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New Poll - Honorifics

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Post #537912 - Reply to (#537911) by MrEngenious
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10:58 pm, Jul 2 2011
Posts: 18


I forgot to mention that I'm actually okay with honorifics being in (just slightly annoyed when I expect something better). I prefer removing them, as they set a bad precedent on the standards of translation, in my opinion. I get quite irked when publishers in the West produce shoddy results at the overwhelming demand of the "fans" and how they think the works should be.
Everything could be so much better, if only we could start breaking from the current mold we're in today.

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1:45 am, Jul 3 2011
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Personally, whenever I do translations, I'll keep them in because I started that way and I'm too lazy to change; however, excluding honorifics saves a few characters that makes text formatting so much easier and visually appealing. Still, going by the results of this poll, I guess I'll be leaving honorifics in.

Post #537914
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3:54 am, Jul 3 2011
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My inner weaboo would probably like to see honorifics, but it's not like I'd die if I don't. bigrazz

Post #537915 - Reply to (#537909) by m64
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9:55 am, Jul 3 2011
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I've been in the scanlation scene for many years and while the image quality of manga has improved considerably through better technology and software, the quality of translation has not. In the old days, good scanlation groups would never sacrifice flow and contextual understanding for artificial accuracy through honorifics. Only an amateur in translation would create a text where the reader is required to look up Japanese honorifics he / she was supposed to translate. If you can't show the relationship between two people through your own words without relying on honorifics, it just mean that you have a long way to go before becoming a decent translator.

I agree that romance, especially shojo manga series rely heavily on honorifics, but there are many ways to express those feelings subtly in proper English. If not, how have you expressed yourself all these years without Japanese honorifics?

English translation can be a tough job, especially if one specializes in seinen series with complex technical and scientific descriptions and a multitude of complexity in personal relationships and organizations. Keeping honorifics would be ridiculous and make reading a pain instead of a pleasant experience.

I urge everyone involved in translation to take the words of this professional Japanese translator into heart. Remember it, feel it, hear it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0

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2:14 pm, Jul 3 2011
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When was the last time anyone here called their older siblings big brother or big sister, much less elder brother or elder sister? Does calling someone by their first name mean a lot in english? Is there even an english equivalent for sempai?

Removing honorifics from japanese would be like cutting curses out of english slang. Sure there are alternatives but they don't get the point across the same way shit and fuck does.

Post #537917
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2:40 pm, Jul 3 2011
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When I want to read manga in English, I want to read it in just that, English.

Post #537918
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4:06 pm, Jul 3 2011
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in Asia many languages have some kind of honorifics. we don't call ours elders/seniors by just their names. i think only manga/anime which has very western feel need no honorifics. honorifics are there for expressing respect or feeling towards a person.

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5:21 pm, Jul 3 2011
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I urge everyone involved in translation to take the words of this professional Japanese translator into heart. Remember it, feel it, hear it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0

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6:41 pm, Jul 3 2011
Posts: 18


Just would like to remind anyone who's ever played a Japanese game that was translated into English...
Find any -sans? -chans? -kuns? -donos?
Did you even notice? Did you care in the slightest that they were missing in the off chance that you realized that game, being of Japanese origin, must've originally had honorifics?

The Phoenix Wright series is a brilliant example of localizing done well. We would not have known even half of the memes/references the Japanese version had, what would've been beneficial about throwing in names of people we don't even recognize (because we don't have or understand the programs that they're in)?

"The other things that didn’t transfer very well were for the most part, cultural references. For example, Morgan Fey’s style of speaking in the Japanese version is a very old style of Japanese and she has a peculiar way of addressing people. I had to figure out how to rework it so she still sounded formal, but slightly odd in English and came up with “Good sir!” as her way of addressing Phoenix."
Clearly we all know what old style Japanese sounds like, right? No? Well I'll be DAMNED.

I certainly didn't know that not understanding what the characters were saying led to a brilliant story and compelling gameplay. How wrong I've clearly been!

Again, exceptions definitely exist in some way or form, but they're not the rule.

Post #537921 - Reply to (#537920) by MrEngenious
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8:35 pm, Jul 3 2011
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Just to check, what is your stance on the use of given names as opposed to family names then? In English, outside of a formal conversation, people seldom refer to each other by their family names but in Japanese, unless one is fairly close to the person, the family name is more commonly used. Do you use mostly given names or do you make an exception and keep whatever name was in the original?

Conversely, if you were to translate English to Japanese, would you start adding/removing/changing honorifics or names?

