4-5 expensive hobbies and never noticed and was mostly minimum wage the whole time.

it's a tough thing that producers that need the money are in the same tight spot as the consumers
I think in this scenario everyone loses

here Christmas spending is forecast to be 60-70% lower than 2019 levels

maybe everyone should be on a subscription service
but I don't think that adequately rewards high and low quality product

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» mallika23 on November 18th, 2023, 10:57am

(A pretty hot discussion up there..)

Well, I'm pretty much a reader. I also read on official platforms now, but there are still lots of manga and manhwa on my reading list that hasn't been officially translated in my country.

It's not like I've never been interested to be a scanlator, but I have neither the language skill nor the photoshop skill to support it.

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