Post #537922 - Reply to (#537920) by MrEngenious
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8:48 pm, Jul 3 2011
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Games are quite obviously different. They want to appeal to as many people as possible. Both anime and manga are still niche markets, especially scanlations and fansubs, and as such they expect people to know a bit about Japanese culture and be interested in that kind of stuff.

I agree, you don't need honorifics, especially in anime where the tone of voice conveys familiarity or whatever, but it's a matter of personal opinion and demand, not a matter of what is right and what is wrong.

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Post #537923 - Reply to (#537921) by drunkguy
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9:24 pm, Jul 3 2011
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I'd more than likely use the given name in a more informal environment and adapt to the way the West tend to change their words around different people. In Japan, people would talk to the parents of their friends like familyname-san. We wouldn't normally refer to the same people in the West using family or given names (unless given explicit permission whether through polite asking or whatnot) and so I'd think it'd be better to use "ma'am" or "sir". Attempting to say something like "Mrs. Familyname" directly to their face just doesn't really work out.
I will admit that the medium is important and that you could probably bend away from localizing by accepting the fact that the setting is in Japan. Fantasy settings allow you more room, IMO.

It's harder for me to imput myself into the position of translating from English to Japanese since I don't know a lick of how the Japanese language really works, but I'd probably take the same stance that I'm taking now: adapt to the target culture the best you can. It's heavily important in Japan for honorifics to be used and they don't quite have the same way of describing things as English can do.
I have read somewhere though, where some Westerners were raging about how Japanese subbers (or dubbers? I don't remember) of South Park had put in -sans and such when "they shouldn't have".
Many of us only know this very fine tip of the Japanese language and are ignorant about the fundamentals that it stems from. I know I don't know its fundamentals, but I know it's certainly not the same as English. English is the target language for many translations out there, and we can't keep fundamentals of the Japanese language in the translation without having to break some of English's. Some examples of that can be seen in the video linked above with fragments and incoherence in some lines from fansubs (although those are some extreme cases, I guess).

Post #537924 - Reply to (#537922) by Turbophoenix
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9:58 pm, Jul 3 2011
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Yes, it's opinion. I'm stating mine quite vehemently because I know I'm in the vast minority (lol 10%) and my voice probably won't be the one listened to because the publishers will go with the majority in order to maximize appeal (and thus potential sales).

I'd like to repeat the idea that the reason anime and manga are niche markets is BECAUSE of the honorifics and the way we're styling translations today. This I got from the video linked above (don't remember when I originally saw it, but it still remains true to this day for the most part).
In order for someone new to pick up manga/anime today, they have to memorize a page of notes telling you what -kun, -chan, -sempai/-senpai, kotatsu, keikaku, baka, and all those vocabularies we, as long time consumers, are used to, in order to understand the first few lines that they read! This should not be a hurdle new consumers need to face when they want to pick up ENTERTAINMENT. Games are entertainment, I don't find them that radically different from other forms of entertainment like movies, books, anime, other than the way they're choosing to entertain us. The hurdles typically will remain the same. I'm not saying that the hurdles are impossible to jump over (consuming more of the media/Google/talking with others can help you tackle some of them) but why are they there on the FIRST areas of consumption?
Chances are, the media will introduce words or devices that you don't quite understand the first time in order to "hook" you in (typical with many shows/anime/movies), but you're still able to follow along. Honorifics aren't hooks, they're baggage. The new consumer will have to PAUSE their reading, look up what the honorific means, and THEN continue reading.
If the setting is in Japan, fine whatever, go use honorifics and make sure the person understands "oh it's Japan, it's not going to be quite like I know my life goes." I've only seen comedies/romance make use of honorifics being important, those cases are in the single digits. I've yet to see any other genre make use of honorifics in a manner unable to be translated into English.

Before someone goes and counters me with "I showed my friend manga/anime and he/she was fine with everything!" Great, those hurdles were no match for him/her. I'm unable to properly relate to the information greedy generation of today in their ability to handle these hurdles. I started my consumption of Japan-related media through the fully localized versions from television and the library. I was slowly introduced to the honorifics system as I entered the vast world of manga/anime outside of TV/Publishers. I was already heavily interested and invested into my new hobby, learning new things would certainly be a part of it.
Could I have been here today even if I was forcibly introduced to honorifics first? Quite possibly. First manga I picked up was in the middle of the series, so I knew I wouldn't understand half the stuff I was reading. Honorifics would've been part of that stuff I would skim over, but hope to understand by reading it for a bit. Unless the publisher included notes in the back though, honorifics would never be explained, while the series vocabulary would've been addressed as the plot goes on "WE NEED THE DRAGONBALLS TO SUMMON THE DRAGON TO GRANT THIS WISH". Google's our friend today, but so is laziness.

...I'm pretty sure I just went on a long tangent of sorts, hopefully I wasn't too confusing.
TL;DR: If we want to appeal to as many people as possible with entertainment, why introduce these hurdles (honorifics)? I didn't grow up with these danglies when I was getting into manga/anime, so perhaps I'm just too old fashioned?

Post #537925 - Reply to (#537924) by MrEngenious
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10:23 pm, Jul 3 2011
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Wow, long reply. I agree with many points, disagree with a few, but what I want to focus on is this: "I'd like to repeat the idea that the reason anime and manga are niche markets is BECAUSE of the honorifics and the way we're styling translations today." It's both agree and disagree for me - agree on the manga front because official translations (depending on publisher) tend to include honorifics anyway. Disagree because official anime dubs do not. I don't own that much anime so I can't say it's like this for everything, but even Japanese voices and English subs don't include honorifics. If a beginner (let's say they are totally new to it) wanted to get into anime they'd generally rent or buy an official release, not download a fansub. And yet it's still a niche market. Can you really say that honorifics are hurting it when they aren't included?

As for being too old fashioned, I'd probably say yes. I was one of those people who was introduced to anime and manga by a friend and picked it up almost immediately with very little explanation needed, and when I did need an explanation I just used the translation notes at the back or front of the volume.

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Post #537926 - Reply to (#537925) by Turbophoenix
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11:04 pm, Jul 3 2011
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Well, guess I'm getting too old for you whippersnappers then bigrazz

"If a beginner (let's say they are totally new to it) wanted to get into anime they'd generally rent or buy an official release, not download a fansub. And yet it's still a niche market. Can you really say that honorifics are hurting it when they aren't included?"
I honestly can not. I have no evidence against or for my claims (which only further enhances the "it's only your opinion" thing) in any form. It's how I feel the way things are going though.
I focus a lot on honorifics because I feel it's one of the easiest things (and I guess more obvious in my mind?) to go (first step that leads to many more). Is it precisely the problem? No, I can't and won't say that. It's a small part of the large problem with translations today.
I mentioned in an earlier post about how I feel getting rid of honorifics is a good step towards improving translations as a whole as it's a sort of a "crutch" for translators. Instead of trying to get the nuances properly explained in English, you just use the honorific and expect the reader to get it. Well fine, many people do get it.
Well then, what's the problem? For me, it's immersion. Born, raised, and fully surrounded by the English language, no way around what my brain is used to for my entire life. I don't need the constant reminders that hey, what I'm reading is from Japan! Look at all these Japanese phrases that are used by Japanese people in a Japanese fashion! I don't really need the person to address the other with their family name and honorific when it could've easily (without loss of any sort of message) been replaced with a pronoun. I don't need transliterated garbage that serves no purpose other than for the purpose of trying to inject more Japanese in (baka, shinigami, ojou-sama, goshujin-sama, all that wonderful vocabulary).
Perhaps I'm just not seeing the whole picture quite yet. I'm still quite young (despite my older generation thoughts). I do know that many translations currently out in the scanlation/fansub world (mostly from speedscanners/speedsubbers) are garbage, you don't need a degree in Japanese to be able to tell. Perhaps seeing all of those has clouded my mind a bit about the situation of manga/anime still being a niche market in the West.

I think (again, old fashioned me) that today, the newbies to manga/anime are going to get into it more from word of mouth than from personal discovery. This will more likely lead to the unnofficial (not to mention "free") releases by the community than towards the official, commercial releases.
Quite a large percentage of groups are currently speedscanners/speedsubbers, and you can probably already garner how I feel about them. However good or bad they are, they set a precedent or expectation in the minds of the newbies, leading to some crazy things I've seen happen over the time I've spent here. One instance was where some leechers attacked on a translator in the mangafox forums over an argument over a project and the translator decided to resign. You can expect the sudden mood shift that happened after he announced that. I didn't know anyone involved, but that situation was absolutely deplorable. There's something wrong with the communities of today, and the newbies are flocking to it in order to find more series to enjoy.

Again, no proof of any sorts (and again, long ass comment lol).
Perhaps you can explain to me better than I can gather for myself how things are going on. I could easily be looking in the wrong places.

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